I have been round and round with these GD Full Length resizing dies ever since I started reloading (a few months). It appears that my once fired cases cannot be reloaded like virgin can. I followed several different methods for setting up the sizing die and they all seem to vary. Theres another thread on this forum that links you to sierrareloading info and its exactly the opposite of what the instructions state that came with my RCBS dies. In order for me to size once fired brass for my 338 I have to screw the die body in till it touches the shell holder and then back it out 1 1/2 turns or the case will not chamber without difficulty. I can't believe this chit is so difficult and that there are opposite methods for setting up the exact same die. Going through the same thing with my whizzum Geesh! I think I am just gonna shoot all virgin brass and the hell with once fireds!

Rant over, sorry I am just frustrated as hell over this!

Instructions for every steel RCBS sizing die I've used says to kiss and cam over the shell holder. Not being critical, but do you have the proper shell holder? The exceptions are the carbide units that should not make contact.

If there's a real issue, give RCBS and call, and they will likely have a cure headed your way at no cost tomorrow morning.

Yeah but both dies and 2 different calibers? I must be doing something wrong.

I have done exactly that, ram all the way in upward position, screw in die till it's touching shell holder, screw in a 1/4 turn more in or out , pour powder insert bullet, hard to chamber shell!
The only way to make the shell chamber is by turning die out at least a full turn, I can see air between die and shell holder. This is not the case with virgin brass only with fired brass.


Yes I have the correct shell holders.

You didn't mention anything about Over all case length. Did you check the cases for length?

Yup they get trimmed to spec.

You need to measure to the datum line on the shoulder. Belted mag cases do not need to be taked to original dimentions to fit the chamber in most rifles. Set your die so that you will be headspacing on the shoulder. Yo can do this with a Stoney Point Headspace gauge or similar tool or use your rifle. There could be other issues causing your problem such as your expander ball moving the shoulder forward. Do a search on this site for Partial Full Length Sizing.Rick.

If you run the ram to the top with shell holder in and screw the die in to kiss the shell holder, drop the ram and give the die another 1/4 turn down then secure the lock ring.It`s worked for me for 40 years!!!

Could it be that the die itself needs to be adjusted internally in or out? Like I said if I get a full turn out off the shell holder it will chamber a shell fine.

That could be the problem. I'd talk to someone at RCBS (TEC support) on their 1-800-533-5000 number. If you can't get it figured out with them send a new, fired and resized per their directions peace of brass to them along with your dies.

AC
I agree about the RCBS instructions. They are for how to set up for full length sizing and thats it. I have and use RCBS dies, but I did not keep a single instruction set. When I started out I had an issue with what ultimately proved to be a problem with an oversized chamber. FL sizing was setting the shoulders too far back and creating a headspace problem. If I recall from some of your other posts it seems that you have a 338WM. With my experience, which does not include 338, but does include 7mmRM and 300WM, belted cartridges can sometimes have a lot of variation in chamber size, especially the 7mmRM (at least those that I have had).

First try to rechamber a once fired non-sized case in your rifle. If the fired case chambers you are likely dealing with a rifle with a large chamber. If that is the case you will need minimal sizing. A tight chamber will take more sizing, up to and even possibly including setting the die up to cam over as described by huntz a couple of posts ago.

When you size a case you will be able to see the line on the neck of the case to indicate how far the case went into the die. I would back the die out of the press untill the size mark on the case went about halfway down the neck. Try to chamber that case. If it chambers, then you likely dont need to size any more. If it does not chamber, take the die down closer to the press in 1/4 turn or so increments. I always use a different case for each die adjustment and then resize them all again when I get to the sweet spot with that die for that chamber. This prevents over working and hardening of one case that might otherwise endure many sizing attempts, untill the proper adjustment is found. Sounds like you may have a big chamber if you are a turn and a half above the press.

Also when you get to the proper die adjustment, your expander rod will need to be adjusted also. Adjust that to the point where the primer pops out during the last few inches of the press stroke. You might be either pushing the case too far in or even pulling it too far back out with wherever the expander ball is either entering or leaving the case on the press stroke.

You are correct in your assessment that fired brass loads differently from virgin brass. Sometimes the fired brass needs a lot of sizing and sometimes it doesn't. I've never had a bad RCBS die, but I've eyed some Redding dies with fifferent thickness of shell holders or even with different collets to to use to eliminate the use of the expander. This is probably a repeat of what you have done. If that is the case you may have a bum die. Just because I've never had one certainly does not mean they don't exist.

