Posted a while back about my new project but I will mention again for those that did not see my last post.

Recently got a like new 257 Weatherby Mag Vangaurd in 257WM. Unable to source brass at a reasonable price I decided to make it out of once fired 264 Win Mag brass. Seemed an easy step as I annealed and ran the 264 through the 257 RCBS resizing die and brass looked great. I had some marginal success with a full charge of H4831 and 80gr Barnes ttsx's but was getting flyers in my groups. I suspected that it might have something to do with concentricity so I barrowed a gauge and checked the 20 rounds I had loaded. Seems the best neck was right at 3 thousands out and worst was 10 to 12.

I will admit to being a little lazy on resizing and I am sure that has cost me as I did not lube inside of neck on every brass. I did on some and I always spray 1 shot towards inside of necks when I lube.

My question is that I have 250 re-sized brass that I am sure most are going to be out of spec as far as being 3 thousands and under run-out. Is there a die that I can use to straighten them out?

Thanks

HeavyBarrel

The brutal truth is, lazy and precision don't mesh well.

Ya gotta fire em in your chamber and then delve into what's inducing the run-out. You may need to turn the thick/thin out of your necks if I'm reading your problem correctly.

There is also a laundry list of things that make flyers.

Necked turning cases on my 300 Weatherby Mag made no noticeable difference with standard deviation. Best accuracy comes with near max or max charges. Recently I bought a Lee Collet neck die to see if that helps and it works great with my .30-06 and my 270 Winchester. Redding dies are really good dies. Neck tension improves considerably with my 06 and 270, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with doing it with a magnum cartridge unless you load them one at a time. However.... I would suspect it would effect pressures and ultimately effect accuracy.

Yes I do understand the lazy part! Lol And I do understand other issues causing flyers and am trying to eliminate them 1 at a time. I was looking for the Tru-Angle tool but notice that it must not be made anymore? Curious if a collet type die could be used to straighten the brass I already have resized? I have used LEE Collet dies in the past to produce great shooting reloads but I noticed that LEE does not make one for a 257WM. I do have one for a 25-06 and have read somewhere where someone has used it successfully to neck size 257WM by adding washers under die?

I plan on neck sizing fire-formed brass from now on and see a few options as far as dies and would appreciate advice on the best?

Thanks

HeavyBarrel

No advice to give on the lee collet dies, never needed them.

How thick are four points on your necks? Can you find thick/thin on them? Best with a ball mic if you have one. You necked down from 264 to 257, so there's a chance you created thicker necks. So it's possible you can turn down to a concentric .013 or .014 neck thickness. Just floating that old school option out there.

I make 243 and 260 brass from Lapua and Starline 308 hulls. This gives me a pretty thick neck that I then can turn down to the .014 that I like to use with .002 neck tension. Maybe it's. 013 that I turn on them. Been a while and I'm not at my notes, but anyway, you get the idea.

Try to determine if it's neck thick/thin causing the run-out. If not then it's your die/press throwing things off. Honestly though, trying to make concentric ammo with brass that's just been formed in dies and annealed is gonna be tough. Pretty much the same scenario that factory ammo presents. Measure factory ammo and you'll see what i mean. Like I said, other than the thick/thin neck thing, firing in your chamber first, THEN hunting down the problem, is probably the best way to go. You might just see most of that TIR just go away after the first firing.

(On aside, there's hardly any neck or neck thickness on a 300WM to start with. Paper thin. I've not a clue why anybody would even try turning them even thinner.)

On the Lee collet neck die, I would think the washer trick on your 25-06 die would work just fine. Also no harm in trying I would say. Size, rotate in thirds and resize again twice is a good technique with the Lee collet die.

I guess I could start with 2 thick a washer/shim, smoke or color neck, decrease thickness of washer/shims until I get desired depth correct? Sound like a decent method??

How are the Redding Neck Dies? Any experience??

HeavyBarrel

Yes smoke neck to see what’s happening. Also be mindful of any differences in neck length between the two cartridges.
Redding dies are all well made and work well. I only have them in full length so can’t comment on the neck dies.

The maker of the Trutool posts here sometimes, he wrote a while back that he had stopped making them due to the cost of materials.
IIRC, in one of JB's articles from years gone by, he wrote that he had drilled the appropriate sized hole in his loading bench and accomplished the same thing. You could try that.
I'll tell you from personal experience, if they are along way out you will have a tough time getting them straight. And the Hornady tool won't do as well as the Trutool.
Here is a suggestion that might work. Take the expander out and size a few of them again. Then replace the expander and expand the neck when the ram is going up. Screw it down far enough that you can expand the neck without the case fully entering the die. This is a good method to follow any time, you don't run the risk of making the cases crooked when pulling them out of the die.
Not sure if the Lee Collet will help you, it would be worth a try if you can find the proper size washers.
Not sure that neck turning would help, I'd bet against it.
Worse case, you fire form and do a better job next time.

ETA: Redding S dies are the neck dies you'd want. Not the normal neck dies, the S dies support the case so as not to induce run out.

On loaded rounds I'd have the indicator tip on the bullet ogive showing me the runout of the assembled cartridge.


Do you have an idea of how many thousandths the expander ball had to enlarge the necks on its way out?


There is something you can try that may help diagnose the problem.


Pick a few cases with bad neck runout. Take the expander out of the die and run the cases through it again. Check the runout on the necks, and measure their outside diameters as well. Put the expander back into the die. Lube the inside of the necks and push (then pull) them over the expander ball. Do not push the cases far enough into the die to size them again. What is the neck runout now? How much larger are the outside diameters of the necks than when in the sized but not expanded state?

There's no substitute for high quality dies.

I use Forster, other will do just as well.

It will certainly tell you a lot about your process. I bought the hornady concentricity tool to give me an idea how my loading was going, it will also help you correct one with an issue. Way less flyers since I started using it, I seem to have a few out of a batch that just get off. I'll run factory rounds through it too.

Try the ORing trick on the die, some folks think it helps keeps thing aligned. I've done it in the past, it didn't hurt.

The sizing die governs the outside dimensions of the case, correct? If the necks are thick one side, and thin the other, the seated bullet is automatically put off the center axis of the rest of the case body, correct? The only way to fix that is to cut the thick side off leaving the thin side alone or just BARELY skinning over it, depending on how much thick/thin from case to case. Then, after the next firing, the axis of the neck interior will be in line with the axis of the case body exterior. Which puts the bullet in line with the axis of the case body. If concentricity is an issue, that's one contributing factor that can be minimized or eliminated.

Good post. That's the way I'd attack it as well. I agree, probably a non issue once fireformed and necks turned. TIR should be minimized going this route. That is if his loading equipment is not introducing a concentricity issue. Making sure dies are adjusted properly is always one of the first steps in producing straight ammo. Furthermore, a lot of guys don't understand how important straight ammo is for achieving the best precision because they don't own a concentricity gauge. They are in the dark, so to speak.

The concentricity gauge sure opened my eyes. I have been loading for about 30 years and never ran into a rifle that I just couldn't get to shoot decent with tailored handloads. No competition grade accuracy but plenty good for hunting.

Thanks for all the advice above. I wish I had not prepped all the brass already and probably have induced excessive run out to them. Was hoping there was an easy fix, like just running them back through a neck die.

I may just load them up with as mild a charge as I can and shoot some of the cheaper bullets out of it and just fireform them all. I will check run out of fired brass through my rifle this evening.

Thought I was close and may be with concentric brass as it was putting 3 in a pretty tight cluster but would sometimes through an unexplained flyer. Yes plenty of cooling time between rounds and groups.

Gun is factory other than Rifle Basics Trigger and quality mounts and scope so when I get the concentricity thing figured out I can at least rule that out as an issue. Next is new stock that is free floated.

HeavyBarrel

Sounds like you will get it sorted out. I'd also check case capacity as well. Hopefully the brass you are using is from the same lot? Also remember you can minimize run out by fine tuning your sizing die adjustment. Mathman used to give detailed instructions on how to do this. I run run of the mill RCBS dies and generally load ammo that is .003" TIR and less. So again, the guys saying you need high dollar dies are wrong. Hate to keep throwing that in their face, but they are trying to get rid of an issue the lazy way and needlessly throwing money at an issue where you don't have to. The concentricity gauge is a must though, as you said, it can be an "eye opener"..

