Hey guys,
Whats your choice for a good all-around bullet choice for the 7-08 assuming they all shoot good.

I'd like to choose between the 120TSX, the 140TSX, the 140NP or the 140AB.

I'm thinking 120TSX would do it all, up to and including elk and moose....while keeping trajectory a bit flatter. Either way, the 140NP I think might be hard to beat all-around too...

Any comments on the best 'one-bullet' for the 7-08 for antelope, deer, sheep, elk, moose, bears, etc.....

I would try the 120gr tsx since it can be driven faster which may help provide more consistent expansion at longer distances compared to the 140gr tsx.I have used the 140gr partition in my own 7mm-08s with good results,but I have been extremely impressed with the performance of the tsx on game in several cartridges.

Yea I'm thinking this will be a good opportunity to use the TSX....havent really shot much with them other than 1 doe out of a 260...

I really think the 120 is the key to get a bit more speed outta it too...

You may have answered your own question, 120 TSX.

Anyone shot elk with the 120 TSX out of a 7-08? Any reason to feel any less confident with a 120 TSX vs a 140 NP? I hate switching things up, so I'm lookin for that do-everything load and I really think the 120 TSX should handle it all.....

I have seen the results of elk and moose killed with the 140gr tsx out of the 7mmremmag.Penetration and damage was comparable to a 175gr partition used in the same cartridge.

Pick the one thats most accurate in your gun and you'll have your answer.TMO.

Thats a given....

I don't understand why anyone would actually want to limit themselves to one load in any rifle. This sounds like one of those what if games played by high school kids about cars before they own a car.

But whenever the question arises, I always say go with a heavier bullet. In the 7mms, that would be a 154-gr Hornady Interlock.

I only use one load in every one of my rifles.The reason being that I only have to remember one sight in and learn one trajectory for that gun.



Bullet construction is far more important than bullet weight.The 154gr hornady usually retains about 60% of it's weight for a retained weight of about 92.4gr.The tsx usually retains at least 90% of it's weight for a retained weight of about 108gr.The result is that the 120gr tsx will generally offer even greater penetration than the heavier interlock.

Dont quite understand that analogy, nor do I care to....but I like shooting one load for everything and learning it well. Why change up a good thing? What are you really gaining? For NA game, theres no need and if a guy can find a good load, why not stick to it? I didnt say it was the only load I'd shoot in the gun, but I prefer to run one for all hunting purposes and know it front to back....

Its okay if ya dont understand....

I distrust light bullets, even if they are monolithic, they simply slow down at a much faster rate in flesh and bone. Sure they do have a lot of penetration, but depends on what and where your shooting. I have seen several ocassions wherein the 180 Barnes X in the .338 failed to penetrate as much as I would have liked on a Cape buffalo and again on a bull bison. I have not seen this with the heavier Barnes X bullets. I think we tend to go over board in both directions with monolithics, like in most things, moderation remains the answer. for elk in a 7-08 I would use the 140 myself, then I could take any good angle shot. In a lead core jacketed bullet I would opt for the 160 gr. such as a Nosler.

I wish Nosler would turn-out a 7mm 120gr Accubond or perhaps a 130gr.

The original poster specified which game that he intends to hunt as quoted below from his first post.He specified up to and including elk and moose.I doubt that he cares if this bullet is suitable for bison or cape buffalo.

If your are competing in match shooting then I would shoot the one that shoots the best, If you are going to use for hunting purposes I would use the one that kills the best. I have yet to find a real world big game hunting situation where someone would benefit from having a round that shoots .25 MOA as compared to 1 MOA or even 1.5 MOA for that matter.

I own 2 7-08s, a 7wsm, and a 284 win. There is a good probability that you will get your most accurate load with a 140 gr Accubond. There are several on here with that experience. This bullet is designed to perform in a similar manner as the Partition. Performance I have seen with this bullet on deer, leads me to believe it would not let you down on larger game. I say give these a try. JMO since you're asking.

I know the theory, but my experience tells me to trust the 154-gr bullets in any 7mm rifle.

If you can't get different bullet weights to shoot to the same point of aim or at least in vertical groups, then go with the one that shoots the best for your intended game. In the 7mm-08, I find no problem shooting the 120-gr Nosler BT at 2600 and 3,000 fps, the 139s at 2,800, and the 154s at 2,700 fps, all with the same sight setting of 6 minutes of an angle.

Lee24-in all honesty, if you can't get your head around the one bullet theory then you've less experience than I thought you had...

Mark D

I have been a big proponent of the One Bullet Theory for about 30 years, but he asked about EXPERIENCE. I have also been the practioner of the One Gun Reality, where I had to know how it handled a lot of different loads, from cast bullets at 1,200 fps to 220-gr RN ( .30-06).

The reality for my 7mm-08s is that the 154-gr BTSP or SST is a more dependable long range bullet than any 120-grainer that starts out faster. Inside 200 yards, the 154-gr RN is really accurate and gives up nothing in usable trajectory to any 120, 139, or 154-gr bullet.

No one's making anyone try anything. Maybe we should should rename the thread, "Best 120-gr load for the 7mm08" and delete all other posts. Just go back and look at my posts years ago touting the 120-gr Nosler BT as a tough 7mm bullet. Lots of people doubted it based on theory and preconceptions, but a few tried and became believers.

I haven't read every word of every post here ... so if this has been said, or touched on, I'll apologize for wasting your time ... but seeing that the 120g TSX and Vmax bullets share the same BC, and can both be made to move at about 3,050fps MV, I'd say that's your "one bullet" choice right there ... They should track the same during flight, and basically print to the same POA/POI ... add in the 120g Nosler BT (if you can get it tracking/printing basically the same), and you've got three bullet constructions that you can choose from for whatever you're going after ... and only have to remember one ballistic ribbon ...


Of course, while having only one ribbon to remember, it's not that hard to have a single, heavier bullet/load in case you really feel you need that extra weight. But again, a properly placed 120g TSX moving at 3,050 MV is gonna be good medicine for just about whatever you would want to point a 7-08 at ...

I shoot all the bullets you listed in my 7-08, they all shot HuntingMOA or better. I went with the 140 TSX.

-Most consistant POI
-most accurate (sub MOA)
-very little difference in trajectory with 120 TSX
-better penetration on 'iffy angles'
-best with H4350 (favorite powder in 7-08-cannot overcharge enough to be dangerous - can 'eyeball' each load)

NUBMER 1 REASON TO SHOOT 140 TSX:

-KILLS LIKE GREASED LIGHTNING!

You keep mentioning experience.So please tell us just how much actual experience you have with the 120gr tsx.

I think we all know the answer to that...

It does appear that way. So all of a sudden someone is talking theory,and not actual experience as he was claiming? .

The 120-gr Ballistic Tip is so accurate and versatile in the 7mm-08 at velocities from 2500 to 3000 fps that I have no need to try anything else in that light bullet weight.

The 139-gr bullets are the ideal weight for the 7mm, and there are lots of choices there.

But if you are stuck on one bullet for a rifle, for small and large game, you have to go with what will kill the large game, and that is a 150 to 160 grain class of bullet in the 7mms. The reason I like the 154s is that Hornady makes an SST, BTSP, and RN that all shoot well, to the same POI at 200 yards, and the SST and BTSP shoot as flat, for practical purposes, as anything else at long range. If you don't want to try them, just run some ballistics programs to compare.

If you are actually going to shoot a bear, elk or moose with a 7mm-08 or 7x57, wouldn't you expect to be well inside of 200 yards? If not, why the hell would you insist on using your light long-range deer bullet out of the weakest end of the 7mm cartridge family? That sounds like someone who is armchair hunting.

Okay, jumping into the fray here....

The Barnes current Reloading Manual #3 (which doesn't include TSX Data, but does include their standard X-Bullet) shows recommended critters with various bullet weights. They show their 120 grain bullets as good for critters up to Deer and Sheep, but do not show Elk on their charts until you hit the 130 grain pills.

I use the TSX in my 7mm-08 and get great accuracy with the 140 grain - better than I can get with the 120 grain TSX. My experience with both is limited to deer, so I can tell you on deer, they both kill quickly and efficiently. My personal choice is accuracy and confidence in my equipment. I want to find what I hunt. I also know that I could use my 7mm-08 for Elk, but probably wouldn't unless I knew I was going to be shooting at under 200 yards.

My experience with Elk does not include the TSX, but it does include a 300 Win Mag with 200 grain Swift A-Frames on a 6x6 bull at 325 yards. It took three rounds (first round in the boiler room standing and two others in the boiler room with the bull moving away) to bring the bull down. The last bullet shattered the shoulder on the opposite side which put him down on the ground and when recovered, it retained about 92% of its weight. My point - elk are tough. Take enough gun, use it within your shooting abilities, and use enough bullet IMHO.
Elk

I have disproven this myth many times myself having killed several elk and moose,as well as pronghorn,bighorn and many deer with 140 gr 7mm bullets.All of my hunting partners use 140gr 7mm bullets exclusively and have also killed many moose,elk and deer.

OK,

I've got a practical dog in this fight. Drew my "once in a lifetime" Minnesota Moose tag for this fall. I'm taking my brush gun, "Shillelagh" mannlicher stocked 7x57 with 18" barrel.

Starting load development with 120 and 140 TSX's. Tho I "know" it's deer load of a 139 SP @ 26xx will penetrate and kill a moose at any sane angle.

POP has been fantastic in Quick Loading my bullet/powder theories for me as 7x57 manuals are all over the place and I have utmost trust in the strength and design of the FN mauser action.

I think I can get the 120's to the 2950-3000 range and the 140's to 2750-2800 even given the short barrel. I expect my shot to come between 30 and 300 yards as we'll be hunting drainages and clearcuts just off the Boundary Waters Canoe Area.

Here's the classic trade off ... expansion v. penetration. Either will be going around 2100 fps at 300 yards. I'm sure the TSX will expand well at any velocity above that number. Maybe the 120 will be a little more violent inside 100 yards but that is relative. I'm pretty sure that either will penetrate more than enough and it will be a challenge to keep either in the animal. Of course my only field experience has been in Whitetails with 140 TSX's and I did recover one after it was finally stopped by 16" of spinal column. I can live with that.

The more I ponder and consult on the subject the more I agree that there are very few poor choices in a bullet for the 7mm08/7x57 class. But even with a large animal on the menu I'm thinking whichever of the little TSX's the rifle shoots best will be the "best" choice.

Naturally, any feedback from the peanut gallery is welcomed ...

My experience is much like Laughing Elk's in that my 7-08 shoots the 120TSX pretty darn good but it groups the 140TSX better...and....it groups the 140AB's even better so that's what I've been shooting. The AB has preformed Excellent on whitetail out to about 250 yards and on several hogs. Overall I've been amazed how well this little gun will shoot just about anything I feed it, powder brands, bullet weight, seating depths, etc don't seem to bother it near as much as all of my other rifles.

Logic lesson: The fact that a 140-gr, or 120-gr, or 110-gr bullet has killed a particular type of animal does not "prove" that it is a better better for the job than a 150, 154, 160 or 162-grain bullet at the proper range. 139 and up is a BIG game bullet, and placement and angle are the most important factors.

If you choose to use a deer bullet on big game, it is just playing, a stunt for fun, because there is no reason you HAVE to do it. I have never heard of a 7mm-08 that wouldn't shoot several bullet weights and makes well.

That right there saved me a ton of typing...no point even wasting bandwidth asking you do defend that absurd statement!

The 7-08 is an absolute hammer with 140gr TSX, and that would is my choice as a one bullet does all... end of story! The only 154gr bullet that even has a REMOTE chance of hanging with the TSX is the 154 Interbond... and it ain't quite there!

The 140gr TSX can't be beat in any 7mm IMHO.

Here is one I recovered this spring from a 6'1" blackie @ 87 yds. Bullet broke his shoulder at the joint and was stuck in the hide in front of the hip (petals were actually through the hide...simply got hung up). While it was from my 280AI, I've had just as impressive results from the 7-08.

This bullet is a real trophy, as I've whacked a heap of game with the 140gr TSX, and they aren't easy to recover!

As I also stated, big game bullets in 7mm start at 139 grains.
There is a lot more difference between 120 and 139 than there is between the 139s and the 150s. A 140 TSX is probably a good choice for an all-around 7mm-08 bullet, except for being too expensive for lots of practice. But I haven't tried it, yet.

Some of us have found a lot of success with some 139s, some with 154s, a few with the 140-gr TSX. That's why the original poster asked for opinions based on different experiences. What is irrational is when someone has opinions about bullets he hasn't tried as being inferior to the one he currently likes.

Everyone has a reason for why they do what they do or why they use what they use. I have mine as well.

I live in the People's Republic of California. We are currently under threat of having hunting areas shut down within Condor Range because of elevated lead levels in the Condor's blood. The #1 suspect is residual lead fragments consumed in gutpiles and carcasses left behind by hunters. This (a possible lead bullet ban) has been coming for a long time and is (unfortunately) gaining momentum as a political issue. It is starting to affect Northern Arizona and Southern Utah as well where 'non-native' Condors have been re-introduced.

Expect this issue to show up in your neighborhood soon as well since studies are already showing residual lead in prairie dog carcasses and its effects on scavengers and predators. And "Yes", your state game managers are already aware of this.

About three years ago, I saw this coming and have changed all my cartridges over to solid coppers. IMHO, the Barnes TSX is a fine 'premium' bullet that has earned every bit of its excellent reputation. Yup they are expensive, but if the day comes where they want to take lead bullets away, I will not be left with trying to develop effective hunting loads a week before the season opens.

Funny how those TSX bullets don't expand, huh? Here's a 120g TSX shot from a 7mm-08 at about 3,000fps ...

Into what??

Or Whom??

That explains why all those deer fell down like they were pole-axed.
Elk

basically lengthwise thru a large doe ... found just under the hide on the 'far side' of the shot ...

bullet basically plowed thru at least one of every possible type of obstacle it could have encountered, which I'm assuming is what helped to flatten the heck out of it ... it didn't seem to veer off course either, nor does it appear to have tumbled ...

I've used the 140 TSX now on two bison. It worked well. Also killed my last elk with one.

Here's two bullets recovered from this years bison- 7mm-08 @ 2850 fps, bison was between 100 and 200 yards.

Here's a 120 TSX from my 7mm-08 at about 2900 fps out of a pig last year. One shoulder, heart, other shoulder and under the skin on the far side. Pig dropped so fast he bounced. Some pig It now weighs 119.9 grains

Maybe I'm a bit nuts but that is such a bonus when you can recover a bullet that looks like that just under the skin on the far side of an animal. I met a guy last fall in eastern Colorado that had shot a decent muley that morning. He was bragging up the great shot he made, just below the eyes, IIRC and with a 300WinMag. I looked it over good and noticed no exit hole. Feeling around the back of the skull I discovered a lump. I asked the dude if I could dig the slug out and he looked at me like I was wacked but said go ahead. I dug the slug out and it was a Nosler Partition. It did the job for sure but I was surprised at the distance, approx. 100 yards that it did not exit.

I tried to keep it so I could weigh it but he wanted it after seeing it. My kind of fun.

Just because a bullet weighs 150,154,160 or 162 gr does not "prove" that it is a better bullet for the job than a 140gr or 120gr bullet of different construction.




So what do you suppose that Barnes lists the 120gr tsx as?Do they not list it as a big game bullet?



Firstly,does Barnes specifically list the 120gr tsx as a deer bullet?As far as weight is concerned, there is no reason that you HAVE to use a heavier bullet,if the lighter bullet does a good job.

So answer one simple question for us.Have you ever used a 120gr tsx or 140 gr tsx on big game?A simple yes or no answer is all that is required.

I have personally used 7mm bullets weighing 120gr,140gr,150gr,154gr and 160gr on big game,so I am basing my opinion on actual experience,not on speculation of what might happen.

Great discussion....lots of good debate. I think I'm still on the side that will be shooting the 120TSX or the 140TSX. Too many good reviews from everyone, and both seem like a perfect fit for the 7-08. Of course I like my 140NP's as well.....

Gotta love the discourse. Thinking about all this is making me want to go out and do some hunting.... Five months 'til deer season...not sure I'll make it. Perhaps I'll draw that antelope tag in early september I put in for.
Elk

Hunts:

What and how much powder did you use to get the 140's up to 2850? How long was the barrel?

Gaviidae,

I'm using 42.5 grains of Varget, Federal 215 primers, and any brass I happen to have available(usually Winchester). My gun is a Tikka T3 lite SS/synthetic. The barrel is 22 7/16". Groups average under 1 1/2".

I've had good results with lot's of bullets in the 7mm-08(Nosler, Speer, Hornady, etc.). Even Remington Core-loks have worked well.

"..Just because a bullet weighs 150,154,160 or 162 gr does not "prove" that it is a better bullet for the job than a 140gr or 120gr bullet of different construction...."

Correct. It depends on what the job is.

If you like speed, a motorcycle or Porsche is good, but for all-around functionality, and big jobs, a pickup truck beats the smaller vehicles every time.

Like I said, limiting yourself to one lightweight bullet in a light cartridge and using it on big game when you don't have to is just a stunt.

Who is seriously going to travel across the country to hunt elk, bear or moose and not spend a few dollars to have some alternative loads with heavier bullets for closer shots, or even buy a rifle more perfect for the job?

Who is seriously going to test a bunch of loads for the 7mm-08, find several different weights which are accurate and shoot near the same point of aim, and then discard all of them but one, of any weight? Not me. I may have one favorite load, but I know how all kinds of factory and custom loads shoot in all my rifles, just in case the airline loses my luggage with my Wonder Bullets and I have to go to Wal-Mart or Billy's Gas & Guns for ammo. What you find there is going to be 139/140-gr ammo, because that is the best "all-around" for the 7mm-08.

Someone that uses a bullet of suitable construction such as the tsx that does the same job with lighter bullets,while providing less recoil and a flatter trajectory.One load,one sight in,one trajectory equals better knowledge of the load and more consistency.



What! no 154gr or 160gr?Why do you suppose that is?

I dont see anything as limiting Lee....
If I went with a 120TSX, it would be because I knew it would work for all around, with no compromises. If I go 140TSX or 140NP, it will be for the exact same reason.

As for having a rifle 'more perfect' for the job....I'll be fine thanks. I have a 30-06 and probably wont pull it out much over the 7-08. Why limit myself with a heavier bullet for 'closer shots' when I can just shoot one bullet for everything, and be confident with it?

I didnt say I was going to discard all other loads...I'll enjoy shooting them and havin fun with them...but overall I'm going to aim at having 1 all-around load....doesnt mean I'm limiting myself...just means that I can enjoy shooting it and puttin game on the ground.

I'm still with Stubblejumper....what are your experiences with the 120TSX? To be able to call something a stunt, I hope you at least have SOME sort of experience with it. Just curious....

I think that his continuing to avoid the question makes it obvious that he has no experience with the 120gr or 140gr tsx.Why doesn't he just answer the question and admit his opinions are not based on actual experience with the tsx?

