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Thanks to excellent advice from many on this & other forums I'm on the verge of having a .35 Whelen built ... my one unresolved question is, what twist rate would you recommend for the barrel?
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<br>I'm not trying to do anything exotic -- I would like to be able to shoot big game bullets up to 250 gr., as well as jacketed and cast pistol bullets for practice or small game.
<br>
<br>John

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I think a 1 in 12 would be a good test, hopefully Ken will chime in.


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I used 1/14 in one I had. It handled all available jacketed bullet weights very well (from 200-300 at that time). If it came to resale at some time I'm not sure how some folks would respond to the 1/12.
<br>I tend to think the 1/14 twist is somewhat kinder to cast bullets than the faster twist. I shot a lot of cast in mine and I'm thinking of making up another rifle as the original got sold off. Dealing on a pre-war Mod. 70 that has had its barrel all used up and is definitely in need of a lot of TLC. It's a very effective cartridge and I would go with the standard Whelen rather than an Improved. If you need more get up and go than the standard go to a bigger case. besto.

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Personally , I feel if you have any desire to mess with the heavier bullets , you should get a 1 in 12 if you have a choice. I can't think of any good reason to go with a marginal twist , unless you plan on dedicating the rifle to cast bullets. It seems Woodliegh feels the 1 in 14 would be marginal with their 310 gr slug .
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<br>The .358 Winchester , .358 Norma , 9.3x62 , .375 H&H all have 1 in 12 twist as standard . I have always wondered why the manufacturers want to saddle the Whelen with a slow twist and light for the caliber bullets.

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john
<br>
<br>Stocker has some good advice on the 35 whelen
<br>
<br>I could be some what confusing on the twists for the whelen, so you can use the advice or throw it in the trash.
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<br>I built a 35 whelen AI last year, haven't taken it hunting yet, but I've made a half dozen trips to the gun range.
<br>I decided to go with the 200 gr exclusively with the 35 whelen, so I order a shilen 1-14" twist and haven't regreted it since I first shot it.
<br>I chronied 2 five shot groups, the first averaged 2711, and the second was just a little faster.
<br>At a 100yds I haven't had any keyholes just nice round .35 holes.
<br>
<br>I'm sure the 1-12" twist would work just fine for your bullet needs, but 1-14" seems to work great with the 200gr bullets.
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<br>Good hunting!
<br>

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A too fast twist is always better than a too slow. Go for the 12 twist. Light bullets will shoot just fine with a fast twist, whereas heavy bullets will NOT stablize with a slow twist. When in doubt twist it faster. Flinch


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They used 1:12 when they built my .358 Norma. I've never checked my 7600 in Whelen though.
<br>
<br>The current tendency with .35's is to load heavier bullets than have been the norm. I would go with the 1:12 in your shoes.


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Have a 350 Rem Mag with 1 16" twist and it shoots 300 grain RNoses fine. Had a 358 Win with a 14" twist and it worked very well too. These were both very accurate guns. I often wondered if the 358 Win had a reputation for less than stellar accuracy because of a too fast 12 or 10" twist. If I was going custom I'd go with a 14" twist.

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FWIW, I'm with the 1-14" crowd, though not from any experience.
<br>
<br>I have some good articles on the 35 Whelen by Finn Aagaard. He used a Remington factory rifle extensively with the 1-16" twist, then had a custom 35 Whelen built with a 1-12" twist... after a thousand rounds through the custom Whelen, he offered the opinion that the 1-14" twist was probably "optimal" (his words).
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<br>Based on his advice I ordered a Whelen with the 1-14" twist... after a month I changed (blasphemy) the order to 338-06.
<br>
<br>Brad


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My 7600 has a 1/16 and handles conventional bullets up to 250 grains without any problems. I see no reason to go with a tighter twist, unless using copper bullets. JMO, Dutch.


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My Ruger M-77 Mk II Limited Edition in 35 Whelen had a 1:16 twist. It shot 250 grain bullets under MOA at about 2,550 fps. Also, the 250's were more accurate as velocity increased. I suspect that with the slow twist, the bullets stabilized better as they went faster.
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<br>I think Remington and Ruger use 1:16 for three reasons:
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<br>1) Most people shoot 200 or 225 grain bullets in them,
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<br>2) The slower twist helps keep pressure down, and
<br>
<br>3) The heaviest commonly available bullet weighs 250 grains. I know custom makers make heavier bullets, but the shooter who will spring for them probably has a custom rifle with a faster twist barrel.
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<br>Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Okie John.


