Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Any Webley experts here? - new pix added

Greetings! I hang out almost exclusively in the Savage forum but my wife has inherited some handguns so I thought maybe someone here could give me some information on a couple of them. The first is pretty strightforward- it's a Mark IV, 38 caliber, marked as "war finish".





































The second is a little more intriqing, the only markings are "Webley patents" and serial # (I believe) 28x. It's nickle plated and looks to be a 45 caliber...also has a holster. Any help here would appreciated.

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The first one looks to be commercial production due to the stocks. They were made in large numbers. Caliber 380 Webley, 38/200, 38 S&W, 38 Colt NP, different names for the same thing.

If you can get good photos, particularly of proof marks and serial numbers, the folks here can be quite helpful.

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?56-British-Gun-Pub

Webley had a partner at one time and they made a revolver in .442 Boxer for the Royal Irish Constabulary, sometime in the late 1860�s/early 1870�s; I�m wondering if this could be one. But that crest looks more like the Royal (English) crown, not Irish??

I'll take a look at a couple of books when I get home tonight.

The most common makers of revolvers in Britain at that time were Webley, Tranter, and Adams. British gunmakers quite commonly built guns on each other's patents and paid a royalty. My thought is that's the case here. The overall lines and grip frame are similar to the early Webley single action revolvers, but those were solid top, like a Colt's.

Very cool revolver though, very cool.

Hey, I forgot to ask; can you take a photo of the proof marks? Webley patent revolvers were also made by various makers in Belgium.

The top gun is a standard .38/200 (.38 S&W) of WWII vintage. Because of the urgency to get guns into the hands of troops the finish on these guns wasn't up to Webley's usual standard, hence they were marked as "war finish".

The second revolver looks to be a transitional Webley-Pryse type (early style frame but with later thumb release as found on Mk 1 - VI revolvers) or perhaps a very early Webley Greene.

The holster has an RAF badge on the flap; for no particular reason-- perhaps it's the nickle finish?-- the combination of the two suggests service in India.

I think you�re spot on. The back half of the gun is pure Webley-Greene, and the front half is Webley-Pryse. So that makes it some sort of transitional gun. If I had to guess, it would be an early Webley Greene. I wonder if the gun has a rebounding hammer; that was the big piece that Greene brought to the Webley design. I don�t think the Pryse revolvers had a rebounding hammer, so that one issue could potentially settle the matter. The Pryse guns are typically worth about $1,000 more than the Greene�s, but this one is a little of both so who knows.

Typical of the time, the gun was purchased by the individual officer, so I�m sure the gentleman who bought it simply went to his favorite outlet, hefted a few guns, and settled on this one; without any further thought.

No epert here in any way shape or form when it comes to Webley's, Just had to stop in and say.... NICE! Especially that 45 or whatever it is. Gorgeous and facsinating handgun, that one.

I've owned a fair number of W-Gs, including a couple of "church steeple" revolvers. Absolutely fantastic shooters, right up there with First Model Hand Ejector Smith and Wessons. The major external difference between W-Gs (and other early Webleys) and the Mk 1-VI Webleys are the holster guides on the Mk pistols, those flat triangular bits immediately in front of the cylinder, which were intended to make it easier to holster the revolver when mounted.

Wow! Thanks everyone for the input. I apologize for the pictures, will pull out another camera and try for better.

some better pix - the 38:





































































































































































the 45:



































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One of the nicer gun shops in CA had a Webley for sale, which was one of one. It was said to be the only one ever made by Holland & Holland. It was $75k

The ARMY & NAVY COOPERATIVE SOCIETY LONDON, was just that-- a co-op that sold things to serving members of HM's forces throughout the world. This pistol would have been a catalog item sold via mail order or purchased "over the counter" at the A&NCSL store in London.

In addition to selling guns under their own name, Webley sold thru up-market dealers (such as H&H and Wilkinson Sword) and would roll the dealer's name on the top flat of the barrel (as has been done in the above photo). The single rarest Webley I ever owned was an unfired, nickle plated, Mk1 with finely chequered rosewood grips that bore no visible serial number, proof marks, or maker's name or logo.

When I bought it the gun was wrapped in tissue paper and in it's original holster, which was also wrapped in tissue and stored in a very heavy burgundy coloured cardboard box. The only mark on the revolver was "York House" rolled on the top flat of the barrel.