Man, too bad Stick isn't around to join in this discourse. I'm thinking he said he'd take on just about anything with his 7-08 and 120 TSX......

As for me, I'm still testing loads in my 700 Guide Gun, which will be quite fun. Got some 120 TSX loaded up, but plain old Rem 140 grain corelokt's did quite well on the target.

Where is Stick these days????

He's around ... just not around here... he's doing well ... but I'm sure we all knew that already ... (grin)

I already told you, the Remington and Nosler 120-gr do all I want for light bullets out of the 7mm-08. I have no interest in playing with a TSX, unless it is a 140-gr, but I already have lots of 139s, 140s, and 154s working, so my limited time is focused on things of more value to me. To someone who has no loads worked up, go try whatever you want. I just wouldn't stop with the first 120-gr bullet that worked on paper or small deer and declare myself ready to tackle big game with something in the .25-06 class.

So then,the man that previously posted that he prefers to rely on experience rather than on theory,has absolutely zero experience with the 120gr tsx,or any tsx for that matter,yet he continues to theorize why it isn't a good choice.

No, my post was based on my experience with other 7mm bullets that work.

I haven't seen any posts here by anyone who has actually used the 120-gr .284 TSX deer bullet on bear, boar, elk or moose. I see a lot of armchair speculation about how the light TSX theoretically will retain more weight than the 140 and 154-gr bullets, penetrate more, blah, blah, blah. No real experience, though.

Stalking skills, getting close, and making the correct shot are far more important than bullet weight, speed, or construction.

Unlike you,I and several others here have actually used the tsx in several calibers and bullet weights on game animals.And yes,it has been my actual experience that they retain much more weight than partitions,interlokts,core lockts,powerpoints,speers,and several other bullets that I have used on big game.The 140gr tsx has on average retained more weight than even the 175gr gr partition,and much more weight than the 154gr interlock which I have also used on game.So the bottom line is that my opinions are based on actually using the tsx on game,unlike your opinions of the tsx which are based totally on speculation with absolutely no experience with the tsx in any caliber or bullet weight.

So tell us the details of how the 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08 worked for you on boar, bear, elk or moose, the range, angle, and why you didn't use a bullet specifically designed for such game.

If the TSX isn't designed for such game,then what the hell is??

Lee decided that the TSX in 120 isnt designed for bigger game than deer.....it was his choice, and now the rest of the world must follow his rule.

Lee, Why not tell us your experience on why the 120TSX ISNT suitable for such game?

Sorry, but you seem to be very closed minded about what is suitable or not and dont ahve much to back it up other than personal bias.....

My point exactly.Is it possible that he is related to E over on the optics forum?

From the link below.


http://www.barnesbullets.com/



Read that last sentence carefully.Notice that it says "from whitetail deer to the largest game".So obviously the tsx was not designed as just a deer bullet.

what I'm about to say is beyond obvious, but oh well ...

it's one thing to say that you've found a great all around load for your rifle, and that you're not interested in the 120g TSX ... but you're a moron if you think you can dismiss the 120g TSX because you've already deemed another bullet/load as suitable for all around work ...

you just can't compare two things w/out actually comparing them ... and the 120g TSX absolutely shines when shot from just about any flavor of 7mm chambering ...

the 140g is also quite impressive ... but that, in and of itself, is completely unrelated to the 120g option ...

the long and short of it is, people around here need to stop dismissing things prior to direct comparison ...

Ding Ding Ding......thanks WGM.....very well said.

If you haven't tried the 154-gr bullets, why are you dismissing them? If you haven't actually used the 120-gr TSX on boar, bear, elk and moose, why are you so sure it is superior to everything else?

I already have good 120-gr loads for the 7mm-08, but I see no reason to experiment on big game with light bullets. That violates my ethics of hunting. I know the heavier bullets work at appropriate ranges, because I, and 1,000,000 other hunters using 7x57s and 7mm-08s, have already used them successfully.

If any of you 120-gr TSX fans actually get around to experimenting with them on big game, tell us how they worked.

So that you can call it a stunt then proclaim the results a fluke when the results are positive.

So do you drive a vehicle with fuel injection or electronic ignition?How about radial tires?If so,why would you take such a chance trying these new fangled inventions when vehicles ran with carburetors,points and condensors and belted tires for so many years?If everyone was as closed mined as yourself,and afraid to try something new,we would still be living in caves and hunting with pointed sticks.

Lee24 is just ing again.......

If you post some actual experience, I promise not to respond at all. I am seriously interested in how it ACTUALLY works outside your living room.

I can remember a few years back when some of the folks here said I was crazy to use the 120-gr Nosler BT in the 7mm-08 at 3,000 fps. Didn't bother me then, for the same reason.

I put it in the same class as using a .223 for deer. Yes, it will work in the right hands, smaller deer, and right circumstances. I posted some .223 bullets that I KNOW work in a thread on that topic, but I wouldn't take a .223 deer hunting if I had a anything bigger to use.

Maybe he is actually E using a different name on this forum. After all he can judge a product without even bothering to try it just like E can.If he starts quoting JB we will know for sure.

How did you judge the 154-gr bullets to be inferior without trying them, especially since they have killed a ton of big game?

Apparently your closed mind has a problem with reading comprehension.To answer your question,I will quote from one of my previous posts that you obviously could not comprehend.



I have used your precious 154 gr hornady interlocts,on big game,so unlike you, I have been able to compare the results to those of the 140gr tsx.

Lee,
I dont think anyone is down-talking the 154 you reccomended....they are merely questioning your incredible bias against the 120TSX with no experience. I personally think the 154 is probably a great choice and worth a look no doubt, but am also open-minded enough to understand the 120TSX is in the running as a choice.....maybe not the best for all applications, but definatly not 'unethical' to be using...

Comparing a 120TSX from a 7-08 for bigger game to a .223 for deer is laughable at best...

Take a look at the pictures below that I just took.You should recognize the box of bullets?Then take a look at the variety of bullet boxes by various manufacturers on my loading bench.I do test a good number of bullets,so that I can pass judgement on them from actual experience.

Lee24, Have you ever taken a head of game,beside your claim to have fired 600,000 rounds of handgun Ammo. Many people in other threads Have requested that you post a picture of something that you have taken. I am sure that you know how to post picture,since you claim to be an engineer that has enginereed in multiple enginerring fields.........

Don't know about this string but that a cool video!~

http://www.barnesbullets.com/

I latched on to 170 rounds of 139gr SSTs and I'm not looking back for awhile...

The video demonstrates how a bullet keeps rotating as the bullet passes through the media expanding all the way.Many people fail to realize that those sharp petals on the tsx cut better than the blunter shapes formed when most other bullets expand.In fact many people assume that the bullet stops rotating as soon as it begins expanding.

Rackmastr, I have not taken an elk with a 120tsx in a 7mm-08 but I have used a 270 with a 130 grain X bullet to take deer, hogs and elk. I would like to show you pictures of the recovered bullets but they all exited after doing their job. I think the 120tsx moving about 3000fps would be about the same as my 130@ 3000fps. I have put two of these through both shoulders of bull elk , nothing could have put an elk down faster. I have shot them length wise through big hogs for quick kills. My opinion is that they may be a little on the tough side for deer but they work on them too. I have used 140 accubonds on deer and they are great, massive expansion with complete penetration....perfect. In 7mmo8 I would use any of the bullets you mentioned. If I hunted mostly deer and sheep I'd pick accubonds for everything. If I hunted mostly moose I'd use the 140tsx for everything. If I hunted them all in really open country I'd use the 120tsx for everything. If I hunted them all under all sorts of conditions, I'd use the 140 partitions which group great in my 7mm08 for everthing because partitions are never a bad choice and have always worked great for me.

Thanks Doc.....much appreciated!

Rack and Doc:I slide along with Doc in that if I had to shoot one bullet in the 7/08 it would be a 140 partition and that is all I've used in the 7/08 and 7x57. Works just fine in any 7mm I've tried it in.

I'd go 140 Accubond. Works great in 7mm-08 and 7wsm.

We'll see Sasquatch mating on video before we see a pic of Lee with dead game....

ROTF LMAO

I shot a 175-200 pound feral hog a few months ago with a 120gr. TSX out of a 7-08AI. 150 yards, one shot and I saw all 4 feet fly into the air. It never moved. Broadside shot, just behind the shoulder, full penetration. I wanted to see if it would penetrate both shoulders, but couldn't get the right shot due to brush. I'm looking forward to using it this fall on deer and hopefully elk.

I checked back and see there is one post of real experience with the 120-gr TSX on a small feral hog, with expected results - same as a 120-gr Nosler BT would give.

I don't know why the TSX worshippers get so defensive about a bullet they haven't used, and very few others have used, on game they are just so sure it would be ideal for hunting. Well, maybe this time next year, after hunting season, someone will get the nerve to try and post the results.

I've not said a whole bunch on this thread but have I have some time, so I am gonna weigh in with some experiences I've had with my 7 Mashburn Super and another thought and or three.

First off, the 257 Roberts has been a super hunting round for a long time. I don't know of anyone who would dispute its ability to take game with either a good 100 grainer and or the 115/117/120's.

I can't see as there is much for diff between the Roberts and the 7/08 with the 120's. And yet people just love to discredit the lil 7 with the lighter slugs?

The other thing I was gonna say is that over the last 4 hunting falls I've used a different weight TSX each year in my Mashburn. I started off with the 160, then the 140, then the 150 and then last year the 120.

That old gun each year is used by me, my wife and several friends to take deer/elk/bear/lopes and of course a few yotes...grins.

I'd guess that in many year it'll take as many critters as most people will take in a decade or two of hunting. Point being is that each year it takes quite a bit of game hence the bullet testing has been fairly extensive (but not super extensive).

I can honestly say that in the taking of critters from 100 yds to 520 yds that between the 120/140/150/160 TSX (which all shot very well in my old 7), I or the others that used it could not tell for the life of them any difference between the heavies and lighter ones.

They all had one thing in common, a good bullet directed in the proper direction had similar results, and it wasn't favorable for the volunteers....grins

Lastly, I would submit that no one other than a bugger eating maroon would argue that the good old 270 with a 130 in it is anything but a super game killer.

The more I am around the lil 7/08 the more I feel pretty much the same about it. How on earth anyone would/could see that the lil rifle with a 120 TSX would be anything but a superb taker of game is beyond me. To me it only shows a lack of experience with said rounds and said bullets and a total lack of time in the fields taking game.

Confidence in gear comes thru using it and seeing it used. I've no doubt that the ones supporting the lil 120 TSX have used it enough to be confident in it. I know I've seen it in action enough out of my big 7 to feel very confident in how it would work in the lil 7.

If you said Dober, here is a 7/08 and some 120 TSX's go forth and hunt the world. I would do so and with the exception of a small handful of critters I would hunt all without nary a concern.

This stuff aint a rocket science, use a good bullet, direct it in a proper manner, wreck enough of the critters critical functioning gear and the critter is gonna be taking a dirt nap right quick.

Mark D

well maybe that was 4 cents worth

Mark ... there's one problem in your argument ...


it makes WAY too much sense for someone like Lee24 to understand it ... (grin)

WGM-I am not a gonna argue with anyone over what I have learned thru experience.

I've used the 120 as well as the 140/150/160 and I am here to tell you that in and day out people are not gonna ever see a diff.

Make sense?

Dober

Almost too much sense ... I've had a 7mmRemMag and my 7-08 ... have shot 120, 140, and 160's from the 7RM, and have shot 120 and 140's from the 'lil 7 ...

I know this gets said a lot around here ... but a good bullet, placed properly, is going to do the job ...

and while I still love the 7mmRM, I can't imagine very many situations at all where I'd feel like I required it's use over my 7mm-08 spitting out 120g TSXs ...

Great post Mark....appreciated

Mark, DWS...

Also, if you continue to speak from experience you're gonna ruin everyone's internet bulletin board fantasies... (grin).

Mac-if you got the time give me a shout at the house, I just finished a lil pizza for breakfast...grins

Dober

And now you are doing exactly that to the TSX!!

I don't see in any of your posts where you mention even one head of game you've killed, only that some bullets "work" or are accurate, even when asked directly. A significant omission!

How many big game animals, and what types, have you killed with a 7-08?

I suspect the answer is zero and that you will dodge the question and attack my experience without answering yourself...

Or, you could post some pics of your experience and rise to expert status immediately!

castandblast, I don't see you talking about even owning a 7mm-08.

I came to it about 5 years ago, when I picked up one cheap for a youth deer rifle. I was impressed, and last year bought a BLR in it. I will probably buy another, in a full sized bolt action, when I find the right one. So far, it has been just a deer rifle for me. I like it.

Yes, I agree with the .257 Roberts killing some big game with the right 115 to 120-gr load (heavy for caliber), and the .270 does well with the 130-gr on some bigger game, but that is also basically a deer load. Only when you get into some of the tougher 140s and 150s (heavy for caliber) does the .270 become fit for bear, hogs, and other big game.

I am not going to experiment with deer bullets on big game when I have big game loads that shoot well in my rifle. What's the point? Flat shooting 120-gr 7mms...irrelevant at 100 to 200 yards. At 300, the 140s and 154s deliver more energy, and I they are certainly more reliable at close range and more moderate velocities. I am not going to be shooting big game at 300 yards, because there is no sport in it for me. If I were, I would be using a 7mm Rem Mag or .300 Win Mag with heavier bullets.

The bullet to start reloading in the 7mm-08 or 7x57 is the Remington 140-gr CoreLokt. It is cheap and damn good. Rifle and shotgun shooters are like golfers - a lot of them reach the stage of obsessing about equipment when what they need is better technique and more practice to build confidence. It is a stage most of them pass through in a few years.

Good thoughts Mark, and thanks for sharing them. I don't use a 7-08 myself, but steered my wife in that direction when her time came. So far, the load development has started and stopped with Hornady 139 BTSPs, and they have been precise and utterly reliable on deer and antelope, as one might expect. Recently, her urges are to include elk in her endeavors, and I have been thinking about moving to the TSX in 120 or 140 grains. She is a cool shot who picks her aiming point well. The choice between those two bullet weights will likely be made based on group size, with complete confidence in the pill and her being up to the task.

You were 100% correct as to dodging the question.And not one mention of a single big game kill with the 7mm-08.

Dober,
Great post!! You can lead a horse (internet pundit) to water but.........

grin

thx Huntr, not bad for a lefty eh...grins

Funny thing about experience is that you don't have to guess and you don't have to duck and juke...

Dober

Indeed.

Why would anybody fabricate experience with a cartridge they've never blooded to influence the cartridge/bullet selection of people they don't know nor will they likely ever meet?

It's absolutely astonishing!!!!!!

It's the internet!

I answered the question directly. The 7mm-08 is a deer rifle for me. No 120-gr bullets are "all-around big game bullets" - not for me, not for those of you haven't tried them on big game, not for the manufacturers.

The 140-gr TSX is an obvious candidate for an "all around big game bullet", but so are a lot of other 140-gr bullets that we don't have to guess about, because 1,000,000 hunters have already used them with great success: Remington Core-Lokt, Hornady, Speer, Sierra, Nosler.

If some of you can't get the 140s or 154s to shoot in your rifles, that is another issue.

Seems to me that any of the four above would work sufficiently. Seems other's experiences posted here on the 120 TSX back up your thoughts. Hope you find one that shoots lights-out.

You made no attempt to answer the one below.

Lee24

We are still waiting on a picture of you with any type of game that you have killed with any type of weapon........... Are you unable to post a picture because you are to busy shooting another 600,000 rounds of handgun amunition....

Lee24 Which one is you? One of the two standing or the one hanging?......

Call it what you want, but at this point it is only a paper-puncher for you. (Unless an ill-fated fly landed on your target and caught a bullet).

Until you use your 7-08 to kill game you are only doing what you accuse others of doing. The hypocrisy is astounding:











.....since you have no results to post this year. If you do come up with some, post them somewhere else because you've fabricated enough here.

I guess I hit a sore spot when I mentioned that none of the fans of the 120-gr TSX had actually yet tried it on big game. I searched the Internet a bit, and couldn't find any deer hunters who stumbled up on a bear or boar and dispatched it with a 120-gr TSX in a 7mm-08, either. No mention of it on the Barnes site, either.

Well, maybe by December we'll have some posters with real world experience. I'll keep using the 120-BT or Remmy on deer, and the 139 and heavier if I take a 7mm-08 after a bear or hog.

Bears aint tough....they are thin skinned and when shot correctly they aint hard to kill....EXPERIENCE tells me that.

Anyways, I guess you seem to be as much of an armchair sniper as you accuse others of being....

I have never used anything lighter than 150 grains from a .270 on bears, but if you ever happen to kill one with the 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08, let us know how it worked, and why you used it instead of a heavier bullet at lower velocity.

Why would I have to tell you WHY I decided to use it? I can tell you right now why I would.....I would have confidence in the bullet, I would know how it shot, and I would trust how it would perform. I also wouldnt give a rats azz if someone else thought it was too 'light' because he simply had a bias and liked playing the numbers games....

How many bears have you killed? I've been on easily over 20 kills myself by the age of 25....black bears aint a big tough animal.....

If the only reason that you pick heavier bullet at a lower velocity is personal choice and preference, thats fine....but realize that others will have differnet points of view as well. I havent shot any game with the 7-08....but your comments are ridiculous. Its like hearing that the 7-08 aint big enough for deer from magnum shoots......lol

I see that you claim to have used nothing lighter than 150 grains on bear and since you refuse to post a picture of any animal that you have taken then this leave only one conclusion You wounded and lost the bear thus you have no picture to post

I guess that you had your blinders on when this was posted.From a previous post on this very thread,Actual experience with the 120gr tsx on a boar.

Lee24 ignores all that he doesn't agree with........ I think that he just Trolls

I did a search also and came up with a few from a former Campfire member:

From this post: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...&topic=0&Search=true#Post1131762


From this post: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1045672/page/0/fpart/1



FTR, I have NOT shot a deer with the 120 TSX. That's why I'm loading some up now. I believe Dober knows of which he speaks, and saw enough pictures from Stick and the Alaska boys to be convinced...

I went back and looked at your post. You said you used a 140-gr TSX from the 7mm-08 on deer. Did you forget to mention using the 120-grainer on something? Please give us the details.

Nope. I said this:



I just purchased my 7-08 from Cliff444 this year, and it's the first 7-08 I've had, so I haven't shot anything with it.

Actually, I am also going to try some 120 BT's and noted that you used them too. Any load data would be helpful!

So now we have confirmation that the 120gr tsx has been successfully used on boar and moose with great results,and that the 120gr xbt has been successfully used on bears and elk.

Until I see a photo, I believe you hunt bear like you hunt deer with a 7-08, punch paper and then spout off about what loads others should use based on something you read in a book. You can't be relied upon when you've been fabricating field experience, period. I wouldn't put it past you to fabricate photos, you're that obsessed with influencing people.....

