I am shooting a Mathews Switchback LD with a 32" draw, full length arrows, and 100gr Thunderheads. Its quiet and accurate but noticeably slower than other bows I have shot around. How much does speed matter when bowhunting?

Compared to how well you can place an arrow in the vitals? Not much...

Closes up your pin gap if you don't think range estimation is as important as it should be.

Keeps the price of bows up for the speed-freaks that have to have it.

JMO, the Switchback is one on the best older bows ever made by Mathews.

Hitting square and slower will penetrate more than fast and off skew. That seems obvious until you listen to some dude bragging on shooting superlight arrows at animals and how fast they fly.

There's a balance of energy, arrow weight, spine and head weight to make the two nodes of an arrow fly straight and square.

Usually if you up the energy, use a higher energy bow, ect you will need to change the arrow setup to balance and contain the new level of energy. Generally this adds weight which affects speed... penetration improves, which in hunting is the prime factor.

So with the correct setup you may not see a huge jump in speed but a substantial jump in KE and penetration.

Of course if the setup now is a very heavy arrow that can absorb much more energy yet... then ya...

It's one of those questions that seem simple but isn't.

Kent

Well, for the other side, Texas deer, speed does make a difference of where the arrow hits vs where you aim.

They move before the arrow gets there. So faster is better.

But we have old bows, circa 90-94 round wheel mostly. And have always limited shots to 15 yards and under. Old slower AL arrows and heavy broadheads I've had to aim at the bottom of the chest at 15 yards, to hit where I need to.

MOve to lighter heads, and carbon arrows and you can hit almost where you aim.

No clue what our speed is though.

Beyond that as AH notes, its pin gap or drop, but range estimation is done by rangefinders these days so not such a big issue as long as your deer hold still for the shto.

I have the SWBXT, it's going 270 with 425grain arrows at 28.5" draw at 63lbs

You should be faster then that with a 32" draw?

Faster then 270 is very fast, be thoughtful on what you consider is fast when watching "other bows" not every bow is managed properly with the correct arrow weight.

I have seen enough people shoot the lightest arrows to get 300plus FPS. I would not use them for hunting anything more then a whitetail. Even Deer would be better managed with more weight to the arrow.

At indoor 20 yard ranges those arrows seem astonishingly fast to the target. But none of us hunt at an indoor range. My old 270fps switchback shoots clean through every bear and elk I have taken. Even bears up to 506 lbs. My Luminocked Arrow on video shot through the 400lb bear a week ago with hardly any hesitation.

Speed is mostly important for longer range shooting and the indoor range "cool" factor in my opinion.

I think speed would matter more for Western Hunting and Mule Deer or Elk than here in the East from a tree stand for Whitetail

Kinda what I was thinking.

I personally don't think you can tell the difference between a bow the shoots a arrow 20 ft fast than another bow in the real world of hunting without a chronograph . Kind of like the 6mm Rem verse 243 or the 30-06 verses the 308 . Like Hillary said, what does it matter

Location for me doesn't matter, a 40 yard shot limit is the same in Idaho or Virginia.

I think the speed-need was fueled by the marketing hype done by the bow companies, but the need for repeatable tuning and sustained accuracy has replaced some of the weighted factors in bow purchase decisions by the hunters/shooters.

So I do not need to be in the market for a new bow? Haha.

Accuracy and quietness are my first choices,speed helps in distance but for me bow hunting is a close in affair.

Well, I went on a bow-shooting experience over the last few years, and tried several of the higher-end speed bows (Reezen, Monster, Z-7, CRX-35, Prime Shift and Centroid). None were as quiet, or as forgiving as my Mathews S2, and I'm back to 1-2 bows for the season and the range. If you can stick the arrow where you want it, and be quiet on the shot, no.

If you want to experiment with new bows...well, the Classified section is always an option later...

I personally don't shoot at deer over 30 yards , but with my compound i can hit very well at 40 yards , but just to much can go wrong shooting at deer at long bow range . Hate taking a chance on crippling a deer and losing it . With my Long Bow i like 20 yards and under as my limit on Whitetail. Where i place my tree stands for Bow Hunting a 40 yards show would be the longest one i could take with most a lot closer. Bow Hunting to me is getting close and make a killing shot, if not i pass the shot for another day, but this is me and know others like the longer shots, but i will the long shots for target practice.

How much? Just enough to get there...and pass through.

