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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31 |
Seems like there have been a lot of guys getting in to people and animals getting shot... can any of you guys share your input if you have seen the different calibers in similar situations and how much of a difference there is? I personally am a fan of larger calibers (45 acp) but often carry a 9. My roommate thinks the 9 will stop anything. Another thinks the .380 is plenty. Granted shot placement is key, but for you guys who have experience out there, how much of a difference is there in the larger calibers such as the .45 and 10mm over the .380 and 9mm?
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,891
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,891 |
I have shot deer and pigs with the 9mm and the 45 ACP and IME the 45 is higher on the food chain.. The 380 I have only tested and found it to be lacking, so much so that I am not interested in shooting a pig or deer with one
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517 |
Like she always says
"Bigger is always Better!"
But a 10mm will smack as hard or harder then the slower .45.
So it's speed AND weight that count
( After placement ... no bullet worth a nickle works when you miss )
A hit with a .380 ( or .22 ) is better than every miss with .50 AE!
Last edited by ColsPaul; 02/28/12.
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300 |
what you want is a Beretta Jetfire in 22 short.
for personal defense 9mm, .357SIG, .40S&W, .45ACP with good bullets are not worlds apart.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,135
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,135 |
I once shot a small, 100+/- lbs. whitetail doe with a 9mm and 124(?) grain Winchester Black Talon factory load. Despite the hype, I had expected a "broadhead type wound", I was not impressed by that bullet's performance during the post-mortem inspection. In contrast, I have shot several like sized deer with the 357 Magnum, 158 grain, and 44 Special, 200/225/240 grain, with much more impressive results and no need for a follow up shot.
While I used to keep a S&W 39 around for protection, I now keep a S&W 4006 for that purpose.
Jeff
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
Any well placed shot will get the job done but you have a greater margin for error with bigger calibers IMHO.
I carry a 9 as it just fits with my carry parameters for SD but when hunting carry a rifle.
There is no "final" authority in handgun calibers AFAIAC as all are a compromise in one fashion or another. As I said, it is all about shot placement followed by ACCURATE volume of fire. One good hit is better than all the misses or marginal hits in the world.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Feb 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,450 |
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517 |
I remember WAAAYYY back when the Canadian military was chosing a side arm caliber... 60's 50's?
They hung "bullet proof " jackets of the day on 2 X 4 's and shot 'em
Remember bullets then were lead or jacketed, sometimes a shallow hp or semi-jacketed. Period.
The result of their test?
Hands down 9 mm.
All other rounds would not penitrate reliably.
9mm NATO ball would through and through the wood.
Expand? probably not.
But it was speed that punched them through.
I went out and bought my first 9mm A browning HiPower.
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,513
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,513 |
Seems like there have been a lot of guys getting in to people and animals getting shot... can any of you guys share your input if you have seen the different calibers in similar situations and how much of a difference there is? I personally am a fan of larger calibers (45 acp) but often carry a 9. My roommate thinks the 9 will stop anything. Another thinks the .380 is plenty. Granted shot placement is key, but for you guys who have experience out there, how much of a difference is there in the larger calibers such as the .45 and 10mm over the .380 and 9mm? Never shot anything alive with a handgun, but my personal minimum is 9mm Parabellum/.38 Special. There's plenty of data out there from police shootings that a properly designed 9mm Parabellum or .38 Special from a three inch or longer barrel is very effective on bad guys. There is something confidence inspiring, however, about cartridges that start with a four.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,243
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,243 |
Have had to shoot lame/sick farm stock and a few deer hung up and dying in fences and such, agreed its all about placement, but the old 45 ACP with +P 230 gn FMJ-FP's has ended the suffering ASAP.
Gunner
Trump Won!
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,084
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,084 |
What ever you can handle properly.
38Spl, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 Auto, 45 Colt
In that order.
