has any one used this powder with 140gr pills i am using vld thinking start load around 73gr and experience would be great .
i am shooting a 700 sendaro II 26" barrel shoots under 1/2 " with rl 22 and retumbo but around see level it is slow 2920 ext . just would like to eak all the fps out of her that i can .
any feed back will be great.

Tried it, WAY to slow.

RS Magnum and RL25 are better choices.

That is slow.Before buying any new powders,I would suggest a box of Winchester factory 140s, JB got 3100+ in his Westerner,then you will know if it's the rifle or the load.

The old standard for the 264 was the dirty H-870,or some of the surplus powders in that range. US-869 should work.My choices after some testing were Magnum and Magpro.US-869 wasn't out then.

62 grains of H4831 gives me 2900 fps in a 22" barrel with 140 grain bullets. I would expect close to 3200 with the same load in a 26". H1000 may give a touch better.

You're full of crap. You have not even tried it out. So, please, go waste your money buy some and give us a first hand report.



300 fps gain with 4 more inches of barrel?

He won't gain anymore than another 120 fps for just a bit over 3,000 if he's lucky.



May? so another poster who has not tried it out to say for certain?


Another full of crap post.

I just saw something, both full of crap posters are from Canada.

Now I know why.

Why screw around?

RS Magnum for 140s and MagPro for 120s. Both are now listed under 264 win mag data in the new fliers from the maker, so there's no digging up that old handloader issue...

Simple.

Yep.

SU35 - By the way how many .264WM's do you have? I'm on barrel #3 on two different guns in that cartridge and have been loading them for 45 years. You obviously do not have a clue... So go back to behaving like somebody crapped in your corn flakes, and stay topped up.

Really? 45 years? and you really think you can gain 300 fps with 4" of barrel?
75 fps per inch?

62 grains of H4831 gives me 2900 fps in a 22" barrel with 140 grain bullets. I would expect close to 3200 with the same load in a 26"

You mean I am guessing?
45 years and three barrels and you don't even really know?

Tell us more, please.

I found RL-25 certainly did not work in the 264.And I'm not the only one who found each round in the 3-shot string increased the velocity alarmingly.You are not one to talk about good advice.

That pound of RL-25 is being used in my 6.5-06,where it behaves normally.

SU35 "Tell us more, please."

I already told you. "You obviously do not have a clue..."

Using factory data,H-4831 is run at max pressure for this cartridge whereas H-1000 is run well below.In my 264, H-1000 was spikey and inaccurate.This is suggested in the factory pressure numbers.

I had the same thing happen in my 264, a 26 inch Winchester, with RL25 and 140 gr bullets. Out of a three shot string, #3 would be as much as 250 fps faster than shot #1. The phenomenon was very repeatable. The only explanation is that powder burn rate was increasing with increased barrel temps.

I had pretty good luck with H4831 and 100 gr ballistic tips. With 140's (my rifle really liked the 140 Sierra spbt) I made 3100 fps with great accuracy using H1000 with CCI 250 primers. The rifle produced a few additional feet per second with Magnum.

I have not tried 869 in my rifle, but as Retumbo was too slow to produce high velocity for me, it would be a safe bet that 869 also would be.

If I were starting with a new rifle in 264, the go to powders for 140's would be H1000, IMR 7828, and Magnum.

It could be a couple of things. One, RL powder is quite temperature sensitive. If you let the cartridge sit and cook a bit in a hot chamber before you pull the trigger you can significantly elevate powder temperature. RL produces more pressure as it gets hot.

The second effect is more likely if you have a heavy barrel. Short spaced shots with any powder can heat up the inside of the barrel, while the outside stays cool. When a barrel is heated slowly the bore opens up as it gets warmer. However, if it is heated quickly with short spaced shots the metal has no where to go, because the cold outer part of the barrel restricts it. So it actually expands in temporarily. The constricted bore can elevate pressures and velocity.

range report tried retumbo, rl25, rl 17 and us869
140 vld cci 250 , ww cases
1. rl 25 66gr 2965 fps max very accurate .377 3 shots
2. rl 17 57gr 2954 fps max
3. retumbo 64.5 2920 fps very accurate .097" 3 shtos
65.5 2965 fps 1.25" group
66.5 2990 fps , 1.5" group
4. us 869 76gr 2836 fps not max but to slow to proceed

i will be using 64.5gr of retumbo at the 2920 just really wanted to break the 3050foot mark to out do the 6.5x284 at 2988 with 140 gr accubonds

I also noticed the bearing surface of the vld lowers pressure these max loads are not safe for accubonds .

i do think the us 869 would work in a longer than my 26" pipe 28 or 30" maybe .

Fred, something seems to be wrong with your velocities. I just checked my load book, and the last time at the range I got an average of about 3020 on some 140 gr. bullets, with 61.5 grains of H4831 in a 22" barrel. A 26" barrel should be giving you at least 200 fps more, and possibly as much as 300 fps.

It would seem that either your chronograph or mine may be off... And, to be honest I don't trust mine that much. But it did give me about 7 loads in the 3000+ range in a row. I definitely do not trust it based on 1-2 shots. And on another cartridge is is giving velocities in the expected range.

