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Took my 5 year old female lab duck hunting for the 4th time in her life (I sorta gave it up when she was 1) and the first time we actually killed more than 1 duck. We ended up killing 15 so she got some work in but as the day progressed she wouldn't bring the ducks all the way back to me as if on purpose. She would drop it like 5-8' away from me while I was in the blind We don't have that problem with pheasants where she's had 100+ killed over her. I had to keep telling her "Fetch em up" which is the command for bring the "X" all the way to me.

She didn't really like having to stay in her dog blind and wait even though we worked on her going in there so it's not an issue of her not being used to that "kennel". She's an extremely intelligent and headstrong dog who considers herself 1A to myself being #1. My thought is that she didn't want to have to go back in the dog blind but wanted to stay out and do her thing so she wouldn't retrieve them all the way. She has an incredibly strong hunt drive and is super competitive. If you look up "intense" in the dictionary you will see a photo of Roxy.

Thoughts and how do I fix this? I do run an e-collar on her. Mainly for "no whine" b/c she talks the entire time. You know b/c she's a woman. lol.

From your post the dog has not been "Forced fetched? You have many training issues in your two paragraphs to resolve. I never used an E-color for a dog to be quiet. An E-collar is a correction tool if used properly and not a teaching tool.. IE teaching a dog to be quiet.

Regarding force fetch..it is the foundation all other training it built on. Just like POTTY training our children is a foundation for future learning.

Doc

Second what Doc said. To fix it you need to train the dog with a structured program such as what Mike Lardy or Evan Graham offers. And would recommend joining a local hunt test club and train with a group who can show you how it's done.

Lewdogg21,

I have re-read your post and Roxy is hunting and retrieving for herself...not you. What you perceive as head strong I would call dominance over you. Does she place her paw on top of your foot as times??? Bet she does!!!

I also think you have used the E-collar improperly on her and doing so needs to STOP. She is fighting back the only way she knows how...being her own dog instead of your dog.
I would place her in "yard" work (back to basics) for two reasons. To give Roxy another chance to learn and for the both of you to work together as a TEAM.

One the yard work has progressed, I would force fetch her and then continue her yard training on force fetch, walking fetch
etc. You may want to send her to a Pro for some of her needed
re-education.

Doc

Doctor Encore has summed it up perfect. Very solid advice.

Will add I am sure someone that is from the non-force fetching crowd will be along to tell you that you don't need to train force fetching. I have seen dogs from both camps and the forced fetched dogs I have seen were always the better dog.

I don't necessarily agree that force breaking is a MUST with all dogs. I train in the old English style for the most part and very few of my dogs are force broke. HOWEVER it will yake care of a number of problems if necessary. A good natural instinct foundation along with a taught "hold" command, and reliable basic obedience training is the key with most dogs. If your dog was trained right from the get go, it sounds like you need to go back to basics with it go back to the chute and table for training sessions. work on the recall and hold commands. My bet is IF your dog was a reliable retriever in its first year it will come back pretty quickly. If not then look at force breaking BUT be sure to het help with this from an experienced trainer.

Good Luck and above all have fun.

Wow. Just Wow.

Different strokes for different folks.....I don't even train police dogs with 'force' or 'dominance' entering into the picture...and like a lot of gun dogs, they are pretty tightly wrapped.


Again, everyone has different methodologies....and their rationale for them.So please don't get offended.

I dont force a dog to do anything, when Im done training him, he's doing it because I made it a schittload of fun and he loves it. If indeed he doesn't love it( it happens...) Then you'll find me training his replacement, while he's lounging in a non-working home someplace.
During one of my seminars a gun dog woman piped up and asked " What do you do with a drug dog that wont work for you?"( This was also when she interjected something about force-fetching) And I answered simply "I find him a good home and get another dog"...

Ingwe, how do you teach / train / condition your dogs to work through pressure, distraction or adversity?







Lewdog- I'm not going to say to force fetch your dog, but she needs force fetch and ob both. And please don't make it about dominance or whatnot- don't even play that game. Set a high standard as a HANDLER not a PACK MEMBER, and go from there.


Also smart works is probably more in your wheelhouse than lardy.

