I had to whip up some loads for my .30-06 last night and decided to stick with the good old 60.0gr of H4831SC under a 180 grain Partition. But I kept looking over at the pound of RL17 and 175gr LRX and figured I might as well put 2 sets of 3 rounds together just to see what it would do.

There isn't much info out there on this combo so I did some figuring based on H4350, IMR4350 and Barnes 180gr TSX data. I also considered SAAMI's relatively low pressure limits on the .30-06. The 175gr LRX is obviously a bit lighter, plus it has one less groove. I have some data that was pressure tested (found on the internet so who knows?) with 180gr TSX and RL17, but that was with Lapua brass and I had R-P brass.

At any rate I decided to give 55.5gr and 56.0gr a try.

The 180 Partitions shot well, printing 3 shot groups in the 0.625" range. More than "good enough". The Oehler 35P said the velocities were hovering around 2630 fps. A bit slow, but hardly an issue. Interestingly the primers were flatening but there was no ejector mark and the bolt lift was very easy. That was probably the quickest and easiest load developement ever!

So I grab the 175 LRX and 55.5gr RL17 load. I shoot and whoa...very obviously heavier recoil. I don't see a hole on the target. Darn. I look at the read-out.... 2990fps. Holy smokes. I lift the bolt - very easy and not a hint of sticking. The primer is flattened a bit, just like with the 4831SC, and no ejector mark. Was it a erroneous reading? I hold at the bottom of the target, which is a haywire way of doing things and shoot again - 2929 fps and the bullet hole is 5" higher than the point of aim. The third shot is 3013fps and the hole is 1" from the second shot.

The mean velocity was 2977fps. I decided against trying the 56.0gr load. Velocity wise this is, imo, very high and even though there were no signs such as sticky bolt or ejector mark I decided to let it be. Of course I can't say much about accuracy for the obvious reasons noted above.

At any rate I am going to drop down to 54.0gr, 54.5gr and 55.0gr and take another look at this combo as it does appear to have some promise.

I was using R-P brass, F210 primers and COAL was 3.370"


Rifle is an Ithaca LSA 65 (Tikka). Altitude is approximately 2200' ASL and it was a very warm day at 29 C (which is about 84 F).

Your results are similar to mine. I've had good velocities with RL17 in the 30-06 too.

Moly'd 208gr AMax at 2720 fps via 55gr, and 22.5" bbl.

moly'd 130gr TTSX at 3430 fps via 67gr, and 24" bbl.

No signs of excess pressure in my rifles, but always start low and work up, as I did.



One of these days I'm going to work up a load with RL17, and moly'd 155gr Scenar.

moly'd 130gr TTSX at 3430 fps via 67gr, and 24" bbl.

67 grains of powder in a .30/06 case?
Is that a compressed load or a mis-print? Not trying to be a smart ass, I just didn't realize you could get 67 grains of powder in a .30/06 case.

It was a bit compressed, but made it in there.

RL17 packs pretty dense as powders go.

I was using fireformed/neck-sized Win brass.

Arac, they are interesting results. Whoah they are fast speeds.

I would be tempted to drop it down even further to about 52g and work up from there, but in any case I am interested to hear what your further tests reveal if you don't mind updating us?

R17 is available here and could be a good back up when I can't get H4350/AR2209.


Montana Marine, have you ever developed a 30-06 load with non-molyed 208 Amaxes? Keen to develop a 208 Amax load in my 30-06 but I think I would need to be making over 2600fps to make it worthwhile. I have a 23.5 inch barrel.

bob' No I haven't tried non-moly'd. I've wondered how much difference it would make though. Just a guess at 1-2 gr less powder, and maybe 30-50 fps less velocity.




For a visual reference, attached is a pic of a Win 30-06 case, holding 67gr of RL17. The 130 TTSX has a fairly short boat-tail, so it didn't take too much depth to seat them well.

Thanks for the info. I have some RL-17 but didn't realize how dense it is. I'd like to try some more experimenting with it in the .30/06. I loaded a few rounds with both the 200-grain Partition and the 200-grain Accu-bond but haven't done much beyond that.

Arac, yeah, when ya get a 300 fps velocity jump, it does attract attention eh?

