Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Z-Hat and 358 Hawk

Anyone have any history/knowledge of Z-Hat or the Hawk series of cartridges? Hawk Cartidges
I am thinking a 358 Hawk would make a super nice short barrel thumper? Casey

I have a friend in Casper that had Zeglin build him a 240 Hawk on a Ruger #1. He was very impressed with the work and the cartridge.

You said,
"...I am thinking the 358 Hawk would make a super nice short barrel thumper.."



Perhaps.
Did you notice that the velocities were taken from a 26" tube..?


I shoot a couple of 35's... one is a Whelen, and the other (you guessed it) a 358 WSM.

Here is my thoughts on "Thumpers."
If I had the 35 Whelen before I had built the 358 WSM, I would have probably not built the 358WSM.
There is nothing wrong with the 358 WSM, it's a balistic twin of the 358 Norma.
However, the 35 Whelen is an incredible cartridge.

Here, read that again.., "The 35 Whelen is an incredible cartridge !"

Nothing wrong with the "Hawk." It's everything that the old Whelen is, just in a slightly more expensive version.

But, for the sake of argument, let's just say you could pick up another 200fps by using the Hawk instead of the Whelen, (not saying you could)...but, let's just say....
A 250gr. Nosler Partition, sighted in at 200 yards will hit 1.5" higher at 300 yards if it's going 200fps faster than it would if moving 200fps slower

That's it.

I would submit to you that the 358 Hawk is a fine cartridge.
I would not say that it is a vastly superior cartridge to either the 358 Winchester, or the 35 Whelen, or the 350 Remington Mag...any, and all would make for a "super nice short barrel thumper."


Sincerely,
Scott

Cinch,
Thanks for the info.

Scott,
Good point, I would have to really try to factor how much would be picked up over the Whelen, if any, with a barrel in the 20-22 inch range. What's your favorite bullet out of your 358WSM? Performance? What barrel length are you shooting? Sometimes these wildcats are more about the cool factor than the performance! LOL Thanks for the input gents, Casey

I had a 358 Hawk for a while. It is a good cartridge, but as 358WSM stated, not really a big improvement over the 35 Whelen.

And, it's an expensive proposition. Have you checked out the die prices? Plus you need to fireform the cases (blow the shoulder forward) and that costs money too. The only reason I had one was because I got a bargain on it used. Otherwise, I would never have put that much into it.

Wildcats are totally a "cool factor" thing. All of the really meaningful ones (and some that weren't) have been legitimized long ago.

So if "cool" is worth it to you, have at it. Otherwise snarf up one of the Ruger Hawkeyes in 35 Whelen on Gunbroker for around $500.

_

Disadvantages:
1. Cost of building a wildcat, barrel, dies etc.
2. Fire forming brass.

Advantages would be:
1. Increase should be around 150 fps over Whelen.
2. Minimum case taper, shorter neck giving more room for powder.
3. Make 358 Hawk brass from 30-06 brass.


Owning a cool wildcat, Priceless

I know where you may find one for sale.

I, too, looked at the Hawk series, specifically the 358. I ended up taking the cheap route, doing a 35 Whelen AI (my riflesmith had the reamer, so no rental charge, shipping, etc.)

I can't give a field report (yet), as it's not completed, but I'm excited. I put an Adams & Bennett Midway special barrel on it (24") and had it cut down to 22".

Agree with both the 35 Whelen and, if you want more, 358 NM ideas as preferable - at least as powerful (in 22" bbls) easier and cheaper. With respect to Z-Hat, my own experience was such that I wouldn't send repeat work there.

Orvishunter,

You can't skirt around the "4 to 1 Rule."


There is the matter of physics, and bore expansion ratio, that always plays into a consistant increase in velocity.
When you use the "SAME" rifle, and the "SAME" barrel, reguardless of length the actual velocity increase for the 35 Whelen from the standard version to the Ackley Improved version translates to about 40FPS.

Water capacity for the 35 Whelen is 63.1 grains when a 250 grain Hornady SP is seated to the cannelure (actual useable powder space).
The 35 Whelen Ackley Improved version will increase the case capacity to 67.2 grains of water when the same bullet is seaed the same way.
The increase space for useable powder capacty then is 6.5%.
Divide that increase by 4%(approx velocity increase per powder burned) and you get 1.6% more velocity out of the cartridge.

A 1.6% increase in velocity will yield approx. 40 FPS.


Let me say it to you this way, The improved version(s) give you 6.5%-7.5% increase in powder capacity over the standard 35 Whelen cartridge.

Now Max Pressures for the Whelen when burning IMR 4320 are reached somewhere near 55 grains, when pushing a 220 grain partition. Velocity = 2502fps approx.

For the 358 Winchester, Max pressure is reached near 47 grains of the same powder, and the same bullet. Velocity = 2390fps approx.

That is a 14%-15% differance in powder for a 112fps increase in velocity.

1) "IF" the increase of this "Improved cartridge" was even twice as much as actual, you would then still only get 80fps increase over the standard Whelen.

2) The idea that there is a problem with head space in a 35 Whelen is not supported by fact an is a Myth. There is also no problem with the head space on the 35 Remington either, although the differance in neck to shoulder measurements is even more slight, .015 less than the Whelen.

3) The 35 Townsend Whelen is a "Wildcat, and has been since 1922. Remington was wise enough to standardize it in 1988, so now it is a "Standardized Wildcat"...so to speak...Lol. You will note that Remington, in their moment of wisdom, did not seek to change its design.
It seems that Griffin & Howe weren't fools after all.


Finally,
I didn't mention this to you, but for a "Cool Factor," the 35-284 is a wonderfully practical Wildcat, that has not been standardized.



Scott


To add...and answer,

My favorite(s) out of my 358 WSM is the 225 Barnes TSX, and the 225 Swift A-Frame.
My barrel is 24"
Velocity 2930 fps.

Thanks Gents! And I thought that physics classes would never mean anything to me!

Scott is you 358 WSM on a long action??

For a short range gun have you looked at the 375 Scovill? It is a 9.3x62 case necked up to .375 and should fit your needs up close and out to 300 yds.

No sir, it is not.

It is actually an old Wby. Vanguard. (originally chambered in 243 Win)
It came with a McMillan forest green color stock.

I had Pac Nor build the barrel, and Wyatt's in Oregon did the bolt face.

Now that sounds interesting. Advantages other than ease of bullet procurment?

MtHtr,
Sent you a message on the possible where abouts of the Hawk. Casey
PS Looked at the 375 Scovill, but figured go with the 375 Ruger if I go that route.