That is a VERY good question, as it is one you face with virtually all facets of K9 training. The short answer is first off, anything that could be considered negative ( a distraction, a noise, etc.) is introduced incrementally, and at least the way I do it is pair it with a positive. If the dog is distracted by something, keep it at a distance first, and give him some of his favorite toy time. Gradually move the distraction closer and ramp up the game....basically rewarding him for NOT paying attention to the distraction.
In some high drive dogs this can be easy. i.e. We run into a lot of dogs that have issues with slick floors. On some its as easy as throwing their ball across the floor...on others it has to be done as outlined above.
I train gunshots the same way, have the gun fired from a distance when the dog is on the bite ( usually their favorite thing) Gradually move it closer as training progresses.Again, some dogs are easier...Ive even had some on a good game of tug as a puppy let me fling them around with one hand while firing a pistol in the other.
For drug dogs we have to proof them on food, so they are not distracted by it during a search. Same thing here...make sure their reward for finding the dope is more important to them than the self reward of snarfing the food. It is common for dopers to hide their dope in fast food bags and a well trained dog will rip through the bag and show you the dope, ignoring the food. ( Admittedly...harder with labs )
Check out the anti-poaching dog thread I put in the Africa forum. That dog has some kind of eye disorder and is virtually blind, he's HIGH drive and because of his sight is almost immune to distraction...actually quite a bit easier to train for searches)
Basically it boiled down to making whatever their job is...the bite, the track, the dope, more interesting and more rewarding than whatever distraction pops up. It helps ENORMOUSLY if you can raise the dog from a puppy and socialize it extensively....that way what might be an occasional distraction is a non-event for a dog thats seen it a hundred times... I trained my dog on variable surfaces, tunnels, dark cramped places etc when he was eight weeks old by playing in those environments.He literally didn't know enough to be afraid of that stuff, and never became afraid of it because playing on it was fun.
Sorry for the long winded answer.....

pics:"


Tunnel




Uneven surfaces:



Slick floors

We in the retriever world would call all of the distractions that you outlined as "factors." I Think o factors as essentially anything with a coercive nature, be it a distraction, or a crosswind Ina water retreive that blows the dog offline. A good part of teaching a dog to fight factors is exposure, and since dogs don't generalize there learnins' too well, there really isn't ANY replacement for a high number of exposures. So I follow you. I dot take any issue with the length of your reply, but I am curious about how / when you establish "accountability" in the dog? That's fairly general and here's a specific. How do you handle it when the dog scarfs the food, rather than leave it alone and point out the dope? Also- you address some of the passive distractions , but what about adversity?

Good questions all. Accountability comes into play when considering the dog for certification. If he is not capable of a great many things, he wont certify. Certification carries with it quite literally accountability that has to stand up in court. Hard to outline here but it requires a dog that is spot on. They can usually be certified for the street at around 18 months.( very generally speaking...)
As far as handling the dog when he snarfs the food, chases the cat etc. What I do is back up in my training, sometimes to basics...the pet people call it a "leave it" command. Reinforce the 'leave it' by re-directing the dog and rewarding heavily for the proper actions( which are to focus on you or the search) Granted there will be that occasional dog that never gets over the food thing( again the importance of early socialization...if you didn't have the luxury or raising the dog, it may not happen, theres a neurological reason for ingrained behavior..) And thats when you go to my first post, and get another dog...
Adversity is also an excellent question because we deal with it in spades in K9. I will use the example of a combative suspect.( thats about as adverse as it gets) Again it goes to extremely early training and socialization. A good breeder/trainer will take the prospective K9 pup from about 5 or 6 weeks and begin playing tug with it, stroking the dogs head and body all the while to get him used to being touched during the tug.As training progresses the tugs get bigger and harder, as does the touching..the dog now gets stroked with sticks and hands and some pressure is applied. More progressive and the tug morphs into the bite sleeve, the trainer morphs into basically a human tug toy. A whip or baton is wielded, and glancing blows given the dog on the bite. Again the whole thing is a scenario of incremental introductions. The end result is a dog on the bite that you can have a real fight with, and it doesn't do much more than ramp him up.
The key during this incremental introduction of adversity is to maintain the dog in prey drive.Prey drive goes by many names but its all the same thing, ball drive, play drive,positive fight drive etc. As long as the dog is enjoying what he's doing, he's controllable. If he goes into defensive drive, he may very well shut down or worse, become truly aggressive, and true aggression is uncontrollable. ( for instance in prey drive our cert. standards are for the dog to release his bite "out" within five seconds of the command being given ) If the dog has gone defensive...he wont listen and he wont release.
Again it all goes back to taking a negative and pairing it with a positive, done properly it can actually act as a motivator. ( Which is why you see our bite decoys screaming, flailing weapons and acting aggressively towards the dog...the dogs love it!) I have decoyed a lot and a good dog can kick your ass big time one minute and literally be rolling around with you playing on the floor the next.