Last year I was loading my proven .25-06 load, and tried a new bullet/powder combo... Very quickly I was getting .257 Wby velocity and wondering what pressure that load was really generating... I went back to the old load. Suspect my rifle thanked me for that.

With the .30-06, I've long been running H4350, and before that IMR 4350. Starting to mess around with Hunter, and I like what I see so far, on target and on the chronograph. When that load gets sorted out a little better, I'll post up.

Hard to go wrong with a 180 gr Nosler Partition isn't it?

Regards, Guy

60 grains of H4831 and 180 grain bullet sounds a bit warm??

Mine have always liked H4350 and IMR4350, with Re 19 very close.

I have had good luck with R17 in 270, 284, and 30-06.
My experience is you can use around 4 grains less than 4350 with similar velocity and good to great accuracy. So a can goes further and there appears to be less stress to the brass.
Supposedly 17 moves the pressure curve a little further down the barrel.
jmho
Tim

Arac,

Ever since RL-17 appeared there have been reports of amazing velocity gains, though most of those disappeared once a lot of pressure-tested data appeared. The magic gain of 200 fps or more at the same pressures never appeared in the piezo-electronic or strain gauge measuring systems used by almost all ballistic labs these days.

The maximum charge with 180's listed by Alliant powder is 54.5 grains, for 2762 fps using the 180-grain Speer boattail, a bullet that creates relatively low pressure. There usually is some wiggle room in .30-06 data, since the maximum SAAMI pressure is 60,000 psi, 4000-5000 psi lower than most other modern cartridges like the .270 Winchester.

When handloaders start experimenting on their own, however, by loading to "apparently safe" pressures they often add another 5000 psi, since cartridge brass usually doesn't show signs of distress until around 70,000. (Primer appearance has exactly zip to do with judging pressures.)

My guess, based on the stated velocities and a couple of ballistic formulas, is that your handloads are around 70,000 psi. That's not necessarily dangerous, though it doesn't provide much wiggle room for other factors, but it wasn't accomplished purely through the chemical magic in Reloder 17.

Hi MD - thanks for the comment. It was after hearing your advice that I came to appreciate that flattened primers are not a good indicator of pressure. I wouldn't mind up to 64,000 to 65,000PSI, but 70,000 seems pretty darn high. I didn't fire the 56gr loads due to the very high velocity of the lighter charge.

There was a fellow that did some pressure testing with RL17 and the .30-06 a few years back. Have you seen his data? I think I have a hard copy and will scan it in a bit.

I'd be very interested in seeing that.

There's a guy over at accuratereloading.com that did alot of 06 pressure testing. His conclusion was that he could match heavy charges of re22 w/re17 but really couldn't excede them to any degree. Basically same pressure and same speed w/hvy charges of both w/hvy bullets. I guess the argument to be made would be re17 could get really good speed for mid wt bullets cause you'd run out of case capacity w/slow burners.

I do remeber a post a while back from a shooter that was burning alot of re17 that he had come across a significantly hotter lot of re17 when replacing. So I guess just like any powder...be aware!

They are in PDF format and my scanner also scans to PDF. I can't upload a PDF to Photobucket. How can I post it? I tried to convert it to a jpeg, but no joy.

kraky111 - the data I have shows, in addition to other stuff:

180 Partition
RL17 - 2837fps @ 60,100PSI
RL22 - 2850fps @ 62,500PSI

200 Partition
RL17 - 2703fps @ 61,900PSI
RL22 - 2703fps @ 62,000PSI

Do a "screen shot" of the PDF. On a PC, you hit the Print Screen button. This saves a pixelated bitmap (BMP) of your computer screen, included the PDF you have open. Then paste - control V - the bitmap into a program like Paint which comes will all PC's loaded with Windows. Crop up the BMP screen shot and save it as a JPEG. Then load it to Photobucket.

MuskegMan - I hit the print screen button and nothing happens. That button has a line in the middle and also says "SysRq". I tried holding the shift button, Ctrl button...it still doesn't do anything.

I got it sorted out. Thanks MuskegMan.



Still not ideal though....

Here is a LINK to that file.

Thanks Hammerdown! I couldn't remember where I found them.

Am I reading it right? 58.0 grains of RL17 averages 2924 fps with a 180 grain Noslers.

Holy bat [bleep] that's smoking.

Dink

I couldn't get the link to work, and when Arac forwarded me the files my computer said they were infected.