Amen, nothing sucks worse than watching a deer run off, wondering if you had a solid hit or not. Plus, with the aging of the eyes, I'm not seeing the twigs and such like I used to at extended ranges.

I've only had one deer duck an arrow, and doubt another 25 FPS+ would have made any difference, he was a smart sum-buck..

probably just a reaction as he lower himself to jump and run and you your aim was right on , only if you had held a little lower .

Bea175

That is my feeling exactly. Archery was and is still in my opinion about the purest form of the hunt. Planning to be where they are before they arrive, or stalking in close with your skills VS their ability.

It's a close range affair, to me at least needs to have that eyelash visible adrenaline rush to mean something to me. I am primarily a bear hunter, wish we had pigs here they would likely become my main target.

There is just something awesome about seeing a bear at 12-18 yards searching for what he knows is "off". Watching him open his mouth and taste the air with his tongue, nose held high deciphering every molecule of the air to sort out what he knows is odd or peculiar.

When they stand on hind legs to get up higher and look right into the wind. I have been able to smell them from my stand with the wind correct. I know that with the wind wrong I would be busted!

Then having to draw the bow without him seeing movement. How I have wished my targets were further on occasion so I could at least move to draw the bow! How many times the draw has to be timed with his pace as he walks behind a tree.

Then once at full draw having to wait on the facing front leg to take that one last forward step. It's about the rush to make this happen at point blank that makes me addicted. Shooting 50 yards and beyond is just not even close to the same as this!

Great shooting is admirable, but great hunting is what I am impressed with.

Speed is famous for making you miss quicker. Tom

I think bow speed is over rated. There ain't no bow even close to the speed of sound so the deer is gonna hear a loud bow no matter how fast it is before the arrow gets to it. I believe quiet precision with the bow is the way to go no matter what the speed. My slow azz bow sends a 475 gr. arrow through enough whitetails most every year to fill my freezer and put some nice horns on the wall.

I look at speed like this. Im a short draw archer. 26 3/8" to be exact. I shoot a 70# Invasion that pushes a 400 grn arrow to 290fps. My bow is forgiving. Its quiet. No vibration. That speed is important to me. As for others its just a matter of who wins the pizzin match around the shop chronograph. For others, a fast bow means you can get close to same arrow performance while dropping DW. Do you have to shoot 350fps to kill an animal? No. Will that extra speed benefit you any? Maybe. Could mean hitting a deer even though you underestimated the range. But as for warp speed being necessary, nah. Its a matter of personal preference

My fastest bow chrono's about 185.

Maybe, but back east you have to "thread a needle" sometimes 'cause its so damn thick. Chuck Adams has never been a speed freak.

Thanks everyone. Looks like my Switchback LD will make it a few more seasons before I search for another Mathews.

It's very important to me and I shoot recurves. I don't like slow bullets or slow arrows.

My bow is tuned to perfection for this falls elk hunt and chronoing right at 153 fps at about 6 feet. I have zero doubts about its effectiveness. In case you were wondering that's a 630 gr. Arrow with more then 20% foc. You boys and your training wheels make me shake my head.

Never ever shot over a chrono.

But my bet is I don't have a bow much faster, MAYBE 200 fps max.

Lets just cut to the chase here.....Speed Kills but SILENCE is DEADLY. There its settled

I believe in most states a #45 pound bow is legal to hunt big game. If not then let's assume it is. What arrow weight and front of center would be needed to get the best penetration on a deer?I will say a 400 grain arrow with 15% FOC. The arrow speed would be slow, accurate and lethal at maybe 200 FPS.. Now if you take that SAME ARROW and increase the bow draw weight to #60 or #70 pounds then the arrow speed would jump to 280 FPS. Being a flatter shooting arrow, but the weight and FOC has not changed.
I know this is a simple thing but I believe lots of folks drop arrow weight to get speed and then lose penetration. If you want a faster arrow then build up to a heavy draw weight, but stay with an arrow that is sufficiently heavy for big game.

Until you get an arrow faster than the speed of sound, the animal can still move before impact.

But the faster, the less it could move.

Had a fast bow in the late 80s when cams were getting hot. No chrono but it was way faster to the butt, then others bows. But so damn loud no matter what you did, it just wasn't going to cut it.