You have flushed all hope of crediblilty for the sake of influencing somebody to use 7-08 loads that you haven't even shot game with yourself. You have consistently over time established yourself as the consumate armchair game killer. Way to go, ole buddy.......

I have personally killed a black bear with a 120gr ballistic tip out of my 7mm-08.I also killed a moose with a 140gr solid base out of a 7mm-08.

I've killed a bunch of stuff with 140 grain Fusions out of my 7-08 so far, but the 120 TSX will get its chance.

IIRC, the lady from Alaska killed a big black bear with the 120 TSX, and there was video to show it.

DJ

I have never left a wounded animal in the woods... not even a rabbit or a squirrel. I have had quail that my dog couldn't find.

Now, jwp, what about those pictures of the big game you've shot with the 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08? And tell us why you used a light bullet at high velocity instead of a proven heavier bullet at moderate velocity.

I won't be posting about marginal, unethical shots with the .223 or .243, either. Go somewhere else to get your thrills.

Lee,

I have killed quite a bit of stuff with a 120gr TSX out of a 7-08. It works just dandy. Probably a dozen hogs and one deer.

I chose it because it recoils less, flys flatter, and hits hards (IMO). When using a well constructed bullet, impact velocity does make a difference, in my observations.

Let me turn that around and ask you why you would use an inferior heavier bullet, that recoils more and does not shoot as flat at hunting ranges?

Charley ... LOL ... don't hold your breath, waiting on a good answer to that one ...

Yeah, I know. This is the same rocket scientist that a couple years back tried to argue that a 375 H&H was totally ineffective on deer.

It is ... don't you know that!? .... <rolls eyes>

This is the same .223/deer argument except this is even more far-fetched IMHO....I'm not getting into this one as I do not own a 7-08 nor do I shoot TSX's...

Same ole, same ole....

Someone voicing their opinion on something they feel or read in Field and Stream without having experienced what they are arguing against for themselves...

Plain and simple, the campfire slogan "experience trumps everything"....

I'd listen to the folks who have been there/done that but then again that's just my way of thinking....grin...

Why do some people think their experience on small deer means the same round will work fine on elk, moose and bear?

Why does CAS just make stuff up, like that fib about the .375 H&H? I guess school is out for the summer.

Dude you have amazing flame retardance............

I'm starting to think you actually believe most of what you post.

Have you ever shot a TSX into ........ say anything?

bwinters, are you adding your name of to the list of those who have not shot big game with the 120-gr TSX from the 7mm-08?

Lee ...

if you consider deer 'big game', then there are quite a few people here who have killed 'big game' with the 120g TSX ... from 7mm-08 chamberings no less ...

You shouldn't be requesting confirmation on that fact, since it's been widely discussed here ad nauseum, across many different forums from Big Game Hunting to Deer Hunting to Hunting Rifles to Custom Rifles to Reloading to etc ...

The fact that you question whether or not people here have taken game with the 120g TSX shows that you are either completely ignorant to the discussions that take place here, or that you're incapable of reading/comprehending the English language ... and since you continue to post here, I can only assume that you are adept at the latter, which only means that you're incredibly ignorant, and attempting to stir the pot ...

You've yet to answer most of the simple questions here, and have danced around the more complicated ones with irrelevant rhetoric to try to spin things back away from you ... Unfortunately, most here are perceptive enough to realize that, and only sit back laughing at you.

Until you actually have something insightful to say, or until you plan on addressing the questions that have been posed to you, I highly recommend (for your own good really) that you remove the flame suit, and step away from the keyboard ...

I'll bet somehow I'm going to get disqualified for using a 7 Mag and/or a 280.

Likely also for shooting those puny PA deer as well.

Pontificate on.

If you download to 7mm-08 muzzle speeds or shoot the game farther away to emulate the 7mm-08, that would be valid. A PA deer, however, is not big game like a big bear, wild boar, elk, mountain goat or moose. Sorry.

I like the 120s out of my 7mm-08. Turns it into a .250 Savage with a mild load, and a .257 Roberts or .25-06 with a normal load - and none of those .25s are big game rifles.

The Response by Lee24 [Quote]
I have never left a wounded animal in the woods... not even a rabbit or a squirrel. I have had quail that my dog couldn't find.

Now, jwp, what about those pictures of the big game you've shot with the 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08? And tell us why you used a light bullet at high velocity instead of a proven heavier bullet at moderate velocity.

I won't be posting about marginal, unethical shots with the .223 or .243, either. Go somewhere else to get your thrills.

Top
[quote]


In reguards to the statement in bold,I believe that...Because it appears that you have not shot at any game,much less taken any............



Lee24, you are avoiding the question and still refuseing to post a pisture of any game Animal that you have ever taken with any Cartridge...................................

We are still waiting......... We are confused as to why you can not produce a picture....

Fib? Really?

How about these pearls of wisdon from a thread YOU started about the 375 H&H for deer...................









Let's not even start to talk about your dissertation on bending stocks using anhydrous amonia, or the treatiste that you graced us with about the origins of walnut trees that was wrong on nearly every single point.

I am not sure who wins the crown for spewing the most BS while believing it themselves and convincing themselves that others believe it too, you or Savage_99. It is a close race though.......

OMFG that's about the best post I've seen in a LONG time ... TFF!!!

Quit it......

Let me guess, you've never shot a 100 TSX from a 25-06 or some other "non big-game" caliber.

Is there a specificty on the size of big game? Say like 237 lbs on up? Or is limited to species? Do elk/moose fawns count?

This gets betterer and betterer.

it's already the betterest! but somehow, I expect it to continue up the ladder ...

it almost defies all logic, that it can continue to escalate ...

HAHA.....man those are some funny posts.....

Lee....you crack me up. Plain and simple....thats funny.

IOW, none of you have any experience (yet) with the 120-gr TSX on big game, and you still can't find anyone who has.

Having owned 5 different .375 H&Hs, I know that any load from it will kill a deer, and I would use a light load for deer hunting for practice. While it is inappropriate for small game and deer, it will kill them reliably - while .257 Roberts class bullets from a 7mm will not.

If you try the 120 TSX and end up with a wounded or lost animal, will you be man enough to confess it here? That's the real test.

Yea...I'd confess it.....but wounding/losing an animal aint gonna happen because of 20 grains of difference in weight. Once you do some hunting and get out there, you'll realize that shot placement is the key. If I lost an animal, it would be due to bad shooting, not the bullet I used. In the end though, I'd also be man enough to answer the questions asked of me and post pictures of my kills, rather than spout off about nonsense and avoid questions....

Do you not read all the posts and see that YES in fact, there have been people on THIS thread that have posted results with a 120TSX and boars, moose, etc????!?!?!

I'm not sure your assumption is valid yet.

We are waiting on you to define the exact big game parameters. In this thread or others, everytime someone brings some thing relevant up you simply re-define the argument.

Please state exact species, weight and location - I'll bet you get some takers (and a few pics)

Might want to be careful on 25 cal "non-big game" statements. Let me give you a hint - pics can probably be located in short order.
'Nother hint: may want to do a search on 25-06 and "Big Game".

I'm sure they'll be anomalies of some sort......

Lee ... I just started using the 120g TSX last year, when I got my 7mm-08 ... shot two rounds at game, got two dead deer from them ... sorry, I don't have pictures ... don't carry a camera with me when hunting, but did take pictures of one of the bullets that was recovered when I made about a 200 yard shot, lengthwise, on a doe ... found the bullet under the 'offside' hide ...

Here's the picture ... it's actually three different shots of the same bullet, so you can CLEARLY see what it did ...




For the record, you're in ignorant prick that excels at trying to piss people off for no reason that I can think of. You expect us to believe whatever you say w/out showing any proof, but refuse to believe anything that anyone else has to say unless they can unequivocally prove it, or unless they agree with you.

I've never said this to anyone here before, but you are truly someone that would most benefit this forum by packing up and leaving, never to return. You bring nothing to the table, and worse yet, you only spew mis-information and bullcrap ...

I'm glad I don't know you in person, because I think it would be too impossible for me to accept the fact that a person like you can truly exist, and not just be some kind of 'thing' behind a keyboard that MIGHT be just trying to screw with people ... again, it scares me to think you really are as ignorant and juvenile as you have proven yourself to be on this forum ...

for my 2 cents. Two shots on game with a 120X at 3K-ish velocity. One deer 165 lbs dressed at 35 yards, one pig of 120 lbs at 75 yards. Result two dead critters right there. Here's the bullet from the pig. The bullet on the deer may still be going for all I know.

How you can compare a .284 bullet to a .257 at even the same velocity and call them equal is beyond me.

Might also want to check in on Eleanor O'Conner and what she did with a .257 and bullets very far below in capability with what we have today before you say a 257 Roberts is not a big game rifle.

Or ask one of our gunwriters what he thinks about the "non-big game" capabilities of the Bob!

Am also thinkng Bob Milek used a 25-06 on alot of elky creatures.......

Now of a father-son team in Colorado doing same with the 25 non-big game cal.

The Response by Lee24



We are still waiting......... and I believe that we will be waiting for ever...........

Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem,since the quotes below are from posts on this very thread.

Jwp, Stick's on your side on this one.......

OK, how about this one?

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...Board/33/page/1/fpart/all/gonew/1#UNREAD

I'll save you from having to look it up:

And another post from that thread:

Persuaded by overwhelming actual field experience involving actual photos of actual dead game, I believe I need to try a 120TSX in my 7-08 this fall.

But, what about Lee24's opion that the 120 in the 7-08 is inadequate based on his non experience..... did you not consider Lee24's non experience?.... Doesn't Lee24's voice of non reason Matter?...

Laffin' here!

But you forget. All you really have to do to be an expert is consume oxygen on this planet for a long time and read about what other people have done. Then you're set to advise and influence others on any topic that they ask about without ever getting out of your chair and trying anything yourself. (Sarcasm there....)

Hey Lee-
Tell us your list of lifetime game kills and the cartridges you used. My own list is pretty short so I'm sure there would be something for me to learn there.

No fabrication allowed on this one though.

After seeing how this 100grn .257 TSX from a Bob performed, I'd say a 120 TSX from a 7-08 or 7X57 would be very suitable for game much larger than deer, as others have stated from their experience.
Hell, I wouldn't turn down an Elk or Black Bear hunt if all I had was this Bob / TSX combo.

This was one set of pics I had in mind.

The other is from a year or so back on a 25-06 thread. I'll look for it because if I remember right there were several elk, bears and sheep pics from various people using 100 TSX from the non-big game 25 cal (25-06).

This thread has been entertaining .

If you think the .257 Roberts is an all-around big game cartridge that is superior to the 7x57 with bullets 139 grains and heavier, then you'll like the 7mm-08 with .25-caliber class bullets.

So I guess we have a disagreement on hunting ethics, which some people mistake for their superior technical opinion, even though it is based on Barnes ad copy and shooting a few deer.

Kevin,

We all know that bullet expanded in the ground on the other side of your deer............<grin>

In fact, the muzzle blast probably killed the deer.

Not superior to the 7X57 with 140 class "well constructed" bullets, but definitely out of the deer-only classification.

If'n I've a Roberts with a 115 TSX, and a Rigby with a 140 TSX I darn well guarantee you that either one I point and direct a bullet in the proper manner is gonna result in one very dead critter!

Dober

I am glad someone finally found an example of a 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08 working on a bear - not that the TSX faithful needed any real world examples.

So why did the hunter use the 120-gr instead of the 140-gr TSX, when the 140-to-160 class bullets from every manufacturer have a proven track record of working for 100 years?

A lot of shooters seem to be infatuated with muzzle exit speed, and the easiest way to obtain that is light-for-caliber bullets. Downrange impact speed, energy, and momentu at expected range is the more important hunting criteria.

Mark, do you think your 115-gr .257 round is the equivalent of your 140-gr 7x57 round? I guarantee not.

I spect in another 100 years one can be saying the same thing about the 120 to 160 class. And if a 120 bullet the class of the TSX had been around for the last few decades then this wouldn't be a debate for most anyone.

This aint rocket science, put a good bullet in a proper place and things are gonna die!

Did you (Lee) read my post about using the 120-160's out of my Mashburn and finding no none natta diff in how they killed?

Seriously bud you need to find a way to spend more time using some of these things and thinking out of the box a bit.

The darn lil bullets will work period.

I run the 85 TSX in my 6/06 and there isn't anything in my country (Montana) that I would be afraid to carry it for.

Dober

Lee-I guarantee I've got enough experience to say exactly what I said here.

Seriously bud, you're like a dog with a bone with this thing. What you need is to get out experience the world a bit. I encourage you to rack up some experience with the matter, and then get back to us.

If you found a way to think out of the box and do something out of the norm of old you may just learn something!

I aint gonna sit here and debate this with you either. I pretty well have you sorted out.

Get back to cutting the ends off the roast Lee.

Mark D

Dude your killing me again.........

Ever shoot anything with a Speer Hot Cor? Shot numerous deer with 145 Speers in the early 80's from my 280 (please excuse that its not a 7mm-08). They rarely exited on our puny PA deer. Same thing for 140 Sierra's.

You are either: A. very young/inexperienced, or; B. very old and haven't taken note of bullet advances in the past 10 years.

Either way you need to listen more, talk less.

There could be a C. Pot Stirrer with flame proof skin.

In retrospect, you're damn entertaining. 16 pages and counting.......

A quick thought for you to ponder: Does retained weight and final bullet shape have any bearing on penetration and momentum?

If you think not, try this test. 458 Win, 400 gr Speer at any 458 speed, 120 TSX from a 7mm-08. Let me know which penetrates further. Good luck finding enough bullet from the 458 to weigh.

I'd also suggest trying penetration testing with your fabled 140-160 grain cup-core bullets over the 120 TSX.

If you'd like to see pictures of cup-core bullets vs X's let me know, I've got bunches.

I just ask simple questions you folks avoid answering - which is the answer.

Why use a 120-gr TSX over any good 140-gr or heavier 7mm bullet on big game - not deer and antelope?

Do you seriously think the .257 Roberts with any 115 or 120 grain bullet is the equivalent of the 7x57 with 140-gr bullet of similar construction? Remember, the .257R is based on the 7x57.

Try to give up your ad hominem fantasies about me and deal with my points. Or just admit you are not making a reasoned argument, but just disagree with my higher standards of hunting ethics.

Quit feeding the troll ya'll....

You're right Lee.

I'll appologize for using my 30+ years of experience with various 7mm's as a basis for my opinions. The 40-50 deer I've killed with various 7mm's don't count either. Neither does a couple of 7mm black bears.

You're right, I'm delusional. As is everyone else that responds to your posts.

We're all wrong and you're the only one with a valid viewpoint.

I appologize again.

For the record: yes. A 115-120 gr.,257 = 140 gr., 7x57 if you're talking X's. But again X's are so similar to cup-core, I'm not sure why Randy Brooks dreamed them up. We certainly didn't need them.......... in your world.

Had enough of this drivel.

Are you that dense? The hunter chose it for the same reason that has been stated before. Because he felt the bullet was strong enough, accurate enough, and a good choice for the game he shot. It obvisouly has been a good choice for many....If the 140-160 bullets are so special to you, why do you use the 120 BT on deer? I personally would feel much better with a better bullet than the 120 BT for deer up here, but I dont cut down your choices on the selection. YOu choose it because its what works for you....I'm sure the 120 BT hasnt been around for 100 years...

You amaze me Lee....an internet jockey that questions others choices because of what you've read in the past. Get out there and get some experience under your belt bud. Once again we ask you.....list your kills and experience.....

Continue avoiding and re-directing...it works great for ya....obviously just shows your lack of experience and the high level of ignorance.....

This almost aint funny....

Lee24,

When you say: "Try to give up your ad hominem fantasies about me and deal with my points. Or just admit you are not making a reasoned argument, but just disagree with my higher standards of hunting ethics." - you sound like an ass.

For you, or anyone else to suggest that 20 grains of bullet weight in a 7mm rifle is going to make any friggin difference on game - especially in a bullet like the TSX, either means you haven't hunted enough big game, or you are delusional.

Why do people use lighter than average bullets with Barnes bullets? One good reason might be that Barnes suggests you try them that way - for starters.

If a person finds that a particular bullet shoots well in his rifle, penetrates adequately and kills game quickly, why shouldn't he use it?

A 120 grain Barnes TSX will outpenetrate a lot of traditional 140, 150, 160 and even 175 grain cup and core bullets. So, if the game is falling quickly when shot at - and if your rifle shoots better with the 120's why wouldn't you use it?

I believe that most of the people who answered this thread have a LOT more hunting experience than you do, and I, like many others are waiting to see a selection of pictures of the big game you have shot.

To hear you suggest that because you use heavier bullets that you have a "higher standard of hunting ethics" makes me want to puke.

P.S. I've shot many a moose, some really big bears, and some big bull elk with the "inadequate" little 25 calibers shooting puny little 100 and 115 grain Barnes bullets...I won't even begin to list what I've shot with 7mm's...

Here's a photo of a black bear killed with a 25 caliber and a Barnes bullet.

Here's an elk that fell to a little 25 also.

Here's my 7mm-08 Remington Titanium - I know about 7mm-08's.

BCBrian,
All that experience means nothing to Lee....he'll just call you unethical because he read it somewhere that you need giant bullets to kill game. Almost sounds like someone who read too much Elmer Keith and hasnt come into the new world of bullets and firearms....

(No offence to old Elmer...he's one cool dude, but his writings dont really hold true in todays world of premiums IMO)

Lee's a lost cause...a rookie with a chip on his shoulder who thinks that book reading is everything and yet has nothing to show for his attitude..

You are probably right Rackmastr.

Here's an exceptionally large bodied Mule deer that fell to, yes, another inadequate 120 grain Barnes - out of a 7mm rifle - because the bullet kept on going I was unable to post a picture of it to show how inadequately it performed .

Last year these same TSX worshippers were shouting at me for questioning their advocacy of .30-caliber magnums shooting 150, 165, and 180-gr TSX bullets deer at close range. Now they insist that a much lighter TSX is the perfect all around 7mm bullet for big game at long range.

I guess any weight TSX bullet, in any caliber, at any speed, is the perfect bullet for any game at any range. Sure makes life easy.

10-4 on that.

BTW, nice critters Brian.

Carl

And yet another little bear - this time a brown, that fell to, yep - you guessed it - another poorly chosen, 7mm 120 grain Barnes...Doesn't my lack of hunting ethics make you want to scream! Imagine someone trying to kill a bear like this - with a bullet like that...
What made this kill interesting was the manner in which it happened. At the shot, the bear tipped over - in his tracks, and for a second all four paws pointed stiffly straight up towards the sky, until slowly they rolled over on to the gound too. Again, the little 7mm 120 grain Barnes bullet broke BOTH shoulders - and kept on going, thus leaving me without any more "proof" of the poor performance of which you speak...

Nice stuff Brain.