But I do see the 2900+ fps with 58 grains here--at 64,400 psi for five shots. That's about the same pressure as the WSM's.
I looked up Hodgdon's data for 180's and found H4350 giving 2752 fps at 57,200 psi. According to the Homer Powley formula that velocity with single-base powders (H4350 is one) increases at twice the rate of pressure, at 64,400 psi H4350 would get 2925 fps.

Hodgdon also shows Superformance getting 2840 fps at 57,600 psi. It's a double-based powder, so the Powley formula wouldn't quite work, but I'm betting that at 64,400 psi it would at least match RL-17 and probably exceed it.

Will also note that professional pressure labs shoot more than 5 rounds before coming to any conclusion about pressures, partly because SAAMI standards aren't based only averages but the extreme pressures of individual rounds.

So from what I'm seeing here, the fantastic velocities of RL-17 so often quoted are once again due to loading up to higher than normal pressures. This doesn't mean 64,000 in the .30-06 isn't safe, but does mean some other powders will match RL-17, which is what ballistic labs run by various SAAMI members have found.

I have loaded re-17 grain for grain from established loads of H4350 in my 6-250 and 260 with 125fps gains. I got an honest 2980 fps with a 140 AMAX molyed in a 6.5 Swede 46.5 grains in a 25" bartlein 5r

I think you may have typed that backwards since in the above example, the V increase is only 6% & the P increase is 12%............

V increases at half the rate of the P increase.

MM

I'm not surprised. H4350 is normally a little slower burning than RL-17 with heavier bullets in most cartridges. Load the same charge with both powder and the faster-burning powder will result in higher velocity--with more pressure.

This difference often doesn't show up on burn-rate charts, but that's because burn-rate charts aren't absolute. Just about any powder will vary in burn rate depending on the cartridge, and whether the bullet used is relatively light or heavy for the caliber.

For example, let's compare Alliant and Hodgdon data for 140-grain bullets in the .260, 180-grain bullets in the .30-06 and 225-grain bullets in the .338. In the .260 the max powder charges are 41 grains with R17 and 44.5 grains with H4350. In the .30-06 the max with R17 is 54.5 grains, and with H4350 57.5 grains. In the .338 the max R17 load is 67.5 grains, and with H4350 69.5 grains.

So then would it be safe to load a 30-06 to that pressure if the labs agreed it didn't show spikes in pressure over 65,000 psi? Not that I will be doing it as all my 30-06s were made before 64 and the velocity I am getting is fine. Just curious.

That's the general procedure. Some cartridges--and even some cartridge/bullet weight combinations--typically show more variation in pressure than others. (This means both low and high variations, though the highs are what really matter.) One of the reasons the WSMs and other short-fat rounds have slightly higher SAAMI pressures than many if not most other rounds is they typically show less pressure variation.

The .30-06 is usually pretty low in variations itself. The reason SAAMI pressures are kept relatively low (a maximum of 60,000, compared to 65,000 in the WSM's) is so many older rifles in .30-06. But in a modern, strong rifle there's no real reason not to load it above 60,000 psi.

The other factor is that some powders vary more in pressure at different temperatures. Supposedly RL-17 is pretty good, but I've heard reports indicating it isn't as temp-resistant as the Hodgdon Extremes, which has also been my experience in rather limited testing. This means pushing RL-17 to the absolute limit may be iffy in different circumstances. And one general rule is that double-based powders (like all the Reloder line) are touchier at top pressures than single-based powders, and all the Extremes are single-based.

Hey MD- sorry about the files - I scanned them with Norton and they seem ok...so????

Check out the link that Hammerdown posted - all of the data is there.

Great thread! Very interesting information here.

I have often wondered what pressures were to get a 180 gr going that fast from a 30/06. I tried some Rl17 in the 270,and pretty quickly stopped; chronograph readings indicated nothing special over what I had seen before with other powders,and I realized I was headed down the same general path I had traveled with H205 many years ago; a double base powder similar to RL17 from what I can see, although H205 may have been a tad slower.

We got great velocities from H205 in the 30/06 and 338 Win Mag; but it dawned on me eventually that we were really operating too close to redline for consistent use.

For the traveling hunting I was doing, you run into different temps and environments, and I have seen loads that worked fine without a hint of trouble through the hot ,humid weather of summer in the northeast, blow primers first shot in Montana with new brass.