I bought the gun for �75 from an antique dealer in deepest Surrey, and after a bit of research sold it to a local collector for �3,500. Why so much? York House is the official residence of HRH the Duke of York. In 1901 the Duke of York became the Prince of Wales, and in 1910 he became King George V of Great Britain.

Holland & Holland didn't make the revolver, they ordered it from Webley and had it marked with their name and retailed it thru their London shop. Before I'd part with that much money (I sold one of the original prototype Fosburys for $25,000) I'd definitely invest �18 in a letter from the W&S archives. I suspect H&H sold more than just one Webley revolver....

I guess I would have to label it an Early Webley-Greene; very nice gun. If I had to guess, I�d say the chambering is probably .476 Eley as that�s what I�ve seen most WG�s chambered in. I would estimate value at anywhere between $1,500-$2,500-ish as a rough estimate without definitively identifying the gun and cartridge.

The Army Navy Co-Op tended to buy their guns from Birmingham trade workers. Understand that the large makers in London were massively supplied by trade workers in Birmingham as there were no London makers who truly had the capability to make complete guns from raw materials. The Birmingham trade workers were the real workhorse of English gun making over the past 400 years or so. Back in the 1880�s in just one 4 block radius there were 78 known workers of the trade (gunsmiths, action filers, screw makers, forgers, casters, engravers, barrel makers, strikers, etc). The London makers had a huge amount of influence in the gun market and actually kept many makers from building guns in their own name and risk offending their best customers. One of the most prolific action makers was Tranter who branched out on his own, only to be rebuffed and slide back into making guns for other names.

Webley was one of the many Birmingham makers who managed to �break out� and build guns with his own name. But it should be known that Webley, like most everyone else in the gun making business (with the exception of Greener, and possibly Westley Richards), Webley lacked the equipment necessary for all aspects of gun making, so Webley made good use of the trade. This is why you see so many British made guns that will list the patent on the gun, because the patents were shared by the entire industry. Your average sidelock ejector double gun would consist of:

Holland�s patent action
Purdey�s patent underbolt locking
Scott�s patent spindle, or a Jone�s patent under-lever
Southgate�s patent ejectors
Henry�s patent rifling
Stanton's patent rebounding hammers

So it�s a flip of the coin whether Webley actually made your gun, or someone else in Birmingham who made a few to be sold to Army Navy. It should be noted that up until WWII, Army Navy tended to sell very high quality guns. None were �best� quality, but every pre-WWII Army Navy gun I�ve handled showed excellent manufacturing quality. So regardless of who the actual maker was, you have a first rate revolver there.

I just reread my original post... OOPS! the revolver is a Webley KAUFMANN, Model 1880, chambered for the .450 centerfire round. (Don't know why I wrote Pryse...)

In 1882 Webley added the Webley Green, arguably their finest revolver. The popularity of both the W-Kaufmann and W-Green led Wilkinson to introduce the Mk 1 revolver in 1887, which, undergoing various improvements thru the Mk VI remained in service for 65 years-- surely some sort of a record for a military revolver!

Based on the book "Webley Revolvers" by Bruce and Reinhart, the second revolver is a Webley Improved Government Revolver, Second Pattern which was made between 1883 and 1885. The identifying features are the barrel latch design with a stud at the top of the frame which is cammed in by the lever while the spring arm directly behind the cylinder on the right side is pushed out to release the barrel, and the small hinge diameter. On the right hand side of the frame is are the initials MK joined together inside a triangle. MK is believed to stand for Michael Kaufman, a firearms designer who joined Webley around 1880 and designed several improvements which resulted in the Improved Gov't models.

The first pattern Improved Gov't has the stud at the top of the frame to release the barrel but lacks the pivoting lever below it, while the third pattern introduced the stirrup latch that characterized all the later Webleys. These models were transitional between the earlier Pryse design and the later W-G models.

The W-G models, starting after 1885, had the stirrup latch and also introduced the large hinge seen on all the later Webley hinge frame models.

Incidentally, the Webley Pryse revolvers can be identified by the bilateral barrel latches located behind the cylinder, pivoted on the recoil shields. Pushing on the bottom of the latches pivots the tops outwards releasing the barrel. This is a much weaker design than the later stirrup latch where the barrel extension locks solidly into the frame.

You guys are awesome - I believe Jlin222 hit it on the head. I did a Google search and found an almost identical one on Gunbroker. The triangle with the MK is there but very faint. I assume any cleaning on these should be done very carefully. Thanks for all your help.