Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Tipi/tarp vs. floored tent

Probably been beat to death, but I'm learning on this stuff.

Why one over the other?

Figure, too, that areas that I generally hunt/camp have a LOT of insects and other creepy-crawly (or slithery) stuff, and the ground can quite often be anywhere from damp to damned wet.

I've used both, but the majority of the time has been in a floored tent (lately the BA SL2).

The tipi with a stove is very nice! If you need a stove then it's a no brainer IMO, go with a tipi.

They both have a place however. The tarps are very light and give adequate protection from the elements. The tipis are also light and quite roomy. If you're going in a group and are splitting gear, this is a bonus.

If you're out in reasonable temperatures, and have a concern about snakes and bugs then the floored tent would be the way I'd go, no doubt about it.

I would think that if it's warm enough for bugs and snakes to be a problem then a stove would'nt be necessary. YMMV

I'm not sure you have to choose,I have Golite 3 an 5 with a nest for each and just the tub/floor for each,that's very convienent,the floor doesn't weigh that much,that you couldn't take it ,just in case you wanted/needed a floor...IMO

Use the best of both worlds, a tipi with a nest. That way you have the nest when you need it for the creepy-crawlies, but can leave it at home at other times.

Need more info on these "nest" things.... linky?

Seekoutside is making them for their shelters:
www.seekoutside.com

Then there is Bear paw Wilderness Design:
http://www.bearpawwd.com/

Mountain Laurel Design:
http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/index.php?cPath=47

And GoLite, which is the heaviest option for the nest:
http://www.golite.com/tents

So, the "nest" is basically just a mini-bugnet tent inside a tipi/tarp set-up?

Yep. Or they can be sized to be the same size as the tipi/tarp.

Ed,
Have you tried any one of those nests with a Super Tarp
If so which one do you think would work best ?
Tim

Some nests can be used standalone when weather or conditions permit as well, for instance Utah canyon country, I would probably either take a lightweight bivy or a nest, as it's easy to find large cover in alcoves. A quick night out in high pressure, summer weather and I would do the same.

We make some sized to our shelters, and some more generic but specific to tipi / mid shaped tents.

Kevin and Ed;

Pics and details, please.

VAnimrod:

Man you've stepped into it now.

Currently in the backpacking community, there is an energetic debate regarding which system is best, a single wall tent with a stove or a double wall tent with a floor. Each system has its� benefits and liabilities and much is dependent upon anticipated weather and terrain where you�re going to be using your shelter.

There are a bunch of good guys with lots of backpacking experience, that know what they�re doing, who advocate for single-wall tents with a lightweight, collapsible wood burning stove and no floor, as their primary backpacking shelter. I respectfully disagree.

I think I�m also a good guy who knows what he�s doing and I advocate for double-wall backpacking tents. I�ve been backpacking for fifty years and gone on maybe 300 wilderness backpack trips in that time. I�ve used every kind of tent that�s manufactured, and some that I made myself, including single-wall tents with wood burning stoves and no floors. I think there are more benefits and fewer liabilities when using double-wall tents vs single-wall tents.

Single-wall tents are significantly lighter than double-wall tents and weight is a primary concern for anyone who does more than the occasional casual backpacking trip. But moisture will condense on the inside of a single-wall tent unless you use a stove to keep the interior warm. If you don�t use a stove inside, the condensation will get everything inside the tent wet, even if it�s dry outside. By the time that you add the stove and ground cloth, the entire assembly is as heavy, sometimes heavier, than a double-wall tent.

I own several single-wall tents including a Black Diamond One Shot http://www.sierradescents.com/reviews/tents/black-diamond/oneshot.html and a Sierra Designs Origami-3 http://www.sierradesigns.com/p-294-origami-3-tarp.aspx. Both have problems with condensation on the inside of the waterproof single-wall fabric. Yes, you can deal with the condensation problem but why bother when there are acceptable alternatives. I also own several traditional canvas tents that are impregnated with paraffin/oil. They are waterproof and they breathe and they work great but they are way too heavy and bulky for backpacking.

Another thing to consider is that teepee style tents have sloping walls and although they may have a bigger floor plan, the useable floor space is less because of the sloping walls.