Nothing less
Snake
That which does not kill us makes us stronger
Friedrich Nietzsche
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,513
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,513 |
"Average number of rounds until incapacitation" seems a worthless measure to me, since if you fire three or four rounds, you still don't know if they would have dropped just as fast with one round only, as few people will shoot, wait, then shoot again. The results bear this out, since the outcome is irregular based on caliber, i.e., there's no clear progression in this measure based on caliber and power. Far more important a figure, it seems to me, is the one shot stop statistic. This makes logical sense based on the results, as the progression matches caliber and power progression. This is the stat I'd place most importance on when choosing a caliber. Naturally, however, multiple hits will magnify the effect by some degree, so are to be recommended in a self-defense shooting, but I'm just speaking of which stat is most information packed for our purposes.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,545
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,545 |
After 100-years the lack of consensus is the most telling.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660 |
On humans I�ve never seen an actual difference in either effect or wound channels on human targets. On small game I have seen some differences, but we�re talking game that is at least 50% the size of a human, so not the best benchmark.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,009 |
Full Disclosure: I've only owned and carried handguns for 1 year. That said...
When I went shopping for handguns, I had done a great volume of internet research. Naturally, I discovered that the vast majority of the everyday carry crowd have never shot another person. So, 99% of people's opinions are based on information available to all of us. That's important.
I also talked to the armorer/instructor for the county sheriff's office and a few other LEOs. To a man, they said that when they advise friends and family on which gun to buy they emphasize a gun that the person will actually take with them when they leave the house and carry in a manner that is readily accessible.
Based on their own training and experiences and talking with their fellow LEOs. They rarely (I can't remember exact numbers) respond to the scene of a shooting and find a dead person who (1) had a gun, and (2) got it out and shot it.
The third most important factor (behind "Bring your gun" and "Keep it accessible") was accuracy. Most of what I read and learned from LEOs indicates that any hit on the bad guy, regardless of whether it kills him/incapacitates him/just wings him/whatever results in the good guy living.
So, statistically, if you (1) bring a gun, (2) get it into action, and (3) hit something, you are going to walk away. Sure, if you can do numbers 1-3 with a larger, more powerful cartridge, your chances go up even further.
So, it appears most day-to-day citizen gun battles will be decided primarily by factors 1 and 2. To a lesser extent number 3. That explains why LEOs advise their friends and families based on 1 and 2--too many people stop carrying after a few months because their gun is too heavy, too bulky, or is a pain to have to strap on for a trip to the store. Guns get left home or are carried in a manner where they cannot be used quickly. The actual cartridge fired doesn't come into play frequently enough for it to be the primary consideration
Based on that logic (flawed or not), I bought a 4" 1911 .45 ACP. I carry it when I am not working, but sometimes even to work. I go to court a lot and am forever having to put my gun on and take it off. I also bought a Sig P238 .380. I carry that gun mostly at work because of the ease of carrying it. Having these two guns to choose from has resulted in me always having an option that works for me, and consequently, I always have my gun with me, and I carry it in an accessible manner.
Is the .380 a great choice for a self-defense cartridge. Maybe not a "great" choice, but based on the scads of data out there, I am convinced it's at least a "good" choice. More importantly to me is that I like that particular model--it feels good in my hand and I can shoot it better than other pocket pistols that I tried (two Rugers and a KelTec).
So, when anyone asks me for my two cents, that's what I tell them. I've only been carrying for a year and have never shot anyone. But since pretty much everybody is in the same boat--having to rely on other people's data--I am satisfied that I have made a good choice for me. YMMV.
Carry on!
Wade
"Let's Roll!" - Todd Beamer 9/11/01.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Very interesting data there. Thanks for sharing.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,513
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,513 |
Full Disclosure: I've only owned and carried handguns for 1 year. That said...
When I went shopping for handguns, I had done a great volume of internet research. Naturally, I discovered that the vast majority of the everyday carry crowd have never shot another person. So, 99% of people's opinions are based on information available to all of us. That's important.