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I specified a 1 in 12 twist for my .358 Norma Magnum.
<br>
<br>I have obtained superb accuracy at velocities ranging from that typical of a .35 Remington to full-blown .358 Norma Magnum speeds.
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<br>At 3050fps, 125 gr pistol bullets start to vaporize in mid-air sometimes though... Makes for an awesome varmint rifle! [Linked Image]
<br>
<br>

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If you intend to shoot 250 gr. pointed bullets, the theoretical best twist would be between 1-15 and 1-16.
<br>
<br>Many .35 Whelens with 1-16 twist perform fine with 250 gr. pointed bullets, but I would personally prefer a slower twist. I guess that if I were making a .35 Whelen today, I would opt for a 1-14 twist.
<br>
<br>Bullet stabilization is a funny creature. If the twist is too fast, and I think it has to be quite a bit too fast, the bullet will be over stabilized. In other words, it will wobble somewhat in flight until it has shed enough velocity to "settle down." If the bullet is under stabilized, it will tumble in flight, and there is really no fix for that.
<br>
<br>As I said, I would opt for a little over stabilization any day rather than under stabilization. I really don't think there would be any harm with a 1-14 twist, even though, theoretically, it would greatly over stabilize, say, a 180 or 200 grainer.
<br>
<br>The Whelen I had years ago had a 1-16 twist, and it never gave me any problems with either under or over stabilization. I never shot any pointed 250 grainers out of it, however, so can't say from experience if a 1-16 twist will stabilize a pointed 250 grainer.

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Over-stabilization is mostly a holdover myth, created in the days when most bullets were pretty badly out of balance. With good bullets, you can use a much faster twist than "optimum" and get fine accuracy. I recently had a .358 STA made with a 1-12, just to be sure 310 Woodleighs would stabilize, even at sea level in damp Alaskan air. It shoots superbly with 220 Speers as well.
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<br>It's also been found that a steeper twist doesn't materially affect pressure unless it's REALLY steep, like maybe 1-8 in the .35.
<br>


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OK, I gotta ask: "even at sea level in damp Alaskan air" would seem to indicate that air density and humidity have an effect on bullet stability in flight. Could you elaborate? Most of my shooting and reloading has been in the dry intermountain west at altitudes from 4000 to 12,000 feet. Now I'm living on the margin of a wet rock in SE AK, and I'm wondering how much difference it will make. I hope to break out my chronograph one of these days (before the days are too dark) to see if velocities drop off appreciably.
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<br>Anyway, if you have insights into the changes in exterior ballistics wrought by elevation, air density and humidity, I'm all ears.


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Bullets are much more easily stabilized in thin, dry air, as typically found at higher elevations in the West. In thicker, wetter air (like that on the seacoast of Alaska), they're more diffcult to stabilize. A spinning bullet starts out of the muzzle with the point wildly gyrating, then "goes to sleep" within a certain distance, with the point forward. Extra air resistance, caused by denser, damper or even colder air, keeps the bullet from going to sleep as quickly, and in extreme cases may even prevent it from completely stabilizing.
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<br>This effect is well-known among target shooters, but not among hunters because most (not all) factory hunting rifles have twists faster than required for most bullets. The main point is that if you use a slower twist that theoretically barely stabilizes a certain bullet, it may not stabilize under certain atmospheric conditions. Which is yet another reason to choose a slightly "fast" twist in any custom barrel.


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I had my .35 Whelen built about 4 years ago by Hill Country Rifles here in Texas and at the time I had the same question. I just left it to the experts there and after they asked what weight bullet I would primarily be shooting, they suggested a 1-10". I have loaded 250 gr Hornady RN and SP and have many 1/2" groups with velocities a tad over 2500 fps. This is going to be my primary rifle for my upcoming plains game hunt in S. Africa in July. I plan on loading the Swift A-Frame and plan on taking everything with it there. I decided to hunt all my whitetails this year with my 250 Hornady loads to get some more trigger time with it before heading to Africa.
<br>
<br>I'll agree that 1-10" seems to be a little steep but it seems to working just fine.




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Mule deer, overstablization is not the myth you think it is. This subject was one of much discussion a couple years ago over on another site. Doc Howell explained the workings of gyroscopically influnced projectiles quite well. In a nut shell a bullet must be stable enough throught rotation induced, Gyroscopic, balancing to maintan a nose forewards flight. IE; follow the earth pointing foreward not with a nose up attitude. A bullet does not travel in a straight line it falls to Earth so in order to hit a target at any range greater than point blank the bullet must travel in an arc. Here in lies the problem with twist. Twist inparts spin which is a gyroscopic force. Should a bullet spin too fast it will maintain a nose up attitude and as velocity drops off this attitude will make the bullet unstable as the air pressure on the bullets surface will not be distributed equally. In dense moist air this is even more prevelant.
<br>So a balance must be struck between bullet weight and rotation as well as bullet diameter. Play with a kids gyroscope and a bicycle wheel some time and compare rotating forces. Larger diameter bullets require less spin to maintain stability. Any way too much spin will not allow a bullet to track nose first as it cannot over come the gyroscopic force. And we must remember all this happens in less than a second. The bullets head for ground just as fast as if you simply drop it from your hand, that is 32 feet per second . Thats plenty fast. So how much evevation is required to hit a target at 100 yards, depends on the point blank of your particular combination of bullet and speed.
<br>
<br>Bullwnkl.


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To the top!!

Mike


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