First off, John Barsness wrote a series of books on reloading for hunting rifles " The Big book of Gun Gack " The chapters on setting up dies should be studied as if you will be tested on them. Those two chapter are worth the price of the books alone.

On this forum, a guy was getting a large amount of runout using 30-06 brass with Redding 338-06 dies. So I measured the runout of my resized from 30-06 brass using a Lee 338-06 die. I got 1/2 of what he did. That might have explained my less than stellar accuracy, at around an inch. That was my start of the concentric ammo quest.

- I reread the chapters
- I bought a tubing micrometer and used it ( it's tedious as all 'L )
- I annealed cases
- I improved the design of my jig for checking concenticity.

I had from the very beginning of my reloading understood the problem of necks, it's just common sense, and had cleaned and lubed them.

I can not emphasize too much the importance of those chapters.

If they are under .005 or .006 when you stick a bullet in them, I would just load them and shoot.

I have several rifles that will shoot rounds with .0005 runout and rounds with .005 runout into the same group at 600 yards.

The degree of runout sensitivity on a given rifle seems to be bullet/chamber dependent. I don't know why...I just know that some of my rifles/loads are agnostic to runout at .006 and under. I aim for .001 or less but once in a while sh*t goes wrong.

Outside neck runout means nothing. When your expander pushes through, any unevenness is pushed to the outside of the neck. It is loaded ammo that matters and it should be checked at the ogive if you’re going to check it.

I haven’t noticed a difference in SD or precision with runout in the 0.006” range. Some people report it makes a big difference in their rifle, but I question the tolerance of their load and their chamber.

Lee Collet dies produce less TIR than a Redding neck bushing die even with unturned necks. Forget the washer trick on the collet die. Drill the recess deeper in the aluminum cap which allows the collet to close more for better sizing before it makes contact with the mandrel. A slight cam over does away with the "handle pressure" per Lee instructions.

Give that diagnostic routine I outlined a try. It may well help point the finger at the right thing.

Inconsistent neck thickness is minimal with a Lee collet die on my brass. under a .001

A mild charge might take longer to form than you think !!

Lee collet dies do not affect the uniformity of the neck thickness.

He's loading for a 257 Weatherby. Published maximum charges were developed for factory style chambers/throats that have a bit of freebore. A max charge with the bullet in the lands is a fine way to achieve excessive pressure.

A agree a mild charge isn't what he wants for fireforming.

Simultaneously turn and ream the necks. That process generates a consistent thickness.

And it's not 257 Weatherby brass to start with.



Some folks are better off taking advice and not offering it.

Didn't see what the original die was to reduce the necks. If it was a neck sizer that is where your runout came from.

Yes they do......there is considerable less TIR when I indicate them. But hey you don't have to take my word for it ! I indicate them between the slot the collet leaves on the neck. Even though I polished the inside of the collet the best I could, slight impressions are left on the neck. As long as you stay away from them while indicating, you're fine.

ooops sorry about that.... LOL apologies. Get a grip man, you ain't perfect either !!

Indicated runout on the outside of the neck and neck thickness are not the same thing.

Poppy cock. I used to use a tube mic, and TIR does the same thing. Whats the difference if you put a neck on an anvil measuring with a spindle verses on a pilot on a concentricity tool and indicate with a dial indicator ? ! nothing. And the spindle really isn't conformed to the curve on the neck like the anvil portion. Splitting hairs here friend.

The "lightest charge that you can" may disappoint you. It takes some pretty serious pressure to move the brass around. Wimpy loads will likely just confound the problem. After being sure you have the proper neck clearance, I would start about midway & work up until you find something that forms the brass well. Powders on the quicker side of the data will have a bit more snap than the real slow burners. Small batches until you see how it all works out before loading them all. I've been doing this for a few years now & recently had to shoot some pieces of reformed brass for a new rifle 3 damn times before they filled out enough to headspace properly. It's always an adventure & the PPU brass is rather stout. When I do the other 30 from this batch, I'm sure they'll be fine after the 1st firing.

Are the cases with the runout in your OP already fireformed?

After they're formed, you can fool with runout if you need to. It's a fool's errand trying to fix something that cant be easily fixed with unfired brass that's been abused numerous times, from the packaging machinery, to the monkeys at the USPS warehouse, to the guy with the loading press. Body dents can play hell with bullet concentricity. With a factory rifle & hunting loads the average shooter probably wont see the difference in bullet runout up to near .010". Going back 30 or 40 years, factory brass often had up to .006-.008" neck thickness differences in some lots. We still managed to shoot small groups & kill groundhogs at distance. Runout gauges are kinda like the borescopes of reloading tools... fun to play with & can be used to solve real problems, but create much ado about nothing scenarios more often than not.

If you need a few pieces of 257 Wthrby brass for comparison, I have about 1/2 of an old box unfired that I found rooting around downstairs last year.

Good luck & have fun.

RCBS Full length sizing die is what I used.

Generous offer on brass. How much for them?

Thanks

HeavyBarrel

You're thinking about neck wall sorting, like so:




He's talking about neck runout measurement, like so:

Yes

HeavyBarrel

What are you talking about? When sizing a case the collet never makes contact with the mandrel. On top of that, how does the recess in the cap affect the operation of the collet anyway? The recess is there simply to provide clearance for the "nail head" of the mandrel.

In my work, I had to see where the problem was. That involved using dial indicators, mics and even feeler guages. That jig measure neck thickness not concentricity . Easier and quicker than using a tubing mic, but not nearly as fine. My tubing mic measures a 1/10 of a thou. That jig is also more expensive than my KBC house brand Chinese mic. Your reference point should be the case itself .

And others are talking about neck wall thickness too math major

Anybody have a giffy of a wheel stuck spinning in the mud?

Or a sinking ship?

How about a dumpster fire.

IDK do you farmer John ? You can't even find info that you think is so important, but you want other people to take you seriously ! You friggin JA !

IDK how anyone can take you serious... unless it just sounds good. yeah that's it.

Fired brass looks great as far as concentricity, at least the 4 or 5 I tried. Ordered an RCBS neck die today.

HeavyBarrel

And the expander ball will throw it out, good luck with that !

Yep, figured that.

Take a couple those 4 or 5 now fireformed brass and size them in your FL die without the expander stem and check what the runout is afterwards. Then put the stem back in and push the case up over it, check runout again.

They are, but as a source of the runout the OP is talking about.

And the source is inconsistent neck wall thickness that contributes to inconsistent case neck runout.... And for me a LCD solves most of that runout if not all, within .0005 to .001. AND that little bit left will not effect neck tension. TIR shows that. Do you own a LCD ?

Is she yipping again? If she cant inform with facts she tries to baffle with bullshlt.

No fire or ship... How's this?

Yipping, and whining like an inbred Shih Tzu in heat......

PERFECT!!!!

The homos of expertise !


The homo of expertise !

Here's what he said:



Are you trying to tell us the neck walls of his brass are so bad that they produce 10 to 12 thousandths runout?

What l am saying is what ever it is can and will be controlled well by a LCD well below .003 Comprenda?

Buy a die and find out for yourself. But l guess they’re beneath ya.

Running his brass through a Lee collet die won't cure the way they're presently bent.

You assume they don’t….and you’re making yourself look like an ass. Again mathman.. do you own a Lee collet die?

Very nice not seeing the drivel unless someone quotes her.

Another nit wit who thinks he’s above it all… oh what a great click we have here, my my.. narcissism at it’s best.

I sure do. Read the note in the pic.

Do not hold your breath Mathman.

I know the results l get, and to honest l could care less what you don’t get. Bitch, ain’t that rich. What’s the difference if l show you my dies. You still don’t agree that it takes care of runout, REGARDLESS, if it wall thickness. Do you anneal before you use the die ? Probably not.

I say it avoids runout being introduced in the sizing operation on fired brass that comes out of a chamber pretty straight. I've used them for many years.

If you could show a pic of yours, with an irrefutable personalized note to solidify their provenance, it would at least show you have one even if you really don't understand it.

I don’t understand…. Hmmm. That’s a good one. Any body can use a concentricity tool to indicate a neck, W…. T….. H….. does someone have to understand to know how to read a dial indicator?? LMFAO. You guys are really to much, you really are. Get a LIFE!

If anybody doesn’t understand how a collet sizes more evenly and consistently maybe, just maybe you aren’t as smart as you lead people to believe you are. It’s a very simple concept with a very simple design. AND to top it off, you have nothing better to do than over complicate things. Y’all come back now ya hear !!!

