All purpose hunting-mulies, elk, 'lopes, bears, and sheep+goats one day. Out of a 280 AI, so MV would be around 2950 and 3050, respectively. My shots are anywhere from spear-chuckin' distance to 600. Looks like the 150 gives up 3-4" of drift at 600.

Which do you choose?

Can't speak for the Amax, but the BT is a good bullet out of my 7mm saum. Tougher than you think.. Cheep, accurate as hell, and easy to find on shelves.

I remember the bull you killed with one of 'em....

That was a 140 accubomb.

I've killed a lope at 300 plus, and a few dinks at close to middling range. Surprised at the lack of grenade action on shoulder shots at close range.

What about the 150 LRAB? Best of both worlds? I realize there's no real data yet -- or maybe even bullets -- but worth a look.

I'd not fret the 150NBT at any range you mentioned above.

Would you fret the 162 at any of those ranges?

If I go to any other VLD, it'll be the 168 Berg...

No.

I have a buddy who shoots the 168 out of a 7mag. It's the only bullet he shoots. Near or far, it's never let him down. The up close shots do show some serious carnage, but it's always exited. Big holes out the back, little holes going in.

I'd listen to him Flounder. He's in Pre-Med.

Good to hear.

I can't imagine that there is a whole lot of difference between the 162 and the 168 on animals.

I'll do some research of my own in November and see what I see.

Speaking of Pre-Med, I'm seeing good things out of your 243AI Montana. The 105's look good with a tightish lug. If the crops weren't still in, the throat would be toast by your next trip down!

I'm happy with 1,2,3,4. Things were a little warm on #5 high and to the left..

Damn good vertical anyhow... That's what matters!

Skip the Gay-Max.

To me "all purpose" means the ability to penetrate to the vitals from the inopportune angles which are sometimes the only available shot, especially when hunting trophy game.

Add to that the elk on your list, and I'd think about a little tougher bullet.

When I think "all purpose" I think along the lines of an Accubond or Partition. You may give up a few inches of wind drift way out there compared to the Match type hunting bullets, but you gain some straight line penetration, especially when bone is encountered.

I won't buy any more Accubonds, after last year's [bleep]' rodeo with a mule deer.

Partitions on the other hand....

Dobrinski has killed a chit load of critters with the BT outta his 7mm whatever, which led me to believe he was on to something.

But I have BADD ( bullet attention deficit disorder) and have loaded up a pile of .284" 120 TTSX's for this season.

I hear you on the BADD. I got it...bad.

How quick were you shooting the 150s?

2950 fps mv or thereabouts.

Shoulder shot a WT doe at about 2945 fps to see what would happen and was pleasantly surprised.

[/quote] Would you fret the 162 at any of those ranges? [/quote]

I might!!! I shot a spike elk last year with my 708 AI muzzle velocity of 2830. shot it at 260 yards velocity at that range was 2457, hit behind the shoulder the 162 weighed 65.2 grains. hit one rib on the way in.

Hard to say what might of happened if I was using my 7 WSM with the 162s at a muzzle velocity of 3200 and shot it on the shoulder at lets say 75 yards and it was a big heavy bull. More testing needed for sure.

Tanner, at your velocities the 150gr NBT should work just fine. I typically switch to accubonds around 3200+.

What kind of issue did you have with the Accubond last year, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Hit a buck in the shoulder at 140yds with a 110 via 25/06.... It blew up after about 3" and never even made it to the other side.

I was lucky to find the buck and kill him. I'm not sure what happened, but it weren't pretty.

So I take it your MV was around 3400-3500?

Sounds like you recovered the bullet. Did the jacket seperate, was it just fragments? How bad did it blow up?

A 110 at 3500? I wish. More like 3,000.

Not recovered. Never found fragments or anything but I didn't look very hard.

160 Partition is your huckleberry. Life is easy, don't make it hard.

The more I hunt, the more I realize I should just run Partitions and be happy.