I look at it this way a 150 grain 7mm NP will lose lets say 1/3 the weight leaving roughly a 100 grain bullet to do most of the penetration.
Where the TSX don't lose nuttin so all 120 grains are doing the job.

See there is some hope for you after all, you're beginning to come around!

Dober

Actual tests show the Barnes X and TSX retaining 79 to 89% of their original weight, with the faster bullets losing more. So a 120-gr monolithic bullet can be expected to retain about 96 grains. Some may do better, some worse, but you can EXPECT about 80%. In the same tests, same media, same velocity, other bullets retained more weight (up to 96%), while others retained less ( down to 60%, like a Nosler Partition ).

Weight retention is only one indicator of terminal ballistics, and it is simplistic to fixate on it. Most bullets with high weight retention opened more slowly, and had greater penetration because their wound channels were so narrow.

There is no evidence that the 120-gr TSX is superior to the 140-gr TSX in the 7mms, much less the equal of other heavier bullets.

My personal actual tests have shown they work like a charm and the couple that I've found have been at 100 %.

There is also no evidence that the 140 is superior, either one directed at game in an intelligent manner is gonna kill.

Seriously Lee, get a grip, get some experience and stop cutting the ends off the darn roast!

Dober

I actually agree with Lee on the upper weight vs lower weight bullets. That is why I've been using the 75gr bullets in my 223AI to kill deer vice the 55grainers.......

Unfortunately I can't know how the 115's work in 25 caliber guns, but I do know how these work.

(For those with a week mind and stomach, look away NOW or you might notice some 277 caliber TSX's on the fair right of the picture that weigh 110grs).



Might have to throw up a pic of the boxes of 277cal 100gr X bullets I have to see if I can get someone into an epileptic seizure...

Hmmmmmmm, changing our tune, are we, Lee? You posted the above on 7/11/2006.

I think you have actually managed to surpass the mighty Savage_99 as the most myopic and FOS poster actively on the board now. Congratulations.

Mark is right, back away from the magazines and keyboard and go actually hunt a little bit. It may just open your eyes.

That's some funny chit there......

WRONG AGAIN!!! - MOST of the time Barnes TSX's or X's loose less than 1 or 2% on game. It's quite unusual for a modern Barnes to loose all of it's petals.

These observations are based on my real test results re: actual dead big game.

Still waiting to see proof of your real (as opposed to "book") prowess hunting big game. A good bunch of photo's of you with the dead animals will do - photos of actual mounted heads aren't necessary.

PLEASE post them! - Many of us are waiting...

...or STILL waiting

Yes, CAS, I touted the Nosler BT 120-gr out of the 7mm-08 both as a reduced youth load and full steam...for DEER. Deer ain't elk or moose.

Again, we are back to some of you shooting one animal with some bullet and/or cartridge we are not discussing, and somehow thinking that is "proof" that the other untried or once-tried bullet will work on something in a totally different class of animal. Illogical. Love is blind.

And one animal shot with one undersized, marginal load does not negate the ballistics laboratory research which showed it to be unsuitable for that application. Even Barnes doesn't ballyhoo their 120-grainer as a big game bullet. They make heavier ones for that.

What animals have you shot with the 120 TSX's out of a 7mm-08?

What animals have you shot?

Are you Don's neighbor?

I posted about 13 that I have shot (it's probably more) with the EXACT combination being discussed.

How many animals have you killed, ever? How many have you killed with the 7-08? How many have you killed with a 7mm 120gr bullet?

If the total combined number of all three answers is above zero, I'll be shocked.

Let's call it a consensus that you should just STFU and stick to things you actually know about. There has got to be a pottery forum around here somewhere........

This is a joke...obviously Lee knows nothing about hunting, and only looks to argue about things he doenst understand.

Getting very pointless and tiresome to see him change his tone....

Lee,
You're an idiot....I've had enough. Until you provide actual experience or results, you can spout off all you want about what you "THINK".....good luck kid.

HOLY COW Batman, this Lee24 is really the Joker...

CAS, since you seem to be the only one with any experience using the 120 TSX, why do you prefer it to the 140-gr TSX for big game?

Barnes doesn't seem to.

I've already covered that........ As have a bunch of other people who have used it successfully on big game.

I chose it because it recoils less, flys flatter, and hits hard (IMO). When using a well constructed bullet, impact velocity does make a difference, in my observations.

It'll outdig any 154gr cup and core bullet that I have ever used.

Heavy for caliber bullets made sense when the only bullets available were wretched POS's. Great bullets allow one FAR more flexibility in both their effectiveness and the ability to go lighter and reap the benefits.

Killing stuff is only difficult in the minds of those who have not done it.

Well, my experience is they retain 99.916% but I'll give you rounding

Lee24-
The core issue has nothing to do with the TSX. The core issue now is whether you have ever killed anything bigger than a mosquito, and whether you've used more than a flyswatter to do it.

It's not in your nature to be modest about your engineering credentials, your paper punching credentials, or your handgun practice round-count, so why are you so shy about listing your game killing credentials unless you have none?

What you refuse to say speaks much louder about your level of experience than two years of posting about what you've read ever could. It's time to silence the critics by posting your list of game killed. Come on, don't be so modest!

I think they have Field & Stream next to the pottery wheel........

The core issue for a handful of TSX worshippers is that they get their panties in a wad and go to personal attacks and talking about how "their buck is bigger than his buck". Some of them still have their backs up from my original posts of real world, controlled tests of various bullets that showed the Barnes stuff not performing any better than many cup and core and otherh premium bullets. The claims of retaining 99% weight are just bunk - only when they fail to open.

I have posted all these tests by bullet makers, ballistics labs, rifle makers, the US Army, US Marine Corps, and the same few refuse to believe any of it. They think they know more from a shooting a few boxes of bullets than those engineers and marksment who shoot all day for a living.

Maybe you should get your own thread where you won't be threatened by the facts and those who explain things you can't understand. That's as politely as I can put it.

I don't know what core issue that you are talking about,but the core issue that everyone eles is talking about is Lee24

I can start a new thread if you want, but I'll have the same question for you over there:

"Have you killed any game?"

Here's the forum he's had trouble locating:

http://www.craftsforum.co.uk

They'll likely be dazzled by his ballistics expertise......

The core issue for most of us tsx supporters is that unlike you we have actually used the tsx to take big game.And as of yet,we have seen nothing to convince us that you have taken big game using any bullet.

Spot on pot on, stubblejumper.......Lee24 does not like it when some one clouds the issue with undisputable REAL WORLD PROOF..........

he challenged us all to post pics of bullets/game with respect to the 7mm-08 + 120g TSX proper ... and we did ...

still, no acknowledgment of the fact we have been successful with that combo ... further, he decides to shift the argument to "ok, besides deer, who's taken 'big game' (i.e. bear, elk, moose) with a 120g TSX from a 7mm-08?" ... or something like that ...

suffice it to say, it's useless to continue to argue our point, as we've proven it many times over ... Lee24 has yet to make any case at all for himself, or any of his ridiculous arguments/assertions ...

Another POST THAT IS SPOT ON.......... Lee24 are you ever going to post anything that has you and an animal in it that maybe you acctauly took??..... I dought it.........

[/quote]

Another POST THAT IS SPOT ON.......... Lee24 are you ever going to post anything that has you and an animal in it that maybe you acctauly took??..... I dought it......... [/quote]



Prolly not, but he might be creating a beauty from clay, wood, bronze or glass right now. I'm guessing he's purely captivated by that craft website by now.....

When I get back to the load bench, I've several boxes of 120 TSX's waiting to be loaded for my 7mm-08. I like to cuss Barnes, but mind you, while I am cussing them, I'm also loading them in many of my rifles.

Have killed at least a dozen hogs with the 120 tsx. Anything from 100 lb to 350 lbs. Killed a couple of whitetail does with 'em and hammered a 250 lb. Axis buck. 7MM-08 and 120 tsx is a wicked combo.

Feral hogs and small deer do constitute some evidence of the killing power, but still no big game, and no effort to argue why the 120 TSX is superior to the 140 TSX or other heavier bullets.

OK guys ... who's shot a Cape Buffalo or an elephant with a 7mm-08, using a 120g TSX ? Cuz we ALL know that it won't work ... you have to use the 140g TSX out of the 7mm-08 to take "big game" ...

OMFG I'm about to pee my pants I'm laughing so hard ...

So damn funny. Good size bear's with a .284 Barnes 120 and a dang big deer (with a 25 cal Barnes)to say the least and he says no "Big game" funny from a guy with no game that he's shown us. Lee, you're a funny guy. Not the ha ha funny either.

I wish BS were still here, so he could tell Lee how he's going to take a huge bear with his .223AI using 53g TSX's ... (grin)

Lee as all can easily tell you're simply full of chit. Bottom line is you've clearly ignored stories of Deer, Hogs, Bear, Elk and Moose etc. sprinkled throughout this thread all taken with the 120 tsx outa a 7MM-08. Your weak and constantly changing criteria are as transparent as you're attempts to bait people. You have no real argument nor experience and have put forth the 154 gr. as your chosen solution, why when a 175 gr. bullet is available in 7MM would you support such a light and apparently inadequate bullet. Perhaps your next argument will be that the 7MM is inadequate as a caliber and anything less than a 375 is beneath your humane minimum. I've yet to hear anyone other than you suggest that the 140 is not superior, but rather that it is perhaps not a minimum requirement nor necessary in real world use. I'm pretty sure you've been chastised more than once for this sorta crap, so why don't you just give it a rest.

Basically a deer load? Tell that to the 3 bull elk and 15 black bears that my rifle has killed since I bought it. Not to mention 20 blacktails, some over 200 lbs field dressed.

I have no experience myself with the 7mm 120 grn, but my buddy kills alot of deer with it and a nice black bear.

Why does he shoot the 120's in his 7mm and I the 130's in my .270? Because our rifles like those loads and they kill game.

I value all experience, some being more relevant than others, much of the postings here totally irrelevant to the topic, due to lack of actual experience with the bullet many BELIEVE to be the best.

So far, none of them can even explain why they FEEL that the 120-gr TSX is superior to the 140-gr TSX for big game, much less better than other premium bullets.

dude ... if you require more 'evidence' than that which has already been presented to you, it's hopeless for all of us.

You claim that 120g 7mm bullets are not 'proper' (for lack of a better term) and that a higher weight bullet should be used...

we showed you countless examples of what we KNOW to be perfect bullet performance, and DEAD game due to said bullet performance ...

YOU have shown us nothing, other than your rantings about what you THINK is the best option ...

and you continue to 'wonder'? ... continue marching on in your blissful ignorance ... it serves you well ...

Do a search you f'ing idiot. Big Stick posted a moose killed via 7-08 120 TSX. Search the word "Dinkwinkle". AKGirl posted a huge black bear killed with a 120 TSX out of a 7-08. Check the Alaska section of the board. Several have related the taking of elk with the 120 TSX. Steve Timm (Dogzapper) has related the taking of numerous elk with a 120 Ballistic Tip. If those aren't "big game", you must be talking Africa instead of North America. You're clueless and should go back into your corner and resume palying with your Lincoln Logs.

I was thinking that Play-Doh is more his speed ... Linconln Logs are a few steps higher up the mental ladder than he is ...

You may be right, but I figure being an engineer, he could at least stack logs.

Nothing beats a first hand accounting from the man himself:



Said victim was a moose, which I think rates big game. I doubt you could ask more of a bullet than to bust both shoulders and exit.

Then there are the inconsistent performances of the TSX

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...owflat/Number/1450935/page/1#Post1450935

Lee ... so now your 'argument' is about Barnes bullets in general? When are you going to stop shifting gears everytime someone proves you wrong?

but let me humor you one more time, JFSAG ... EVERY type of bullet by every different manufacturer is prone to failure at some rate. Same for scopes ... same for the rifle proper ... same for anything made by us humans ...

the fact that there is a thread about some failures of Barnes bullets means nothing as per said bullet's adequacy ... it simply means that some of the failures are being highlighted by us ...

I can't know if we have threads here on every single bullet type, but I do know it's been discussed ad nauseum here, regarding failures with just about every common hunting bullet design, from simple cup&core bullets to 'interlocked' bullets to bonded bullets to partitions to monolithic bullets ...

It's about time you man up and admit that we have met your request for proof that the 120g TSX + 7mm-08 chambering is more than up to the task of taking big game ... and that it's a simple matter of personal preference as to whether or not you want to use something different or heavier ...

I made no argument. I only asserted that the 154-gr family of bullets gave the best all around compromise for the 7mm-08 and 7x57, round nose to SST. 140 grains is the natural all around weight of for the 7mm-08, just as 150 is for the .308.

The TSX worshippers don't argue, either. They just make claims, based on ad copy, shooting a little paper, and maybe some small game. Then they just know that their little bullet of the week will kill an size game instantly. Last year they needed a 180 gr TSX to kill small deer. This year, a 120-gr TSX will kill moose and elk reliably, not that they have tried it.

What experience do you speak of?You have not posted a single example of a big game animal that you personally killed with any bullet.



How would you know that if you have never even killed a big game animal with a 7mm bullet?



On this very thread,people have posted specific kills on moose,bears and hogs with the 120gr tsx.Do you consider moose and bears small game?

You are nothing more than a keyboard hunter that gives opinions yet has demonstrated no basis at all for those opinions.

I consider, a few moose, bear, and feral hogs killed with the 120-gr TSX to demonstrate what we already know - that light bullets can kill big game. So could a .223. Both are stunts, the 120-gr TSX just less of a stunt than using a .223. This minimal evidence says nothing about the thread topic question for THE BEST ALL-AROUND BIG GAME BULLET. A few incidents of big game are nothing compared to the millions of head taken by 140, 150 and 160 grain bullets from the 7x57, the 7m-08's ballistic twin.

so basically, Lee ... what you're saying is that NO amount of evidence posted by "us" would make a case in our favor (in your mind) because it's too small a sample? And that we'd need years of people all over the world taking big game with this combo, before you'd consider it legit?

If that's the case, turn it around .... consider that there hasn't been enough time, or testing, to prove that this combo (7mm-08 + 120g TSX) is NOT very effective in taking 'big game' ...


so basically, you need to shut the hell up with all your double talk and feeble arguments ... quit shifting the your angle to avoid answering our questions ....

and for the love of God, if you have actually ever killed ANY animal with a rifle (or any firearm), and happen to have a picture of it ... PLEASE POST IT !!! Either that, or acknowledge that you haven't, so we can put that issue to bed forever ...

Lee,

What you don't get (but damn near everyone else here, who has actually killed a few head of game, do) is that killing stuff isn't all that hard.

20 grains of difference in a big game chambering only makes a difference on game in theory and on paper.

You really should do yourself a big favor, and actually put down the ballistics tables and gun magazines, and get outside to actually do something for yourself.

Like I said before, killing stuff is only difficult in the minds of people who have not done it. Similarly, 20gr difference in bullet weight only matters in the minds of people who have never tried it in real life.

That the obvious escapes you, is only testament to your inexperience and inability to see past the end of your nose.

Anyone who has ever used and reloaded with the 120 tsx will plainly see that it is the same size lengthwise as a 140 cup and core bullet. The cup and core bullet will lose at least 1/3 of it's mass on it's trip through the animal. The tsx, however, normally loses very little, so outweighs the cup core bullet on exit. Is why it normally is not to be found. Still has mass, and becasue it starts at a higher velocity to begin with, normally exits. Analize that all ya want. Facts is facts.

Until you kill something with your 7-08, your place is to sit at the feet of those that have with your mouth shut, eyes and mind open, and possibly learn something.........

Oh, the 120-gr LOOKS THE SAME as a 140-gr bullet to the naked, untrained eye. So they must be the same, shoot the same, and have the same effect. It is so obvious.

CAS, is sounds like you need to compare the exterior ballistics of the 120-gr TSX to other bullets. Then compare the terminal ballistics against the millions head of big game taken with those other bullets. The underweight TSX is new and unproven. That's the fact, Jack. Maybe in 5 years we'll have enough evidence to evaluste it. I'll stick with what I KNOW works, and is 100% ethical.

If I want to use a .257 Roberts class load on a moose, I'll use my .257 Roberts, not a downloaded 7mm as a stunt. If a 7mm-08 is all you have, that's fine - just use a proven load.

holy cow ... I mean, some people are idiots, but are fun to read because, well ... it's just funny ...

but you, sir .... you take the cake ... I mean, I might actually have to make you the first and only person I ever put on ignore, simply because when I read the junk you post, it makes me feel like my brain is going to explode, due to lack of any sense your posts make ...

my 3.5 year old son is light years ahead of you with respect to the ability to understand fact, and read sign ... even HE knows that killing schitt ain't the hard part about this game ... and that the 120g TSX + 7mm-08 is "proven" for big game ...

Actually, I can leave the ballistics tables on the load bench. See, Lee, I have actually SHOT darn near every available 7mm bullet out to way past 500 yards. I know damn well what they will do at those ranges, and the 120gr TSX hangs nicely. Add in the fact that it recoils less, and you can generally spot your own shots even with a light rifle, and the benefits continue to roll.

The difference between us, Lee, is that you sit there in the corner with your horned rimmed glasses and pointy hat, reading through stacks of ballistics charts while I am out actually shooting and killing stuff.

It is very much like talking with my Econ professor Uncle. He has never held a real job outside of teaching or government, yet he is the foremost expert on how to run a business. The funny thing is that he lacks the basic real world knowledge to even scratch his own ass. You are cut from the same cloth.

Your stance now is no different than when you were lamenting whether a 375 H&H bullet would kill a deer, since it was designed for game much larger. Remember, you were wrestling with whether the bullet would open up or not, while completely oblivious to the fact that it doesn't matter if a 375 bullet opens, it will still kill a deer like the Hammer of Thor.



Actually, I have one or two other rifles in other chamberings. I also DO use a proven load, the 120gr TSX!

Seriously, man, get off your ass and actually go shoot a little bit and kill something. It will open your eyes a little bit.

Somewhere in America, a village is missing it's idiot.

It's time to go home Lee.

If you fantacizers could discuss ballistics from actual experience, you would, instead of acting so insecure over questions to your faith.

Begin by discussing the range at which you expect to shoot a moose or elk, and try to explain what advantage a 120-gr bullet gives you. Then compare it to a normal weight bullet at that range, and try to explain how it won't do as good a job, given the millions of moose and elk already killed by them at 7x57 / 7mm-08 velocities.

My actual experience tells me that ballistics mean squat, or less, at hunting ranges. That something so obvious escapes you is indicative of your lack of real field experience.

What my experience tell me is that at 500 yards and less, I want a bullet that will stay together and penetrate. Traditional cup and core bullets, regardless of weight don't do that for me, but bullets like the X do.

You can hypothesize all you want, but in the real world it matters not if the 120gr X digs 2' or 3' into the hill beyond the animal after busting it's shoulders and scrambling it's heart

There is no insecurity here. I have shown dozens of photos of stuff that I have actually killed with said bullets. You, on the other hand.................