You don't understand how squeezing the neck with a collet die won't true up a case that's bent elsewhere.

Years ago I read an article where Boddington, I believe it was had a piece of machined steel he placed between the bottom of the die and shell holder to help square the die and shell holder and help to minimize runout.

Could have been Barsness though as that has been probably 25 years since I read it.

I do understand how, and what, it does more evenly and consistently. The italicized part is where your understanding is lacking.

I think most of what this guy claims as his own experience comes from plagiarizing podcasts and whatever he can Google up in a hurry. He's already said he doesn't shoot much, so his reloading is likely just as sparse.

That's if he's something other than just a random irrelevant troll on the internet.

Dial indicator doesn’t lie, yeah l don’t understand, uh huh.

I think you’re too cerebral for your own good

Post a pic of your runout checking fixture, with a personalized note included of course. Put a collet die next to it to frost the cake. Otherwise you're simply full of it.


I'm one of those somewhat technologically challenged old dudes people talk about. Yet it only took me a couple of minutes to smoke your question to me. So c'mon man, put up. Hang that pic.

The only thing that matters is that l do it and not you, and l don’t have to prove nothing to nobody but myself. Good niiiiiiight…..

Here Darling here’s what Accurateshooter bulletin says


Contact them and argue with them.

A LOT of folks don't realize how much a press affects runout. A press is designed to be precise on the up stroke where trued surfaces are resting against each other, ie the top of the ram and the underside of the shell holder. The down stroke is a crap shoot. And that has to do with the shell holder placed in a rather sloppy slot and held in place with a spring clip.

On the down stroke pulling on a piece of brass under tension, the shell holder lifts in the slot and all bets are off as to how its affecting the brass. Case in point it can be proven easily that pulling a neck down over an expander ball will induce runout, while one that is pushed up over the expander ball reduces runout dramatically.

Switch gears to tossing the expander stem in the trash altogether and using an expander mandrel die like the Sinclair unit I use, and runout is almost non existent. Pulling on a neck will bend shi t, pushing on one won't.

Before the Sinclair die and mandrels, for years I used a Redding floating expander ball and pushed my necks up over it. I would still be doing that if it weren't for tweaking on neck tension via bushing dies and different sized mandrels.

Coax presses and my vintage Rock Chucker is stellar in regards not to introducing runout.

In regards to mandrels, don’t care for them compared to the LCD.

I'm quoting this to preserve it. I agree with them, and in my widely appreciated instructions on how to set up a collet die I gave similar advice. Mine involved 3/8 of a turn, which if you understand the die you will know addresses the same thing they are talking about.

The fact that you posted this to counter what I've said simply amplifies the fact you don't understand the point being argued.

Post a pic, with a note of course.

Uh huh.. LOL

No

What's your neck tension with your LCDs?

I have noted an influx of new posters who don't post proof pics but are full of advice and knowledge.


Most turn out to be spiteful little shits with some small experience.

The only recourse seems to be roust them a bit and see what shakes out...mostly it is a shower of shit but occasionally some turn out to be genuine.

Stick your pics.. there’s plenty of info out there without pics, dope. I’m sure if you look hard enough on you tube or anywhere else you can have your fancy tickled to your hearts content.

Little [bleep] huh, or you being a big [bleep] with a big mouth.

You
Quoted and preserved, and proof of the pudding.

Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.

Well, if that's directed at me, what would you like to see a picture of?

I'm sitting in my reloading room right now mounting a scope on a Marlin 336. Finished up the 30-30 and 444 deer ammo last night so nothing to reload at the moment.

The only pudding l know is your brain being mush

Um no you friggin dope, you don’t use collet dies, remember??

You’re in the pen… too late, dope!

What about standing outside of the pen and stinging his ass with a slingshot?

Wasn't even remotely responding to YOU, but since you insist a picture is worth a thousand words.

Right it is then...you are indeed a spiteful little shit.

Guessing you are the pussy sock.

I was talking to you about the pussy...you I do not take issue with.

10-4 just checking, me being a new guy and all.

You are the main one

I’ll leave you to your elementary antics, gotta show pictures….you want a crayons too with the pictures too?? Mommie will pick you up soon sweetie!

You are sooo petty...




...I am too.


Okay anotherpussy...post up or piss off.

I’m petty? Being petty is children on play ground full of little babies who wanna argue over what someone else is doing that thier not, and want them to do it thier way. I tell you what l do, and you want proof. We’re not in a laboratory in HS with a teacher who want to analyze everything we do.. but it seems you can’t accept the kid next to you that got a better grade, and didn’t know what you did to get it.

Nah, why should l try and keep up with some young kid in an old man’s body? GROW THE [bleep] up fat ass. Take a bath and clean your finger nails

Lol

Not about keeping up, it's about you proving you even reload.

I don’t reload

C'mon man, post up a pic for a shred of cred.

Hah...post them up anotherpussy...if you can boy.

Then why would you ever consider offering advice on a subject you are clearly illsuited for.

What for? WTH should l care what you think?

You believe that, l’ll tell ya another one,LMAO

I handload precision ammunition that requires detailed procedures.

I've seen some addled mofo's on the www before but this cat takes the cake and then some.

He is just another know nothing sock 'without a camera'.

I’ve been had,sh it, what am l gonna do now ?

Don't do it for me. Do it for yourself. Be less of a douche.

Then why are you so desperate for attention?

Bullshit.

Grow up?

That is the stupidest thing l ever heard, do it for myself??!! You frigging brain dead bastard, the Dr dropped you on your head when when you were born. I handload for myself DH not for you

Wannanuther shovel maaaaate!

Why just because l don’t buy into your BS ?

It's about posting a pic you dense knob.

You ignorant homo, what do you know? You don’t even know who l am. Stupid bastard.

No pics no proof.

If I were I would have all your money.

Awww ain’t that ashame. Don’t cry! 😪

That is an interesting piece of paper. My daughter is postulating that it is letter paper?

Sounds like you have the same mentality

You do not seem to understand that your word is no good...as in zero credibility.

And you did that to yourself.

You’re wasting your time running your mouth about what you think about me. You think l’m gonna do what you want just because you don’t agree with the information l put out or how l load ammunition ???!


l’m still gonna post regardless what anybody thinks. There’s some who agree and some that don’t. And l was told by people l know personally who don’t post but just read, what’s on these forums. So l don’t give a sh it what you think or anyone else. You really think nobody cares what l have to say? Again some do some don’t and l really don’t give a sh it about the ones who don’t.

Sorry, not ignoring the question. Had to take a nap, had been up and at it since 0330 yesterday morning. Day off work today for Veteran's Day so I slept in a little.

Apologies too, for your daughter viewing the flying bird.

The paper is actually an ancient prehistoric target from times long past. I used to have a big box full of all kinds and sizes of such artifacts.

Gonna add you two to the thread tilted “ the most despised campfire members”

DONE !

Badge of Honor coming from the likes of you.

Ha...I have finally made it, infamy at last.


I would like to take the time to thank my mum, my wife, and my second grade teacher!


Oh for fuck's sake...AND my daughter. Sheesh!

for some one who supposedly has all this experience the only thing you have to show for yourself is an Area 419 press and a annealing machine.... LMAO Overkill annealing and overkill concentricity of ammo ! Yeah you got a badge of stupidity being sold on both market strategies ! And you broke my balls about my shell holder kit that actually makes sizing a breeze. Yo are one of the biggest JO's I have ever conversed with in my life. You make my late JO father look good !

Hey dickhead...what shellholder kit?

figure it out FF

Oooohhh...so nasty!

JS, you might rather piss in the wind. This fella has 0 learning value.

I hate to weigh in on this cluster of a thread, but what is being argued is an “opinion” or a “technique”. It is a matter of fact. Mathman is indeed correct in what he says. It really appears another gun doesn’t understand the topic at hand.

You will get runout simply measuring outside necks after sizing due to thickness variation, but not to the tune of ten to twelve thousandths. No matter how hard you try, the only sure way to fix the brass is to fire-form it to a concentric chamber and then size properly. A collet die cannot square up brass. All it can do is size it down and hopefully not induce any new runout.

Ah yes, daddy issues, that explains it.

It was only a matter of time before we found the root cause.

Thanks Mathman for solid advice. I just ran about 20 through my resizing die and necks went from anywhere from .006 to 12 thousands out to less than .002. Issue now is when I introduce the expander to the new straight necks. It goes from less than .002 to over .004, this is still much better and may be okay for hunting ammo?

