Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 45-70 - 400 gr Speer or 350 Horn?

Hi folks,

I'm revisiting my 45-70 loads. I've shot the 400 gr Speer for years in my 1895 Marlin as have 2 others in our bear hunting group. One thing I've noticed is that sometimes the 400 gr Speer's doesn't exit on bigger bears (300+lbs). I've only shot 1 bear with the 400 gr Speer and it performed well but was a smallish bear (~200 lbs). I've shot lots of 400 gr Speers into things - clay banks, phone books, boards, etc. They expand to the size of a quarter which I think impedes their penetration. My long time 45-70 load was 49 grains Re 7 under the 400 gr Speer. In hindsight, it was likely a little warm. Recoil would get your attention.

I also shot a bear with the 350 Hornady RN about 20 years ago and wasn't hugely impressed with its performance - basically drilled a caliber hole through the bear.

I called Hornady this AM and they said the 350 FP would expand down to velocites of 14/1500. Speer did not recomend their 350 FP but were pretty high on the 400 for obvious reasons.

I shot some of the Horn 350's this past weekend to the Hodgdon max of 54 grains H 4198 and broke 2200 ft/sec. They were "brisk" as folks like to say. A little too brisk for me in the sub 8lb Marlin.

My rifle shot well at 51/52 grains H4198 and was in the 2050 - 2100 velocity range. Even given the anemic BC, they still arrive at 100 yards traveling 1700 ft/sec.

What has been your experience with both the 350 Hornady FP and 400 Speer on bigger game - elk, bear, moose? Especially when shoulder bones get involved.

Using Speer 400g My 450M knocked down a Buff at 85 yrds one shot, Red Deer Hinds too.

Not sure if it exited

If you want 100% penetration you need a harder bullet...I like a 425-550 gr hard cast lead available from many bullet casters like Beartooth, Cast Performance, Oregon Trails, Jae-Bok or a jacketed with thicker walls like Hawk, Swift, Hornady, Woodleigh etc., NOT over driven in the velo department.

ANY bullet can have it's pointy nose bobbed off flat and work in a levergun and NOT affect the normal hunting range or accuracy of a levergun. Bobbing off the nose of a spitzer or RN just enough to to leave a .0.250" 0.300" flat will expose a BIG hunk of lead and turn it into a VERY effective expander cum penetrator. I use a small chop saw I bought at Harbor Freight to do the bobbing now...band saws, grinders, small saws, etc in the past. TRY IT FIRST before going anti on it. I've been doing this for many years with leverguns, pistols, AND rifles...it DOES work.

The net is full of descriptions of just about EVERY bullet available and every proponent of ANY bullet is adament in singing the praises of their particular love. Do some searching, lots of good and bad information out there.

It's the old argument...penetration or expansion.

If you're taking you game cleanly and quickly with your present bullet, I don't think EITHER argument take the prize and I wouldn't change to another bullet...but maybe a bullet that will do BOTH is the answer...there are plenty of those out there also.

I have several 45 cals...bolt, lever and single shot including a switch barrel Marlin 336 with a 45-70 bbl rechambered to 458 American. I can shoot BOTH 45-70 AND 458 American cases in it but the American feeds so much better I don't bother with the rimmed jobby.

430 gr Lazer Cast Tru-shot are the only bullets I use in that rifle now. They proved to be the most accurate, highest velocity(for a Marlin) of all the various brands I tried. They also are the most accurate in my 45-120, but NOT in my BLR 450 M or 458 American SMLE for some reason...the BLR likes a 500 gr cast lead bullet I get from a local bullet caster and the SMLE likes Swift, Woodleigh and Hornady 450-500 gr jacketed bullets pretty much equally.

Choices, choices...ALWAYS choices.

temmi - what velocity you driving those Speers?

NFG - agree on the universe of choices. I have not tried hard cast lead in the 45-70 yet - was hoping to find a good jacketed bullet, one I can find about anywhere.

My issue isn't that any of the bullets won't work, but when dealing with bears, they are notorious for not bleeding. Shoot a bear in the lungs and have it do the typical 20-50 yard dash in Canadian bush or PA mtn laurel and it takes a while to find them. I prefer 2 holes in all my animals.

