I've been trying to develop a load for 2 30-06 rifles, one is a Cooper 54 and the other is a Savage American Classic. I haven't been able to find a load that either rifle shoots well and it seems like I'm chasing my tail. MuleDeer has mentioned that trying different primers can make a difference but when is the appropriate time during load development to try a different primer? I've never had any issues developing a load for any of my other rifles and am finding this quite frustrating.
Thanks for any suggestions

That can be an art, in and of itself.

What powders and primers are you using now, and what are your results?

With all the hoopla over the Hodgdon Extreme powders I had to try them out it calibres that I hunt with. With H-4831 in a .270 Winchester, things were okay, but the volume of black soot that came out of the empty brass did not please me. With H-4350 in a 30:06, I could not get this powder to shoot unless it was over maximum. I tried Remington 9 1\2 magnum rifle primers in the .270 Winchester( the old one) and the 30:06, and the accuracy improved. The large volumes of soot disappeared as well.

I remember a comprehensive write up about the .308 Winchester in Rifle magazine and the author had his best groups with CCI 250 caps and Varget. He tried every commercially available primer known to man. Others might disagree, but I find these newer generation Hodgdon powders work the best at high pressures. 60 000 psi or higher. I would not use them in low pressure rounds like Nitro Express rounds, or in a round like the .416 Rigby that works in the mid 40 000 psi range. The soot build up would be a real problem.

I have a .308 Winchester in an old Huskvarna that I load for with Remington cases, 150 grain Speer Grand Slam bullets, Federal 210 match primers, and 44 grains of H-4895 powder. The soot that pours out of the empty cases is making me wonder about what I can change to remedy this. These Hodgdon Extreme powders are not as clean burning as other comparable powders. Ram Shot powders being the cleanest burning powders that I have seen so far. Vihta Vuori are very clean burning as well.

I've tried IMR 4064, RL 19 and IMR 4350 mostly with 150 gr bullets. I just started playing with the 165's this weekend. Ive been using CCI large rifle primers.

Have you tried 52 grains (or a few tenths more) of 4064 under a 150, particularly a Sierra or a Ballistic Tip?

Since you mentioned two different rifles, have you used different scopes on them?

Do you know if you're loading bananas or straight cartridges?

Primers are the least expensive component. If you are not getting the results you want, just switch brands.

Just highlighting something for clarification - have you found good loads for other .30-06's with this particular set of dies or are these the first two rifles you've loaded for with them.

Reason for asking is that you are using three of the most common .30-06 appropriate powders around with a milder primer which usually helps to promote accuracy, and loading for at least one rifle with a great rep for accuracy. I'd check for some "gross" cause like a large amount of runout as mathman asked before trying to fine tune things by switching primers.

After reading MD's article on loading straight ammo that's the very first thing I check for any load development. If it ain't straight then nothing is going to fix that. Since you're having this trouble with two different rifles with standard components, it seems the common denominator would be the dies or die setup. You can check that the sizing die isn't pulling the necks out of alignment and that the seater is seating the bullets straight and if one of those is problematic then try correcting that situation first.


If you haven't read it I'd highly recommend this article - it helped me cut through a bunch of voodoo and hoodoo that I'd been chasing for decades.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/factors_in_accuracy_two.html

What did Cooper use to test the rifle? 168 Matchking with what powder? Use the powder and a 168 Nosler BT to duplicate possibly?

I would personally try H414 and Hornady 165 BTSP! If an 06 won't shoot 4350 I go straight to H414!

I usually find the load development that shoots the best to accuracy then switch primers to see if that helps any further.

Snuzem, have you checked the loaded ammo for runout? I'm guessing its a possibility you may be having an alignment issue with your dies. Or an expander ball issue.

If you don't have a runout gauge just role ammo across a mirror and look closely for wobble. Let us know what you find.

Shod

Mathman, I used the RCBS Case Master to check for runout.i have a Zeiss on the Cooper and a Leupold on the Savage
Here are some pics of the results with IMR 4064 with 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips
Esox, I called Cooper and they used 45 gr IMR 4064 with 168 gr SMK.

Pics above were with the Copper.

Snuzem, heck man I would get some 168 Nosler Ballistic Tips and TTSX load them up with IMR 4064. I usually load 5 groups of 3 for a total of 15 rounds. I can usually find out what the rifle likes from that. I then load up another 5 or more and retest it. Your rifle doesn't like the lighter bullet and or the higher powder charge, is what I see? Both those bullets should do most of what you want?

Esox, I just stated working with 165 NBT and 165 Sierra GameKing Hollow point boat tail this weekend. 5 shot groups were close to 2"; the NBT had a little bit of a tighter group. Initial loads were with IMR 4350. 4064 is next up.