I am not sure why this is but the lessons I learned from all this stuff, is that,(taking the example here)if I have decided that I want a velocity level of 2900+ fps with a 180 gr 30 caliber bullet, I am reaching for a 300 WSM or H&H rather than test the limits of the smaller case to get the same velocities.

Once I "learned" to buy case capacity instead of testing propellants to reach a certain velocity level, my hand loading life went a lot smoother, and concerns went away. The reason is that pressure problems start to crop up in reaching for that last 100-150 fps, (or at least that is what I have seen). And the very FIRST requirement of a load for BG hunting is that it be absolutely safe and trouble free.

Not preaching here because this thread certainly indicates what a 30/06 is capable of and has been very interesting; I have seen 2900+ fps with a 165 gr bullet from the cartridge, in hand loads and factory High Energy stuff, to believe it is safe in a number of 30/06's but not sure I would want a steady diet of that velocity level with a 180 gr.



Besides, you gotta keep an eye on double based powders...they will continue to add velocity as you add more powder in general, whereas IMHO the single based propellants seem to "top out", and adding more powder will not yield any significant gain; when you see that you know you have likely "arrived". I have seen this plenty using H4831 vs RL22 in a number of cartridges.

Anyone know how much pressure it takes to blow a primer?

A couple more comments:

1) Anybody who actually looks at Alliant's latest data with find OTHER powders, even newer than RL-17, that beat 17 in certain applications.

2) If other powders came out without a bunch of immediate, pressure-tested data (as was the case with RL-17 in the beginning), we'd hear about far more magic powders, just as we continually hear about magic wildcats. The reason? When handoaders work up loads with the traditional pressure signs, they're operating above the limit of 65,000 psi judged safe for long-term shooting by rifle and ammo manufacturers.

John, and others----
When working up loads, one thing I watch closely is the O.D. at the web. As I move up in grains there comes a point where the web goes from fairly consistent diameter to starting to grow beyond that dimension. I usually consider a grain below that occurance as max for that gun/load.
If you had to estimate what psi that would normally happen at, what would your guess be????
I load mostly stuff in 308, 30-06 and 284 and there offspring.
I usually refer to 3 load manuals if available, watch the chrony, watch primers, watch for sticky bolts, etc plus watch the O.D. as noted above.
I haven't had a blow up yet, but some close ones.
Am I way off base on load development???? Especially when don't have published data available????
Thanks
Tim

That technique can work, kinda sorta, IF you have something to compare it to. It's the method Ken Waters used, comparing web expansion to that of factory rounds.

There are still problems, however. How do we know our brass has the same hardness and thickness, even if it's the same brand as the factory load we compare it to? And because brass varies in hardness and thickness, there's no way to estimate PSI by the method. (Well, actually you can, but you need to know the PSI of the load. Then you can compare brass expansion of fired cases from the same lot, and come up with a reasonable guess. But if you have some way of measuring PSI in the first place, why bother?)

I ran some experiments a few years ago, using various versions of measuring brass expansion, then had the handloads developed with those methods pressure-tested at a professional lab. I couldn't find any correlation. Using a chronograph to compare handloads with pressure-tested loads using the same powder and bullet proved far more accurate.

After reading all this, I am happy to have 8+ pounds of H4350, a few thousand primers, dozens of bags/boxes of Noslers and I don't have to re-invent the wheel.
Interesting reading though.

Geez you guys can be woosies.
I'm sure there is a formula that will prove 2950 w/a 30-06/180 is no problem.
The formula can be figured out backwards from just a few years ago when it was proven over and over again that 3500fps w/180 bullets were completely safe in the 300 rum!!
(Yes my version of night humor at work)

------It's the method Ken Waters used, comparing web expansion to that of factory rounds.
What is a "factory round"?

------I don't have to re-invent the wheel.
And where is the sport in that?
Just kidding.

As always, when reloading proceed with caution whatever your methods/procedures are. Each gun is different.
I do like R17. It has been good for me.
jmho
Tim

I've been able to get RE 17 here lately, so I've been using it quite a bit. it seems to do a good job for me in the 7mm-08, .338 WM and .375 AI. it seems to do about as good (but not way better than) the other 'good powders' in these cartridges. i'll keep using it even when the panic subsides.