I also talked to the armorer/instructor for the county sheriff's office and a few other LEOs. To a man, they said that when they advise friends and family on which gun to buy they emphasize a gun that the person will actually take with them when they leave the house and carry in a manner that is readily accessible.
Based on their own training and experiences and talking with their fellow LEOs. They rarely (I can't remember exact numbers) respond to the scene of a shooting and find a dead person who (1) had a gun, and (2) got it out and shot it.
The third most important factor (behind "Bring your gun" and "Keep it accessible") was accuracy. Most of what I read and learned from LEOs indicates that any hit on the bad guy, regardless of whether it kills him/incapacitates him/just wings him/whatever results in the good guy living.
So, statistically, if you (1) bring a gun, (2) get it into action, and (3) hit something, you are going to walk away. Sure, if you can do numbers 1-3 with a larger, more powerful cartridge, your chances go up even further.
So, it appears most day-to-day citizen gun battles will be decided primarily by factors 1 and 2. To a lesser extent number 3. That explains why LEOs advise their friends and families based on 1 and 2--too many people stop carrying after a few months because their gun is too heavy, too bulky, or is a pain to have to strap on for a trip to the store. Guns get left home or are carried in a manner where they cannot be used quickly. The actual cartridge fired doesn't come into play frequently enough for it to be the primary consideration
Based on that logic (flawed or not), I bought a 4" 1911 .45 ACP. I carry it when I am not working, but sometimes even to work. I go to court a lot and am forever having to put my gun on and take it off. I also bought a Sig P238 .380. I carry that gun mostly at work because of the ease of carrying it. Having these two guns to choose from has resulted in me always having an option that works for me, and consequently, I always have my gun with me, and I carry it in an accessible manner.
Is the .380 a great choice for a self-defense cartridge. Maybe not a "great" choice, but based on the scads of data out there, I am convinced it's at least a "good" choice. More importantly to me is that I like that particular model--it feels good in my hand and I can shoot it better than other pocket pistols that I tried (two Rugers and a KelTec).
So, when anyone asks me for my two cents, that's what I tell them. I've only been carrying for a year and have never shot anyone. But since pretty much everybody is in the same boat--having to rely on other people's data--I am satisfied that I have made a good choice for me. YMMV.
Carry on! I see nothing unreasonable about your take on the matter.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225 |
I've shot quite a few deer and hogs with a variety of different handguns. Not so much as a "test", but because we have been over-run with hogs in this area and I tend to use whatever is on my hip when they appear. These include the .22LR, .30 Mauser, .32-20, .380, 9mm, .38 Spl, .357, 10mm, .41 Mag, .44 Spl, .44 Mag, .45 ACP and .45 Colt. There have been a few others, but I have taken at least 3 animals with each of these and can make a fair judgement on their effect rather than trying to judge from a single kill.
In my experience a heavier, bigger bore round is generally more effective than a smaller one. There does seem to be a "threshold" of velosity where a bullet is clearly more effective.....somewhere around 1100 fps......where the "shock" of a bullet strike is much more evident. Not nessisarily more "deadly" as the only reliable way to "kill" is with deep penetration and damage to vital organs.....but there is definitely more reaction from the animal and often a "quicker" kill.
Oddly, once this velosity level is reached more velosity just doesn't seem to be any more effective. A 240 grain .44 caliber bullet at 1200 fps is no more "deadly" than the same bullet at 1400 fps.
The .22LR, .30 Mauser, .380, and 9mm are very marginal for heavier game.....primarilly due to improper bullet design.....and must be carefully placed. The .357 is beginning to reach the right level of performance and surprisingly so is the .32-20. I feel this is because of fairly high velosity combined with proper hard-cast bullets.
Of course the "best" rounds are of larger bore size, heavy bullets and good velosity.......such as the 10mm, .41 Mag and .44 Mag. These are the "cream of the crop" and hit hard and penetrate reliably.