If you don't care about real ballistics, then stop talking about ballistics that you cannot cite.

You are the one hypothesizing, or rather, fantasizing, about bullets whose ballistics are unknown to you. That's why you get touchy about your bullet choice that you cannot explain. The rest of us explained why we prefer 140s or 154s or 160s. You start insulting everyone who has a different opinion than yours, because you lack confidence in your opinion.

[quote=Lee24] Maybe in 5 years we'll have enough evidence to evaluste it.[quote]

CAS and others, You idiots!!! Don't you know it takes 5 years to evaluste it ???? Jeees... Have you never evalusted anything in your miserable lives......OMG...

If I didn't make typo errors, you wouldn't have anything but "yo Mama" for an "argument".

Lee.....you are such a tool

+1...this is ridiculous.....and not even worth responding to anymore....the guy is just mind-blowingly out-there......

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=7628
Right about in the middle of this page there is a spot to click on ignore this user. Doing so will turn off all the gibberish posted by Lee24. TROLL

You mean the "real" ballistics that you read about in the back of reloading manuals, or the REAL ballistics that I chart when actually shooting said bullets?

You only know what the ballistics tables say, which is normally not quite what happens in real life (if you had actually shot anything, you would know that). I can easily look at the ballistics tables, or I can look at my notes (which are based on what really happened).

Are you seeing a pattern here. Just like with the bullet selection, I can look at my nites, based on real world experience. You can only look at ballistic gelatin test results and ad copy.

For the third time, the reason I chose the 120gr TSX over every other available big game bullet is because it flys flatter at hunting ranges, recoils less, hits game at a higher velocity (which does make a difference), and still penetrates deeper than traditional cup and core bullets of heavier weight. Had you ever tried one, you just might see those things for yourself.

I had tried hard not to insult you up until now, but you, madam, are about the most myopic, bullheaded, ignorant poster I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

Like everyone else has asked, either show something that you have actually done, or just STFU and go away you arrogant, self rightous prick.

Geez this thread is the energizer bunny of threads.

A very wise old Masterchief once told me "Never get into an arguement when you KNOW you're right. If you do, you become an idiot just like the other guy." There were a few F-bombs in there too but I took them out. It is obvious that Lee24 is wrong so quit arguing.

RH

If you can't make a logical argument for why you think the 120-gr bullet is superior to all others, including heavier ones of the same construction, just go to the insult thread set up by others with the same disability.

dude ... what part of our justifications do you not understand? You asked us to make a case ... we did, in spades ... we've shown multiple pics and made even more references to 'big game' we've taken with a 120g TSX from a 7mm-08. We've told you that we prefer the 120 because it flies flatter, goes faster, hits very hard, is able to drill completely thru both shoulders and then exit ... it's failure rate is no more than any other bullet out there (which makes the failure rate a moot point) ... and to top it off, the TSX tends to retain 95% plus of it's starting weight, and usually only loses any real weight if a petal shears off ...


The advent of the TSX has changed the game for so many people, only because it (along with a slew of other great bullets we have these days) has 'legitimized' many, many chamberings that used to be "not ok" for big game.

Get just about any caliber/weight TSX moving at somewhere between 2700-3000 fps muzzle velocity, and hit something (big game) at a range between 50-500 yards (which I consider to be typical hunting ranges) and it's going to do the job as well or better than anything out there.


Now, if that's not enough justification, evidence, and testimony for us all to make our point, then I seriously doubt that you will ever be convinced, even after years and years of people doing it, piling up dead animals with said combination of bullet and chambering.

If you simply want to argue for the sake of argument, then just say so ... there are a lot of us here the would probably entertain the idea. But if you really want to know the answer to your questions in this thread, just read what we've written ... it's all there in black and white.


Of course, we are still waiting on you to produce your pictures and evidence and testimony that justifies why the 120g choice is inferior. You have yet to produce a single shred in that regard, and it would surprise us none to find out that you can't.


I really can't believe I'm actually addressing you seriously and politely. I shouldn't be engaging you in this conversation any longer, as it seems to be a colossal waste of my time. Yet I still feel like, in the back of my mind, that you MIGHT really want an answer, and so I continue to try to explain it to you.

But after this post, I don't think I can say anything else that could possibly make it any more clear... so if you still don't get it, you're just going to have to deal with it, as am I ...

WGM,
That about sums it up......

Well, I have only had my 7-08 for about 2 years, so I only have about 3 deer and a couple of hogs to its credit so far. I took one deer with a factory 140 gr. Partition and then everything else with 145 gr. Speer Hot-cor handloads, at 2700 fps. This load has been working so well, I have not tried anything else. I do have some loads using the 139 gr. Hornady to shoot to see how they group. I have been very happy with the Speer load, and have not tried any of the TSX loads in the 7-08 yet.

For those of you who prefer random hunting experiences, here is another TSX that didn't work well on a black bear. It was a 130 grains, 10 more than that 120-grainer that some folks BELIEVE is "the best all-around 7mm big game bullet".

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...lat/Number/1478926/page/1/gonew/1#UNREAD

Lee,
You're a joker....probably the best internet troll I've ever read. Not sure if you beleive the crap you post or just like to think up ways to sound way off-base....

Can you tell me how many times a bullet has to be successful in your eyes to be worthwhile using? How many kills vs failures does a bullet need before YOU deem it 'ethical'? You're nuts man....I wish I knew what world you were living in and the way YOU decide whats right and wrong for others....

Lee ...

Not that it matters, but if you actually read thru the thread you last referenced regarding the .277" 130g TSX failure, you'd realize that something went more wrong than just a bullet that failed. It either hit some brush/branch(es) on the way to the target, or something similar. It was also a gut shot, making it almost irrelevant seeing that it essentially would not have hit anything 'vital'.

Once again, your 'argument' falls well short of being legitimate or meaningful for this debate we've been having ...

But I do have to hand it to you ... you don't give up easily, do you ... right or wrong, you don't give up ...

Straw grasper!!!!!

You really must have zero experience of your own to be posting that to back up your nonsense!!!!!!

So tell us how your 120-gr TSX bullet at the same velocity as that 130-gr TSX bullet, 3,000 fps, would have done a better job on that bear or any other big game?

I didn't say the 130-gr bullet failed. You did.

It does demonstrate a TSX that did not properly expand and did not retain any more weight than many traditional bullets.

Wounded and lost game doesn't care about excuses that a twig blew up your bone-crushing TSX bullet, or any other speculative reasons you can cook up.

Hey Mr. Rodgers, are you really this big of Tool or is it just an act? Do you have a picture of something you killed with the 154 gr. Hornady? Sure would love to see it, but guess that isn't going to happen because I'm not a scientific peer.....grin

Your reading comprehension sucks, so I'll go over it again. I am a 7-08 user, (meaning I have killed game with it), who wants more data from other people using (meaning killing game with) a 7-08. I don't have enough experience with it to advise others, even though I have owned a 7-08 longer than you have, and killed game with it. You are blocking my view of the real players by standing up in the front row hollering at them not to use the TSX, which you haven't used yourself. You are sitting on a dock in Spain watching Columbus sail away and predicting a failed mission.

Your input has been nothing but negative, but it recently resulted in a positive as it brought out more guys with actual experience killing game posting useful info. The info they provide is helpful to me, but your theories as a non-user of the 7-08 and tsx are just more static on the screen. Down in front, please!

Why do you expect anyone to just fall silent when rude and insecure bullies try to insult everyone out of the thread? Sorry, but I just asked for logic and evidence, not ad copy from Barnes or group sizes on paper. If you don't want me to stand up to you "in the front row", don't address me directly.

Back on topic ... or close to it ... or something.

Like I may have posted earlier ... am going to take my 18" barreled FN Venezuelan sporter 7x57 Moose hunting on a "once in a lifetime" bull only hunt in October in Minnesota's Unit 33 (between two chunks of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area).

NO it is NOT a 7mm08. But same thing, longer action, cooler cartridge. Besides, it is the best shooting rifle I've ever handled. (Something about a short mil contour barrel I'd imagine).

Am simultaneously working up loads for 120 TSX and 140 TSX (Even though I *know* that its favored 139 Hornady SP will do horrible things to the vitals of any Cervidae type critter on earth).

Either bullet can be loaded to 3.15 and leave 2/3rds plus of caliber length in the neck while getting within .03 of the lands in my deep throat milsurp chamber.

Area I am hunting has considerable clear cut opportunties and I am planning on shooting at ranges between 10 and 300 yards.

Assuming maximum safe pressures of 65K (yes way beyond SAMMI, but I have considerable faith in a Belgian made M98 action and modern brass at loads up to Hoyle approved 270 pressures) QL says I can approach 3000 FPS with the 120 TSX and 2800 with the 140 TSX, even given my barrel constraints.

OK, Running Barnes Ballistics on the theoretical loads with the updated BC's of .349 on 120 TSX and .394 on 140 TSX I get

120 TSX

Muzzle - 3000 Velocity - 2398 Energy
100 - 2723 Velocity - 1975 Energy
200 - 2463 Velocity - 1616 Energy
300 - 2218 Velocity - 1311 Energy

140 TSX

Muzzle - 2800 Velocity - 2437 Energy
100 - 2564 Velocity - 2044 Energy
200 - 2342 Velocity - 1704 Energy
300 - 2131 Velocity - 1412 Energy

Now I am of the camp that believes in Placement, Expansion, Penetration, Energy ... in order as for killing ability.

I am thinking that either bullet will expand nicely at these velocities and penetrate all I need at any angle that I will be shooting at. That means I'd take a quartering shot on a shoulder facing me but pass on a Texas Heart Shot unless EXTREME circumstances presented themselves.

Bottom line is I'm gonna shoot whichever boolit the Shillelagh likes best and plan on packing out a moose whenever it realizes it's been hit and falls down.

FWIW ... my "back up" gun will be a 6.5x55 Win FWT pushing 130 TSX's at 2925. That'll kill just a well I'm a thinking but the Shillelagh is cooler, shorter, and handles better in the woods.

Good, logical post.

Good luck G.E., I look forward to hearing about your results and learning something from them.

GE,

You THS that moose and we are leaving you to clean it by yerself, (not really but made me feel good saying it)

BD

Bubba Bubba Bubba ...

The only moose that'd get THS'd would be a refugee from your Jim Shockey porn collection that was thinking of getting in the sights of a "metro wonder".

ESPECIALLY *our* "metro wonders"

*grin*

I ran the 120-gr TSX at 3,000 fps through several ballistics calculators, including my my own. They all all said the same thing:

The little TSX only shoots about 10% flatter than the 154-gr boattails, but the 154 gr bullet delivers 40% more energy at 400 yards, 70% more energy at 500 yards.

At 300 yards, the 120-gr TSX gives up 30% energy advantage to the 154, for only a few inches less drop. At 200 or less, the trajectory difference is nothing appreciable.

So what velocity did you use for the 154gr bullet?

Lee ... the real crux of the matter is, does the 120g TSX deliver sufficient energy at 4-500 yards? Once you reach the point of "sufficient energy" for any given bullet, it doesn't really matter that a different bullet delivers more energy ...

dead is dead ... you can't get deader than that ...

once you figure that out, you'll be at least one foot down the road to understanding us, and the 120gTSX + 7mm-08 combo ...

Apparently the point is that some people believe that if they think 700 ft-lbs of energy is sufficient to kill a deer or elk, then that makes it so.

What do you think is "sufficient energy", and based on that, the maximum ethical range of the 120-gr TSX for deer, hog, bear, elk, moose, mountain goat and sheep?

For my calcs, I used 2,700 fps for the 154-gr bullets and 3,000 for the 120-gr bullets. I used the optimum sight setting for the TSX and maintained that sight setting for the other bullets.
Severl 150 and 154-gr bullets still shot flatter inside 250 yards than the TSX, and only dropped about 4 or 5 inches less at 500 yards.

When I adjusted the sight setting to optimum for the 154-gr SST, it shot flatter all the way than the SST all the way.

You're too dumb to see you're own problem - Actual shooting of critters will give you a thousand times the real world info that running ballistic calculators on the internet will.

IOW, you don't like the way the TSX falls short of the heavier bullets in trajectory and energy. That's reality.

I practice a lot on paper, and then kill game.
Others still practice while hunting.
That difference seems to be another cause of animosity here.

Ballistic calculators are just one tool.
You have to actually shoot your rifle at different ranges with different loads to get to the point that you don't need to use a rangefinder and notes - just point and shoot.

Only then are you capable of understanding actual performance of bullets in the field. Most people who are surprised just didn't do their homework. They want a quick answer - this or that wonder bullet in lieu of practice, 10 shots at the range, and go hunting.

You've proven to most everyone's satisfaction that you've never killed a critter, now I'm starting to have doubts you've ever fired anything larger than a pellet gun.

Does that trash talking really help you forget that you couldn't address the superior ballistics of the 154-gr nullets, and the fact that YOU haven't used the 120-gr TSX on big game?

Guys:

I guess it's time for to step in.

Rule #1: DFTFT. You all know that.

Rule #2:

So I'm leaving for Florida next Friday, and I'm wondering what the water temperature is like right now. Usually I hit the largemouth with green swimbaits in the in-laws' lake, but if the water's too cold, sometimes I gotta drag a 7" worm across the bottom.

How's it looking?

It's been getting really hot down here lately ... but still decent to good fishing weather ...

I should be heading out into the gulf in a few weeks ... salt water fishing about 30-40 miles out around the rigs, for redfish and speckled trout ... will be using minnows and croakers ...

I would ask you to wish me luck, but I shouldn't need it ... (grin)

Storm Barry cooled things off but fishing came back last Thursday. Caught bluefish in the surf.

Fish the deepest part of the lake, lengthwise over the old creek channel, right now.
Berkeley motor oil worm on a small Carolina rig, to the bottom, back up, slow crank across the top of the weed bed.

Also used grasshopper and nuclear lime jello jigs on 1/16 oz head and Roadrunner head, steady retrieve over the top of weed bed.

Caught 20 bass on the May 30 full moon in 90 minutes, 1.5 to 4 lbs, 10 of them over 3 lbs.

Good luck anyway.

Was in Fort Myers the week before last on a tarpon-fishing trip, and literally had hundreds of tarpon rolling around the boat every day.

But they weren't hitting.

Three days of this, we tried artificials, on the bottom, mid water, sail cats, mullet heads, angel fish, greenies, on and on.

No hookups.

I'll take a little luck ANY old day.

Next time try some crabs with the shell knocked off, or artificials like the Effusion or Berkeley Gulp crabs.

When they don't want to bite, you can't make them.

I see some folks believed that lie "castandblast" posted about my having said I had not shot any game with my 7mm-08, and were too lazy to go look at the thread to see what I did say. Some of you will always be sore at any of us who post real evidence of TSX bullets not working miracles, or dare to ask TSX lovers how they came to their opinions, when they haven't actually used the bullets on the animals for which they are recommending them.

I said up front that I had only used the 120-gr BT and 139/140-gr bullets on deer from my 7mm-08s, but was so impressed with the ballistics of the 154s and their track record of killing large game, that I think they are probably the best all-around bullet for game larger than deer, and I plan to several this fall to find out. If they don't work well for me, at least I am honest enough to tell you.

That's all the attention I am going to give your punking up this thread.

I don't believe that you have taken any type if game with any type of bullet, cartridges combination..You are just a troll with no experience or credible knowledge..........

I see you are out trolling again, try some fresh bait

Proof, is always the great equalizer.

So far, there ain't any backing up Lee24.

And, even by his own admissions, he's never used the TSXs.

So, at worst, he's a troll, a fake, and a fraud.

At best, he's speaking without any experience at all about that which he's offering advice.... not like that hasn't been seen before 'round here......

No, I haven't used any TSXs on game.
I posted about the 154-gr bullets, remember?

It was the TSX posters who got their panties in a wad when asked WHY they liked they BELIEVED the 120-gr was better than the 140-gr.

With all that smoke and noise you guys make, most people didn't notice if you actually shot any big game (not deer or little feral pigs) with a 120-gr TSX out of a 7mm-08, and the results.

Maybe that is their idea.

Lee ... none of us said the 120g TSX kills better, or "IS" better, ... only that we prefer it, and that it does the job very well... but I'm not going down that road again ...

the curious thing though, is that you've been asked, numerous times, to post a picture of you with an animal you've killed ... any animal, any choice of rifle/pistol, chambering, and bullet ... that's all we've asked of you ... show us ONE picture of you with a dead animal, so we can at least confirm that you have indeed killed something with a firearm ...

I know you responded to my questions on another thread ... and stated that you don't have a camera, and most of your footage is on motion video ... but I don't know a single hunter on this planet that is totally devoid of a still frame picture of them with an animal they've killed ...

So please, do yourself and all of us a favor, and post a picture ... or simply admit that you've never killed an animal... it's really that simple ...

ps. if it makes you feel any better ... here's a picture of me and a dink whitetail buck ... I'm on the left in the picture with the silly forky horn ... nothing even close to a trophy. See, it doesn't have to be an impressive kill ... it just has to be a kill ...

I don't think it looks silly,I'd say it looks tasty!

he was ... veddy veddy tasty indeed ...

The curious thing is how you now claim that, "none of us said the 120-gr TSX was better..". You need to reread these threads, look at the pictures posted by those who claim them as "proof" that the 120-gr TSX is the best big game bullet, and especially reread your own posts so you can get your story straight.

If you want to back off the 120 TSX and recommend another bullet to the original poster, it's fine to change your mind. You don't have to pretend it was always what you BELIEVED.

If after reading about actual experiences with the 120gr tsx, and seeing actual big game that was taken with the 120 gr tsx you come to your senses,you can change your mind and admit that the 120gr tsx is a good big game bullet.

Certainly, when there are more than a handful of uses of the 120-gr TSX on big game, so we get to see more than a few reported shots and get a sample size large enough to calculate a the percentage of subpar performance, we will be able to make a reasonable evaluation.

At this point, no one can describe any reason to use the 120-gr TSX. There are 140 and 154 grain bullets that shoot as flat and hit a lot harder, especially at long range.

I can't imagine myself using a 120 TSX when the 140s shoot just as flat. The 140 TSX would be more likely to perform as well as a conventional 154 or 160 grain bullet, so that is where I would spend my time and money experimenting.

Lee ... I put the word "best" in quotation marks because 'best' can have many meanings, when the exact criteria has not been defined. To some, the fact that it recoils less, flies a smidge flatter, and hits very hard makes it the "best" choice for THEM ...

If you want to talk solely about downrange energy, one could easily argue that a heavier bullet is "best" ... or at least, better than the 120g TSX.

What you have heard us all saying, is that WE believe that the 120g TSX is the 'best overall choice' because of all the factors we considered, and how heavily we weigh each factor.

You obviously weigh these factors differently, and thus feel that the 120g TSX is not the best choice... and you know what? That's not only acceptable, that's great... for you! None of us ever told you or anyone else that they would be making a mistake by using something other than the 120g TSX... we just highly recommend it, and use it ourselves ... very successfully I might add ...