My thoughts are that Retumbo is a bit slow and may not give ideal velocities. H1000 and H4831 are the prime ones for speed. Unfortunately the 264WM has become the forgotten child, and the recommended loads scaled back from what they were years ago. Hornady for example recommends a max load of 58.8 for H4831 which is silly. They also say max of 60.3 for H1000 which is even sillier.

On the other side of the coin, I have an older Sierra manual that recommends up to 63.5 max for H4831. That would be a touch high in my guns. And, current Hodgdon on line load data is messed up. They have interchanged the loads for 160 grains with the 140 grains. So you have to look at the 160 grain loads to get what they think are the correct ones for 140.

The other source of data is ADI in Australia, who actually makes the H4831 and H1000 (and other extruded powders) for Hodgdon. You can get a cross reference to Hodgdon here. Here is the ADI Load Data. ADI is saying 68 grains of H1000 is max, and 61 for H4831. They both I suspect are a bit light for max in my guns. I've probably shot over 1000 rounds at 62 grains H4831 using the original army surplus version, the Scottish version, and the current ADI version.

If you haven't already you may want to use a few loads to test the pressure limit for your gun.

wow, that is pretty slow.
In comparison, 140s with 75 grains US869 does 3100ish.
64 grains or RL25 did 2980, but I've only tried it a little bit.
65 grains of Retumbo is upper 3100s

A couple of notes in response:

No, there was only a second or so of chamber time. I was sitting at the bench and shooting over the chrony. Just chambered the round and pulled the trigger.

The rifle is a Winchester 70 Classic with the standard magnum sporter weight 26 inch barrel.

One of the esteemed gun writers on this board (I think it was Denton) gave us a report where he compared burn rate of powder with barrel temperature as a variable. The temperature of the barrel has a greater influence on burn rate and pressure propagation than the temperature of the round as it is chambered.

So, if one works up what appears to be a perfectly safe and sane load in January when the temps are about 30 degrees, and then goes out to shoot that same ammo in August when the temp is about 105 degrees, one will most likely find a little higher velocity and pressure in August. Then add to that scenario a temperature sensitive powder like RL25, and the third shot in a string will expand the case head so much that it will no longer hold a primer or fit in the shell holder on the reloading press. BTDT

A few load notes:

140 partition.....63 gr H4831....November......3028 fps

140 partition.....66 gr RL25.....November......3090 fps

three shot string:
140 partition.....69 gr RL25.....November......3045 fps 1'st shot; 3188 fps 2'nd shot; 3309 fps with blown primer on 3'rd shot

140 Sierra spbt..61 gr H4831.....March.....2950, 2934, 3000 fps
........................63 gr H4831.....March.....2955 fps
........................65 rg H4831.....March.....3043, 3066 fps
........................66 gr H4831.....March.....3075 fps (w/ a pierced primer)
........................67 gr H4831.....March.....3085, 3145 fps

140 Sierra spbt..66 gr RL25......March.....3006 fps

140 Sierra spbt..67 gr H1000....August.....3015, 3004 fps

140 Sierra spbt..66 gr Magnum...May........2898 fps
........................67 gr Magnum...May........2951 fps
........................68 gr Magnum...May........2991 fps
........................69.5 gr Magnum May........3045 fps
........................70 gr Magnum...May........3038 fps
........................70.5 gr Magnum May........3080 fps
........................71 gr Magnum...May........3150 fps
........................71.5 gr Magnum May........3087 fps
........................72 gr Magnum...May........3155 fps
........................72.5 gr Magnum May........3133 fps
........................73 gr Magnum...May........3188, 3153, 3133 fps

When RL 25 first came out I was shooting it in a m70 SG and seen no problems.

I bought a different lot and used it in the Rem 700 then I started seeing some pressure spikes.

The use of the powder remains inconclusive to me for use in the 264 as there appears to be a lot to lot variance.
I think it still worth a try in Freds 264 so I suggested it.

As far as the use of us869 it's to slow for the 264. But if someone wants to go waste their money buying some go ahead.
I was using it in a long throat 264.


Still trying to figure out how Ronaka is getting a 300 fps increase with 4" of barrel.

I find that theory a bit suspect, and have never heard of it before. Cartridges typically reach full pressure essentially before the bullet starts down the barrel. By then powder temperature is in the thousands of degrees, and I can't believe significantly affected by the temperature of the barrel.

You have certainly fed those loads far more H4831 than I would be brave enough to try. If you can use 67 grains of H4831, then something is keeping the pressure down. Off the wall thoughts, but have you checked your powder scale? Tested velocity with a different chronograph? Also how many rounds have been down that barrel? Something does not seem right...

Still trying to figure out how Ron aka is getting a 300 fps increase with 4" of barrel.

It's easy to underforstand, it's the I-net baby people can say anything they wish and they don't have to back it up..

Dober

The scale is an RCBS 10-10. It has been checked and is right on. I have not cross checked velocity with another chronograph. Mine is an old Chrony, but data derived from it with various rifles, loads, and the 41 mag revolver suggest it is not suspect.