Remember the case spaces on the belt, so the chamber can be a bit longer. When you have a fired case in the die focus on finding the point in the die adjustment where you are headspacing that case on the shoulder. Hope this helps and hope I didn't just tell you what you already knew.

STeve

I suspect that in following the RCBS instructions you are setting the shoulder back just enough to increase the shoulder diameter. This will prevent the case from chambering.
To determine how far down to size the die lube the case neck lightly leaving enough present so you can see how far down the die is working the case. Wipe the case dry and try chambering. If it is sticky turn the die in another 1/4 turn and repeat the lubing procedure.
You can also use a black marking pen to colour the case neck and watch to see how much colour is being removed.
Presently I only have one caliber out of about a dozen where I have to set the die up to "cam over" i.e. to be set up as you have been doing. In the one die set I have where this is necessary I am starting to suspect that there may be a problem with the make of die being used.

Steve thats about it in a nut shell. Is it bad to screw the die out so it is not kissing the shellholder? I am new to reloading so some of the stuff is somewhat confusing but let me ask this. Once my gun has fired a shell that case is now fireformed for my chamber, so by merely backing the die out to only partially size the brass with mostly the neck being resized is that not okay? What I think is going on is that when I FL resize the fired cases I am getting some blocky lines at the base of the shoulder and at the base of the neck and I dont think that it fits the chamber correctly.

WOW, slow down there big fella. It's not that bad and it can be fixed in no time.
First, the directions with your RCBS FL dies clearly state to, Raise the ram, screw the die in until it touches the shell holder,then screw the die IN 1/8 to 1/4 turn more.
http://www.rcbs.com/guide/step5.aspx

The directions for the RCBS Seating die states to screw the die in until it touches the shell holder and then Back the die out one turn more. This is to make sure that the crimp feature of the seating die is out of the picture.

http://www.rcbs.com/guide/printsteps.html

I think you are getting conflicting info by mixing "Seating" and "FL Sizing" with you die set ups.

Have you tried sizing the neck only and seeing if it chambers? Why are you FL sizing 1x fired brass? Look into purchasing Wilson headspace gauge for your caliber. It will tell you if the brass/shoulder is within specs. You can trace the shoulder movement with subsequent firings. Good info to have to let you know if/when you need to bump the shoulder.

Don't load a case with powder until you have established a dummy round (or 3) that functions in your magazine/rifle chamber with the bullet(s) that you will be using.

Use a magic marker to see what is going on in the FL or NK die. This is very important, and will reveal lots! As Stick used to say, you can blueprint your chamber with a marker.

You will get the problem solved. Just take this as a great opportunity to learn some more reloading "stuff".

I can sympathize with you, have run into similar situations over the years. The best I can say is if it works for you, do it. I have never had your exact problem and really can't envision what could be happening to cause a full length sized case to not re-enter the chamber it was fired in without difficulty. I personally wouldn't worry about it, but at the same time I suspect that after a few firings with the die set as you describe you will again have chambering problems. If that does happen I would then take at least a half dozen fired cases and turn the die in 1/4 turn size a case and try it in the gun if it fits fine, if not set that case aside do another 1/4 turn and repeat until a case will chamber. I know it sounds like a lot of hassle but some time that is what it takes. The instuctions that come with a set of dies are intended to work in the majority of situations and provide good useable ammunition. By and large most re-loaders are not satisfied with that and tinker with the die setting until the resized cases will enter the chamber with a very light feel or adjust a smidge more until that feel just barely goes away. This provides a very close case to chamber fit and tends to prolong case life. I have several rifles that once I have adjusted the die to the chamber I have daylight showing between the shell holder and die when the handle of the press is all the way down. Nothing to worry about. There are times when small reloading problems will try the patience of a stone statue just give it some thought and stick with it. Last you may have a bad set of dies, though it's hard to think you ended up with two bad sets. But then if the gods aren't smiling anything is possible. Good Luck

I have those instruction sbut then I read this article on incrimental reloading and it discusses starting a couple turns out and working your way in as opposed to starting kissing the shell holder.

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index....p;page=xring&volume=8&issue=1#01

Chit the way I see it this isn't a cheap hobby by any stretch anyway, maybe I'll just stock up on a buttload of virgin brass and give my once fireds to someone else. Way less headache and both guns shot factory ammo as good as I would want so its not like I am sacrifing much! Bulk Virgin brass here I come! grin

AlaskaCub, I hope you are not serious. Have you at least tried to just neck size the 1x fired brass? This is not going to be the problem you think it is. Remember, this is fun stuff!!!