I do a lot of camping in places where there is no wood available. In that situation wood burning stoves are superfluous extra weight









Double-wall tents do a better job of keeping out insects than single-wall tents without floors. There have been times when the vampire mosquitoes would have eaten me alive if I had been sleeping in a single-wall tent. One can employ methods such as repellent and staking the walls tight to the ground, to reduce the insect problem inside a single-wall tent, but it�s a lot of trouble and never quite as good as a double-wall tent. It�s much easier to keep out insects when using a double-wall tent.

Some people like the warmth inside a single-wall tent with a stove, in cold weather. That�s hard to disregard but that warmth comes with a price. Since single-wall tents are lighter than double-wall tents, you can carry a single-wall tent with a bigger floor area than a double-wall tent for the same or less weight. But the stove presents a hazard that must be accounted for. A good way to ruin a sleeping bag is to roll up against a hot stove while you�re sleeping. So you have to give up some floor space to the stove and the end result is the same or less usable floor space for the same or more weight. However, even with all that taken into consideration, it�s real nice in the middle of a snow storm to be able to lounge around inside a heated tent.

The small, lightweight, collapsible stoves require constant work to keep them going. You can only use small pieces of wood so you have a big pile of twigs and you have to keep feeding them into the stove to keep it working. If you go to sleep, which is of course what you�re hoping for, the stove will go out. The tent will get cold inside and moisture will condense and freeze on the inside of the tent wall. In the morning when you restart the stove all that frost will melt and things will get just as wet as if you had no stove at all.

I guess in the final analysis I just don�t want to have to deal with the stove. I usually wait until last light to setup my tent and settle in for the night. By that time I�m usually pretty tuckered out and I just want to get inside my sleeping bag and get some rest. I don't want to have to collect a bunch of firewood and break it into pieces small enough to use in the stove and I don�t want to have to mess around with a stove inside my tent.

When I rent horses for an extended trip, I take a big standup dome tent and a small propane space heater. I run the space heater for short periods of time to heat up the tent. The effect is about the same as using a wood burning stove because both heaters are running when you�re awake and they�re not running when you�re sleeping.

There�s an art to keeping warm when sleeping in temperatures below zero. Start by insulating yourself from the frozen ground and then use a really good sleeping bag. I suggest that you use both a closed cell foam sleeping pad and a self inflating pad like a Thermarest. Wrap one inside the other for packing and sleep on both of them. You need a mummy style sleeping bag rated at 0� or colder.

A good 4-season, double wall backpack tent with a vestibule will make a big difference. It's important to keep the inside of the tent free of snow and dry. So leave your boots in the vestibule. One big advantage of sleeping directly on the snow is that there won't be any rocks, sticks or bumps under you and the snow will eventually conform to your body contours. If you setup your tent on the snow then first put a light waterproof tarp on the inside of the floor. Any moisture will run under the tarp and freeze between the tarp and the tent floor. Next build a nest inside the tent with extra clothes, stuff sacks, backpacks, etc. This keeps you from rolling off the sleeping pads onto the frozen floor of the tent. Wear only clean dry clothing to bed. Wet clothes, even those wet with only perspiration, will take several hours to dry. Wear your knitted hat to bed as a nightcap. Also sleep 2 to a tent and the extra body heat will make a difference. If your feet are cold, zip up your coat and slip it over the bottom of your sleeping bag. If your chest is cold, put your coat on inside the sleeping bag.

Bring a good thermos with an insulator. I couldn't find an insulator big enough to take a thermos, so I built my own using foam rubber and duct tape. At night first temper the thermos and then fill it with boiling water and put it inside the insulator and then inside your backpack. In the morning you have hot water for instant cocoa and oatmeal without getting out of your sleeping bag. Bring a wide mouth pee bottle so that you can urinate in the middle of the night without leaving the tent.

There�s really no right or wrong way to do it. Each system has its� benefits and liabilities. The important thing is that you go, do it and enjoy yourself.

KC

Hi

Here is a photo of a nest inside a BCS with a stove


The photo is a prototype nest, there will be a couple changes. To address a couple concerns, in this photo this setup is essentially a partial double wall tent with a DWR fabric on the back side of the nest. The total weight with a stove and nest is less than many 2 person double wall tents. You get all the options with a setup like this the only downside is it is not freestanding, but in times where terrain is challenging tie of to rocks, or bury sticks in the snow. You can use the nest on it's own, use the tent on it's own, open it up like a tarp, use it as a blind, bring a stove or don't bring one. There are a lot of options.