If unsure what I have done, with Mathmans advice, is I ran crooked neck brass back through sizing die minus the expander and decapping rod. Then backed rod out to where the expander will just pass through neck, well lubed inside of course. Definitely improved what I had but obviously would love for brass to stay less than .002 after expanding.

HeavyBarrel

Good post

Huge improvement, and likely just fine as is for hunting ammo.

But, if you're like me you want it all out, or as little as the gear will allow.

Do you have a ball mic? I'm still advocating for thick/thin necks being a contributing factor and you might maybe have it narrowed down that far now.

How does the runout look on a seated bullet's ogive?

Maybe ask your pops if he’ll let you take a picture of his gear?

I don't have a ball mic. I have not loaded any yet with straightened necks but I will soon and check run out. I had about 40 already primed so I was waiting to see if anyone had any advice on keeping them straight. I ran the primed brass through resize die without expander so I at least got them back to less than .002. I did notice that if I chamfer and de-bur prior to running straightened cases through expander it help with concentricity a little.

The few I have ran expander thru I adjusted expander/decapping rod as high in die as I think I can, would there be a best location? Obviously don't need to have it down to where the resize takes place.

HeavyBarrel

When I was using a single die in a two step op I would put the expander as low as possible and still have it as straight as possible with the nut snugged down. Then, before I knew about expander mandrels I'd buy a second sizing die, install the expander stem again low so to keep the case away from the sizing portion, and leave it in the box that way. One die without stem to size, another to expand necks. Over kill, maybe. Extra $$ spent, yes. But it was just more streamlined with that second die.

Honestly, I'd load those .002" TIR cases and shoot em after checking and documenting runout on a seated bullet.

I think you're on the right path bud.

I get the 4 die Lee set, make a body die out of their FL sizer, use the collet neck sizer. I'm not real impressed with the Lee seater; I check concentricity with a Sinclair tool, correct runout with a TruAngle tool. Some Lee seaters seem better than others. A Wilson seater is hard to beat, just slower to use.

I've made .257 Wby rounds out of .264 and 7RM brass. With the 7RM you need to check for neck thickness, turn necks if needed.

Some brass is thicker on one side than the other. With the FL die, as you pull the expander, it can cause the thinner side to move more than the thicker side at the cost of concentric cases. The Lee collet sizer prevents this. When the rounds get hard to chamber, a trip thru the body die makes it right.

I check concentricity on any rounds I want to shoot MOA or better. Even factory ammo isn't always concentric; check it out. A MOA rifle may not shoot MOA groups with crooked ammo. Check that out, too.

DF

I generally do not respond to loading posts so please bear with me. For hunting rifles without tight necks I generally use either Redding or Forster comp seaters and Redding neck or FL dies with a RCBS stem and a Redding carbide floating ball which I raise high enough in the case so that part of the neck is still supported by the die as the base of the neck is just starting over the carbide ball...with molybdenum powder applied for internal neck lubrication.






Or just use an expander die.

That is where it shines, particularly when using garden variety "hunting grade" brass.

The gauge I made 25 years ago. It adjusts from 223 up to belted magnums. I can adjust/place the bearings to run anywhere I need them to on the case. I can adjust the indicator anywhere I need it to be, to measure whatever I need to measure. It has a "fixer lever" but I hardly ever use it anymore after going to bushing dies, expander mandrels, and comp seaters. The most I use(d) it for lately is culling out .0015" or more TIR into a "practice load" box. Match ammo was .001" or less.

It's currently set to look at 444 Marlins where I was making a new expander plug for a slightly oversized bullet.

I damned well knew you were a tinkerer...good to meet you fella.

Well, it's not for just fun all the time. Mostly I'm humped up over being too cheap to afford something I need, or something I need just isn't made good enough to suit me. So I whip out the fabrication tools and build me what I need. Fortunately over the years I've had jobs that gave me access to mills and lathes on off-the-clock time and that's made the gun tinkering a LOT easier.

I'm so entrenched in that way at my age I dunno if I can ever break me of it. Just got off amazon ordering two bullet molds I been wanting for a long time. Breaks my heart to drop that $$$. If I had the way to make freaking bullet molds I damn sure would.

But yeah, good to meet you too.

what because I don't agree with you? Or because I have my own way of dealing with how I achieve the results that are satisficing to shoot under an half inch group ? Duahhhhhhhhhhh gee I got a bunch of egos trailing my success saying it's BS ! LMAO

against your face. You ignorant SOB. I load and succeed with accurate loads. It may no be how you do it, but it doesn't mean I don't understand. it's not how you do it that's all. Accurate ammo is all that matters

At the price we pay for dies, expecting precision threads on the stems is dreaming. There are work arounds.

and reduces the runout but you still have some you can reduce even more. If you have a good platform to shoot out of, that little bit doesn't matter. .004 to .005 doesn't effect anything and can show good groups. On the other hand I reduce it as much as I can to remove the possibility and most times it on paper it improves.

Ok So I disagree LOL and someone will get pissy !!

You STILL use a expander ball ? I tried Forster FL dies with the ball by the neck and it doesn't help and induces Runout

Are you on drugs?

so what's your excuse ? LOL You're rough son, real rough. People have different ways and different techniques that....... you ready?............. WORK ! and you have no respect for that. That tells me where your mentality is, your emotional state is well below where it should be. You bash my shell holder kit. some thing that works and you argue that to the hilt because you ignorant. What about all the improvements you use that other people thumb thier nose at ? Area 419 press, which is over kill and alot of loaders don't use them and achieve the SAME results. You got issues that are not seen by you and probably will not be.

why because I don't agree with you ? LOL You need to change your signature. Just moved on from expander balls that's all.

Actually you moronic shitbag...I posted the picture of the press and have no idea about your shellholder kit. And I have no interest in perusing the babble you have posted to find out.

I repeat...are you on drugs?

but you wiiiiiillllll !!! You ego has you on a leash, barking your head off.


why tell you about my shell holder kit, so you can tare that apart like your new found buddy Feral ? LOL

ok... wth. Redding competition shell holder kit. Have at it. Is Boz from longrangeonly.com an d forum and found on you tube demonstrating them on drugs too ?

Suppose my standard shell holder and size die produce brass that is stiff to close into the chamber of my rifle. Will this set help me out?

This is a trap! this is a trap! this is a trap !!! setting back shoulders does. I never said setting up dies without them isn't the same thing, but I PREFER the shell holders. I makes MORE sense to ME to lock a die, instead of having multiple dies and use the shell holders for different rifles, make sense ?

I have a set myself...also have the Area419 set. One set is as good as the other.

And you are still a moronic shitbag.

And you are a druggie.

Will the shell holders help me set them back?

considering your track record of being in the same lump of JO's, find out for yourself.

So you don't know. Got it.

OI own and use them so yeah they set shoulders back ! Damn you guys are so special. Here hopefully this will end the controversy.



he doesn't take comments from JA'es like you fellers.

And the hits just keep coming.

Does anotherpussy know that if she wanted a dozen different shell holders all she had to do was buy a dozen shell holders? I've NEVER seen two that measure exactly the same. I've a nice collection of #3 RCBS for some reason, and had to mark each one and dedicate them to a particular set of dies because using another one would change the set back. On several different shell holders for the same cartridge measure the thickness between the ram contact surface and the surface that the case head rests on if you don't believe.

If buying a set of incremental shell holders floats yer boat then have at it, but know that setting up a FL die for a specific shoulder bump is as rudimentary as it gets. It requires only an Allen wrench to loosen the lock ring, a comparator/dial caliper, and the knowledge that brass grows in length as it travels into the die, then begins to shorten back when the shoulder makes contact inside the die. When the shoulder is bumped back to "as-fired" length it's a stupid simple job to just add .001", .002", .003" or .004", whatever, etc., more bump.

I see absolutely no sense in such a set of shell holders myself, especially if loading a dozen different chamberings requiring a dozen different shell holders. Setting up a die correctly is just not THAT hard to do, nor is changing that setting later.

Idiot.

and so is annealing without a machine.

Me


Sierra tech


Why don't you email him or give him a call and see how he responds to you kindness. LOL

And this sounds too time consuming to gloat in your loafsome BS.



5 shell holders, not a dozen, son.

Shell holders are a snap, PERIOD

Precision...bullshit.

as ignorant as ignorant can be....... never tried them but is sold on some fancy press that people really don't need

You are still a moronic shitbag, and you won't be changing anytime soon.