Now, to a different matter ... we are all still waiting for you to post a picture of you with a game animal you've shot and killed ... with any make/model/design of firearm, using any chambering, bullet selection, etc...

What factors would those be the 120-gr TSX has?

The 154-gr BTSP and SST shoot flatter and deliver a lot more energy that the 120-gr TSX. So do many 140-gr bullets.

Accuracy, flat trajectory, and energy to target are most important factors to me in the taking of any game.

I guess lower recoil and higher cost per shot must be more important factors to other people.

So just a few posts back, the 154gr bullets shot "almost as flat" as the 120gr bullets, now they shoot "flatter"?

Tell me, how does bullet weight affect accuracy?

Further, tell me how energy kills an animal? How does that energy DIRECTLY relate to the killing power of a round? How do you explain that a 22-250 is totally unsuitable for deer (by your definition
) and yet a 45-70, with about the same energy, is fine?

By your definition, the 22-250 (which shoots much flatter, has a reputation for much better accuracy, and delivers the same energy as the 45-70) should be the vastly superior big game cartridge.

See the problem with only reading books and not actually doing anything in real life yet, Lee?

HE DOESNT GET IT........

You have yet to give one actual experience using a 154gr bullet on big game.Therefore using your own skewed logic,the 154gr bullet is even less proven as a big game bullet than the 120gr tsx.

A 22-250 expends most of its energy in disintegration and heat.
A .45-70 expends most of its energy in moving the animal and drilling a long, narrow wound channel.

I am going to spend $30.00 to load up a box of 120-gr TSX and shoot them against a 140 and a 154-gr bullet out to 500 or 600 yards to check the actual trajectories of each. Since the 154 has 70% more energy at 500 yards, and I expect it to retain most of its weight at its relatively low arrival speed (1,900 fps vs 1,700 for the 120-gr), I right now presume it to be vastly superior to the slower, lighter TSX at long range.

Over the course of the summer, I will shoot both bullets into wound ballistic media at 100, 200, ...500 yards, to see how the bullets deform and retain mass, and measure the wound geometry and and volume. Then I will report it here, post pictures, and shoot game with both.

I expect that is 100x more than any of the TSX fans will do.

Yeah, you're right. We will just keep killing animals with TSX's. Oh, the blasphemy!

Vote for Pedro.................

"Keep killing"?
So far, the TSXs have barely started, compared to proven 7mm bullets for the last 100 years.

If you don't practice, experiment, and understand how bullets and ballistics work, you can have a good time, but you are depending on luck rather than expertise and skill, and that will someday bite you in the outdoors. Those of you who depend on trusting brands and your luck should at least be polite to those who put more effort into skill building.

My mother enjoys driving her car without knowing how it works, but at least she knows she is not a mechanic or race car driver.

You can also beat a dead horse to death........

Pray tell, who makes a 154-gr BTSP??

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez, why do y'll keep throwing meat into troll's cage??

Sorry, Bobcat, it just slipped out....I had refrained until now. Does that earn me any points?

This thread is almost as entertaining as the Eurofreaks Optics forum.

Actually I am suspicious that Lee24 may actually be E posting under a different name.

you mean ... leE24?

Wow! How did we ever move from the "proven" longbow to the questionable at best effectiveness of the firearm?

John

How did we get from the throwing of rocks and sharp sticks................

How? The more intelligent members of society watched while the non-thinkers tried dumb things, most of which failed. The thinkers figured out why the experiments left the dumb hunter hungry or dead, and they developed better weapons.

Kind of like the guys shooting the 120 TSX in the 7-08 and stacking up a lot of game by the looks of the evidence.............

And you enjoy talking about ballistics and hunting bullets,but unfortunately you haven't realized that you aren't a ballistics expert or a professional hunter.In fact you haven't posted a single picture showing you with even one big game animal that you have personally killed.

If the dead animals in the posted photos were not killed with the ammuntion which is the thread topic, they are irrelevant.

If the hunter has demonstrated no understanding of ballistics and bullets, and disdain for practice and hunting skills, then he probably killed the animal mostly by luck. Better to be lucky than good, though.

At this point I'd settle for a picture of Lee24 with a firearm as I am not sure that he even owns one.........

1

And if you haven't even used a tsx,anything you post about them is irrelevant.Further more if you haven't even killed a big game animal,then anything you say about big game hunting is irrelevant.

Not too jump in here,but werent there a whole bunch of pictures posted by someone shooting a Remmy TI 7-08? I remember seeing a brown bear and a deer and others.I can see that you may not like the TSX,that is your opinion and you are entitled too it,but dont knock anyone else for their choice.Do you not agree with the bullet weight? I have always heard that the TSX performs as well as a bullet 20-30 grains heavier,therefore a 120gr would perform like a 140 or 150gr.I have this caliber and that is what I plan on loading for it.I will be taking to Alaska this fall for a Mountain Goat/Black Bear hunt.I see nothing wrong with this at all.While I lived there I saw caribou get shot with .223's,bears shot with .243's and 25WSSM's shooting either the 100gr or 115gr factory loads.Are you calling these people wrong or lucky or un-ethical as well?

It looks to me that you have your mind made up of what is right and what is wrong according to what you read in some book or what somebody told you once.You are afraid to admit that anyone COULD be right and you change the subject or revert the question around so you dont answer it.As my old man used to say...."Either piss or get off the pot". You have no first hand experince with this set-up as do I,but I am always looking for a better way of doing things.That is why I will be loading up some 120gr TSX's in my 7-08 and shooting them until the cows come home.

Man! The first guy to kill an Elk with a 154gr Hornady must have been taking a real chance! I mean they had absolutely no track record much less a proven one. A big thumbs up to that guy!

John

Actually, the first guy to kill an elk with a 120-gr TSX (if anyone actually has, or does), is taking a bigger chance, because the 120-gr bullet has so much less energy at long range. And the closer the shot, the more pointless it is to use a high-speed bullet, hoping to get flat trajectory in a trade off for killing momentum.

The 7x57 had been killing game with 150 and 154-gr bullets for 50 years before Hornady sold their first one.

Someone still had to be the first to use it on big game.What a fool that first person must have been to try something so risky as to use an unproven load.

Columbus was sure a fool wasn't he....grins

Dober

Please explain how this so called lack of energy relates to the inflicting of lethal wound??...

A glance at Nosler's tables shows that a 120gr BT @3000fps has virtually the same energy at 500yds as a 150gr Partition started at 2700fps.

The "lack of energy" is likely a product of assigning a low BC to the 120TSX and plugging it into a "custom" ballistic formula to support an untested theory....

Exactly what I was going to ask...

Sounds like a Field and Stream reader, no?

200FPS slower and 34 grs. lighter is equivalent to 70% less energy, don't ya know!

castandblast -
I posted the velocities I used for the bullets.
I used the factory BCs.
All the calculators show the 120-gr TSX shooting no flatter than the best 140s and the 154-gr bullets. By my standards, only small deer and pronghorns are ethical shots beyond 300 yards, due to the low energy and momentum of all the 7mm-08 bullets.

Be assured that the German engineers calculated and tried the 150 and 154 grain bullets on targets 100 years ago when they were trying to find good ones for big game. Likewise, Columbus calculated a lot before he sailed west to the New World, unlike the hundreds who winged it and didn't come back.

All right Lee24, I think you may just be a troll, but I'll go for the bait. Using Norma Ballistics Java Page:
120 gr TSX, BC=0.369, MV=3000 fps, ME=2396 ft-lbs, 500yd V=1831 fps, 500yd E=893 ft-lbs, drop with 200 yd zero=-43.9 inches.
150 gr NP, BC=0.456, MV=2700 fps, ME=2428 ft-lbs, 500yd V=1795 fps, 500yd E=1074 ft-lbs, drop with 200 yd zero=-50.0 inches.
Conclusions: 1. The 120 TSX is flatter shooting over the entire distance. 2. The Partition with its higher BC obviously retains more energy at 500 yds - 20% more, NOT 70% more (the NP had a 1.3% energy advantage at the muzzle in this comparo). This energy delta builds as the flight distance increases due to the BC advantage. 3. The 120 TSX travels 41 more yards before its velocity drops below 2000 fps (416 vs 375). 4. If you use 1000 ft-lbs of energy as a "minimum desired" for deer sized game, the 120 makes it to 447 yards, the 150 out to 542 yards before this energy threshold is reached. Both well beyond the capabilities of most hunters (myself included). These results come from a site that can be accessed and verified by anyone. Bottom line, if a guy wants a little flatter shooting load to take the guess work out of those longer shot opportunities, the 120 TSX has a small but measurable advantage. If retained energy for the longer shots is of greater importance, then the 150 Partition would probably be the choice. Both are of suitable construction to use on elk sized game, and either should fit the bill quite well.

It's OK to say "I was wrong, I made a mistake in my calculations". It's the first step to coping with your Cerebral Naricssism, (and getting along with others..... )

I am shooting the 154-gr SST for longer range, which has a much higher BC than the Nosler 150-gr. If you run the calcs, you will see that with the sights set to optimize for the 120-gr TSX, at 500 yards, the TSX drops -41.0 and the SST drops -45.8, a negligible difference.

If you set the sights for the 154-gr, it shoots even closer to the the trajectory of the TSX.

Try it. I will give you the sight settings for both.

good job skirting the issue of the retained energy ... either that, or you feel that there's no real difference between 20% and 70% ... ???

Well the SST is not suitable in most people's opinion as an elk bullet due to its construction. And why mess with the calcs when there is a site that does it all in an easy to use, graphical format, displaying trajectory, energy, etc., all the way from 0 to 600 yards? http://www.norma.cc/htm_files/javapagee.htm
If you want to compare apples to apples, then we must have equivalent initial energy. With that being the case, there is no question a higher BC bullet will retain more energy than a lower BC bullet. Why not compare a 154 gr Round Nose to a 120 TSX? Push them out with the same muzzle energy and see which has higher retained energy. According to you, those Germans had this all figured out years ago. I'll give you the answer: 120 TSX as shown in my post above 893 ft-lbs 43.9 inch drop, 154 RN has 608 ft-lbs of energy and a 70.9 inch drop! You can use (THE RIGHT) numbers to say anything you want to say. See, I just proved the 120 TSX is a better choice than this particular 154 gr bullet for downrange energy. There's plenty of room for all choices, and I do trust people who have actually used this bullet on game a lot more than any program or calculation. Your point is not missed by anyone on here, but there is an actual felt difference in recoil with a 120 vs 150-154 gr bullet, and the performance on game is excellent, by all accounts we've received, so far.

The 120 TSX is not "apples to apples" with anything else.

The 120-gr TSX at 500 yards is at the bare minimum speed (per Barnes) to open the bullet at all, so scratch that, and drop back its useful range on even a small deer or pronghorn to 400 yards. The Nosler BT might work to 500.

A 154-gr RN inside 200 yards has no measurable difference in trajectory from the boattail bullets, which means it is at most, 1 inch off the 120-gr TSX in that range.

This is no surprise. The .257 Roberts 117-gr RN, the 150-gr RN from the .308 Win, and the 180-gr RN from the .30-06 give up nothing to any other bullets inside 200 yards.

Since it is my opinion that you have to be inside of 200 yards with a 7mm-08 to have the energy necessary for big game, that is why I think the 154-gr bullets are a better choice. For deer or pronghorn at 300, a 120-gr might be better if deer is all you shoot, but you only have to switch bullet styles, not weights, to a BTSP or polymer tipped 154-gr bullet to make 300 yards an easier shot ( - 7.2 inches vs -4.5 for the 120-gr bullets).

Or you can leave the same sight setting that gives a zero of 210 with the 154-gr at 2,700 fps to a zero of 235 with the 120-gr BT or TSX at 3,000.

If you want to shoot mountain goats, elk or moose at 300 yards, you need a bigger rifle than the 7mm-08, IMHO. I never saw an animal I couldn't get within 100 yards of in any terrain, unless it was already spooked and moving.

If all you want to do it quote what anyone can determine from ballistic coefficients then you really aren't adding anything. I am making a point that there are 154 gr bullets out there that have less down range energy than the 120 TSX. If you want to use the ones that give you greater then the above comparison is as legitimate as yours. And I agree the trajectory out to 200 yards is not much different for just about ANY load, or bullet in the big game category from 243 to 300 cal. Beyond that distance, a small but measurable difference is noted, and as the distance increases, the difference is greater. Some like to have less to deal with for the rare (for most of us) long shot that may present itself. A bullet with a greater MV and a flatter trajectory gives one less to have to think about and decide upon when that rare occasion crops up. It's as simple as that.

Lee,

Have you actually fired a rifle or shot anything in the last few days, or are you still talking out of your ass?

Food for thought, you might want to actually try something in real life to PROVE your theories, sort of like you require us to prove that the 120gr TSX is a fantastic big game bullet. Until then you are just a blowhard windbag who really doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

heck, even after you do actually fire a rifle and kill something, you'll still be a blowhard windbag, but at least you will be ablowhard windbag who has fired a rifle.

His point is not totally without merit, there really is little trajectory difference between most modern big game firearms loaded for deer/elk out to 200 yards. However, to say a 7-08 is only good out to 200 yds for deer is just beyond stupidity, and cluelessness. No one with any real world experience with that round would believe that or say such a thing. I am not sure he's even old enough to buy a gun.

Lee24, Would you tell us how much energy is required inorder to inflict a lethal wound in an Elk?.........

My minimum for all true BIG GAME is 1500 ft-lbs from at least 150 grain bullet. This fall, I plan to hunt elk in the Cascades of Washington state, probably with a .444 or .348. Otherwise, my minimum would be a .30-06 with 180s or a 7mm Rem Mag with 175s.

A good friend from Montana killed his first elk with a .357 from a Marlin, one shot, both lungs and top of the heart, at 75 yards. He admits he wouldn't do it again.

Craig Boddington and others who have hunted a lot of elk are fans of 8mm Rem Mag and .338 Win Mag. I own neither. My .375 H&Hs are too heavy to tote all day in the hills, so unless I buy a lighter one like a Sako, I would fill the gap with a .325 WSM, which fits in a shorter rifle, and would be a perfect rifle for elk, big bears, and moose.

How's ole Pedro doing in the polls, anyhow?

Would you say that 900 enough to inflict a lenthal would?


This exit wound in the off side of a bull Elk's rib cage was created by a bullet with only 888 FPE.......






This is the same off side rib cage of the same bull Elk and it was made by a bullet with approximately 2700 FPE





I guess I am a little fuzz as to how FPE can accurately relate to the prediction of the Lethality of the wound that will be created...........

So you are still talking out of your ass................

Shocking (give or take)

This is mildly interesting:


So he has plans to hunt big game in the future....



....and he has a friend who has killed an elk......



...and he has read about what others use on elk.....



and, he is certain that a 325WSM "would be a perfect rifle for elk, big bears, and moose", even though he admittedly owns nothing comparable.

After two years and 3000+ posts, we know how to read Lee24's posts. We have to read what's not there. We can safely say that the glaring ommission in the post, (Lee's own personal experience on elk), will begin this fall in Washington. Good luck, Lee. Give us a full report, maybe even a picture if you think of it.

IOW, you haven't shot an elk with the relatively low-powered 120-gr TSX, and you don't personally know anyone who has. There aren't many.

The question was about "the best all around 7mm-08 bullet for big game".
Elk is just one of those big game animals. It is one of the few animals in North America I have not taken, because I work 300 days a year, live in the South, and travel internationally and mostly along the US coasts. So what? I have used the .30-06 extensively for 40 years, so that is my basis of comparison. I have used as large as the .375 H&H on water buffalo, and .270, 7x57, and .308 on goats, European boar, caribou, moose, and bear.

Although I did not draw a non-resident tag, I lhave worked in Colorado and Montana, so I have seen a lot of elk killed, and talked to a lot of guides about their preferences. The experts consider the .30-06 the minimum, and the 7mm-08 and .308 to be marginal but adequate for the perfect shots inside 200 yards.

If you want to disagree with Craig Boddington or any elk guides, go ahead and try to make a case for why elk, bears and mt goats re so easy to kill.

It's feeding time...grin...

No offense sir but you are the epitomy of the "Field and Stream" reader. You obviously have no problem taking other peoples word for things and rely on "statistics" to be your opinions that you will argue to the grave. Taking a magazine article or your buddy's buddy's friends words for it just doesn't work on this group of educated, FIELD EXPERIENCED folks...

You should know better than that if you arewho you say you are..

We've seen many, many of these Field and Stream readers make their arguments without ANY field experience with the tool they are spewing about and no matter how many years of shooting, building rifles, being around elk killed, reading Boddington etc. you have done, field experienced first-hand knowledge trumps it all....

Period....

Have a good day and it would be in your best interest sir to get away from this thread and just drop it....

Lets see a picture of one, any one them... you chose.

If Gmoney and DDP have killed and elk or moose with the 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08, they should post the pictures.

NONSENSE quote:
"However, to say a 7-08 is only good out to 200 yds for deer is just beyond stupidity, and cluelessness.."

ACTUALLY:
I said it is good to 400 yards for small deer, and 200 yards for big game.

REALITY:
I base that on my comfort level of 1500 ft-lbs energy with bullets 150 grains and heavier.
I did some quick research last night, and every elk guide, outfitter, and outdoor writer who has killed elk for over 20 years agreed with that - some said why, some didn't. None recommended the 7mm-08 for elk.

You have addressed this;




Y

Was that bullet a 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08 at 300 yards?.

I guess if you think someone posting a picture of a fish is grounds for taking their word that the rifle they haven't used will work for you, then why not use an elk killed by a .45-70 or something totally irrelevant?

I have been so good at behaving lately......but good grief man.

Do you yourself even believe the crap that you type.
"QUICK RESEARCH"....."EVERY Guide for over 20 years".

You have to be at least laughing when you type this crap.

This is reminding me of a little kid that says a small little white lie that gets called on it. Then he follows it with a little larger one to cover up. Then it continually grows to "QUICK RESEARCH.......EVERY Guide.....20 Years"

Everytime you type, you make me more confident that you have never harvested an animal. Is it 3 continents or 4? I think I have read both answers.
I have read how you were going to load up some 120's and go shoot gelatin and game and take pictures to show us the failure....but yet have never taken a picture of any harvest in 42 years or something like that.

This has honestly arrived at depressing.

You are in the wrong forum to try to BS about being sportsman.
Go to a knitting forum and tell them how you invented yarn.

Good Lord...

It is about YOU voicing your opinion on something that you've never experienced...

Like talking to a liberal...

You did some quick research on every guide/outfitter/writer who has killed elk for over 20 years and they didn't recommend a 7-08?

Do you realize how foolish you sound?

IOW, I could not find a single experience elk hunter in my library or on the internet that recommended the 7mm-08 for elk. I only spent about 30 minutes, Google and Yahoo couldn't find any guides or outfitters. I found some guides talking about the elk wounded by 7mm-08s an other sub-.30-06 rifles.