Rounds down the barrel? probably about fifteen hundred at that time. The barrel gave up the ghost on me a few years later at about 25 boxes of 100 bullets each.

On another thread, a while back was discussion of powder burn time, with data generated via electronic instrumentation. The consensus was, a fast burn rate powder may very well be consumed before the bullet has moved two or three inches down the bore. But some of our slower propellants will actually still be burning when the bullet has traveled a substantial distance.

Consider, the heat we can feel with our hand on the exterior of the barrel has little to do with the actual bore temperature, if shots are fired in rapid succession.

Of note is the FACT, the rate of any chemical reaction will double with every ten degree centigrade increase in temperature. With that in mind, one can understand that the rifle barrel acts as a dampener to burn rate by sucking heat out of the reaction.

If the bore temperature is still several hundred degrees from the energy of the last shot, it will not dampen the burn rate nearly as effectively as a cold bore.

It is worthwhile to note.

The Sierra manual shows 62 gr of H4831 as max load at 3000 fps with a 140 gr bullet.

Hornady says 58.8 gr at 2900 fps is max.

Nosler #4 does not even list H4831 as a suitable powder. Nor does my old Speer #10 from 1979.

When this data was collected, I was plotting charge weight vs velocity curves. The pierced primer and the flattening of the curve above 3000 fps suggests that the loads are well over maximum. The data was presented for informational purposes, not as a load recommendation.

There are far better powders for this application than H4831. But RL25 is not one of them.

"Rounds down the barrel? probably about fifteen hundred at that time. The barrel gave up the ghost on me a few years later at about 25 boxes of 100 bullets each."

My barrels died at about 800 rounds. I suspect a badly burned barrel even at 1500 rounds was a significant part of your issue.

and even more nonsense



and more nonsense

The rifle was still shooting right at half minute of angle with nearly everything I fed it: 100 gr BT, 120 gr Bt, 120 gr Rem CL handloads, and 140 gr Sierra's.

If you read my post carefully, you will see that I had no issue. The rifle was producing speed exactly in line with those predicted by the load manuals.

Sierra says 62 gr of H4831 should get 3000 fps. I was right there with 61 gr.

It is quite common for the charge weight/velocity curve to flatten as one goes above published loads, which is what happened in the sample above. More powder does not always yield more velocity in a linear fashion. When that becomes the case, you have already gone too far with the load.

If you want to shoot the 264 with 140's and H4831, shoot it at about 2950 fps and be happy. Of course a guy can do that with a 270 and about the same charge of H4831.

Yup, correctamundo Idaho, but we always knew that.

Ron should attach another 4" of barrel and get another 300 fps.

i think my barrel is very rough and that could cause slow speeds . thinking of lapping it to gain fps using the jb snake oil on it right now to try to polish her up a bit . never believed in this stuff but worth a try if it will not out run my 6.5x284 it will be a 28" barrel 338 edge by huntin time .

I tried US869 in the Model 70 I use to own. It was short throated so I was using some remington CL that would allow me to seat out farther. I had worked up to about max for the data I had at the time and the velocity was quite disapointing (24" barrel) . Now the old H-870...that worked really well in the 264.

looking to get my hands on some h870 to try . the retumbo is tops for speed and accuracy right now the max for the little data that i can find varries alot . their is not a lot of new data for the 264 wm even though their is a lot more suitable powders for it .

I've always thought N570, formally N170, would be the powder to try

There is something we can agree on without name calling.N-570

This is my second 264 barrel,the first one was both slow and walked.

In the first barrel;
-H-1000 popped a primer with the starting load,I ended up using H-4831 data.I'm distrustful of this lot.A 264 seems brings out the worst in powder.
-Also in the first barrel IMR-7828,was slow and had an open grouping.
-N560 was slow,but at least the holes lined up on three different targets,as I said, the barrel walked.

In the second barrel:
-N-560,slow,and topped out slow,even adding more powder.
-RL-25 see above
-Retumbo,didn't group
-Magpro,OK
-Magnum, 3150 with a 24" and a 1/2" group

I bought a rebarrel?? rechambered?? Husky 1600 6.5-06 it goes slow compared to what JB gets with his.That's why I suggest using Winchester 140 Powerpoints to get a base line.

My apologies, i'll work on my tone, and words.

I dumped my last charge of H870 about two weeks ago. I have been doing workups for a replacement. I was getting 3150 out of that load.

76.2 Grns US869 3040 out of my 24 inch Ruger with VLDs. I can seat them to max magazine length and that ups my capacity some. I hit a full case at around 78 Grains. I have not shot all the work up loads I made, so 76.2 is a far as I have gone.

I get 3100+ with 7878ssc. I started flattening primers at 64.8 grains and backed down. Extreme spread of 9. Maybe I'm wasting my money trying other things.

Magpro is looking promising, So far Retumbo is pretty erratic.

I use 57 grains of IMR 4350 in the two Sako's and two Westerner's. they all have 26 inch barrels. They chrono at 3025 fps. Kills stuff dead. I use Nosler ballistic tips.