Okay all this talk of RL-17 & 30-06, since I am planning a WT hunt to Alberta in Nov., does anyone have a good RL-17 load with 165/168 Nosler Bal. Tip or anything close to that. Thanks

This begs the question then are the WSMs and other magnums loaded to their full potential? If the 30-06 can get magnum velocity and stay under 65,000 psi, are the WSMs with more case capacity loaded to 65,000 psi or anywhere near it?

At what point does someone chime in with the "RL temp sensitivity" problems?

Very highly sensitive..........would never consider using above 50F or below 50F.

Seriously, I have tried it in several cartridges & saw no real advantages of other stuff, so I am not actively using it in anything.........still have a partial can & will use it up in an emergency or for non-hunting purposes, as it is OK, just not dramatically better than anything else.

MM

This spring one of the most respected reloaders/posters over at the nosler forum worked up a load in his marlin 3006 w/22" barrel.
He spent a bunch of time measuring lots of web expansion and wound up pushing a 165 bullet to 3020 and thought he was safe.
Quick load said no way he could be under 67k pressure.
He had a buddy with a pressure trace system who apparently knows how to use it. They hooked it up to his gun and the result was he was running 64k.
The Powder......good old boring win 760.
He did decide though to back it down for the same thinking many have here. He knew field conditions wouldn't always match the temps and conditions he was testing in.
Thats a pretty phenominal velocity....I've never seen a "superperformance" or "hypervelocity" factory load match that in reality....only in print on the box.

I wonder if this topic will give those who critized Sam Fadala for pushing his 30-06 to the 29s with 180gs something to think about?

kraky,

That's because ALL .30-06 factory loads are still 60,000 psi or less. Usually they're a little less, 58-59,000, to allow for variations.

Though I still have a box or so of the old Federal Trophy Bonded .30-06 load, I believe called High Energy, that get 2940 fps from the 24" barrel of my NULA, and pretty decant accuracy as well.

Absent the pressure testing equipment, I'm reluctant to push too hard.......about 2875-2900 with 165's & 2800 with 180's, both with H-4350 in a 24" barrel is as far as I am comfortable with going to.

MM

Note in the links posted earlier showed testing of Federal's 180gr High Energy load:
2891 fps @ 59,800 PSI

the loads had 68.0gr of "unknown" powder.

John - you note that if you pile enough H4350 into the case to match the pressure given by RL17, you will have similar velocity. Isn't the nice thing about RL17 that it has that "4350" burn rate, but in a much denser powder? Could you even fit that much H4350 into the case?

I was told by a former employee of one of the high energy ammo offerers that his company had developed a tool to compress powder as it was loaded into the shells.
I would guess there are powders that accept compressing w/o changing burning properties or having the coatings and kernals crumble. I would guess the wrong powders would not make for a good outcome.

Well I should have read all of the data in the links before I asked John a question. They give the following information:

180gr TSX

H4350 2794fps @ 65,200 PSI
RL17 2871fps @ 65,400 PSI

Fairly close pressure, fairly close velocity. I haven't tried these loads, nor do I intend to as they seem a bit warm.

Arac,

RL-17's granules are about the same length as H4350's, but a little bit thinner, so there isn't a vast difference in density.

The difference is supposed to be how much further down the bore it takes all of a charge of RL-17 to burn, making the pressure curve less steep. Dunno about that, but it's a double-based powder, which means it contains a little nitroglycerin, so contains a little more energy per grain than single-based powders such as H4350. But all the Reloder powders are double-based, so that's nothing new.

R17 is not magic but I have gotten good velocity and accuracy in several short mags. Especially with heavier bullets. As far as temp sensitivity it's not as good as some but not as bad as some of the ball powders. As for the 06 it's hard to beat the 4350 powders.

Yes, with respect to the 4350 powders, they sure seem to be good. I've only used IMR4350 - in .30-06 AI and 7mm RM- but I think I'm going to try and find some H4350. It really looks like one of the better "all-around" powders.

I've also had good results in 2 different 06's with W760. A lot offolks don't like the ball powders. I wound up trying it because I was out of 4350 and found some 760. Getting right at 3000 fps with 150's and good accuracy. My sons remington is consistently shooting 3/4" groups. Not bad for an out the box Remmy.