I believe thats what I am doing by backing the die out a turn and a half when resizing, do you concur?

Maybe, maybe not. Use a magic marker. I assume you only have a 2 die set then?

No it is not bad.

Friend I wish I were close to you. I would have you fixed up in about 10 minites.

GB

[quote=AlaskaCubI have those instruction sbut then I read this article on incrimental reloading and it discusses starting a couple turns out and working your way in as opposed to starting kissing the shell holder.

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index....p;page=xring&volume=8&issue=1#01 [/quote]

First , your link won't open for me so I can't comment on it's content. Second, first and foremost, Follow the instructions that came with your dies. Bullet manufactures make bullets , not dies. If you revert back to the instructions(RCBS) that came with your dies then you should be good to go.

Just a thought.
Dies for belted cases normally don`t size all the way down to the belt as I`ve been told, and difficult chambering often arises because after a few loading they swell too much just in front of the belt to fit the chamber.
Is it possible that screwing the die so deep in the press he is over sizeing the case and moving brass down where it builds in front of the belt obstructing chambering? It fits when he part sizes so obviously there is a problem with sizing somewhere between 1 turn out and one turn after touching the shellholder.

Cub,

I thought we had this thing beat. I'm wishing I was there with you so I could help on site.

mathman

I did too MM, I loaded up a half dozen or so accuracy test loads and was ready to take them to the range and I tried loading them in the gun and they were tight as hell. Dont know what I did different?

I suspect either a tight chamber or a defective die. Smoke or magic marker up a resized cartridge, attempt chambering, and see where it's hanging up. Also, I suggest you send 3 or 4 once fired cartridges and 3 or 4 once fired and resized (bumping the shell holder) cartridges to RCBS.

Lastly, if anyone in the neighborhood has some similar dies, give them a try. One might also try a neck sizer if you can find one.

Still suggest that you do a search on this site for partial full length sizing. Since you are having a problem with two sets of dies, it probably lies in your adjustment. Belted mags need to headspace on the shoulder and you are not doing this. A set of Redding competition shell holders could also solve your problem. Most belted cases don't respond well to the generic instructions provided with the dies.Rick.

What 1minute said.

Suppose the chamber in the rifle is slightly undersized. Partially resize by turning the sizing die 1� turns out and you're not moving much metal, leaving most of the case fireformed to the dimension of the chamber. Brass is a little springy so after firing it springs back to just a little smaller than the chamber and it works out ok.

Size with the die touching the shell holder plus a bit and all that push-back on the shoulder forces the front half or so of the case against the side of the die, perhaps making it a little bigger than it was and you get a tight fit. Remember that headspace is on the belt so that's the critically controlled dimension. If tolerances stack, full-length resizing can move the shoulder back quite a bit. Factory fresh brass would give no problem as it's slightly smaller in dimensions than what you get with a full length sizer.

Not quite a "wild azz guess" but close, RCBS would know, particularly if they had some cases to measure.

--------------

Assuming, of course, that the dies are set up properly. Following manufacturer's directions carefully always worked for me, though tweaking things a bit improved accuracy.

AC:
Just caught this thread. Stop! Step back! Drink a cool one! Wait a bit! Go back and really, really read the instructions. It ain't rocket science. The die is turned down to JUST touch the shell holder. Then, Lower the ram and turn it down only about 1/8 of a turn. Try a fired case. If it doesn't chamber easily, turn turn the die down another 1/8 turn & try it again.
Good grief, I told you months ago to gimme a call if'n ya wanted help. I got all the time in the world, it's colder than a witche's "you know what" and sheep season is 8 months away. I GOTTA HAVESOMTHIN TA DO TA KEEP MY SANITY.
Bear in Fairbanks

AC,
It is NOT bad to have the die NOT touching the shell holder. You only need to size the fired case to the point where it functions repeatably and reliably through the rifle. I have a couple of belted calibers that I have to regularly load for that have the die a long ways from the shell holder. You need about 1/2 to 1/3 of the neck sized , or just enough to hold the bullet. You only need to have the shell holder contact the die base when the cartrige/chamber combo requires near to, or complete sizing. If you are not having chambering problems with the die out the 1 1/2 turns, don't worry about it. What I would do is to take a couple of cases sized that way and load and shoot the same cases several times. Keep note of the tightness of the primer pocket tightness in the process. You could use any old bullet for this instead of burning up expensive ones. Load,shoot, size, and repeat with the die where you have it. If the cases keep working, note where the die is set and leave it alone, because that is where the die adjustment needs to be for that rifle's chamber relationship to the process. I repeat do not worry if the die does not contact the shell holder.