These things were old hat 25 years ago.



I have another set laying around somewhere but cannot be fucked looking for them as they are just old hat.

and old hat to a present day homo. Some things don't change and still work.

You are a liar boy, you don't reload anything and you sure as shit don't know stuff all about the subject, as evidenced by your inane replies and assertions.

You are just a drug addled moronic shitbag with delusions of adequacy.

Okie Dokie !! See ya on the forum

No boy, I have had enough of you.

You can go to ignore.

You're wrong again. The way I posed my question I had a regular shell holder not allowing for enough shoulder set back. If you own and use the set in question, or even if not but you understood how they are set up, you'd know they are made in increments of less shoulder set back, not more.

Even though you realized it was a trap you stepped into it anyway.

Hopefully your pops doesn’t know you’re running your suckhole to grownups on the internet.

another hypocrite. Grown ups you are far from, see ya in your sand box

DAHHHHHHH there's the increments stamped on the holder DAHHHHHHHHHH +010 Dahhhhh +.008 dahhhhhh +.006 Dahhhhhhh +.004 Dahhhhhhh +.002 DAHHHHHHH If you know,then why do you just LOOOVE to stir things up then ?, go back to you loft and stay there.

awww.. bye ! And I'm gonna enjooy disagreeing with you ! lol lol

So you admit that you really don't know what you're doing do you ! LOL

so's the old guy in the video !! LOL

Those positive increments indicate increases in height of the shell holder which correspond to decreases in the amount of shoulder setback applied when the die is set flush with the top of each shellholder.

My sport isn't stirring things up. It's providing a more and more vivid illustration that you really don't have a handle on these things.

Oh man, it's a good thing you set me straight bro, really I am so grateful !! So there is a difference backing out the die from the press, verses backing out, the brass from the die ? NOT !!!

Hey.... carry on troll

think we can make 11 full pages ? Come on, calling all trolls, calling all trolls ! !

It's incredibly easy for you isn't it....

Lube doesn’t help from how an expander ball distorts case necks. I got ideas from other loaders suggesting rubber washers between the rod lock nut and rod bushing of the die, to create the rod to “float”, which didn’t help.

Some necks, like yours, varied, not as bad as yours. Some concentricity tools aren’t as good as others, and throw readings off. I started with an RCBS case master. Stepped up to a home made one, it was better. Bought a Hornady tool. Was fair. A friend of mine made new spindles for a tighter fit in the bore casting. Huge difference.

I started to neck turn but gave up on SAMMI neck dimensions. Didn’t help accuracy one way or the other. Custom chambers it pays to true a neck.

Might want to check the tool you used first.

Can't help but notice a pattern developing here. And that's just from one comment. Whole lot of can't-do.

Guys I thought I was on the right track and concintric prior to seating bullets. Seating caused excessive run-out from under.004 to .015 to .020. Frustrating to say the least. I wish I could find some 257WM brass at a reasonable cost. My diving into resizing from a different case has been aggravating so far. Any ideas?

HeavyBarrel

Take some steps back and figure it out.

There's something in your seating process that's repeating with excessive runout, now you've found the point where it's screwing up. Just gotta figure a fix.

Standard seating die?

How much neck tension?

Use a better quality seater die and stem. A vld stem helps. Redding standard seaters are good.

I had rounds years ago so bad you can see the bullet wobble rolling them across the table.

Standard RCBS seating die. I am sure necks are thick being they are sized down. No good way of measuring other than calipers but I think it's about .012 amount of movement as I have took measurements prior to expanding and after.

HeavyBarrel

What do they measure on the neck with a seated bullet, ie, bullet diameter plus neck on one side and plus neck on the other side. The diameter of a loaded neck.

Ball mic works good.



https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012936822?pid=544254

Or this to check both neck and bullet concentricity

https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-050076-Lock-N-Load-Concentricity-Gauge/dp/B001KZ3NNK

Already suggested.

He doesn't have one.

Pay attention.

Raven Rock Precision has Norma 257 Weatherby brass showing in stock

👍

Not sure this will be useful. I milled my old Marquart to accept a Mitutoyo, this allows me to check case neck thickness and uniformity and adjust the cutter on the Marquart.





And since I already have the relevant bits and pieces I am covered, and I am assuming you have same?



Whilst taking those pics I found these...I knew I had them salted away somewhere...score!

If he buys that Norma brass finding a load for even a Vanguard is really easy.

What’s a matter fellas? I post how l anneal and agreed that’s how he does it. Do l hear crickets? I do believe l do. Imagine that. Whadda say Feral under score Americana?

C'mon Chucky, Bang the F---ing Gong already...

Just when l was starting to have fun ?

Nothing new… and why wouldn’t it be useful? Wasn’t it useful for you?

Good complete article here
https://www.6mmbr.com/casenecktools.html

Extra neck tension above .004'ish makes it difficult to seat certain bullets straight. Maybe grab some pin gauges, see where you are at for neck tension. We use alot of 7 Rem to make 257 Wby and using an expander mandrel has saved our butts in regards to concentricity problems.

considering this guy sounds brand new to loading, I seriously doubt he is above .004.... ?? ISH ?? And what neck tension do you think he's at with a standard RCBS die ? BEFORE I would tell him to buy anything, I would tell him to check the neck OD after a seated bullet. BTW? what is ISH? LOL LOL

I can almost guarantee the expander ball is distorting the necks ( the decapping rod/exander ball is pretty stiff as well as off centered if you look at the bottom of the die) on top of a seater stem that's not evenly seating the bullet correctly. However check the diameter of the expander ball, which I highly doubt is that way undersized. It should be .002 under the bullet diameter.


Seriously doubt the above that Ferel American wrote, is the reason...... in regards to uneven neck thickness effecting neck tension. In regards to what Beretzs said... about neck tension... do as I suggested checking the expander ball diameter.

You and all the techs in the world can anneal any damn way that tickles your fuc king short hairs. Never said you can't "anneal" with a socket and torch. Did it that way myself for a long time. WHAT I SAID WAS, you won't reach a level of consistency and precision without some form of mechanical advantage to eliminate the human error of judgment. Mechanical advantages, or "annealing machines" apply the same heat for the exact same length of time, and thus produce a consistent and precise anneal on the brass. The window for "annealing" brass case necks is too wide to achieve any precision with human judgement. It all depends on what your requirements and needs are. Some, like you are happy pretending that you "anneal". Others, like me, want insurance that we are hitting a benchmark every case, every firing. The ONLY thing we will agree on is that expensive machines aren't necessary. Not when you can gather up $75 worth of parts and build your own.

anotherpussy, go back and check post # 18918596, did you forget you responded to it?

I'll add too that YOU just suggested measuring necks with a seated bullet, then in the same post say I'm wrong about suggesting measuring necks with a seated bullet. You're an idiot.

The OP is necking cases down to a smaller diameter. This routinely produces thicker necks. There is a very real POSSIBILITY that he has more than .004" neck tension. You would realize this if you understood how a FL sizing die works, what happens to the dimensions of cases inside it, and the concept of "spring back".

I make 243 and 260 cases out of Lapua and Starline 308 hulls. I'm well aware of how necks thicken when sizing down. That is EXACTLY why I do it. So I can then turn a concentric neck to the thickness I want and control the process all the way through to the final result. With factory Lapua brass with appropriate headstamps we find thick/thin necks that when trued up on a neck turner, taking off only the thick side, results in necks thinner than we want. So the easy button for that is forming down 308 hulls and creating a thicker neck to turn down.

I honestly don't expect you to grasp any of this but we aren't trying to help YOU here are we.

hey made to 11 pages but I still have more post than you imagine than you, newb. Think you can catch up ?

To The OP...

I remember years ago when I first started on forums like this, there were guys on thier lofty clouds writing commentaries, paragraph after paragraph with a bunch of BS that really did mean much. Other, a few sentences that made alot more sense and was useable. As I went along I rarely got much from the commentaries but the short and sweet, maybe a paragraph.... made more sense, and conversed through email with them instead and moved on to learn and get better. What I achieve and the results I get are more than satisfactory.

Whatever the advice given here do what you will with it but don't feel pressured to do what someone thinks you should and if you don't they think lower of you, and..... criticize others who post with opposing views.

I know that any handloader whether new or advanced doesn't need a reply to this retarted post but it's fun to pick apart such stupidity...........................................................................................................