I'm not about to change bullets for the heck of it but am always open to anything that may work better.

Thanks.

I'd go to a 405 or 425 grain hardcast, like NFG proposed.

I've used the 425s at 1650 fps, and it takes a WHOLE lot of animal to stop them. I've also played a little with the 525s, but I kinda feel like the 425s are about the best weight for that cartridge in regards to bigger critters, until you get to "absolutely huge".

Have a call into Marshall at BTB to discuss his 425 in the 45-70. I'm leaning cast.......

Good bullet.

Marshals at BTB is good people to talk with and there are a few very good articles on the 45 cal AND 44 cal bullets he makes.

I've been using/trying several of his GC's in 35, 44 and 45 cal in my various Marlin switch barrels.

Read the article on the 525 gr Pile Drivers...that will make your eyes widen a bit. That one works very well in my 45-120, splitting lodgepole pine logs into kindling....hahahahaha

My 50-90 Sharps likes his 590 gr "Maxi-Pile Drivers". At ~1950-2000fs they are awesome getting after the lodgpole also, haven't hunted with it yet. The 475 ge 50 cal bullets look a bit stubby but I can hit 2250 fs with a bit less recoil.

My ideal bullet would start out 45-50 cal, penetrate into the central cavity, then open up to twice cal diameter and exit taking a twice caliber size plug of meat leaving an unobstructed "leak gush tunnel". Don't know exactly HOW to build such a bullet tho'.

Jacket and cast both have their pros and cons so again...Choices.

I think NFG pretty much hit the nail on the head when he mentioned "penetration or expansion". Doubtless there are probably hundreds of bullets in 45 cal. that will give you plenty of one or the other. My choice has always been penetration. I have an NEI mold that throws a 480 gr. bullet when cast of 25-1 that I simply love. The meplat is 35 cal. and it looks like a huge Keith type semi-wadcutter. Nothing has moved more than a few steps when stuck in the boiler room with that bullet. I agree with others, take a look at cast bullets. Given what you've written I don't believe you'll make a bad choice whichever way you choose to go. Good luck...and shoot a big black for me....doesn't appear I'm ever going to get to.

Every rifle I have now or have had in the past has one and no more than two basic, highly accurate loads for it, that usually get checked out yearly. I also keep a box loaded standing right next to the rifles barrel in the rack, plus a magazing full in the rifle.

But I'm an experimenter/builder first and foremost and can't sit still, I HAVE to try almost every new bullet that come on the market, plus continuously fiddle with weird and odd things like turning my own bullets from brass and copper and continuously changing bullet designs. Some work well and some make me laugh.

People continually ask "WHAT IS THE BEST BULLET FOR...." or just "WHAT is the BEST...." There is NO SUCH ANIMAL anywhere on this planet...there is just the CONCEPT of a "BEST" in our minds.

I prefer to think in terms of "better than...maybe" and fit the bullet to the game, caliber, conditions and specific hunting style.

We've all been brainwashed with that picture of a "perfectly mushroomed bullet" and now that ugly old and mangled cup and core bullet that has been taking game all over the world for how long is anathema to us.

The price of progress is skepticism, suspicion, uncertainty and mistrust. We no longer believe what our eyes and experiences teach us.

But maybe that's a good thing, because without having those thoughts all those excellent "premium" bullets wouldn't have happened.

I haven't shot anything much larger than a sagerat or the odd 'yote in the wrong place for many years and don't expect to for the balance of my years, I am surrounded by game animals most of the year and study them all the time.

Venison and Antelope are OK but hardly tastes different than a nice tender young goat once you slather on the BBQ sauce. I don't know HOW many times someone will come up to me and say "you shore can Q venison/antelope" or "give me that sauce recipe, this venison/elk/antelope is excellent" while they are munching on a hunk of goatmeat someone brought along to add to the flavor. I have a hard time trying to separate one from another once the meat starts walking all around the Q and I loose track of which is what. It don't matter to me...it's ALL good.