I agree with 280. Be quiet, make sure the game is calm, make sure your shot is good and make sure your broadheads are SHARP. I've killed game with a 35# draw recurve as a kid. Good arrows matched to the bow with sharp heads and a well placed shot. I nearly hunt exclusively with a 20 year old, hand built long bow that by modern compound standards shoots as fast as a turtle. But, guess what? It puts meat in the freezer every year faithfully. I wouldn't sweat the speed.

Stickbow, well said!

I tip my hat to you for being a traditional archer and hunter.

Thank you. However, I was like most starting with a simple recurve as a kid then giving into the compound craze. I ran compounds for a stint then decided I wanted hunting to be more than just shooting. Nothing against anyone who shoots a compound as any game taken with archery gear is much more well deserved. It's just how I prefer to hunt and when all is said and done getting out there is the most important thing be it gun, crossbow, compound, trad or even empty handed.

Hitting slow and off skew is worse. Certainly the Switchback is a nice bow, but you would be amazed at how well you could shoot a "Chill" and the speed is definitely a bonus, but the smoothness in the draw and the absence of hand-shock when you shoot it will compensate for the price difference.

Ill give up the "training wheels" before long. Want to kill one more good deer over 150"with my compound. Then Im going to a recurve. Met Fred Eichler a few weeks back. Spent a good deal of time discussing trad bows. Of course he spoke highly of the Hoyt Buffalo. And it is definitely on my list of bows to try

I just laid down $1k for a Matthews Creed (with accessories) and it is one of the slowest of the newly introduced higher line bows at 320ish fps. This bow was chosen for the smooth draw, the dead solid backstop, the quiet operation, and it fits me. It's easier to draw 70# on this bow than it is 63# on my old Diamond. Giving up 20-30 fps was a no brainer in this case.

It seems like the natural progression of things. I started with a plain jane no name recurve while in the scouts. Then of course much like rifles the bigger, faster bug bit me. I've owned Oneida Strike Eagles, Matthews, Hoyts, the whole line up. Then I bought a commercial trad recurve, then a custom built recurve and then I bought a no name, hand built longbow that was to say the least built by someone who knew what they were doing. At my draw I get about 68# out of it. Like I said, nothing at all wrong with compounds, I just seem to be retrograding back to the simpler things in life. I even bought an old bamboo fly rod. Something about it that I just can't explain.

Fred also uses Palmer recurves, which is actually the bow he shot his entire Super Slam with. I own two Palmers and they are excellent. check them out.

I got 30 fps this year for free, even though that was not what I was looking for. My primary focus in choosing another bow was smoother draw, a longer brace, shorter ATA, and more letoff than my 2000 Ultra Max.

The Athens Accomplice 32 gave me all this, the most solid back wall I have ever felt, as well as increasing my arrow speed from 245 to 277 fps.

The cherry on top, this is at 62 lbs, with a 400 gr arrow, and is very quiet, much quieter than the old Matthews it is replacing.

I wasn't looking for speed, but it was a nice bonus. My 30 yard POI moved up more than foot.

Athens makes some top quality bows for sure. Enjoy the flatter trajectory

Plenty of critters killed each year with 170fps Trad Bows - accurate shot placement is key no matter how fast.

Yeah, wife shoots a 25", 49# draw bow (Bear Homewrecker), and she has smoked three deer with it. Shot a doe 2 yrs back that hit the back hip after being deflected by a branch and the Muzzy MX-3 cut cleanly through the onside hip and exited the other ham. Amazingly the deer was down dead after somehow going about 40 yds.

I shoot pretty quick compounds and a pretty slow longbow (50# w/ 620 grn. arrows). The broadheads from the longbow will penetrate and kill as well, or better, than those from my compounds every time. The question is whether I can hit the intended target. This is where speed is an advantage. One of the hardest things to make bow hunters understand is that speed (minus mass) adds nothing to the lethality of an arrow.

Im not sure what you mean by that,but ,take a 500 gr arrow at 150 fps,versus one at 250.
the faster one will shoot flatter,and penetrate deeper.


How can that add nothing?

What he is saying is fast featherweight arrows just wont penetrate like a heavier arrow will even if the heavier arrow is at a somewhat slower velocity. Speed and KE dont mean schitt. Momentum is what brings home the bacon. A superlight fast arrow may give a high KE number. But upon impact there isnt ample momentum so its like a crotch rocket hitting a wall at 100mph. And for those that cant think or understand the illustration, no the arrow may not actually stop but it certainly wont penetrate like a heavier arrow will. Ill take a 400+ grain arrow with a 15-17% FOC @260 fps over a 350 grain arrow with a 10 or 11%FOC @ 310fps any day.