And a Redding competition shell holder kit, DOES THE SAMETHING !


Then why do you need the multiple shell holders then Moncho man... I bet you're one of the village people, arencha ! LOL LOL


with ONE shell holder.

Sure it can be done, but why bother when, cam over.... looooocking the riiiiiing, and write down with your load data which shell holder you used to headspace wiiiiiiith.

You're right it is ! We agree.... !! OHHH.....MY.....Gosh.....!!! Beave !! Yeah Wally, you're right, you're pretty smart for a kid !

I was going to wait till we got to page thirty but

It’s tough to analyze case run out from a keyboard. There are a number of benefits to Lee’s collet dies but if you have good brass that before neck sizing has minimal run out and are creating run out during neck sizing the two culprits are usually (1) the expander ball on the decap stem or built in mis-alignment between die thread axis and shell holder, or both. Expander balls are fine for sloppy Saami specs but carbide or not they can pull your neck walls out of concentricity. You should alway dip lube the inside neck walls with either Imperial dry powder neck lube or I still use the ‘ Motor-Mica ‘ automotive white graphite powder. Anyway anything to reduce the expander ball from grabbing the neck wall. I don’t like the wet lubes too messy. I also polish all my next expander balls both carbide and steel. Under a scope you’d be surprised haw rough their surface can be. The Lee collet system pretty much handle this though.

(2) though most shell plates float a bit by design some presses restrict this movement so as the case is run up into the die body any misalignment results in run out. A simple optical check is to set your die to a depth where the press handle won’t bottom out. Back off on the lock nut a couple turns then back off on the die until it just makes contact with the shell holder, just barely makes contact. Run the ram up and down several times and the die should move slightly due to the thread clearance. Now watch the die from two points about 90° apart and if the die moves just vertically that’s good but if it tries to rotate a bit then you have misaliignment. A simple fix for this built-in problem requires nothing more than a hardware store O-ring placed between the die collar and the press head. It allows the die to float a bit reducing any mis-alignment problems between the shell holder and die. The Forster Co-Ax press takes care of these issues nicely.

For accurate ammo that I want to exceed general deer/elk hunting accuracy as for varmints or paper I rely on my Wilson or Neil Jones hand dies as they eliminate press alignment problems. Hand dies are stupid simple and if bored to your chamber dimensions are fool proof. If 7/8-14 dies are to be used in a press and price is a big concern then Lee’s collet neck dies answer nicely. Otherwise bushing dies from Redding at more money will size your necks accurately with much less run-out issues. Remember any die will only size the outside of the neck. Bushing sizing is pretty straight forward but must be sized correctly and remember brass after firing springs back about .001” + - .

A tubing mic is the best way to measure case and case neck thickness. Cases with manufacturing uniform thickness issues are pretty much impossible to correct. You cannot redistribute the cases brass wall thickness from one side to the other. The inside of the neck can of course be reamed but this operation calls for good tooling and money. It’s been demonstrated to me and many accuracy minded reloaders that cases with uneven neck thickness also have the same issue the entire length of the case. Lopsided cases sawn in half, either way, will expose that wall thickness variation is an error during the case making operation so as the case is drawn and necks pressed with a cone and anvil any thickness in the original cup or straight wall blank doesn’t change. We’re stuck with it so throw them out or load them best you can.

Rick

anotherpussy,

Speaking of a lot of words and paragraphs that mean absolutely NOTHING.

YA THINK !! Speaking for yourself are ya !!! What? no commentary ?

Extra points for using both cursive and print

Sure they do...within reason and within reason is same cartridge case dimensions, and you just don't check, because if you did, you would see that. And IF he would buy cartridge specific cases we wouldn't be having this rabbit trail discussion, would we ?

A guy from another forum suggested to size multiple times, and it works, but that was before I annealed. Once annealed it doesn't take that much and most of the time not at all, other than the 1/8 of a turn after the initial stroke.

Your turn

PS Don't tell the Feral American you use LCD !!!!! He might put you on his ignore list !!

and here's what heavybarrel has to say, ya ready for the key word ???


Doesn't sound like he measured anything, does it ?

When I examined my first RCBS full length resizing die, it deeply offended my millwright sensibilities . No way that poorly shaped button on a rolled thread stem can be accurate. Certainly not at the price I paid for that new die. Precision comes at a serious price. My next purchase was a Redding die set. Pretty dies, BTW. Being a new reloader, I failed to tighten the lock nut on the stem. I thought, that's clever, a self alignment feature. When I realized my mistake, I raided the O-ring box at work. Lee puts O-rings everywhere. Forster boasts about a special rubber washer on their dies. Their stem design is different as well. The theory behind Lee's collet stem clamp is excellent, just rather poorly executed. Precision costs money ! On Hornady's latest stem,the collet is merely a thread lock.

It could.. if it was more rigid, but we all know what makes things better... heavier rod means more time more money. Make a heavier decapping rod, expander like a Redding expander all one piece, dead center it in the die and bushing and get back to us with TIR.

Unsure if I mentioned but the only way I have to measure is a dial caliber. I measured one particular piece of brass and there was a .012 difference from a resized neck to a expanded neck. If I do decide to purchase a neck turning tool, how much difference in OD from sized to expanded?

Thanks
HeavyBarrel

I can order a Foster Hand held neck turner for less than I can buy 50 257WM brass. I can't even find any in stock.

HeavyBarrel

That's kind of sorta maybe .006" of neck tension. In contrast I run .002" on everything bottleneck.

Before you buy a neck turning tool and turn any necks you need to know how thick your necks are to begin with. A ball mic is the easiest/best approach but all you have is a dial caliper, so do this.

Measure a bullet and write that down. Seat that bullet in a case. Measure the neck with the seated bullet. Take that measurement and subtract the bullet diameter. Divide the remainder by 2. You have an approximate but not totally accurate neck wall thickness. If that thickness is already at or below SAAMI specs you probably don't want to turn anything.

To see if you have thick/thin necks, which is a main reason for turning, you really need a ball mic to measure single thicknesses of neck wall.

.002 unless you decrease it with a larger expander ball or mandrel.

I will check that in a minute. I was trying a few things a bit ago and I am throwing concentricity out of whack when I seat a bullet. I went from case neck at .005 to near 20 thousands bullet runout.

HeavyBarrel

Last ditch effort to help here.........especially after 11 pages. At this point, after this, you're on your own.




roll the loaded round across a flat surface. Can you see the bullet wobble ? And to be honest, sizing down only one caliber really shouldn't need neck turning or inside reaming.

WTF does this even mean?

Can you TRY to be more relevant/specific??

We can only hope.

Cutting your ridiculous blather out would take it down to about 2 pages.

HeavyBarrel, some of us won't ditch on ya. We all had to learn things at some point. We are all still learning if we are honest about it.

Hope is a good thing. Reach for the stars and believe me you’ll never touch one!

It’s not that he doesn’t want to learn it’s he doesn’t want to take simple directions. And before you open up your mouth about me, l don’t need your direction. And certain others either.

Repeating:


WTF does this even mean?

Can you TRY to be more relevant/specific??

Took a few measurements a bit ago with my dial caliper.

Loaded is .286 OD on neck with .019 run-out measured at approx. bullet Ogive.

Bullet is .257

Neck OD after re-size in standard RCBS full length resizer die .272 with less than .002 run-out

Neck OD after running expander ball through neck with ball at top of die .284 with .005 run-out

Thanks for all the advice and help!

HeavyBarrel

Your neck wall thickness isn't your immediate problem (I don't think), but seating bullets seems to be (I'm positive)

But, the math doesn't jive if we assume your necks are .0135 or .0140 thick.

What's the diameter of your expander ball?

And, where are you measuring runout that's 019"?

We need to get you to a point where you're measuring runout somewhere in the middle of a loaded round's bullet ogive.

I am approx. at ogive? I got .0145 thick according to advice given earlier. I have not measured expander ball but will tomorrow evening as I do not have access until then.

Thanks

HeavyBarrel

I tried different settings with the depth of the seating die and that didn't make a difference in RO.

HeavyBarrel

Amen, and some of us REALLY shoot our rifles. Versus our mouth.

Sorry .286 after seating bullet will go back and edit.

HeavyBarrel

You’re not gonna roll the rounds across a flat surface are you ?

He is using an actual concentricity measuring tool to actually measure it.

Pay attention.