If you carry a complete weather station around with you while hunting you MIGHT have an advantage with the AMAX. I think that missing the call by 2 mph on the wind velocity might be about the same difference?

Lots of folks worrying about 2-3 inches of wind drift that can't tell the difference between a 5 and 15 mph wind..

Pick a bullet that shoots good out of your rifle, has a solid reputation of good on game performance and learn to run it. There are no magic bullets out there yet.

Great post from a great guy.

When it comes down to it, good terminal ballistics absolutely trumps a slight advantage in external ballistics.

Lotta wisdom in these comments IMHO......if my memory serves me correctly, there's a certain member here on the ' fire that probably has more trigger time behind the .280AI than almost anyone else..... Seems to me me he wrote quite a bit about the cartridge and also wrote the introductions about the AI cartridges in a few load data books.............IIRC, he's about filled a few arks with 120 NBT's.......... but then I might be wrong.............
YMMV,
BD

He also said the 150 NBT was a perfect match for the 280 AI at about 3,000 fps...

I just got a box of 150 LRABs, anxious to try them out and see how they shoot. I'll be even more interested to see how they perform on game.

The trouble is, miss the call by 2 mph with the BT, and you've now doubled the wind drift differential. Less drift in the same wind gives you a larger margin of error in your wind call.

A good LR hunting bullet is a different beast from a good point-blank hunting bullet, which is why I run two loads in all my rifles. I carry a mag full of TTSX loads for close, quick opportunities, and a few rounds in a pocket loaded with a better LR bullet like the AM or VLD. Until of course the bullet companies start to perfect the best of both worlds. The LRX and LRAB are both an effort to make a bullet that does both jobs well, but neither one is quite there yet, IMO.

The 150 LRAB might be the best one-bullet compromise yet available for Tanner's .280AI. It's price doesn't preclude ample practice, like the LRX does, yet it seems to be a slippery bugger that should hold together better than your average target bullet on close shots.

My exact experience with 25-06! I will not hunt with one again.
AMax, though designed as a match bullet, has given many people great results as a hunting bullet.

So you're blaming it on the chambering, and not the bullet?

Never shot a deer with the 110 AccuBond but I have used quite a few chamberings on them up to the 300 Ultra Mag. Nothing has killed any faster than the 25-06 its pretty close to deer cartridge perfection IMO.

Common sense here.

Tanner if I were doing it, I would grab he 150 BT,not because I have used it on game myself, but because Dober has killed a pile of western animals with it, and he says it works from the Mashburn and 7 Rem Mag.

Plus, it will likely shoot with the exact same loads and group alongside the 150 Partition (it does from my 7 Rem Mag),and you won't see a trajectory difference between the two bullets until you get to 600 yards; even then it will be about the width of your hand. I know this from shooting both at 200-600 yards.

And if you are squeamish at all about shoulder shots, or worry at all about bullet blow up at close ranges(which you should think about) the 150 Partition will end that conversation.

Re: chambering comment, EACH Bullet has an ideal or 'Optimum' speed envelope for max performance.

I don't know if technology will ever produce a 'One bullet Does ALL PERFECT at ALL RANGES' - it's simply asking too much IMHO.

If we toss BC, etc. all out the window and just look at what has proven to do a great job up close and on most shots of reasonable distance, the Partition leaves little to be desired. Many other bullets might work as well, some perhaps better on either ends of the impact speed spectrum, yet with a soft nose for long shots, and an H jacket for penetration, it's pretty reliable and simple. That said, I too have and will continue doing 'research' - though in the end the one variable that is perhaps most important is still shooter skill.

I have killed deer with 70gr TNT varmint bullets in 243 and 6BR b/c I used them within their limits, neck or lung shots.

Remember, you don't have to punch 1/2" Steel to kill game, simply thread vitals with the bullet in chamber. If your shot angle is poor, wait and/or pass the shot. If the range is too far, stalk, get closer, or pass the shot.

