Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Need advice on Muzzleloader hunting/shooting. Revisiting the whole thing.

It's been a bit since I used a smoke pole. I stopped several years ago and the last one I owned was the very first run of the in line Knights. I have a Lyman Hawken .50 cal and need a little advice and refreshing of my memory. I'll make a list to make this a little easier:

Best way to clean a Hawken style BP rifle
Best type of nipple to run
Best patches and round ball
Best loose powder and caps to use.

It's been a while and I'm sure there have been improvements in the past 20 years or so. Just looking for some "Cliff Notes" to catch up on what I've missed.

The Lyman is a very nice rifle. Lot's of questions here so let me cover a few things:

1) You powder choice will be #1. I suggest Triple 7, Pyrodex or real Black Powder. The real stuff can be hard to find because of some storage regulations the feds have but on sellers. I like Remington #11 primers / caps but other will work fine. Just make sure your nipple is made for size #11.

2) Not sure what thread the Lyman uses for their nipples but that should be easy to research. There a a few variations so be sure you get the correct thread size.

3) You can shoot full bore conicals or a patched round ball ( PRB ). If your twist is 1/66 or 1/72 a PRB will be the ticket. If it's a 1/48 either may work. If you shoot the PRB get either a .490 or .495 ball and a few different patch thicknesses. I shoot the .490 with either a .10, .15 or .20 patch. For conicals, I like Hornady Great Plains.

4) Clean up can be done with water. The procedure takes a while to explain so I suggest a search on the topic. Be diligent on clean up as many a fine rifle has met it's demise due to poor cleaning. If I don't have time to clean, I don't shoot. It's just part of the game.

Finally, have fun. It can be very rewarding to put the pieces together and shoot well. I took a doe with a TC Hawken this year during the CF rifle season. I just prefer the challenge.

Thanks Larry. I remember using the hot/boiling water cleaning and it wasn't all that difficult. More time consuming but not bad. Also I have some TC cleaner that's light blue that's supposed to clean real well.
I guess my biggie is the round balls and patching. I'm thinking that will be trial and error. The guy I bought from said 80 grains of Triple 7 and a .10 patch with a .490 hornady RB is what he used. I'll start there and fiddle around with it. Thanks for the advice and second opinion. Ed

The above load would be a great starting point. Most 50's shoot well in this range.

One thing I found out after tearing down my TC hawkin that I had cleaned with water or solvent was that it moisture gets unnder the rib on the bottom and rusts.
Typically I imersed the nipple end inhot soapy water( with nipple removed) and sucked water up the tube with close fitting wet patch. Doing this several times.

I have gone back to black powder ater trying pyrodex ad 777. See no real advantage of either and ahd Pyrodex degrade on me. 777 not as bad.

"Best way to clean a Hawken style BP rifle"

As soon as possible after shooting it. At least within a few hours. Water, commercial solvents, or home made concoctions all work. A tight fitting patch and cleaning jag. Oil or other rust preventative.

"Best type of nipple to run"

Lyman rifles take a 6.75 thread nipple. Which brand is just personal preference.

"Best patches and round ball"

This is going to require some load development. Try different size balls (for your 50 cal try .480, .490, or .495) with patches of different thickness until your rifle shows you what it shoots best. Also, try different patch lubes as that can have an effect of group size.

Best loose powder and caps to use.

Goex 3-f black powder works well in most 50 cal rifles. 2-f can work well too, try both and see which the rifle is gong to shoot best. Magnum caps are hotter these days, I use CCI, but some brands fit some nipples better than others. Again, you will have to try them on you rifle.

A good starting place for a hunting load would be around 60 grains of Goex 3-f, .490 round ball, 10 thick patch, and CCI caps. From there it's just like working up a hand load for a center fire rifle.

I avoid this by putting a few drops of Ballistol in the water I use the flush out the barrel.

My Lyman Great Plains rifle does best with 75 grains of Goex 3F, Pillow ticking patch and a .490 rb. I use either CCI or Remington no. 11 caps and can't tell any difference between them.

For patch lube I soak the patches in Ballistol and let them dry overnight. 3 different rifles in .50, .54, and .62 prefer this lube over anything else I've tried.

For your .50 I would suggest starting at 55 or 60 grains, shoot a group, add 5 grains, shoot a group until you find your rifles favorite load. Run a cleaning patch dampened with saliva (yup, spit) down the bore once between each loading.

I should add that this is what I do with black powder, I've never been too impressed with the substitutes but I would think the process would be the same.

I clean mine with room temp. water and a squirt of Ballistol added. After I get clean patches during cleaning I drain the water from the barrel and run clean patches down the bore. Once patches come out dry I run a patch dampened with Barricade down the bore to prevent rust.

Next time I use the rifle I run a patch wet with 91% rubbing alcohol down the bore and let dry for a few minutes before loading.

Rubbing alcohol is more water than alcohol.Go to Home Dept or ? nd buy a gallon of methanol, it wll dry farser and take out more oils. Or you can go to the liquor store and buy 180 proof ethanol and drink what you don't use.

Yeah I know but it's dirt cheap and dries fast enough for my purposes, Besides I usually manage to cut myself on a flint during the course of a range session and the alcohol come in handy for that too.

Lots of good info. Thank you all. Ed

Larry covered most of it. Don't overthink it. A lot of modern stuff is really not much better than the old stuff. Soap and water to clean. A modern nipple is a slight improvement. It always takes some experimenting to get the best results out the barrel. I like Pyrodex and loose black powder. I think some of the new stuff and pellets are harder to ignite. I like conicals for hunting because they carry energy much further than RBs, which is important for bigger animals like elk.

