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When I was young I used the 30-30 and 32 Special in Marlin leverguns quite a bit. Later I got the 336 rifle in .35 Remington and was immediately impressed by how slick it loaded and how smooth those rounds cycled through that gun. I've often wondered if the .30 and .32 Remington would've been better in those guns than the rimmed cartridges that are synonymous with levers? How important is the rim in these rifles?

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Originally Posted by moosemike
When I was young I used the 30-30 and 32 Special in Marlin leverguns quite a bit. Later I got the 336 rifle in .35 Remington and was immediately impressed by how slick it loaded and how smooth those rounds cycled through that gun. I've often wondered if the .30 and .32 Remington would've been better in those guns than the rimmed cartridges that are synonymous with levers? How important is the rim in these rifles?


The rims accomplish two objectives. The first is providing positive feeding and extraction in the Winchester designs, and the second is providing an offset of the point of the bullet off the primer of the cartridge ahead of it. The latter is less of a concern now than in years past with more of a fear of chain reaction firing and softer/thinner primers. That said, to my knowledge, the "rimless" rounds do not work in the Winchester designs and since Winchester was the major progenitor of the levers and rounds, you got what you got.

I can't see how the .30 Remington or .32 Remington would have been "better" in lever guns than their ballistic twins of the .30-30 and .32 Special.


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I didn't know that rimless rounds don't work in Winchester's. I know they work even better through Marlins and that's what made me wonder about the .30 Remington.

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Probably why the M94 was never offed in .35 Rem


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Makes sense.

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The 25-35, 30-30, and 32 Special had a head-start on their rimless Remington cousins, so they were well established before the 25, 30, 32, and 35 Remington rimless were introduced.

IIRC, the short lived Stevens 425 series lever actions were chambered for the Remington rimless cartridges, rather than for the 25-35. 25-36, 30-30, or 32 Special.

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Jeff, didn't marlin also experiment with a spiral tube 250-3000 model something something lever gun? Spiral tube to keep the bullet tips from one lining up with the primer from the one in front of it???


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Does not the rim help preserve degradation of the brass if the " headspace" in the chamber is stretched?


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Originally Posted by Fireball2
Jeff, didn't marlin also experiment with a spiral tube 250-3000 model something something lever gun? Spiral tube to keep the bullet tips from one lining up with the primer from the one in front of it???


Yes, Marlin made at least one 336 in 250-3000 with a spiral magazine tube, similar to the style that Remington used on their 14/141 series of pump guns, to test the concept. A decade or more ago, a guy in VA who I sold a few Ruger 77 RSIs to told me that he owned it at the time. I've never heard why they didn't follow through and put it into production.

IIRC, someone who posts on 24HCF has posted a picture of Jim Carmichel using that rifle to shoot an antelope that was in one of Dave Petzel's books. He also posted that a writer named L.R. Wallack wrote an article on this rifle in American Rifleman back in the late 1970s. I think that I remember reading about it being offered at auction within the past four or five years.

EDIT: Francis E. Sell wrote an article in a mid-1980s Gun Digest about his rimless .257" bore wildcat, the .257 Tomcat, in a Marlin 336. I think that he used blunt bullets because that rifle didn't have a spiral magazine tube.

Last edited by 260Remguy; 01/11/17. Reason: Add stuff I'd initially forgotten
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Originally Posted by 260Remguy
The 25-35, 30-30, and 32 Special had a head-start on their rimless Remington cousins, so they were well established before the 25, 30, 32, and 35 Remington rimless were introduced.

IIRC, the short lived Stevens 425 series lever actions were chambered for the Remington rimless cartridges, rather than for the 25-35. 25-36, 30-30, or 32 Special.


Very cool! I had never even heard of the Stevens 425 but upon Googling learned it was a good gun and Stevens did only chamber it in the Remington cartridges.

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Extraction was the short coming of the .250 Savage Marlin. I have wondered why Marlin did not look at the .25 Short Krag which is a rimmed .250 Savage. Unsticking the cartridge from its grip on the chamber wall is the key and it requires a good grip from the extractor to do the job.
The Winchester cartridge stop on the link can be raised with a punch or a welder. The .458 2" and the .450 Marlin seem to feed well.
The war between Marlin and Winchester is probably one of the biggest reasons why Winchester followed its own path.


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Originally Posted by 260Remguy
The 25-35, 30-30, and 32 Special had a head-start on their rimless Remington cousins, so they were well established before the 25, 30, 32, and 35 Remington rimless were introduced.

IIRC, the short lived Stevens 425 series lever actions were chambered for the Remington rimless cartridges, rather than for the 25-35. 25-36, 30-30, or 32 Special.


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Originally Posted by Fireball2
didn't marlin also experiment with a spiral tube 250-3000 model something something lever gun? Spiral tube to keep the bullet tips from one lining up with the primer from the one in front of it???
I don't know what the complete story is on those or why more makers didn't use spiral magazines, but I have some information.

Most of the Steven's 425's had "SOFT POINT" stamped on the barrel under the caliber marking. I read a report about early tube fed guns in 45-70 having cartridges touched off in the magazine because of sensitive primers but I don't know if this ever was a very common occurrence with any type ammunition. This supposedly happened during a military test of repeating rifles, I believe one mentioned was the 1881 Marlin.

Remington had a patent on the spiral magazine but I don't think it would have held up if someone challenged it, but it might just not have been worth the cost. Here is a link to the Remington patent - .uspto.gov/01043354

Another earlier patent that is almost identical is the reason I don't think it would have held up in court, but of course someone would have to know this patent existed. It was owned by Winchester which shows they had looked at the idea and the patent covered two other methods of skewing the cartridge as well as the spiral grooves. It looks like rimmed 45-70 rounds in the drawing so maybe the story of 45-70's was true and was a reason for looking at this, the patent states that it is to keep cartridges from exploding in the magazine - uspto.gov/00285284

Last edited by GeneB; 01/24/17. Reason: changed some wording

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I have often wondered if the rimmed 30-30 was a better fit in the Marlin 336 than The 35 Rem......I am considering yet another 336C but I'm torn on which chambering to get....I like the ballistics of the 35 Rem for deer but I know the 30-30 is plenty and ammo is also cheaper and much more available.........Hb

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The .35 Rem works through a 336 slicker than snot.

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My 35 Rem isn't rimmed.


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I had headspace issues with 2 of 3 marlin 35's over the years. Won't have another. Rimless carriage is the main suspect

Last edited by mogwai; 02/17/17.
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Originally Posted by moosemike
I didn't know that rimless rounds don't work in Winchester's. I know they work even better through Marlins and that's what made me wonder about the .30 Remington.


I used to use 308 brass for low power loads in a Winchester AE 307 Win. Fed and extracted fine.

Mike


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