Right...a 40lb longbow will shoot a solid fiberglass fishing arrow through a steel drum. A 70# coumpound shooting a 350 grn carbon will bounce right off.

Another reason why speed is one of my top priorities. I shoot 30-1/2" MFX Classic shafts with Simmons Screw On 190gr Tree Sharks which comes to 570grs with 19.9 F.O.C. and 12.0 G.P.P. at about 174fps. I could shoot light set ups at around 200fps..rather go with all the benefits of a heavy arrow up to the point of too slow..arching flight.

The way I shoot my recurves I can look at where I want to hit and out to right at 25 steps the arrow hits the mark with some zip on it.

Past that I have to start holding over....99.9% of my shots at deer are 15yds and less.

how long do you have to bbq those steel drums before they get tender?
Im mostly interested in targets I can eat.

and ,its a good thing the dang barrel cant get out of the way very fast,that fishing arrow will take awhile to get 30 yards,seeing how you'd have to shoot ten feet high to drop it in there.
it would still penetrate nice ,though.

Speed. How important is it? It isn't important at all. With a bow they say speed is accuracy...but only if you can handle it.

I started off shooting recurves went to the dark side for one year. Thinking I could kill better with a compound. (read speed kills into that) Heck everybody was using them. That year my freezer went unfilled. Switched back to a curve and my freezer has been full.

For me bowhunting isn't about shooting game at long distance (over 25 yards) that's why I have a rifle. Bowhunting for me is to get closer and then get 10 more steps closer. Speed means nothing to me. At 10 feet I don't care if my bow is shooting 170fps or 200fps. Now if we want to talk power that's a different subject.

I just weighed my carbon arrows, with a 100 gr broadhead they weighed in at 462.97 grains.
with the Bear archery Encounter bow with an IBO rating of 310,using these calculators stickem calculator I should be getting around 230 fps,which gives me about 54 ft lbs of KE.
how does that stack up?
oh,and my FOC is 8.8%.

I also weighed my aluminum arrows, easton 2117 ,same length,521.7 grains.

Think custom when you think traditional. I've shot and owned a lot of factory recurves over the years. And done well with them. But they pale in comparison to my Brackenbury. Worlds of difference there.

And since for some reason compounds that cost 100 in the 80s now cost 1000 the customs are not that expensive in comparison.

I plan on shooting several. Got to find the smoothest, most accurate, best feeling, FASTEST recurve out there. The ability to completely take down the bow, the fact that the Hoyt does extremely well with carbon arrows, and the ability to tiller tune make it very appealing. Or maybe Ill just learn to shoot a compound instinctively. That way I can keep my speed lol

I buy custom recurves and they end up costing me right at $1,400.00 for a stick and string. That's one with speed to push fairly heavy arrows with big wide broadheads..2" wide, fast enough to get good penetration with no more than 50lb. draw weight.

I'm sure the Hoyt Buffalo is a fine bow, but IMO you'd be much better off going the ILF route. ILF = International Limb Fitting.

The Tradtech Titan riser with any of the upper end ILF limbs sounds like the ticket for you.

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/tradtech-titan-ii-17-ilf-takedown-riser.html

My brack fits in a hard arrow case.... it shoots carbons just fine. I've yet to shoot a factory bow thats even in the same league. Of course this hoyt could be the example.

But folks buy what they consider the best in compounds, no matter the cost, and then when going trad, they skimp and wonder why...

I still remember trying to shoot a pearson longbow years ago. Actually hurt my hand to shoot it, the shock was so bad. Never did get good with it. While a custom long bow would be WAY different.

Animals shot with arrows succumb to organ/overall system failure through blood loss from hemorrhaging created by sharp azz blades put into vital organs and tissue. Keep your blades sharp and your shots true on unsuspecting animals and all will end well. Speed and KE is for boolits and rifles. It is a much wasted verbiage in the stick and string game.

True, the KE number is over-hyped to some extent, but speed is useful, as a flatter trajectory and shorter flight time lends itself to accuracy, especially within 30ish yards. Makes yardage estimation less critical.

Speed is overrated when it comes to bows. I mean it's fine if you can achieve it without it costing you too much in other areas but that can be hard to do.