The Range we choose to take a shot, and WHEN we time the trigger break - ie. shot placement, is within the shooters ability and responsibility.

Tanner will do well with 150 BTs or PTs with shot placement, and many other bullets will do well. In the endless chase for speed, some forget just how darned effective much slower rounds have killed for decades. Think 45/70......

An Amax is a good bullet and proven very effective, yet as the impact speed goes up, the penetration shortens, and on larger game, this can create challenges or limitations if you will.

How much one wants to 'limit' themselves by using say an Amax is subjective. On deer, it's little issue. On Elk or Moose, it might fail to punch heavy bone or reach vitals from a raking shot, one cannot be as confident pre-shot as with a stronger constructed bullet. BALANCING Expansion and Penetration is the dilema, but again, a Partition does both........

Analyzing data is useful and fun, but it can also be over-done and give one headaches. Don't ask how I know

Tanner, when I 1st started with my 280 AI I went accubond. after reading Dober's experience with the BT's I tried them. For my work and after several successful hunts, the 150 BT is the choice.

Randy

BTW - Tanner, you might simply check POI with say a 162 Amax for the smaller species you hunt, and then the Partition for Elk n Bear.

I've made the switch to 168 VLDs. I've seen enough of the VLDs to know that I'll be just a little bit more comfortable with them....

I'm thinking that at around 2900, they'll be a damn good one....

Dammit, I was hoping you'd try the 162 A-max and report back on the results. I'm just going to run a 162 Hornady BTSP this year and call it good. I tossed the A-max idea around too, but the good ol proven interlock won out in the end. Good luck with your hunting Tanner!

His statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it SP...

Enough guys have killed a ton of stuff with the 162s, but most are probably better hunters and shooters than I am. I need all the insurance I can get!

I only get to kill one CO mulie a year.... Gotta' make it count!

The 154gr Interlock worked good on a caribou back in early August for my brother via his vanilla 280. I found him a load over the summer with RL22 at around book max. His rifle also liked the 150gr BTs and RL22, but he choose the Hornady's.

IMO, the 162's open quicker than the 168's but, I'd say penetration is very similar between the two. Of the three the 150 Btip is definitely the "hardest".........if you can shoot, all three will work......


X-VERMINATOR

JMHO buttt I think people get to hung up on BC's and all that jazz instead of worrying about whether or not the bullet is a really good one. I do believe the Ballistic tip is a good penetrater though.

Exactly. High BC numbers the bullet manufacturers greatest marketing tool of the last decade.

Tanner I very seriously doubt that you will do measurably better as a hunter with any one of these bullets than you will with another.

Seen his results - he'll put one right thru the Aorta

Probably not.... but for me, it's about confidence. Wind makes me nervous.

My friend killed a grizzly with the 168 vld from his 7 wsm a few years ago. I was a little sceptical of his choice but he said it worked great.

When I was piecing together my new go to elk rifle a few years back I really thought about going with a 7 and running 162's because they fly so well and the price makes it easy to practice a lot. In the end I ended up stepping up to a 300 wsm and and running 208's. the amaxes are pretty soft but the 208's run a lower speeds per case volume and carry enough extra weight to get my confidence up enough to use them on elk. I'm considering running the 208's on my moose next month.

The vlds are said to pencil in a few inches and then come unglued. That's exactly what I noticed a few years ago when I sent a 105 from my 243 through a buck. However, last year I shot a buck with the 140 vld from my creedmoor at 218 yards and the entrance wound was pretty big right under the hide with a few fragments stuck in the ribs on the other side and no exit. It obviously didn't dig for a few before coming unglued. I still haven't found a bullet that always does exactly what it's supposed to but a lot of it is about what you're comfortable in and confident with.