Black powder is corrosive, but it is not going to ruin your gun if you don't clean it until the next day, especially if you live in the arid part of the West.

Just about everything covered so far.
For my hooked breech guns, after I remove the nipple, I stick the breech end of the barrel in a coffee can with warm soapy water. As said, when patches are clean, rinse and dry.
Lock removal and cleaning is important too.

As for moisture getting under the rib of a Lyman barrel, an old hairdryer works fine.

I have two (2) older, .50 caliber CVA Hawken rifles... one with a 28-inch barrel (7� lbs and 1:48 twist) I've designated as my "target rifle" and one (6� lb, 1:48 twist "Hunter-Carbine") with a 24-inch barrel I've designated as my "deer hunting carbine".

Both rifles love 47 grains of Swiss FFFg for shooting paper targets and both are extremely accurate using this "target load"... putting three .490" patched, round rifle balls in a small inter-locking "group" at 25 yards.

The Carbine with the 24-inch barrel shoots a 70 grain load of Swiss FFFg with the same accuracy as the "target" load.

I use a Hornady swagged .490-inch rifle ball with a .016" cotton denim cut-patch lubed with a mixture of bee's wax & liquid Crisco Vegetable Oil formed into a solid cake in a small, round sour cheese container, but which breaks down easily into a very "smearable" mixture with the heat from one's finger. I use standard CCI #11 percussion cap and have never had a mis-fire.

I clean the rifles with very hot water with a small "squirt" of soap, rinsed by some very hot water & dried out with the heat from the hot water left in the barrel plus compressed air from my small air-compressor... blowing down the barrel and into the screw-hole in the drum until everything is THOROUGHLY dry.

I, then, lube the barrel with a cut cotton patch very wet with Ballistol, changing positions of the patch-going-down-the-barrel about 60� with each "stroke" and inserting/withdrawing the patch on a slotted range-rod tip several times and from several different positions around the barrel's diameter while spraying Ballistol into the open screw hole in the drum from a small, pressurized spray-can of Ballistol.

Then I use a little air pressure (about 50 lbs) from the air-compressor to blow in the screw-hole in the drum leaving a light oil coating of oil in the flash-channel. I then run a clean, dry cotton patch down the barrel several times to leave ONLY a light coating of Ballistol protecting the bore... and then, I store all muzzle-loading rifles with the barrel DOWN.

Storing the rifles in a "barrel-down" position helps to eliminated the oil "puddling" in the bottom of the barrel thus possibly causing a mis-fire due to "oil-wet" powder.

At the rifle range,prior to initially shooting the rifle, I place & "fire" a single percussion cap on the UNLOADED rifle's nipple to insure the flash-channel is clear and open. I then load a standard target load of 47 grains of real black powder and begin a day of shooting.

Lately (in 2012), I began experimenting with replacing Swiss FFFg with equal amounts of Goex FFFg and found, at 25 yards, NO DIFFERENCE in the point-of-impact OR in the apparent accuracy of the two black powders which surprised me since I've been told (in the past) that Swiss Black Powder was "more accurate" and created "less fired powder debris" than Goex.

At least, at 25 yards, I did NOT find this to be true. However, I must admit that I didn't chronograph either load, so the proof and truth is still unknown.

I did notice that the Swiss BP residue seemed to clean up very slightly easier than the Goex BP residue, using my "normal" cleaning method.

I'll be doing more "experimenting" when the weather gets better in 2013 and will probably get out the chronograph to find out the truth.

Try to keep in mind that the reason we do these things is for FUN and ENJOYMENT... so don't "get serious"... at least not TOO "serious". I.E. have fun and ENJOY yourself, that's what it is all about.

Make GOOD smoke... !


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

You would have seen quite a difference in fps if you crono the loads. Something like 200-300 fps. Probably not too noticeable at 25yds.

You should have felt a difference in recoil though. Swiss is equal to T7 in power.

Thanx for the info, Mauser Hunter...

I didn't "feel" any difference in recoil, but then... I was only shooting 47 grains of BP in .50 caliber rifles.

I still have about 1� lbs of Swiss FFFg and intend to use 70 grains of it for hunting loads in my Hawken Carbine since I found it is so accurate and with enough power to shoot "through" a deer side-to-side.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

I killed a cow elk with a .54 PRB and 80gr of Swiss 2F. Good powder, but a bit pricey if you shoot a lot.

Yes... Swiss surely IS "pricey", but for my hunting loads, I'll probably still continue to use the Swiss FFFg once I chronopraph it's velocity if it's muzzle velocity is more than 100 fps faster than Goex... and I expect it very well may be.

I started out years ago using Goex, but then our black powder club President "strongly" urged me to use the "much-more-accurate" Swiss... so I did.

And that's why I'm experimenting with Goex loads now. Goex is $14 a pound and Swiss is going for $22-$23.50 a pound... a HUGE difference in powder costs and I'm not sure it is justified regardless of what our Club President believes.

I also understand that they've built a new plant to make Goex Black Powder down south somewhere ( in Alabama?)... and the quality-control and refinement of Goex Black Powder is supposed to be better than it has previously been thus making it closer to the Swiss black powder in quality, burning rate and other "results".

However, "accuracy" is important to me due to all the years I spend shooting center-fire rifles off the bench-rest. By the same token, the "price-of-accuracy" has LIMITS!

Therefore, at the above powder's prices, I intend to SURELY check-out Goex very thoroughly.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

With guns that have easily de-mountable barrels, I pop them off and take them into the shower with me along with a rod and patches. Clean the gun at the same time I clean myself.