How do you avoid training the dog that scarfing the food gets him another try, with an even better possibility of payoff?

Again, drop back to basics in training, put him in a situation where he can't reach the food ( set him up for success, don't LET him fail) and when he so much as looks at it, redirect him and reward him. Again its an incremental process and gradually you should be able to get him to walk right past the food-in reach- and continue his search.
The key is not letting him fail by your actions, and rewarding him like crazy for his.Too many folks trust the dog too much too early. Put him in a position ( out of reach) where he can't possible fail. As the increments close in, if he pays more attention to the closer food than he did last time...back up a couple steps in your training to where he was doing it right.

See below..

I'm a huge believer in setting dogs up for success. There are especially certain times, situations and lessons that absolutely demand a first time go, or become setbacks or hurdles that must be overcome. Backing up and simplifying is an excellent way to train puppies, it is also an excellent way to clarify your Intent to a dog that is unsure of your expectations.

It sounds like a significant component o your program is controlling the environment to prevent the dog from making mistakes. are the end users to simply continue training around situations which they can't control?

I picked the food in a dope bag because you brought it up and it's a pretty good example of a dog being asked to rely completely on abilities tied to there instinct, while specifically not giving in to instinct. Complicated stuff for a mere dog. Your answers were interesting, you talked about proofing while also talking about avoiding situations where the dog might fail.

Let's back up to an easy one. Pup is 9 months old, you say sit- he stands there staring at you with tail wagging. Or.... Same pup "alerts" or whatever to some dope- you say "sit" he continues to stand leaned forward in th harness and maybe panting a little cuz he's high drive and love his job.

You can't back up from this point and simplify. You can back out and teach the dog that compliance is his decision or you can enforce the command.

You made an interesting observation...I can't tell you how many times Ive told my students " If you can't change the dog, change the environment..." If the dog can't open the refrigerator door, put a knotted rope on it for him...

On your pup too wound up to sit...it is a common problem in teaching a passive indication ( sit) to a dope dog.

The way I do it is an extrapolation of basically all dog training.Again, its incremental. Stuff the toy ( i use a kong whenever possible) with dope, put it under your foot and let the dog see you do it. He's all excited and not listening to a word you are saying, scratching at the foot, jumping around etc. In a quiet calm voice say "sit" and repeat it...and nothing else at about 3 second intervals. Eventually the dog is so frustrated that he's willing to try anything, which includes listening to you. He sits....and needs to get immediate big time positive reinforcement. About three times and he is starting to get a clue that the quick way to his toy is to sit. In this phase he can see, smell, and touch the toy.
Next you go to a line of three milk crates. Put the loaded kong under one and start him on the line search. He will see/smell the toy and go nuts trying to get it. Again, put your foot on the crate and say 'sit' quietly. He catches on pretty quick! In this phase he can see and smell the toy.Putting your foot on it is a piece of the scenario he recognizes and it jogs his memory of what to do quicker.
Next is a line search with 3 or 4 cardboard boxes, loaded kong under one. He recognizes the line search scenario, can't see in the boxes so his instinct to smell for it kicks in. Again he might get crazy trying to get it, but again put your foot on the box and elicit a sit.
The bottom line is you are conditioning him to sit in order to get his reward. Neurologically when that conditioning is in place it is called a limbic system response.
Contrary to what you said, you CAN back up from any phase of that, and we often do. Dogs with years of experience will sometimes decide they'd rather scratch than sit, or do something else. At this point I literally go back to the beginning, kong under foot, and elicit a sit, with heavy rewards. Because the dog recognizes this scenario usually about 5 minutes of this 'tuning' dries up the issue. Enforcing the command, at least in the way I train, is counterproductive. If he doesn't have fun doing it, and do it of his own volition his performance can be erratic. Erratic performance does not fly when applying for an affidavit for a search warrant, or establishing PC on a case thats going to end up in court. Basically the dog has to be nuts for the work ( or in this case play..) or he isn't going to make it. We like the kind of dog that will do anything including following simple commands to get his reward.