Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Another M70 Question. Tight Extractor

I suppose I have a sickness because I picked up another used M70 today that I had been seeing on a rack for quite a while. It is blue/wood 300 WM with a BOSS and seems to be very lightly used. The extractor is quite tight and is somewhat difficult to move around when the bolt is removed. It also offers noticeable resistance when the bolt is opened or closed. I removed the firing pin assembly to make sure the resistance had nothing do do with that. None of my other M70's has anywhere near as much resistance as does this one. Is this something that will easily wear in to become easier or is there anything I need to do to it? It is quite usable now, but I would like it a little slicker.

The rifle is serial number G92XXX. Does anyone know the year of manufacture?

My guess would be it was manufactured in around 1995-1996 as by '97 they were already in the 6 digit range, based on rifles I own.

As far as the extractor goes...get a Williams. They are easily changed, and the Williams unit is quite a desirable addition for the Classic Model 70s.

While you wait for it to arrive, remove the factory extractor and see if the extractor ring has something under it to cause this condition. Maybe the bolt is slightly oversize or needs some polishing under the extractor ring's channel.

I took off the extractor and noticed the two places that have been brightened by wear are in the collar near the extractor and on the little metal piece that is opposite the extractor and held in by the collar. Would it be unwise to put a little fine abrasive compound under these parts and work the bolt a bunch of times?

I have thought about some Williams extractors but have never before had any problems with the ones from the factory. I might have to give one or two a try.

I'm no gunsmith, but it shouldn't hurt as long as the area is cleaned thoroughly when finished.

That little piece on the left of the ring is called the gas block. These are MIM, and they are supposed to help block escaping gas in the event of a ruptured case and provide a guide point for the bolt. I've had one of them break. Of course the rifle will still function. I've had it in mind to fabricate one with a file and a piece of steel, but just never have. I'd like to see Williams machine a bunch of these gas blocks. Also, you would love the Williams extractor. Good luck to you.

It would not be wise...

The repair involves removing the extractor and enlarging the slot slightly where the collar engages the extractor.. It's a 10 minute job and you'll have a much easier working unit..

Thanks Redneck. I will give that a try.

Notropis,

The first thing I would do is to check the pinch of the extractor. With the bolt in your hand and the extractor lined up over the locking lug (this is the position it would be in when moving the bolt in the rifle to feed a round out of the magazine) slide a round up the bolt face under the extractor. The extractor should just hold the round on the bolt face. If much force is needed to get the round under the extractor then the extractor needs to be adjusted by bending the tail of the extractor away from the bolt to reduce the pressure. If you need more pressure, take the extractor of and bend the tail in.

Most likely you have too much pinch causing the extractor to be tight on the bolt.

Headache

He stated in the top post that it's difficult to move around even with the bolt removed.. Had nothing to do with a case on the boltface..

FWIW, the extractor should have only a modicum of resistence to movement when bolt's out of the receiver. 'Difficult' tends to make me look at the collar cutout first..

Redneck,

If the extractor has too much bend in the tail it will be difficult to rotate and could even hit the locking lug if over bent. Also he should check to see if he has the correct extractor for his caliber. If all this checks out then yes he should check to make sure the bolt cuts are correct.

Headache

I'm betting there's no obvious bend.. And it would be very obvious.. and then there would be some serious rub marks on the rearward exterior. Not mentioned above.. Um, no.. The guide that runs in the groove prevents that - unless somebody ground some off.. And he doesn't mention the extractor hitting any lug.. Whether he has the correct one or not, the only difference there is overall length or nose (for std, or magnum cases) and would not cause the issues he describes.. Trust me.. I've worked with literally hundreds of M70 extractors...

Hey Redneck, be careful, I'll bet if you've seen hundreds of extractors that Headache has see thousands. Forget his exalted title but he was with USRAC for many years, I believe lastly supervising design engineer or something like that, in the manufacture of Winchester rifles.

Excessive tension will indeed cause difficulty in rotating the extractor. A burr on the extractor at the lip area where it rotates in the groove around the bolt will also cause this.

Excessive tension and a groove too deep in the bolt will cause the extractor to hit the bolt lug as well.

I would remove the extractor after checking the tension as Headache described above first. If tension looked to be good, I would then polish the small lug that resides in the groove of the bolt when it is installed. Next, I would inspect and perhaps polish that same groove in the bolt itself. After that, I would polish the backside of the gas block and the groove that the spring collar rotates around in.

If none of that worked, you have more there than meets the eye and most likely a groove in the bolt that will have to be remachined to completely fix the problem. Perhaps this can be remedied with an extractor modification as well, but I would follow the above steps first.

Triggerguard, I ordered several extractors from you folks yesterday to try on this and other M70's I have. It will probably be the weekend before I get back to where my toys are so can not do much tinkering just yet. I did take off the extractor and noticed a very shiny spot on the rear of the gas block and shiny spots on the collar near where it is bent up to attach to the extractor. I don't have a case with the correct size base at hand (they are all with my stuff at home) but can easily bend up the front of the extractor with my finger. This does nothing to make it easier to move. I can wiggle the extractor a bit by pushing sideways on the rear. It pivots around the attachment to the collar. This would indicate to me that the extractor is probably not binding at the head of the bolt but rather that the tightness of the collar is the most likely problem. I will run the diagnostic tests you have all suggested when I get back to where my toys are. I have a sick inlaw who is requiring attention out of town at the moment. I certainly appreciate all the suggestions and will report back what I find.