If you have a stove, and the capability you don't always need to bring it. I only bring it at certain times, however I can reliably find wood up to close to 12000 ft in my area, and when the days are short, I have plenty of non sleeping time to get wood. There are times I have brought a stove and chose not to use it, there are also times I wish I had brought one, and times I brought one, but didn't use because of exhaustion as KC stated (although I really regretted it and had I at least taken some time to gather wood, it would have saved me a lot of hassle and made a more enjoyable elk hunt).

I think there are some fallicies with double wall tents and floored tents. First, the floor does not always prevent water from coming in, really no more than a floorless tent, it's about location. Second, a double wall prevents most condensation but it does not guarantee dryness. I've had double wall tents that got wet inside. Bug protection, that is up to everyone's comfort level, but even a four walled stick house does not prevent spiders from getting in (or rodents for that matter). A sod skirt covered with dirt will prevent bugs pretty well, except ones that are IN THE GROUND. A floorless tent may have more dirt issues when camped in dirty or sandy areas, but a groundsheet helps, and really a floored tent will end up getting dirt inside which you then have to clean out.

In the end, it's a personal choice. For me, I'll usually go single wall floorless, or a nest in desert areas, although I also like just sleeping under the open sky. For smaller tents, I really love the utility of the BCS or just a tarp.

KC,

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Granted I don't have 50 years of backpacking experience like you but I have done a fair share especially in the past couple years.

In fact I have around 50 nights in just a GoLite Sl-5 in the past 18 months alone let alone all the other tents I have camped out in in the 150+ days afield out of the past two years.

Condensation will cause moisture on the inside of a single wall tent if it is wet outside. If it is dry and you have any type of breeze this is almost a non issue though in my experience.

For example I spent 8 days with my wife just this past year hunting sheep on one trip and it rained for 7 of them with fog down to our level. Yes made for horrible sheep hunting and prime time for condensation. However it never got to the point where it even once dripped on us on the inside let alone "get everything inside wet."

Like you KC I spend a vast majority of my backpacking above timberline so I rarley pack a stove along for my single walls and yet I don't have an issue with moisture like you described above.

I fully believe there is a time and a place for double wall tents and that is in the mountaineering realm. For most a simple single wall tipi style will not only save weight but give you MUCH more space given the same weight. A 4-5 pound double wall 3 season tent is around 30-40 sq ft of space.

Where take for example the GoLite SL-5 with the use of a trekking pole is around 2.25 pounds or 3 pounds with a 30 sq ft nest and 90 sq ft of total protected space.

If my little wife is able to put up with a floorless design and like it more than double walls due to weight and more space I am sure most tough hunting guys and pull it off too.

A stove is a nice option for a single wall tent over a double wall, but the main reason if space to weight ratio. Give me a single wall with a floored nest any day over a double wall of the same size for 99% of my backpack hunting, which happens to be what most are talking about here, not mountaineering.

VANimrod,

Here is a pic of my Single wall tipi with a nest inside to give ya an idea.

Thanks, fellas.... keep it coming!

One thing to keep in mind - I'm on the east coast, and the vast majority of the camping will be done on the east coast. That'll range from the coastal areas with VERY wet ground conditions and bugs that wrote the base program for Alaska insects to follow, up to and through mountain areas along the east coast. That involves a ton of spiders (some of them not very pleasant), snakes, more damned biting insects... rodents, etc. And, again, the potential for rather damp conditions; something the areas of the West (aside from AK and the wetside) really don't have that much of.

As for not having fuel around to burn; not a problem. VERY damned few areas above treeline, or too soupy to have trees, and those frequently don't make for good camp sites out East with better being very easily accessible.

VA, I guess I kinda have the same problem you are experiencing as nearly all my equipment is at least thirty years old but still in excellent condition so I wont just throw it away and buy new stuff. I had never heard of the nest thing and am still not at all sure of what it is. My old tent is called a three man but I call it a two man with a little extra room, has a floor and rain fly and weighs about 6 1/2 pounds but it has always kept me warm and dry. Actually never wanted a fire of any kind inside a small tent and at the old hunting camp we always had an oil stove in our 12 X 14 tent. The number one area I backpack to is above timberline (11000') so no fuel there anyway. I did break down and buy one of these modern day butane type stoves to heat water with but am not in the least interested in cooking while on a trip.