All of the writers - Boddington, O'Connor, Spomer, Fadala, etc - thought the 7mm-08 was okay if it was all you had, were an excellent shot, and only took a good, safe shot at less than 200 yards.

I don't plan to get any experience shooting game with marginal cartridges, when I have a room with 50 rifles, some of which will do the job without any doubts.

If you found any elk experts recommending the 7mm-08 for elk, post them, along with the picture of the elk you killed with it, or the fish you caught, or your big 4x4 truck...

Lee-I am curious but have you hunted elk, and if so have you taken elk and if so how many and with what rounds?

Thx

Mark D

My elk rifle is a .338WM Lee. It may be a 7-08 in the future based on the excellent field reports with the TSX.

I know many who have killed elk efficiently with a "relatively low-powered" broadhead and your energy fixation is moot. Heck, you aren't even consistent in your own energy guidelines, and you certainly are in no position to advise anyone else. You are too mixed up yourself. Here are just a few of the contradictory statements you've made in the last few pages:


Great. The 7-08 can deliver that at 300 yards. But then the contradictions start:











And....


but....


And...


vs


vs



And....


vs



Read John Haviland sometime.

This audience is boo-ing you off of the stage, but you just keep bumbling around up there, broadening the scope of your unfavorability. It's time for you to try this someplace else where it might have a chance of being well-received.

What is your point hoss?
I have read and heard stories about people wounding game including deer with 300 mags.
Just because it isn't the caliber that a particular person recommends doesn't mean it won't do the job.
Did your extensive research tell you where the bullet was placed on those wounded animals? Could it have possibly been a poorly placed shot rather than the caliber or bullets fault?



I don't think you plan on getting any experience shooting game period.

vs

Yes, and the 154s I loaded up and shot last year required no sight changes from my 120 Nostler Bt and various 140-gr bullets, and shot as predicted by ballistic calculators.

Add that to the tens of thousands of elk, moose and read deer killed with these bullets 150/154-gr bullets from the 7x57, and I know I am not experimenting with a deer load on big game. My first target of opportunity will probably be a large wild hog.

But I have a selection of stronger rifles I would prefer to use for various big game. I might choose a very similar cartridge just because the weather is bad or terrain is rough and my 7mm-08s are too nice to take out there.

How about posting a picture of "one of your 7mm-08s"... I'd settle for that at this point. I can't believe you even own a rifle, let alone shoot one... and it has become an accepted FACT here on the Campfire that you've never even set foot in the woods armed with anything more potent than your dim wit. PROVE US ALL WRONG. ~JT

and



vs







Try selling it somewhere else.

Lee:
A real person using a real 7-08 on real elk, lots of them......

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...k&topic=0&Search=true#Post682727

Spout your theories somewhere else.....

vs.

"The fact that someone owns $50,00 worth of guns, or has a PhD. in biology, or wears a large hat, or can consistently shoot possibles offhand at 200 yards does not necessarily make him worth listening to about the relative virutes of big-game rifles and cartridges."

Jack O'Connor, from chapter 1 ("Picking Your Expert") of The Hunting Rifle @ 1970 Winchester Press

Did I mention that someplace else might be better?

Castandblast,you an attorney cause you sure build a strong convincing case? Plenty of reference and fact, enough for someone to hang themselves with....

Now that is some "Quick Research".
I would have to assume that Lee24 has already read that though.

Cast, do you think that he has attempted to harvest game with no success to provide proof or just flat out has never hit the forest?
With all of the hounding he has taken, he is probably taking his hunter safety courses right now.....thinking that he will show us this fall with the 60 pound yearling whitey that he slaps with his 7mm-08 and 154gr.

I dought,he shows us anything........

You guys are real quick to dismiss the experience of Craig Boddington, John Barsness, Ron Spomer and all those elk outfitter web sites that say the 7mm-08 is a marginal elk rifle.

Apparenty the opinion of someone who posted a picture of fish is more valuable than shooting a moose, bear, boar, or mountain goat, unless it is with the 120-gr TSX. The 7x57 bears no relation to the 7mm-08, compared to someone fishing. LOL!!

Lee24,

I have used the 7mm-08,7x57,280rem and 270win to harvest a mountain of critters. I have taken hundreds of deer, scores of hogs and yes even some elk with these cartridges.

I admit that I have not used the 7mm-08 with a 120tsx on elk but I have taken a big pile of critters with the balistically identical 270win with the 130 grain X bullet. On another thread you said the 270 with a 130 grain bullet was good for deer and was not an all around hunting round.

I can assure you from my personal experience that 130 grain X bullets from a 270 will break both shoulders of bull elk and exit while driving them into the ground,

I don't care what anybody's website says, I have been there,done that, took the pictures, and know that you are a full of crap wannabe.

Britt

Lee24 (master of internet research),

I am not a expert of internet articles and research, but I searched Boddington and 7mm-08......the first link was an article that he did about the "Sensible Sevens".

In the section about the 7mm-08 he talks about a 150gr pill.....

"We found them against the hide on the far side of kudu, gemsbok and zebra,...."

He is actually praising them quite heavily saying that they don't get enough credit.

So where did you get the idea that no guide or outfitter would ever recommend the 7mm-08 on big game? Does the thing have to be recommended on cape buffalo before you will consider it big game.....because the three that he mentioned are probably as close to the North American Big game as you can get.

It took me 30 seconds of research and the first link to prove that you were absolutely full of it.



http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/notes/0501/

I never said, "..the .270 with 130-gr bullet is not a good all-around hunting round."

130-gr bullets are what make the .270 a super long deer and antelope rifle, and most of the bullets in that weight are deer bullets. The TBBC, A-Frame and new Scirocco are much tougher. There are some 140s that shoot very well in my .270 (I only have 1 at the moment), and it really shoots 150s well at 2,950 fps, and there are a lot of big game (not deer) bullets in 150 grains. I would have no problem using my .270 and a good 150-gr bullet on a lot of big game, but I would not choose to pack in for a trip over one of my .30-06s with the same model bullets in 180 grains.

In that G&A article, Boddington, he praises my choice of 7mm bullets, the 150/154-grainers.

In this one, he says the elk rifles start at .30-06 but he prefers 8mm or larger.

http://www.huntingmag.com/big_game/ideal_elk/

Lee,

The more you type, the more stupid you look.

Here's what JB really has to say about the 7-08 (and it's twin the 7x57) on their suitability for "big game":





and







In case you are having trouble, let me translate for you:

Lee, you are a bonafide, utterly useless retard who doesn't have a friggin' clue about which she speaks. Go ask your Mom if you need further explanation.

You truly are a tool of the lowest order..........

Lee24,

You said in plain english that a 308 with a 130tsx was a DEER round just like the 270 with a 130 grain bullet.

We were discussing the merits of the 130 tsx as an all around big game load and you clearly wrote it is " good for deer like a 270 with 130 grain bullets"

Please explain how my 270 with 130 X bullets are not ideal for elk. You are trying to change the subject because you won't admit that lots of us with actual experience can see that you have none.

Britt

I have an interest in seeing how the 130-gr TSX actually works from a .308, as I have 11 rifles in that caliber, but let's admit that any thing under 150 grains is light-for-caliber, and it might offer an alternative to the .270 in a short rifle.

But I have to SEE it work. I don't just buy into all the "trust Barnes" worship. So I'll try them myself. But they have to shoot in line with the loads that already work in my rifles, have to be accurate, and reliable.

Every 130-gr bullet made has already killed elk, moose and bear, because the rednecks who know nothing about their weapons just shoot at anything they can buy off the shelf.

Elephants and cape buffalo can be killed with the .303 Brit, and have done so, but that does not "prove" that he .303 Brit is an elephant rifle. I have killed deer with a .223, but the .223 is not a deer rifle.

Those excerpted John Barsness quotes on the .270 and 7x57 did not mention the range. I'll bet all the shots are inside 200 yards, with 1,500 ft-lbs of energy on target. Go ask him what he thinks the limits are for the .270 and 7x57, the range and bullet weights. It if it is 150-gr bullets inside 250 yards, he agrees with me.

In fact, in the Dec 2006 issue of Rifle magazine, Barsness says the 7x57 with 160-gr bullets at 2,700 fps is best for big game.

vs.







Nobody has to be an attorney to read English and notice the glaring contradictions. Keep 'em coming, Lee.....

this is so far beyond ridiculous, I'm not sure what to think anymore ...

We are seeing progress fellas.

Here he opines about a reduced load in the 444 Marlin, being careful tell the potential user that he's never actually used the load he's recommending and that the user should actually call the powder company for advice that might carry some real value:

Keep posting, you [bleep] imbecile!!!!!!! This is beyond hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lee24,

We are not discussing every 130 grain bullet used by rednecks and bought off the shelf.

Again, explain to me why the 130 X bullets that I have twice driven through both shoulders of bull elk only to have them leave exit wounds and dead elk are not ideal for elk under any reasonable circumstance.

After you have explained away the effectivness of the 270 with X bullets for which there are dozens of witnesses, please explain the same thing with respect to the stardard 7mm cartidges.

Feel free to tell us about all the times you have personally used these cartridges with X bullets only to see them fail and provide us with evidence in the way of photographs of all the big game you have taken with cartridges that you claim are better choices.

Britt

How do you know? You have a 3100+ post history of swinging in the wind. Here's some of your own advice for you:


Funny stuff there!

No contradiction; you just need to get your reading level up to 4th grade level. Let me try again. Read this slowly:

The 7mm-08 does not have enough energy with the 150-gr bullets to be reliable for big game beyond 200 to 250 yards. I choose the lower, safer number.

The 7mm-08 does not have the energy to be reliable on any game with the 120-gr TSX beyond 400 yards, because its speed is too low to reliably open the bullet, according to Barnes.

The 120-gr Nosler BT might be good on small deer and antelope to 500 yards (but who wants to shoot them that far, anyway?).

Maybe you can get John Barsness to give up his preference for the 160-gr bullets like the Nosler Partition at 2,700 fps out of the 7x57 and 7mm-08, and switch to the 120-gr TSX. Get back to us. Good luck!

You have not adressed the question of how FPE relates to predicting the ability of a projectile to inflict a lethal wound................

DING DING DING

This thread is DONE DONE DONE

The 120 TSX is adequate to open out to 400 yards, 150-200 further than the adequate range of a 150 gr lead core boolit. Most folks shouldn't be shooting at 500 yds on deer and antelgoats anyway.

That would make EITHER the 120 or 140 TSX the "BEST ALL AROUND 7-08 CHOICE"

Whether one believes in "energy theory" or not, the 120 or 140 TSX is the "Best All Around Choice" for the "one boolit 7mm08 hunder"

Now y'all quit wasting bandwith. This schoolyard nah-nah-nah is an embarrassment to this board.

Only my opinion,

GE

This is 300 yards with a 7-08 and spitzer bullet.



By your own definition, it does! That's the problem with operating in the theoretical. Your advice carries about as much weight as the contents of my 800 fill Mountain Hardwear down jacket!

Lee24, We are still waiting for you to explain why a 270 with a 130 X bullet is not ideal for elk.

castandblast,
Since you apparently don't own a .444, and haven't tried a reduced load with H-4895, you haven't a clue. Those who do have a .444, and have used H-4895, know what I am talking about.

Try 36.0 grains of H-4895 in your future 7mm-08 (when you buy one) under a 120-gr Ballistic Tip, for a really mild 200-yard deer load. It's great for young shooters and women.

What will the 130-gr TSX do elk that a host of 150-gr .270 bullets don't do better?

Ok ... so let me get this right (before I go off and do the math on it) ...

it's NOT ok to use a full house 120g TSX load in a 7mm-08 past 200 yards, but it IS ok to use a BT loaded down to roughly 65% at 200 yards and under?!?!?!

WGM, you also can't read well.
200-yard limit for the 150 to 160-gr for big game,
400-yard limit for the 120-gr TSX at full throttle for DEER.

I recommended the 120-gr BT emulating a .257 Roberts at 2,600 fps as a youth load for younger shooters. It's fun to shoot, and unlike the TSX, cheap. I have an even cheaper fun load with a 110-gr HP that even you smaller guys can shoot 100 rounds of in one practice session. That's what it takes to build skill.

What will the 130-gr TSX do elk that a host of 140-gr and 150-gr .270 bullets don't do better?

Lee24,

Once again you fail to discuss the issue.

Once again you try to change the subject.

Once an old lady busybody approached the great preacher, D.L. Moody and said "Sir I do not like the way you present the gospel."

Moody responded by asking her how she shared the gospel with others. The lady replied" Well, I don't do it myself."

Moody said " Madam, I prefer the way I do it over the way you don't."

I prefer to actually hunt with the guns and loads that I discuss than to be critical of others in areas where I have no experience or expertise.

You have no credibility here, I've only been here a few weeks and I can see you know nothing about the subjects you profess to lecture others about.

Britt

I didn't bring up the .270. I just asked a question that you can't answer.

TRY THIS:

What will the 120-gr TSX do elk that a host of 140-gr 150-gr 7mm-08 bullets don't do better?

It'll kill every darn elk that it is pointed at in an inteligent manner just as well as the 150's etc will do.

Dead is dead pard.

The last bull I took with a 270/130TSX combo came out of the timber @496 yds. I took it on the point of the near shoulder with a 130 TSX and the bullet went on thru the bull and exited the far rear quarter.

Said volunteer bounced!

Not sure what a 150 out of a 270 and or a 210 out of my 340 would of done any better...?

If you don't mind Lee indulge me this and tell me about your elk hunting experiences, what have you shot, where have you hunted, has it been guided and or unguided? And what you used for rifles/rounds/bullets etc.

I'd truly like to hear as you seem to have a lot of thoughts on said subject, so I would like to hear from what experiences you know these things to be true.

Many thx 4 your time

Mark D

It doesn't take long............

You're the ones who can't discuss the issues I raise, and have to divert into the bullrushes or insults. Maybe I am making you think about too many new things. Just take a break, then come back to the core question?

What will the 120-gr TSX do elk that a host of 140-gr 150-gr 7mm-08 bullets don't do better?

Another childish surrender in the above thread, after facing the reality that:

* Barnes says the 120-gr TSX lacks the energy to reliably open beyond 400 yards.

* Hunting experts agree that 200 yards is the safe limit for the 7mm-08 on big game, due to energy with any bullet.

* Inside 200 yards, where the 120-gr TSX has enough theoretical FPE for big game, it is inferior to the heavier bullets in trajectory, momentum, energy, retained weight...anything.

* Lots of 140 to 160-gr bullets are proven to work on big game.

* John Barness's favorite 7mm-08 and 7x57 bullet is the 160-gr at 2,700 fps.

* Craig Boddington's favorite 7mm-08 bullet is 150-gr, and he thinks the .30-06 is minimum for elk.

* Most of the outfitters and guides discourage the use of the 7mm-08 if you have something in the .30-06 class or higher.

Seeing how Ric is incapacitated at the moment, and out of respect for Ric and his board PLEASE everyone ignore this ignoramus of a TROLL!!!!

By your own words, and your standards, you haven't a clue either!

It's apparently lost on you that I'm not a proponent or opponent of the TSX, the 7-08, or reduced loads with 4895. I'm a 100% proponent of sound advice rendered by credible folks with first-hand experience. That's what makes the 24 Hour Campfire unique. Unfortunately for you, those same credible folks have had a snoot-full of your BS and are ready for you to stuff a sock in it or move on......

It's bad enough that you advise people to shoot animals with bullets and cartridges you've never drawn blood with. Advising people to use a handload that you have admittedly never used yourself so that you can appear to be smart is simply stupid and irresponsible.

Good point, George. Good time to go load some ammo.....

Never have I had the misfortune to run across someone with such and inability to be embarrassed their own ignorance.

Lee, your BS doesn't fly here because you are trying to snow a bunch of guys who have actually BTDT. You can't BS the players.

Go sling your schit somewhere else where you might be able to BS your way through. Everyone here sees you for the fraud that you are.

Highly entertaining, gentlemen. Please, carry on........

Wow and I have 2 7mm-08 comeing to my house soon ( ss win 70's)
Gosh what was i Thinking ?????? 120tsx should work good right ????

LEE WHAT ARE YOU THINKING???? Oh never mind you cant realy know can you.

Y'all, use what you want.

Lee24, try using something in real life. Numbers from load data, Barsness' and Boddington's writings, don't count for your experience.

Of course, if that's all you have......

Castandblast -

Do you really think that my owning a .444 and loading it with H-4895, and having downloaded other cartridges with H-4895, that I really "don't have a clue"? Of course you don't, but you feel compelled to make some comment, and this is another case of your not being able to politely discuss the point I made from experience. You have the same problem with wanting to argue about the 7mm-08, which you also don't own.

CAS, dvdgeorge and jwp475 are reduced to insults and cartoons, just as when they were unable to discuss facts I raised in my posts about the premium bullet tests last year.

All of you could do better, starting with an admission that you might be wrong when you hunches are at odds with the experience of Boddington, Barsness, Spomer, Fadala, and 99% of the elk guides you can find.

Lee24 gather more "facts"....

At the risk of making you even angrier, I don't think it is ethical to take a 500 yard shot at an elk, and a .270 at that range is definitely inadequate in power. I am glad anytime luck pervails over lack of judgement, and the animal is recovered, but that is not good hunting, and nothing to brag about.

You won't make me angry, we all have our choices.

I am simply inquiring about your elk hunting experiences, dat is all? Respond to that if you choose.

Thx

Mark D

dvdegeorge,

Stop it man you are killing me! Too much humor at this hour.

Lee-thru what experiences in elk hunting do you know this to be true that the 270 is definately inadequate in power?

Thx

Mark D

I see Lee24 continues to belly up to the gourmet cracker-barrel and deliver laid-back wisdom with the serenity of a down-home Buddha who has discovered that stool softeners really work.

1. Insufficient energy for a reliable, ethical shot:

I KNOW the .270 Winchester can't deliver 1,500 ft-lbs of energy at 400 yards, much less at 500.
I KNOW the 130-gr bullet doesn't weigh 150 grains.

So it fails to meet my standards at that range.
Those are also the minimums of all those elk hunters I mentioned above, who like the 8mm Rem Mag, .338 WM, etc.

2. No one needs to be shooting at elk at 300 yards, unless he is trying to bring down one already wounded by some other yahoo.

Most hunters aren't capable of making 300 yard shots.
There is too much time for the elk to move.
There isn't much hunting to it.
Enjoy another 100 yards of hunting to get closer or leave the animal for someone who has a good shot.

3. Most people who brag about these shots put no limits on themselves, because they don't know their equipment or themselves well enough. That's why you don't see the 120-gr 7mm-08 TSX fans mentioning any limits on their Wonder Bullet Death Ray.

well if it's good enough for Captain Kirk and the large creatures he's faced in many galaxies,it's good enough for me...

Lee I am not asking you for all your huba shuba bs, just tell me about where you've hunted elk, the elk you have taken and what you have used in the taking of them.