It does seem strange that a case sized in a die properly adjusted to full length re-size will not chamber. You may well be right in that there is some distortion occuring in the process somewhere. I too wish I were closer to Alaska then Southern Oregon, because the problem is likely pretty simple. However if the cases sized and shot from the turn and a half off the shell holder works repeatably and reliably that's where I'd stay. One of these days you'll have a smack your self upside the head moment with the thought"..So that all it was". Or when you figure it out those of us who have replied may have the same sort of moment and wonder why the devil one of us didn't see that. Anyway It seems you are OK were you are. The only other thing I might do is get a chamber cast to be sure something is not out of whack there.

Steve

Thanks for the help fellas. Bear I am pig headed thats my problem, calling you shortly!

Cub

Cub, fellow rookie here as well. I am using the RCBS FL die set part #30801...

I'll bet my left nut you're not pushing the shoulder back quite far enough with your .300WSM....



Here's a trick Kalbrecht told me about. Take a .45 or as I did a .44 mag case and follow the instruction in the pic. It's sorta tricky keeping the two cases lined up in order to get a precise measurement but still gives you a good idea of where the shoulder is at.

FWIW I measured an,

unfired case-3.008"

fired case(not sized (shown in the pic))-3.010"-chambers fine

sized case(die 1/2 turn off shellholder)-3.014"-chambers very tight

sized case(die 1/8 turn past contact with shellholder)-3.012"-chambers with slight crush aka perfect


Try doing this and let us know what you find out. Of course your measurements will be different than mine because we are not using the same handgun brass.........

Thanks to Kalbrecht for giving me an idea of how the dies are working the brass. The 'fire rules.....

I have done the same as SamOlson is demonstrating. Also, as per my entry above:



Check out this easy to use gage. They work great!
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=336210

These from RCBS work too!
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=684505&t=11082005

Gages like this are GREAT for new reloaders. It makes things more intuitive allowing for a better understanding how resizing and brass flow works. You will then reach a point where you will not hang on to every word in a "generic" instruction manual, but start to figure things out on your own. Been there done that, that's how I know.

All Right fellas I must be losing my mind. After taking a deep breath, building a little patience I just went out and lubed up 6 pieces of brass on both my 300WSM and 6 pieces for the 338WM. Step by step I lubed 6 of each cal and reset the dies to kissing the shellholder and adjusted in a 1/8 turn on each piece of brass and I think I am losing it cuz it worked perfect. I felt the tight fit with the die kissing and as I screwed it in an 1/8 turn at a time the crush fit was less crushed till the round chambered easily and then I backed up an 1/8 of a turn till the crush fit was just right but not too tight. I dont know what the hell I did last night that got me so frustrated. I feel like a jackazz now. I even seated a bullet in each to make sure it would chamber fine at it worked perfect. Sorry for the ranting panic attack.

I knew you could do it.

Now you can STOP feeling like a Jacka$$
Hope you have a good day.
HD

+1.

You're absolutley brilliant man! Now that you've perfected that, go have a beer, and take on another challenge. Happy hunting, 1Minute

AC at one time or the other we have been there. Good luck with your reloading and let us know what the results looked like.

Welcome to the club! Don't know how many times I've done something like that. Latest was my old ATV, worked off and on for a couple weeks trying to get it to run when I realized I had a part installed backwards. Fit really well that way too!

Yep. Spent almost an hour one day trying to get my GPS unit to talk with my PC. Turned out the USB cord wasn't plugged in. Duh, 1Minute

Something else that can happen to prevent a loaded round from chambering is trying to crimp the bullet.

RCBS dies, and possibly all others have a crimping shoulder in the neck of the seating die.

I don't have the instrunctions before me, but I believe you are supposed to back the die out from the shell holder about one turn, if you DO NOT want to crimp the bullet.

You can run into problems here. If the bullet does not have a cannalure, you can't crimp it into the case. What happens, if you have the seating die adjusted to crimp, and you try to crimp a bullet without a cannalure, you can put enough pressure on the case mouth to bulge the shoulder of the case, preventing it from chambering. The above might not be your problem, but it is something to keep in mind.

One thing you didn't mention. Is all of the brass you are trying to use been fired in your rifle, or has some of it been fired in other rifles? I have used cases that were fired in a rifle with such a large chamber that the sizing die would not size them down enough to fit other rifles. This is rare, but it can happen.

nighthawk:
So, the problem was that it went in reverse when ya put it in 1st?
Bear in Fairbanks