I've seen several elk killed with the 180 nab 30 cal and killed a few with them myself. Then I saw one take one hard on the shoulder, role down the hill, and then walk off at least 3 miles up hill to never be found. After that I reverted back to the 200 nab because I have shot one length wise through an elk. Just a couple of experiences that shaped my view of 30 cal Nab's.

Bb

BB, those upper leg and shoulder bones of a mature bull elk offer quite a bit of resistance and can turn a lot of bullets, and are part of the reality of elk hunting, despite efforts to avoid them.

If I was using something of tender construction in order to get a very high BC I would hope that the volunteer is a good distance away where velocity has fallen off a bit. But for more normal distances I am still something of a carping skeptic despite others success...and would put my faith in bullets of thicker skin.

I have been following this thread with some interest and have to admit I am a bit puzzled by the results of the 140 Berger on Rick's elk, since I have seen far more damage to the chest cavity elk and deer from 270,7mm,and 30 caliber Bitterroots of 130,140-160,and 165 gr weights; and even from Partitions in some instances. And even more so when impact velocity is high(I have my own WAG theories as to why but that's for another day).

In any event I have been told that the fragmenting creates extensive damage but am puzzled by the rather (to me) small amount of damage to the lungs of that elk. Clearly it was "enough" but given the moderate distance(270 yards) I would have expected a lot more given what I have read on here about Berger performance, and the capabilities of thin jacketed high BC bullets in general.


Anyone have any thoughts?

My only thought is that it died immediately and I call that good times.

I'm gonna' run a 168 started around 2900 into a mule deer and possibly a bear, and see WTF. I imagine it'll work....grin!

After seeing all the animals that Burns, Pat, Rick, and others have piled up with the VLDs, it's hard for me to bet against them.

Exactly. This is why I have zero interest in an "exploding" bullet when elk are on the menu. Shots are not always textbook broadside, especially hunting the thick timber, where the big guys often live.

The Bergers have been a bit inconsistent for me. A couple deer and antelope shot behind the shoulder have died fine.

But a yearling whitetail doe, shot behind the shoulder at 75 yards with a 95 VLD at 3200 fps muzzle velocity ran a good 100 yards. No blood-trail. The entrance wound was the standard VLD pinhole, through which no blood seeped. There was no exit wound, which I found a bit silly on a little whitetail doe. The speed and close range may have been to blame, but still....

After seeing all the animals piled up by Partitions over the years, it's hard for me to bet against them.

I guess the biggest thing is, there are no sure bets. Everything is a compromise.

Aren't you using Hybrids this year Billy?

On doe antelope, and doe deer.

TTSXs, or Partitions when it comes to trophy hunting.

I suspect you will be just fine with the Bergers! Especially since they won't be launched at warp speed.

I've kinda stayed out of this but I must say, I can't see why anyone would use an Amax for hunting when they have NBTs available unless its just to save a few dollars.

I would happily use them if that's what I happened to have but would choose the NBT every time for an important shot.

+1 - to each their own, but it doesn't quite seem right to use bullets that the manufacturer states are not intended for use on game as a hunting bullet. I've read Pat's experiences with the 155 scenar, don't really know what that bullet is designed to do. The hunting/hybrid VLDs on the other hand are designed for game. But the A-max and Match King and others are specifically cautioned against their use in that manner. Don't get it.

I used the 162 this year with good results. Pretty consistent exit wounds provided no heavy bone was hit and even then they still performed well out to 450yds. The exit wounds on non shoulder hits looked similar to exits from ballistic tips.

But I'd prefer an all arounder. If I haven't already that clear in this thread .

I think running the Bergers around 2900 will keep things pretty tame. I'm excited to get the rifle back and start load work up.... been too long since I've slung high BC 7mm bullets....

I haven't killed an Elk with them, but they are hell on hogs, even big ones. I'm back to the 155s out of my .308 for this season. I have some 168gr classic hunters, but the load development with the 155s went so easy, I'm probably gonna stick with them for a bit.

John