Many bow companies boost the speed of their bows by adding really aggressive cams but they can make the draw cycle really harsh. This may be no problem on flat ground in your back yard. In 20 degree weather, 25 foot up a tree, in bulky clothing that harsh draw cycle may come back to haunt you.

They also often boost speed by reducing the brace height on a bow. This gives you a longer power stroke and more speed. But it also means the arrow is still in contact with the string longer after your release. This will greatly amplify any imperfections in shooting form and accuracy will suffer.

I'd way rather have a quiet easy to shoot bow slinging an arrow at 250 to 260 fps than one that launches arrows at 320 fps but sounds like you dropped a paint bucket on a hardwood floor with each shot.

Silence and accuracy kills in the bow hunting world. Speed? It just impresses the people who hang around the bow shop a lot.

My wife shoots a 26" 600 spine easton axis, helical fletched with 2" blazers, 23" draw length, 100gr NAP thunderhead, out of a Parker Sidekick Extreme @ 51 lb draw weight. It's quiet, accurate, and tuned well.

I have no idea what KE numbers or speed she has, but a slightly quartering away shot on a 3-4 year old mule deer buck at 16-18 yards, the arrow stopped in the offside shoulder bone and the deer went about 100 yards in a few seconds before piling up.

Using a simple homemade selfbow, that only clocks in the 140-150 fps range, on a steep quartering away ground shot, I sent an arrow clean through the base of the off side scapula, splitting it into two pieces, while using a fairly heavy, well contstucted arrow, having a strong 2-blade cut on contact broadhead. So no, I do not think speed is of greater importance than mass and construction of a well tuned arrow, especially if slowing things down a tad adds forgiveness and/or quietness to the overall performance.

With the mechanics of a wheel bow, you have a vastly deeper well from which to work compared to my low horsepower selfbow, but the same principles apply. As for deer jumping the string, my Grandfather gave me some sage advice in my youth for arrowing a deer that applies equally well today, regardless of arrow launching device:

We should all know to seek shot presentations that expose the vitals on a relaxed deer, but Grandfather taught me to execute my shots when a deer is multi-tasking, such as feeding and/or tending a doe while taking a step. He proved to me, and I've since proven true over many decades, a deer will have less tendency to react to the shot when multi-tasking vs not.

Best

Quiet will trump speed almost every time. Shootability / forgiveness in a bow is worth less speed as well. A real fast miss is still a miss.

I started out hunting with a bow and shooting archery tournaments when 80lbs was needed to get a super light arrow going close to 300fps out of a compound bow and many of the bows still had wood risers. As the bows have progressed and gotten faster, a 60 lb bow will do what those 80 lb bows tried to do, and do it quieter and with less fuss. But no matter how fast the arrow is going, or how quiet the bow is. The sound of the bow will still reach the deer before the arrow does, and in south Alabama that deer will be moving as soon as it hears anything. Even at speeds above 300fps, on a 40 or 45 yard shot, they can take one step while the arrow is in flight and bad things result.

After having problems with rotator cuffs in recent years, I have turned my bow poundage down so that I can draw it without any unecessary movement, just hold the bow out with my left hand and draw straight back with the right. I shoot a heavier arrow than most, approximately 525 grains. I don't know what poundage I'm pulling, only that it is comfortable, and I don't know what speed I'm shooting, only that the arrow hits on my 20, 30 and 40 yard pins as close as I can hold them. Or anymore as close as the blurry sight pins will let me hold them, and don't shoot at whitetails past 20 yards unless the wind, or conditions allow to muffle the sound of the bow. My arrows go completely through whitetails without even slowing down. Getting close is what bowhunting is all about and 3/4's of the fun for me anyway. Deer will always get just outside of your self imposed yardage limit to tempt you to take a shot that could be marginal.

So the way I'm doing it now, what I don't know, poundage, speed, etc, doesn't hurt me. And I'm not tweaking, obsessing, cranking this down or changing that around to get those extra 5fps that I used to think were important, but in reality, for where I hunt in the Southeast, don't matter as much as stand placement, knowing when to draw and where to put the arrow. It has made bowhunting much more relaxing for me.

If I could just get to that point with rifles, I could sell all my stuff and just hunt with a .30-30 for most things and use a .30-06 for my heavy gun


My .02,
Bob.

Something to keep in mind for those obsessed with chrono numbers. A perfectly tuned bow(that means bow/arrow/shooter) will be faster and quieter than one thats not. More energy is more efficiently transferred to the arrow and less sent vibrating through your bow and accessories.