👍

I believe we're going to find out you need to size less, or expand more. Or, ream/turn. I think you're pushing necks out of whack with too much neck tension when you seat bullets. Logically, that's all it can be unless your seater die is total trash and not even close to concentric. Let's get the math figured out first before assuming it's the die.

I’d agree 100%.

It’d have to be a bad darned seater on a big compressed load to get numbers that rough.

Heavy Barrel

Not the die as much as it's the stems, the stems are junk. The VLD stems are good. My 300 wthby vs my 06 stem, world of a difference. Redding standard dies have a tighter tolerances than RCBS, Lee, Lyman etc.....take a bullet and place it in the stem and watch it rock back and forth. When you can see the loaded round roll across a flat surface, even though you checked it with a concentricity dial indicator, you can actually see how bad it is vs with a dial indicator. I had rounds years ago that just by looking at them I couldn't see how crooked the bullet sat in the neck, until I rolled them across a table.

You’re probably measuring too far back near the shank to see that large number as well as a crooked bullet. Here’s a good article from accurate shooter bulletin. The black and white drawing shows where the ogive and shank intersect. Best to stay away from that area as much as possible.

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/07/283/

I wouldn't go so far as to say one brand has tighter tolerances. I think it might be more of the luck of the draw on individual dies.

As far as Reddings go,the Redding stem design is pretty old fashioned, there is more possibility of a major screw up with that design . A Redding die set is only $5 more than a RCBS, $105 versus $100. And they are certainly a lot prettier. If they are prettier, maybe there was manufacturing money spent on looks instead of precision ? I ended up with a Redding die set BTW. Oddly enough ,my first choice was Hornady which I couldn't get. The next one I bought was a RCBS. For the fun of it, I usually do machinery, I refurbished some old 30-06 dies. They became Frankendies , parts from everywhere. I certainly learned a lot about die design and interchangeability of parts.. That is why I say the Redding stem design is old fashioned.

What smells worse ? Horse sh it or Bull sh it ?

The sh it you wrote !!

Redding dies are better. There is waay more clearance at the base and everywhere else as well in other dies, l know l compared them. A fire formed case in a RCBS seater verses a standard Redding seater has virtually no clearance. Stems in thier seaters are tighter too. I know l compared too. Redding dies produce straighter ammo, period.

.254 is expander ball measurements.

Read somewhere where an individual over annealed and made the necks to soft. I do not have an annealing machine, I did these with a socket and a torch holding in flame approx. 10 seconds.

None of the loads are compressed.

Using a VLD chamfer tool and really making sure the case mouths were chamfered/de-burred well. I did notice that some of the case mouths were not perfectly square so the last few I loaded I trimmed to square up case mouths with no change in RO after seating bullets. Actually tried a little sizing wax lube on bullet on a couple with no change.

HeavyBarrel

If you've got your necks too soft, and have excessive neck tension, you WILL push things out of whack seating a bullet.

This is my DIY on the cheap annealing machine. With the heat source I use and 750 tempilac, the necks/shoulders are only exposed to the heat for 5 or 6 seconds. No guessing, just consistency. An extra 4 seconds would likely ruin my brass.

I need that in my loading procedure! I saw where there was a company that builds one really similar, can't recall the name?

HeayBarrel

Heavy Barrel


Just use a deep well socket and drill with a Propane torch and don't waste your money on that unit unless you are gonna do alot of brass. Annealing isn't as difficult as some think it is.

A slow to moderate spin with a medium flame will be plenty. Stay away from the flame in the tip of the torch and just use the outer portion of the flame, the tip of that flame is good. A light blue tint just below the shoulder is good. Generally under 10 seconds will do it, a one one thousands count is best.


My neck tension, .002 on pump rifles and .001 on my bolt rifles. Its fine with how I anneal, and bullet concentricity under .001 of an inch consistently and accuracy under a half inch with my bolt rifles. Head expansion is .0015 after firing, with no indications of over annealing there either.

BTW I'm on my SIXTH reload.......

Cost me $75 worth of mechanical and electrical parts back in 2015. All found on Amazon and Ebay. I made my own cabinet out of an old scrap aluminum road sign. Look up Elfster on the YouTube. He can guide you through a parts list and build.

The nice thing about having a "machine" is I can do as few, or as many as I want/need, and have the same result from case to case, loading to loading, season to season. Dependable consistency.

I couldn't justify a commercial made machine despite having a large volume of match brass to do every month, but I could justify $75 dollars and a Sunday afternoon putting it together.

Pretty sure that if you switch over to using some sort of machine you'll see the fallacy in other methods that aren't governed by mechanical advantage. I used the socket/drill myself for a couple decades until I realized I needed more consistency in what I was doing. Holding tolerances costs money and effort.

I have brass that I've lost count how many reloads are on them, well over a dozen, annealing every firing. I'd say just THAT is worth the $75 and a Sunday afternoon. Not to mention holding the set back and neck tension tolerances I go by for my precision stuff.

Up-date on what is going on for those that might be interested.

Got a new sizing die, a Redding neck die. It is resizing to .002 or less.

When I seat a bullet in the brass I have not yet shot but formed I get concentricity issues as bad as .019 out, but the neck is still withing .002 to .004.

When I seat a bullet with one time fired in my gun it stays .006 to .004.

I assume that maybe I softened the brass to much during my annealing process. I went a little longer because I knew that I was going to be moving a good bit going from 264WM to 257WM.

Waiting on my new seating die to see if it might be my RCBS seater.

HeavyBarrel

Redding seater ?

Not sure how you are chamfering the case mouths, but I have found a VLD type chamfer tool very helpful for seating some bullets straight.

Using a VLD chamfer tool.

HeavyBarrel

Sounds like the necks are over-annealed.

He had the same issue before he annealed Jordan. The RCBS seater and stem sucks.

Yes I am thinking that is likely. I should be getting new seating die tomorrow, if I do I can rule that out. Only thing that makes me think die issue is thar even on the loaded rounds with .019 run-out the necks are still reading fairly concentric? But the brass that has been fired in my rifle seems to not get extreme run-out, like maybe they have been work hardened slightly, reaffirming that they were annealed to much.

HeavyBarrel

I don't know for sure but if I can find new 257wm brass I might give up on the converted brass.

HeavyBarrel

So what's good concentricity to you then ? LOL

of course it not gonna be out that much, it's formed to the chamber


Annealing produced more consistent shoulder bump and neck sizing. Can you post a pic of a newly annealed case ?

From the OPs first post on this thread.



Right up until post # 18924152 it was assumed BY ALL that the necks were NOT over-annealed. You will induce TIR even with the BEST seater die if the necks are too soft. It's getting figured out and not with your help. You gave your last ditch effort, remember?

Never heard of it. But I' getting one, thanks.

Watched Eric Cortina YouTube show earlier where he purposely over annealed some brass. He mentioned something about running the over annealed brass back through a full length die a few times to work harden it. Curious if anybody has done this with a positive outcome?

HeavyBarrel

Don't know exactly what he meant about work hardening after annealing, but I'll say this..... he didn't have to mention running it a few times to harden the brass. You want to anneal every firing to avoid work hardening. Work hardening prevent consistent sizing. Anneal your brass like I told you and size. As long as you have consistent sized shoulders bumped back and consistent neck tension and concentric necks, then that's it.

I have over softened some brass for me 35 Whelen and yes I did repeatedly size it in my fl die to work harden it. Was successful as the shoulders stopped collapsing upon bullet seating.
F01

it's hard to over anneal. If you just rotate the brass at the tip of the secondary flame not the inner flame of a medium flame, and watch under a low light for the light blue hue just beneath the shoulder and stop there.

Thanks Fury01 I will give that a try soon.

HeavyBarrel

One thing l didn’t mention is keeping the case in the die for about 8 seconds to fully form. If pulling in and out, pulling out leads to shoulder setting forward a bit throwing off headspace measurements. I’m not a big Cortina fan, sorry.

Is there a particular topic where he's off base in your estimation?

mentioned something about running the over annealed brass back through a full length die a few times to work harden it.

I don't agree with it..

anneal, size and forget about it till the next firing, anneal size... hold case in die to fully form, that's my way and the results are what I like. You don't agree, don't.

If you don't like having your views challenged it's not a good idea to state them in public, particularly if you're thin skinned.

I just stated them, now what ?

On this particular point, nothing.

Like Mule deer, I made my own Truetool. Out of 100 rounds using RCBS dies, I may get 10% or less with more than .005 run out. I true those up.