Bottom line, right now all I want to hear about is your elk hunting experiences.

If you can't answer the above q's about your actual real world elk hunting experience then I'll underforstand that you've got none and I can't imagine that anyone with as many opinions about elk rounds doesn't have any real world experience.

Thx

Mark D

If you can't do it, haven't done it, or have read it in Field and Stream doesn't mean someone else can...

FYI, a 130 grain .270 tipped bullet moving at 3,050 MV has 1450fpe at 400 yards...

I reckon most handloaders can get faster than 3,050fps qualifying for your lack of field experience numbers you spew as minimal energy for elk....Relating killing power to energy is a mullet comparison...

Once again you absolutely have no field experience and no idea what you are spouting....

1,450 FPE fails to meet my standard of 1,500 FPE for any big game, elk being only one of them. If you disagree with that, offer an rationale; tell us why all those experienced elk hunters are wrong for having that or even higher standards.

I wonder what criteria the advocates of 120 and 130-gr bullets have? Why have none of them mentioned any standards?

If you have standards before you act, you don't need to make excuses afterwards.

Jeezus H. Keerist, would you shut the [bleep] UP, already??? PLEASE............ You havnt ever killed an Elk or anything else...SHUT UP, you MORON!!!! There, that is my only response to this thread!!!

I'm sure Mark D took advantage of a heavy tail wind to help shove that 130gr 270 bullet deeper through the elk. Fortunately the wind wasn't in his face or it could've just bruised the skin. Mark seems like a savvy hunter that only shoots animals when the wind is in his favor when he doesn't have his 105mm with him.

Mark D was lucky. That's all.
Even the best shot in the world would be running on luck when using a rifle beyond its capabilities.

Lots of people do it, wound a lot of game, and keep quiet about it. Those who brag about slob shots just encourage others to try.

If anyone wants to tell me why he decided in advance to make such a shot, or how far he would shoot at an elk or moose with a 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08, I would like to hear it. So far, it's nothing more than, "I like Barnes and I like fast bullets."

Why don't you answer MArk's questions?

I already answered Mark's questions, and tried to bring the discussion back to its topic from his diversion to a dead animal with yet a different cartridge as "proof" that his feelings are correct.

Why have NONE of you explained what makes you BELIEVE that the 120-gr TSX is suitable for these shots on animals when the experts disagree?

Lee,

Have you shot anything today, or are you just continuing to talk out of your ass?

Lee,

when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging...............

You seem bent on self destruction.

Stop the presses! A picture of Lee24 hunting...

Lee-what you have not explained is exactly when you hunted elk, where did you hunt elk, and what have you killed elk with?

If you wanna compare my track record and experience to yours, well I've no problem with that as I've got plenty of experience and time on the hill taking elk to back me up.

Seriously if you wanna make a guess as to these things, no problemo, just say you've not done it, that is no a bigga deal to anyone here.

But say it one way and or another. Either you have and or you haven't.

Although I can pretty well sort our your sort as can most others that have chimed in on this thread.

So bottom line here, no camoflage bs answer just answer these 5 questions. If you can't answer these 5 questions in a direct manner then I'd suggest you hold your opinions until you've earned the right to make such judgements.

*when did you hunt elk
*how often have you hunted elk
*where did you hunt elk
*what have you taken elk with
*how many elk have you taken

Thx for your time and I do hope that you take the time to answer these 5 simple and direct questions.

Mark D

Dober, good luck on that!!

Lee,

Mark is an expert,he lives and hunts and is a licsened guide in country that teams with real live big game animals.

I have verified his credentials with the outfitter that works with him. He is the same outfitter who leases our land in Montana,so I have first hand knowledge that he is who and what he says he is.

When he tells you that he has used something in the field he is telling the truth and it can be verified.

Tell us what actual field experiences have lead you to your stongly held opinions that differ with Mark's real world experience.

Britt

Mark, I guess you are focusing on one elk dead to take the focus off your inability to describe the criteria for an elk bullet.

You also have been unable to describe the criteria for other big game bullets, ammo and range. So how do you know that the .270 Winchester is appropriate on any game? You might have killed that elk at 493 yards with a .223. Why didn't you use a .223?

Your shooting a few elk might mean something and it might not, depending upon how many other animals you have seen, seen shot, done right and done wrong. I'm not claiming to be an elk expert, but you aren't one, either. If you can't explain how your rifle works, and why you chose it, you need to stay out of the woods.

An experienced hunter doesn't have to try questionable ammunition on every animal to figure what will and won't work. He can look at performance of several other large animals and tell that this will work on elk or moose, and that will not work.

Elk is one of the few critters I haven't hunted, because I live at least 1500 miles from where elk live, and either have not drawn a tag, or have but had to work. But I lived and hunted in Colorado, Montana and Wyoming, so I have shot large mule deer, mountain goats and deer. All those animals in my personal experience, and the many elk hunters talked to and dead elk seen have led me to classify elk with other big game, and they all have the same minimum bullet for me: 150 grains and 1,500 FPE.

Since you angry TSX speed fans have gotten so ugly, I have done more reading, and found that hunters with lots of experience on elk see my criteria as their minimum. No surprise at the consenus among hunters with lots of experience on a variety of big game.

If you think I am wrong, then Boddington, Barsness, etc are also wrong. Tell us why you think all these elk guides are also idiots, then go after the moose, bear, and goat guides that say you are wrong. I'm all ears.

No, you're all a$$.

RH

I guess you can't fix stupidity...........

Lee,

if you're so inclined (or capable), why not browse the Africa forum for JJ Hack's report on big game bullets from his last trip, and his thoughts on the TSX regarding weight selection.

PS: I'm a TSX fan because I have real world experience with them (unlike you) and I'm not angry, but perplexed at your inability to see what a fool you've made of yourself........

Do you have real world experience with the 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08 on elk or any other big game, because that is the topic of this thread. The elk you shot with a .338 WM or the fish you caught means nothing.

Shooting game doesn't do you any good if you don't learn anything from it.

Strolling through here and still see this thread going.

Why do you guys waste your life messing with this Lee?

Same questions and same answers.

The guy is a troll why do you feed him?

Yep....




I posted a photo of my 7-08, myself, and my dead ram once already. I have been told that when dealing with mentally disturbed individuals it may be necessary to repeat the same thing five times or more before getting a response. It appears that advice was valid.

Lee,

Were those the goats you could see on the mountains, all the way from the outskirts of Denver when you were a boy?

Your BS knows no bounds. For teh record, I don;t believe that you have ever shot anything in your life. If you did, you would know that there are no hard and fast rules for energy, velocity, or bullet diameter. That so much obvious escapes you, is truly laughable.

No, do you?



I have never shot an elk, don't own a .338 or posted a photo here of a fish I caught.



Care to show us anything you've shot/caught/thought about shooting or read about someone else doing it for you?

In regards to suitable elk calibers recommended by reputable guides here is what one very well respected guide had to say, this is copied from his website and he still stands by it as of a couple hours ago...

A: I don't care what the caliber as long as you can shoot it straight. The biggest buck we killed in 2001 was killed with a .243 with 75gr Hornady Hollowpoint bullets. Davey Glover nailed that 33 1/2 inch buck at 250 yards and the buck dropped in his tracks, not merely dead but truly and sincerely dead. Using that same load in my .243 I have killed numerous deer, elk, two bears, and two moose. One elk hunter in 2001 hit a five point bull which could not be recovered and missed a close easy shot at another 5 point bull with his 30-06. Afterwards he was cussing himself for not bringing his .270 with which he had killed 113 animals. He brought the 06 because his friends told him a .270 wasn't big enough for elk. BULL!! You don't need a cannon to kill a buck or a bull elk, in spite of what your favorite outdoor writer says. All you need to do is shoot straight, and for heaven's sake, don't shoot them on the point of the shoulder. That is the hardest place to penetrate an elk's vitals that there is. I have tracked more wounded elk hit by a 300 mag than any other caliber. Please Please bring the rifle you are most familiar with. If you need to buy a rifle I strongly recommend a .270 Rem shooting 130 grain bullets. Great weapon!

But he had never shot gelatin in a lab so Im sure his 30 years of experience and probably several hundred mulies and elk is to small a sample to count for anything. I brought my .35 Whelen and he did everything he could to convince me to use my .308 instead.

Okay, so you've never hunted elk....

So, what about YOUR PERSONAL experience hunting moose? How often, where, when, how many, what calibers, what loads, and what ranges?

No moose? Okay, what about caribou? Same questions....

No caribou? Okay, what about deer? Any species (please cite which). Same questions....

Lee's basis for every piece of advice he gives amounts to nothing more than "educated guesses" because he has not tested any of it himself. Living to far away, no tags, too busy at work, whatever the excuse of the moment, there is no substance because he is only parotting what he has heard others say.

How ironic that his favorite response is "Post some experience....."!

"Educated" is giving him more credit than he deserves when it comes to describing his guesses.

Agreed, reading comprehension has indeed been an issue.....

Lee24 must be related

Those of you who don't understand how your rifles work certainly cannot understand how they will work or not work on something in the future.

I keep having to correct your reading misconprehensions.
This is probably blindness induced by your inability to justify your faith in the Tiny TSX.

I had 3 elk tags last year that I couldn't use, and already have 3 for 2007, but if I bag one, it will be with a proven load from a proven rifle. I don't get anything out of playing with light bullets at 3,000 fps on live game. I have too much respect for the animals.

castandblast thanks Britt for advising him to not use the 7mm-08 on elk:
#1496642 - Today at 03:58 PM
Re: What does the 7-08 offer that the 308 cannot?

What have you hunted? When? How often? With what rifle/cartridge/load? How many of what, and at what ranges?

THOSE are the questions that you are consistently dodging.... care to answer them and why you dodge?

BTW - Lee; here're some bullet pics for you, including the can't work TSXs....

here.

LEE24:
en u klame ta be uh edumakated engunear?
WTF r "misconprehensions"

There are a couple of long threads about Animals Lost to Bullet Failure, with TSXs

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...owflat/Number/1474123/page/1#Post1474123

*when did you hunt elk with a 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08?
*how often have you hunted elk with a 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08?
*where did you hunt elk with a 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08?
*have you taken elk with a 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08?
*how many elk have you taken with a 120-gr TSX from a 7mm-08?

A better question is,WHEN HAVE YOU HUNTED ELK OR FOR THAT MATTER WHEN HAVE YOU HUNTED ANYYTHING...........

Why is everyone continuing to feed this insufferable trollish dunce?

He's not going to answer questions, post pictures, or otherwise prove/verify any relative experience. All he'll continue to do is dodge, spin and put forth inconsistent series of arguments and speculations to attempt to malign everyone.... so that he may feed egotistical imagination.

Just put the TROLL on ignore as all of this is just a waste of time and certainly not constructive.

Hey,

I just did that & the IQ of my computer screen doubled.........

Yeah, it's a waste of time and bandwidth to address this guy directly but you've got to admit that the photo of Sgt. Schultz was priceless, thanks, George....

Another reading comprehension issue, I'll post what was really said again:



I'm glad you called attention to that post, because it illustrates the difference between your advice and sound advice.

ruraldoc has put a bullet through an elk and is qualified to respond when I asked for advice. (You showed remarkable restraint in not opining, for once!) I value his input, (which was that a 180FS fully penetrated an elk, not "don't use the 7-08") and told him so.

You too could receive thanks for your volumes of advice if just a scrap of it demonstrated first hand experience in the field on game. Nobody's ever thanked you for your advice here because we all read the same books, (except the one that you read telling you how to turn wood into rubber, that's not in my library )

There are scores of guys here who's advice is coveted but you are not among them and at the rate you're going you've eliminated all hope of that ever happening. Why do you keep trying?

If the definition of insanity is trying the same thing repeatedly expecting a different result, then you're there, and I'm getting dang close, so I give up.

If you are satisfied being the most ridiculed, least-respected and scoffed-at member of the board, just keep doing it the way you have been!

Lee;

VERY simple questions, for YOU, no one else:

What species have you hunted?
When?
How often?
With what rifle/cartridge/load?
How many of what, and at what ranges?
What pics/proof do you have of this?

It doesn't get much more clear than that.

what seems to be as clear as a piece of Waterford crystal, is that Lee has absolutely NO intention of providing the type of "evidence" or "backup" to his claims that he is trying to require of all of us ...

he's a troll of the highest order, and I've been done with him for a while now ...

*** You are ignoring this user ***

'Tis a beautiful thing

badger

If you want to extoll 120-gr bullets for elk, they have a thread on The Best Elk Rifle.
Warning: they might expect you to explain your opinion.

TFF dude.........

Ok, let's say we have gotten past the 120gr bullet conversation.

And for what it is worth, I prefer a heavier bullet as well....but I haven't ever debated for or against the 120gr due to my lack of experience with it. The bullet I chose is because it shoots well out of my gun and I have plenty of experience killing things with it, without it letting me down.

No more talk of the 120gr bullet.

How about you show us some of your experiences with other bullets and their performance on EX-living and EX-breathing animals?

Who knows????maybe someone will see your post and think, "That sounds like a good bullet-caliber combo for that game and through Lee24's EXPERIENCE harvesting animals, I may just be willing to try that."

Otherwise, it is just you flapping your jaw.

I just bought a Nikon Coolpix digital camera for that very purpose. It fits in my pocket, unlike the full-size Olympus, Canons and Nikons I use for film. I have pictures on film, back to black and white. I will have to set up a posting site.

I dont want to see a pic of ANYTHING in your pocket!!!!!!!!!!

So you are sincerely telling us that with 42 odd years of hunting and on 4 or so continents, you have NEVER taken a picture of any of your harvests?
I could almost believe that if you were farmer that shot deer on the back forty so that his family has dinner to eat....but someone that has traveled the world on a quest to harvest animals, it seems a bit far fetched.

My old man is one of the ornriest men I know and apparently they had to damn near chain him down to take pictures of him at his own wedding, but he has pictures of game he has taken.

I am not usually a sceptic, but I am struggling with this one.
You probably have high speed film of bullets entering "Media" as you call it.....but not one snapshot out of a 35mm of a animal with a hole in it.

Well Lee now has a digital camera, or so he says,...so now its up to him to post a pic. I think Dvdgeorge hit the nail on the head with his last post, and even got a pic of Lee in the process......imagine that!

Looks like some respected authorities have been mis-quoted and editorialized in this thread. Here�s what an actual search turned up, posted in context to restore accuracy to the information presented around here. (Bold type mine):

Spomer, from an online article in Hunting Magazine:

�Just where do we draw the line? Most experienced hunters consider 1,000 ft.-lbs. minimum for deer, 1,500 ft.-lbs. for elk, though of course much less energy will do the job under ideal conditions. Still, the 1,000 ft.-lbs. minimum is a reasonable starting point. Using this figure, the .257 Wby. drops out of contention as an elk round at about 370 yards but doesn't run out of gas as a deer round until well beyond 500 yards. With a pointed boattail 140-grain bullet, the .264 Win. Mag. still generates 1,491 ft.-lbs. at 500 yards. It should be adequate for elk and moose at all reasonable hunting ranges, thus we'll choose it as our minimum all-round cartridge.
From here on up, nearly any cartridge that propels a 130-grain or heavier, sharply pointed, premium, controlled-expansion bullet at least 2,900 fps from the muzzle will meet our minimum energy standards out to 300 yards. Anything faster and heavier is gravy. Or insurance. Your choice.
This means the 7mm-08 Rem. is in, but the .30-30 Win. is out. The .270 Win., .280 Rem., .284 Win., 7x57 Mauser and 7mm SAUM Rem. are in. The .308 Win. and .30-06 are easy picks, as are all of the new short and long magnums over .277 caliber.�

http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/all_012505/

Here�s what Boddington really thinks about the topic, from an online forum:

�Okay, I'll jump on that grenade. You guys know I like the "mediums" for elk (8mm Rem. Mag., .338, etc.). But, honest, I have never, ever, ever (cross my heart and hope to die) said you can't take elk with a .270. My personal longest shot on elk was with a .270 Winchester using 150-grain Partitions (410 yards, one shot, near-instant kill). I think that's a bit on the far side, so let's say that's at least maximum. As for bullet weight, I personally have great confidence in the 140 and 150-grain bullets for larger game with the .270--but construction is far more important than weight. I would have no problem whatsoever hunting elk with a 130-grain Barnes X, Nosler Partition, Winchester Fail Safe, etc., just so long as the bullet is designed to penetrate.�

http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=239715

Being on the safe side of recommended minimums is commendable. Twisting the expert's words and taking them out of context to support weak, outdated argument is despicable, and a sure sign the debate has been lost.

Boddington says .30-06 or 7mmRM with 175s is his minimum.
8mm Rem Mag or .338 WM is his preference.
.270 Winchester is marginal, and 400 yards is too far.

Hunting Magazine 2005
The Ideal Elk Rifle

"I know many hunters kill elk with .270s, but I believe 7mm is the bare minimum for hardy animals weighing up to half a ton. I've never hunted elk with a .416 or similar cartridge, either. You can, but cartridges suitable for elephants and Cape buffalo are no more ideal for elk than are lighter fodder appropriate for deer.

"All of my elk have been taken with cartridges ranging from the .30-06 up to the .375 H&H. I have no issue with those who swear by 7mms from the .280 on up, but I consider .30 caliber as my minimum for elk. I have great confidence in the .30-06 with 180-grain bullets, but in more open country I feel even better about the faster .30s (I also prefer 200-grain bullets to 180s).

"To me, the ideal for most elk hunting lies above .30 caliber and below .375. This means the 8mm Rem. Mag. and the faster .33 and .35 calibers. Just how fast depends on how and where you hunt, and also how much recoil you're comfortable with."

Just boosting my post count.....

Ok Lee let's try it this way.

With out quoting books or magazines or internet articles (because we have already proven that they are not always the most consistent), I will start a sentence and you fill in the blanks.


Based on my hunting experiences harvesting Insert Game Type Here I have found that a Insert Caliber Here rifle with a Insert Bullet Weight and Type Here has been the most effective as can be seen in the picture below when I harvested a Insert Game Type Here in Insert Continent and/or State Here during the Insert Season Here of Insert Year Here

INSERT PICTURE HERE

Lee,

One of the best Elk outfitters in the country is Jed Wayment of J and J Hunting in Utah.

I propose the following challenge:

We both book hunts on one of Jeds ranches ; the good ones run anywhere from 10 to 15 thousand each.

For this kind of money Jed runs near 100% on trophy bulls that score from 340 to nearly 400 B.C.

We both put up the cost of both hunts in advance: we'll get Jed to put the extra money in escrow.

I will carry my 7mm-08 with 120grain tsx bullets .

You carry whatever floats your boat.

If I harvest a bull elk and it is a clean kill, you pay for both hunts.

If I wound and lose my elk [Jed has a strict wounding policy,wound a bull and you can not shoot another],I will pay for both hunts.

This is no joke,I will put my money where my mouth is.

Will you?

Britt