Like I've been saying above..

This is why, at times, I hesitate to attempt to help out a fellow M70 owner on the public forum.. What I should probably do from now on is just help via pms.... People can get off on the strangest tangents...

But whatever... Notropis, I hope you get it resolved.. But if you need further guidance, just pm me and I'll do my best..

No offense, but what you're referring to as a strange tangent is information being relayed by one person who designed the extractor for the MIM process over 15 years ago for Winchester and one who makes them from machined steel for the last 7 years.

The information I provided, as well as headache, was spot on and it is exactly the procedure that I would take, if the rifle was in my posession to accurately determine all the problems it may have. Then again, I've only made about 80,000 or so...........

Information you provided for the fix is correct, if that is indeed what the problem was, but not all of the information you were relaying as fact, was indeed that.

Internet diagnosis of a problem can sometimes leave a lot of unanswered questions, but based on what you mentioned, as well as mine and headache's input, I would imagine that the poster will get it figured out.
Sometimes is doesn't hurt to keep the ego in check.

No offense taken Matt.. I personally talked with Headache yesterday and he basically agreed with what I was saying..

But whatever.... who cares.. I'm outta here..

No Redneck, keep posting your knowledge and experience here so that the rest of us can benefit from it!
I know I've learned alot from your posts and I'd hate to think that I didn't have you as a source any longer.

Keep posting here and let the naysayers be darned!

Yes, I know that.. I know that too..

Yeah, but you didn't make THAT one, from what can be determined.. You ever get one of yours back that wasn't right? Or had to replace one that didn't work or fit? I'm betting you have.. None of us are perfect...

But I try to help from an end-user standpoint along with that of the experience of hands-on diagnosis.. You and Headache are valuable help from an engineering standpoint, i.e., design and build.. And, no offense, but there are countless times when I'm working on some machines that I wish I had the engineer in my grip so I could strangle 'em for a dumbazzed design related to maintenance that could be done SO much simpler.. I'm not the only one who will tell you that many, many times, engineers would change a lot of designs if they had to use their own machines.. Sorta like computer programmers struggle with end-users.. At times, both want to strangle the other.. Hehehehe..

But I digress..

Oh, you betcha...
Practice what you preach, brother..

Look.. There's a lot of knowledge on this board.. Let's use it in positive ways instead of investing in acrimony..

I've had extractors returned to me that did not work on the rifle they were supposed to, but so far in every case, it has been the receiver, and or bolt that has been out of tolerance.
I'm not saying I haven't made bad parts, but the system that I use for making extractors ensures that those bad parts and or mistakes are caught before they leave the door. They are also manufactured in such a way that 100% of all the critical features that enable the extractor to function correctly, are machined in a single setup, ensuring the absolute tighest tolerances possible on our CNCs.

My engineering degree was issued to me by Smith River Gunsmithing, Williams Mfg. of Oregon, and Williams Firearms Company in that order. I learned first how to build rifles, determined what didn't work from the factory and then how to make parts on manual equipment. I took that knowledge, coupled with 4 years of old-school drafting and taught myself CNC, Cadd, and CAM. 99% of all the programming that I do on my machines is without the aid of a CAM program, simply because CAM limits the versatiltiy that a good programmer has when doing it on their own.
When I had a few years of this info under my belt, I was making parts for the aerospace industry to supplement a slow-growing firearms parts business. The tolerances that I held in that line of work will never be seen on firearms from a factory or otherwise, but it provided a very good opportunity to learn better ways of making parts.

One thing that I've learned over the years of doing this is that you are never too old to learn something new, regardless of the source of information, but don't be so quick to throw out what you haven't yet proved true or false.

If you'll reread my post, you'll notice that the solution you provided didn't have me correcting you, because that could be the issue. What I was correcting you on was that excessive tension could also cause the problem described, which you said "um NO" to. You also said that an extractor could not hit the lug if it was out of adjustment. That too is incorrect because it certainly can due to bad tensioning and sloppy tolerances.
With a polished or jeweled bolt, you would not see as easily the rub marks that weren't mentioned in the earlier post. All of this gets back to internet diagnosis, which many folks on here are quick to make a hard-fast determination of, but rarely have all the info at hand when doing so.

I don't think anyone on this site doesn't appreciate our help and input on some of nuances that pop up with model 70's from time to time, but getting riled up over having factual, but different information presented doesn't really do anyone any good.

The bottom line is, we all have our own pieces of information gained from our own experiences to contribute. The day we believe that our way of thinking is the only way, we will indeed be doing ourselves and our customers a huge disservice.
I listen to gunsmiths everyday and it has had a huge influence on our entire product line. Guys like you provide me with priceless information about many things regarding our products and improvements to be made, but while you're providing rifles for customers, I'm doing the same right here in my shop for myself, family members and friends.





I couldn't agree more, which is the only reason I entered this topic in the first place.

Now, I'll let you all get back to your reguarly-scheduled programming.

Why not just hone the bright spots, that is what one would do to slick up any bolt action..always use a hone, not abrasive paper or files.