Although not a bench rest shooter, when trued to .003 or less run I see no difference in the accuracy I never test run out on empty brass.

If consistently getting more run out, I would turn the expander stud 1/8 turn and check run out. Repeat for a full revolution. Lock it down when you see the best.

Of course, lube inside of neck, center dies, polish expander before hand.

If all else fails, then I start looking at neck uneven thickness.

Sleeve seaters have been around for some time, I have one by Bonanza . Forster bought Bonanza long ago. But they are more expensive to make. Companies tend limit their production to just calibers, like 308 or 6mm. Forster make their's specific to the cartridge, like 30-06 or 6.5x55. Hornady has added another wrinkle, seating buttons specific to the their bullets.

I had a Hornady sleeve seater, and found that even Bonanza/Forster chamber sleeves don’t beat my standard Redding seater die w/ a VLD micro top.

I'm fhuqking CRYING,I'm laughing sooooooo fuqking hard!!!!!! Hint.

Jerry Lewis Telethon WINNER,you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Fhuqking LAUGHING! +P+!!!...................

99.9 percent positive the issue here has been narrowed down to the seating operation, and started with slightly over annealed cases, and a touch too much neck tension. The combination of which will produce more than acceptable runout, regardless what seater die everyone wants to argue is "the best".

IF the OP hasn't softened the necks TOO much and deadened the brass he can certainly try to work harden them as suggested, repeatedly in a sizing die, but can accomplish the same thing by firing them a couple times.

I can assure you that from here on out, proper annealing won't be an issue for him.

While you're "Fhuqking LAUGHING", and "fhuqking CRYING", take the time to just fu_ck off, too.

Karen,

You will ALWAYS do best,by simply fhuqking yourself,as that approach will yield the most pussy...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Bless your heart for trying and crying,you AMAZINGLY Inept Clueless Fhuqk.

Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............

Nancy,

Your worthwhile contribution here, on this thread, or any thread, is exactly, what?

Not. A. Fuc-king. Thing.

Zero, Zip, Nada, Nuthin'.

Sit down, Shut up, Go away, Fuc-k off......SO many choices.

Karen,

Your punctuation means so much...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Keep Pretending aloud,until you "believe" same. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.............

Princess,

You're gonna hafta put on your best set of big girl pants and dig down fuc-king deep, to hurt my feelers.

You never don't bring the same predictable lame boring bullshi-t to the table.

Quit now and save face.

Or quit beaten down with a mud hole stomped in your sorry ass.

Again, choices.

Well I got the new Redding seater die in today. Started at 2 resizing's with same results and went to 4 and got .010 RO. Will see tomorrow maybe how many it takes to get brass back.

HeavyBarrel

Correction on post..... alot going on with this thread

FA talked about sizing down to another caliber. .264 to .257 outside neck turning is needed. Thought about what he posted but didn't want to open another debate on top of what's been going on with this forum.

FA is correct, but didn't want him to get his panties up in wad if I agreed with him. I have converted calibers in the past and was told to just ream over the years. My thing with the Lee Collet dies was brass of a specific caliber not converting. Cheap way out is to get a Forster after firing reamer and go from there. In another post I mentioned about inside and out side neck wall thickness. Using a ball mic shows outside turning, alone, mathman, trues up neck wall thickness but I was told years ago, a reamer would do it too.


Getting a better seater was not a waste of money or time.

Didn't say it was needed in the OP's situation, just a possibility because when necking down, that circumferential brass has to go somewhere, and it goes to making the neck walls thicker. In his case, probably not a lot. But, it MIGHT just be what's giving him the extra neck tension he doesn't need. Which would contribute to the overall problem he's having.

Neck turning is needed though, as previously explained, in what I do. Necking down lapua 308's to 243 and 260 to gain a consistent .014" neck. We do it in steps and annealing every step. 308 to 7mm, 7mm to 260, 260 to 243. And all that circumferential brass squeezed down makes a very thick neck that is perfect for turning what we want.

It's what we prefer to do factoring in our chambers, the sizing/expanding dies we use, the neck tension we want, and the durability of a thicker neck. Standard lapua 243 and 260 run on average 013" (at least the batches we've tried), and I say average because there IS slight thick/thin even with lapua. Standard lapua caliber correct brass doesn't do what we want, so we neck down 308s and make what we want.

We turn instead of ream because I can adjust my neck turning rig to exactly the thickness I want and completely control the process that way. Which not only dictates neck thickness, but ALSO cleans up any thick/thin present at the same time, something a reamer won't do. Done once and done forever.

Oh, and, it's too late to suck up now ol' boy. Just sayin'.

I seriously doubt his has a custom chamber ol boy.... and no I'm not sucking up OL BOY. Keep thinking that.

SMDH, are you even for real??

Not even close to eluding he has a custom chamber douchebag. He does have necked down brass though and possibly necks that are too thick for his seating and expanding operation, causing a little bit too much neck tension.

TRY, to just keep up here, hmm??

Let's get his necks hardened up a little from his over annealing and get them fireformed to his chamber, whatever it is. Then go from there.

I'm hesitant to add this, this topic doesn't really need any more complications. But the only true place to measure run out is inside the neck. The outside includes the difference in the neck thickness. At least in most full length dies. A cheap dial test indicator and mag base is all that is needed. Try Shars for one . A bonus , most DTIs are in half thou.

I'm not hesitant to add this.... measuring Inside ? LOL I think your splitting hairs.

And nobody that is keeping up with this thread doesn't know that you're just running your mouth as usual, right? LOL

Behind the curve, as usual.

you just love to have the last word.....POS I'm sure your lovely wife loves that ! Or are you still married ? I'm thinking not ! For as much as you act like a homo I'll say no. Are you swinging the other way ?

What is your problem... seriously?

he likes to run his mouth. So he calmed down alot since I break his balls.

Didn't intend for this post to get carried away. Kinda lets you know who are the good people trying to help an obviously novice reloader. Although I have been loading for over 30 years with good results at my accuracy requirements, I am definitely a novice with annealing! I have also never reformed brass as much as going from 264wm to 257wm and I am very grateful for those with positive advice.

None the less I have invested a good bit of money and time trying to make the 264 converted brass work and although not throwing in the towel, as I have 250 of them, i am in search of some new or 1 time fired Weatherby or Norma 257 Weatherby Mag brass as I am trying to get a good load developed before a hunt in Alabama at the first of the year. Any advice on where to find some would be appreciated as my search on line has not revealed any at a reasonable, Weatherby price wise, amount.

Thanks to all that have tried helping me with solid and helpful advice and I have not given up on work hardening the brass and will let yall know when I finally, if ever, get the brass to load a concentric round.

HeavyBarrel

He’s just anotherdickhead

I know for a fact you'll get the annealing figured out.

Before you toss the towel on those 250 pcs of brass, why not just load some up and see how they shoot? I mean, what do you have to lose? As long as they headspace safely it might be worth it to see what they do. If nothing else shooting them will definitely help with working hardening them back to what they're supposed to be.

You'll figure it out bro.... it takes time.

Why bother measuring if you are not using a true surface ? Just load and shoot.

"Bro"........"it takes time"

From the joker who back in this thread said he was giving his "last ditch effort" to help.....because the OP "wouldn't follow simple directions".

I have shot them and have got decent groups but the unexplained flyers is what got me using the concentricity gauge. I have never used one in the past 30 plus years of handloading and borrowed the gauge from a friend. This rifle is a 257 Weatherby Mag and I would like to limit throat erosion by not just firing a bunch of loads just to fire-form if I can keep from it. I will not give up on the brass but trying to get a load developed for an upcoming hunt in Alabama where I will be hunting some clear cut areas with a chance at longer ranges where I could utilize the flat trajectory and just wanting to use my new rifle. I have found some brass, offered up from some nice helpful members on here and hopefully can develop a load without the brass hassle that I have been experiencing.

Like I mentioned before this cartridge brass conversion is new to me. I know I have created the issue obviously by over annealing and if I can get it back by work hardening that will be great but in the time being, with the urgency, I am going to try the 257wm brass and see if I can't find a load to hunt with this year after Christmas.

HeavyBarrel

COW bud COW

Cream of Wheat method pistol powder of proper proportion, toilet paper, cow and wax.

Max load bullet touching lands.

You were told about the problem with this earlier in this very thread.

What problem? You think l have a problem.