The remaining rounds, .44 Spl, .45 ACP and .45 Colt do not have the velosity to "shock" the animal as much but rely on bullet weight and design to penetrate and kill. It may not be as dramatic, but it is deadly. The .45 ACP is the most diffecult to achieve this due to most bullets being full jacketed or too light in weight. It can be effective but trails the .44 Spl and .45 Colt.
Others experiences may be different, but I feel if you insist on using light weigh, high velosity bullets of smaller caliber......sooner or later you will run into problems.
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men
The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
I love the 9mm but the biggest difference between the small cal compared to the 45 or 44 is it has to expand to catch up, where the bigger bullet doesn't really have to expand to get the same effect. Bullet diameter , weight and mass does make a difference when it comes to stopping power in a handgun.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,450
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,450 |
Full Disclosure: I've only owned and carried handguns for 1 year. That said...
When I went shopping for handguns, I had done a great volume of internet research. Naturally, I discovered that the vast majority of the everyday carry crowd have never shot another person. So, 99% of people's opinions are based on information available to all of us. That's important.
I also talked to the armorer/instructor for the county sheriff's office and a few other LEOs. To a man, they said that when they advise friends and family on which gun to buy they emphasize a gun that the person will actually take with them when they leave the house and carry in a manner that is readily accessible.
Based on their own training and experiences and talking with their fellow LEOs. They rarely (I can't remember exact numbers) respond to the scene of a shooting and find a dead person who (1) had a gun, and (2) got it out and shot it.
The third most important factor (behind "Bring your gun" and "Keep it accessible") was accuracy. Most of what I read and learned from LEOs indicates that any hit on the bad guy, regardless of whether it kills him/incapacitates him/just wings him/whatever results in the good guy living.
So, statistically, if you (1) bring a gun, (2) get it into action, and (3) hit something, you are going to walk away. Sure, if you can do numbers 1-3 with a larger, more powerful cartridge, your chances go up even further.
So, it appears most day-to-day citizen gun battles will be decided primarily by factors 1 and 2. To a lesser extent number 3. That explains why LEOs advise their friends and families based on 1 and 2--too many people stop carrying after a few months because their gun is too heavy, too bulky, or is a pain to have to strap on for a trip to the store. Guns get left home or are carried in a manner where they cannot be used quickly. The actual cartridge fired doesn't come into play frequently enough for it to be the primary consideration
Based on that logic (flawed or not), I bought a 4" 1911 .45 ACP. I carry it when I am not working, but sometimes even to work. I go to court a lot and am forever having to put my gun on and take it off. I also bought a Sig P238 .380. I carry that gun mostly at work because of the ease of carrying it. Having these two guns to choose from has resulted in me always having an option that works for me, and consequently, I always have my gun with me, and I carry it in an accessible manner.
Is the .380 a great choice for a self-defense cartridge. Maybe not a "great" choice, but based on the scads of data out there, I am convinced it's at least a "good" choice. More importantly to me is that I like that particular model--it feels good in my hand and I can shoot it better than other pocket pistols that I tried (two Rugers and a KelTec).
So, when anyone asks me for my two cents, that's what I tell them. I've only been carrying for a year and have never shot anyone. But since pretty much everybody is in the same boat--having to rely on other people's data--I am satisfied that I have made a good choice for me. YMMV.
Carry on! I totally agree.....I have said before and maintain that I am a big caliber fan....I especially like the .45ACP.....but I am simply not going to carry my Glock or 1911 everywhere I go....Its not comfortable and is heavy. I purchased a Ruger LCP .380 auto several months back....bought a Kel Tec belt clip (like a pocket knife clip) and modified it a little to fit my LCP. I carry it in my front pocket like a pocket knife. It feels like a cell phone and therfore I have it on me 24/7 no matter where I go, unless the law prohibits it. I often even forget I have it on me which I never could when having a few pounds hanging off my side Thanks for the post waders, I am a life long gun owner and CC permit holder and you hit the nail on the head 
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
-Thomas Jefferson
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