These internal frame backpacks are nice and light but I still wish for my old Kelty but I limit myself to not over 25 lbs. or so anymore so guess it doesn't make a lot of difference what kind of backpack I carry. They all will hold too much if you are not careful.

My favorite stove used to be one that could burn wood, cow patties, pine cones or just about anything that can be made to burn. It has an electric motor powered by a "B" size battery that whirls a fan as fast as you want it to. Also can adjust the amount on combustion air so outside of being a little on the heavy side, it works great.

Checking out this modern day stuff is fun but I'm getting to dang old to start investing in the latest new gear on the market.

Have fun at it as you only go around once.

VA...I also bought one of the GoLite tents at the suggestion of several of the posters and have been very happy with it.

In the summer when the bugs are bad I use the Nest and pull the Tent back so 1/2 the Nest is exposed. I learned not to rely on just the nest as one night when we were out it was perfectly clear and there was no rain predicted...and at 0100 the out of NoWhere thunderstorm came. Several of the guys were just sleeping out with nothing when the storm hit.... I just had to get out and loosen two stakes and I was secure... If I had been lazy and not put up the tent over the Nest everything would have been soaked before I would have made it out of the sleeping bag...

Last summer I was out with same bunch and they were again "tentless". I was in an Appy Trails MK V which is a lightweight version of the old Boy Scout design. Even though it is floorless I had just a piece of bug net across the doors which I had pulled back... That night the skeeters were so bad the rest of them didn't sleep as it was too hot to just hunker down in the bags... They didn't bother me at all.

Black Dimon also makes a pyramid style tent with an inner nest.

These folks make some nice tents also...

http://www.nemoequipment.com/

After finding the Appy Trails tent, again suggested by someone here, I have diched tarps.... When it rains it is bad enough...when you get wind and rain it really sucks under a tarp.... The Appy Trails tent sets up tight and bucks the wind well...and there is no 500 feet of lines to set up to make it secure....

Bob

I'll use the golite 3 if sheltering solo, a BA seedhouse 3 if my wife or daughter come. Mostly, unless it's real cold, I just take a tarp and lay it on the ground, put the bag on half and if weather turns, flip the other half over like a taco.

For wet weather I like the golite tipi for room and not worrying about wet boots inside, cooking ect... being 2 lbs is a plus also.

I don't have a nest but should get one, rattlers don't bother me but I hate scorpions... found one crawling on my bag but never had one join me inside that I know of... once, at Havasupai, I woke with hundreds of fuzzy caterpillars all over me... ticklish buggers.

Kent

We live in good times now. I use both tarp and tent but if I had to choose one alone I'd go for the double wall tent. A lot of that has to do with range of weather we get in the midwest and the bugs, including chiggers. You can now get a decent size two person tent at four lbs without breaking the bank. That'll have enough room to put wet gear in the vestibule and room to sit around a bit. Fifteen years ago, approaching that weight meant a non freestanding high low hoop tent like the Sierra Designs Flashlight. (Still a good design but not a good place for two guys to try and sit and play cards during a rainstorm or a long fall night.)
Tipis and tarp tents do give more space for weight but that weight advantage goes out the window if you're carrying a stove and jack. That fire really makes the weight worthwhile as the evening temperature drops. It's a morale booster not to huddle in your bag or wear all the clothes you own during the non-sleeping part of the evening. In a small tent, a tea candle lantern (make your own- it's lighter, smaller and works better- the same candle makes a good firestarter too)warms things up enough to help down to below ten or so.
I'm voting with KC. Usually, I just want to put up my tent and get ready to crawl in my bag.

i have found the bug worry to be very over rated. i have used a floorless in alaska and canada and north minnesota and not had a skeeter problem.

i do worry about chiggers here at home. so far a tarp on the ground has worked to keep them at bay.

if you think a bathtub floor will be your saviour in a rain you are in for a rude awakening some night if you did not choose your camp wisely.