I am EXTREMELY fond of Elk, and famous for showing up just when the meat packages show up from the butcher or AFTER all the butchering is done, angling for a handout, but Elk to me is no different than grass fed beef butchered right off the range. In many cases the beef is MUCH cheaper considering the cost of an Elk hunt for most folks. I can't eat horns, so I only take headless when I hunted. I would rather leave the "monarch of the forest" to continue breeding fine stock than be killed for nothing more than a trophy to hang on a wall to say "lookee here what I did".

A rancher DOESN'T kill his prize bull just to hang it's balls on the wall and say what a fine bull he WAS and how many excellent calves or breed stock he made, while he munches on a steak. WHY do we do the same with our game animals??

Besides in many areas now, there is WAY too little game being hunted by WAY too many CRAZY, mindless hunters....I stay the HE** away from the woods during hunting season, just to be on the safe side. Playing in rush hour traffic is MUCH safer.

Enjoy what you do and do what you enjoy, but don't get stuck in a rut...trying new things like bullets and rifles is much more fun. Hahahahahahah

Well said NFG. As an old rancher I really appreciate your "prize bull" comparison...lol!!! Good one! For the first time in 45 years I didn't go deer hunting last season. First season we had extreme winds...and I HATE to hunt in the wind. My favorite, muzzleloading season, I spent sicker than a dying dog. Learned I didn't miss it nearly as much as I thought I would. I'll go again, no doubt. I'm fortunate in that I hunt private land but there are plenty of idiots on neighboring places.

For many years I tried the newest powders, bullets, cartridges and rifles that hit the market. 20 or more years ago I started doing the same thing with progressively older and older technologies. Learning more and more about how it was done by our forebears....and their forebears then their forebears. I'm stuck in a rut now from about 1770 to about 1880....I kinda like my rut....lol!!

The French would say, "A chacun, son gout." Roughly translated -- To each his own. I have found a hard cast (home cast) 405 grain water quenched wheel weights bullet at a meagre 1300 fps will penetrate like a freight train. See no need to drive them so fast that my ears bleed. YMMV.

I hear Ya'll....hahahahaha...the french have a way with words. I had visions of roundups, the smell of burned hide, cows and cow "stuff", sweat, hot iron, wood smoke and the taste of an ice cold beer and deep fried mountain oyster appitizers that were so vivid I could taste them while I was waxing philosophical. Seems like only yesterday.

I started out a wild-eyed speed freak...and still am to a certain extent today, but along the road I DID learn...took a while. Some get there in time, some miss all the fun.

I like my smokepoles but HATE cleaning...ANYTHING...so I have only 5 cases each for BP. My 50-90 Sharps is TOTAL fun to shoot as is my 45-120. Dropping a 500-700 gr slug close to a ground squirrel at a few hundred yards away and watching the gyrations they go through, makes it very hard to keep shooting with tears in my eyes from laughing so hard...it's VERY hard to consentrate.

They never seem to connect the bullet whack with the boom and white smoke of BP or relatively slow moving bullets. I know some are aware of my presence because they DO keep an eye on my movements, but being so far away I'm completely out of their danger zone. Doesn't happen like that with any one of my hi-velo varminters...one shot and they're down for an hour or longer...those that have been hunted much, the rest just become magpie/crow/yote tidbits. Sometimes I see a head only peeking out of a burrow looking directly at me.The young and dumb stand up and look at the quickly approaching pill and await their fate.

Spitting 4000 fs plus pills at them is just plain murder and doesn't take much cogitating if the wind isn't tearing out chunks of sod, but visualizing the trajectory curve including the bend caused by wind on a slow moving, heavy, large surface area bullet with the BC of a pie plate, is a challenge. The imagined precession of the bullet around it's center of rotation is much more interesting to me that just pranging some luckless ratthing mindlessly.

It is amazing what a large caliber, hi mass bullet will do even at low speeds. I'm still playing with my 600 N.E. wannabee, NEF 20 ga rifled barrel shotgun using both plastic and brass cases. 6-700 gr turned brass slugs with a cup point and a cutting shoulder at similarly low speeds just plow through lodgepole pine rounds and deep into my "sandbox". I'm fiddling with a hollow cavity design I can fill with "tungsten sand" or lead to add weight up front. Weather had kept me away from my lathe AND range.

This game is so neat I see no reason to limit myself in ANY way...everything is just "better and better" with "best" being no where is sight.