You have two 30-06 rifles with two different scopes. Runout isn't an issue. You're using 4064 with 150's and 4350 with 165's and you can't get accuracy.

Something isn't right.

My Cooper was a finicky rifle! I had fits getting that thing to shoot. When I did find the "magic" load that was about the only thing it would fire.

When using Nosler I have found out that seating depth is very finicky, so be prepared to make some loads with different seating depths if you happen to find a decent powder charge giving indications of accuracy. Good luck.

Mathman,My thoughts as well. Someone mentioned the dies, I've used Forster and RCBS dies. i wondered if the issue might be the shooter( me), but I've had a friend of mine that shoots well shoot a few rounds and he is getting the same results. I've tried factory ammo( Federal premium NBTs and Gamekings in 150 and 165s). They are shooting about the same as my handloads

Esox, I've only tried the loads seated at .03" off the lands, I haven't tried changing seating depth yet...

I have found the biggest change to a gun's accuracy was always powder. I seldom change primers unless I am grasping at straws. 4350 out of your '06 should shoot though.

The Nosler BT in my experience will require some seating depth experimenting for it to shoot it's best.

I can't say that I've had any changes in accuracy by screwing around with primers. I only use Federal 210's and 215's in my 300 WM. In my 06 I use 57 grns of IMR-4350 with 165 grn Nosler BT's. I only have the Nosler's just kissing the lands on all my handloads. I have to say that I'm with mathman here and that something else is going on besides the primer choice. This also might be the first time I've heard a complaint about a Cooper not shooting. Don't rule out a scope being bad as I've seen brand new scopes that were bad right out of the gate.

I usually don't mess with primers much either but every rifle is unique.

No my 1 and only Cooper gave me issues. I sent it back to Cooper not once but twice! I was so impressed with their customer service that I will be purchasing another down the road so glad that they are willing to back their product!

I had tried several different combinations with the Cooper and discovered that it needed 4-6 fouling shots before it "settled" for the nice neat groups. I don't clean it now until I have 40-50 shots down the tube and that is a "light"cleaning at that.

I duplicated the SMK load they sent using a 130 Speer BTSP and IMR 4064 for the 7mm-08.

I then decided I "needed" a 140 grain bullet to shoot and took a Barnes TTSX. The IMR 4064 that was shooting the 130's into bugholes at 100 yards was shooting 1.5-2.0 inches at 100 with the 140 TTSX. I tried several powders and decided to try H414 on a whim with the 140 TTSX, and I was .5 or less at max powder charge with the H414! I was a happy reloader but to get there was quite frustrating.

There are sorts of possibilities:

I have experienced drastically different results by changing primers, but so far only with spherical powders.

It is possible for both scopes to be bad, and scopes are always among my first suspects with accuracy problems. A guy on the Campfire was having terrible luck with, as I recall, 165's and H4350, and I suggested changing the scope, which was brand new. He resisted, because it was brand now, but eventually caved and tried another scope. The results were equally bad. A few weeks later he e-mailed me and said he'd tried a THIRD scope and the rifle started shooting under 3/4"!

Most of today's slower-burning rifle powders shoot better at maximum pressures, or even slightly over listed max. Every powder is designed to burn best within a certain pressure range.

If the brass has been previously fired, and the number of firings differs, then neck tension will vary and accuracy can as well.

I've seen dramatic differences with stick powders as well. In one instance my .338 was shooting 1" groups with H4350 and WMRP primers. One day I grabbed the Fed 215's instead, and my groups opened up to 3". Once I switched back, groups returned to 1".

So, they can make a difference.

snuzem, what primers are you currently using with the 4350?

Would have to agree. Ran into a similar situation with some 8208.

Good to know abt the 8208.

What's your been liking?

I've seen primers make a difference as Mule Deer mentioned with spherical powders and aside from that changing primers has always netted minor differences for me.

As Mule Deer stated I'd start by changing both scopes and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if its the culprit on at least one of the rifles.

I'm definitely suspect that there's more going on than every load you've tried was a terrible combination.

Shod

RDFinn, I agree with you about not hearing of a Cooper not shooting. My Cooper 54 in 7-08 shoots really well. I had another 52 in 30-06 that shot really well but a friend of mine wanted it really badly so I sold it to him( shouldn't have done that). I'll be changing the scope on the Cooper Before I go back to the range. Wil post results.
Thanks for everyone's input
Scott

I switch primers as part of my normal routine.

My Cooper 30-06 shoots best with 165-168 bullets and 4064, and acceptably with just about everything else. Acceptably wasn't 1/2" but it is a hunting rifle.

A few things to check that won't cost anything. Check the parallax in both scopes with the ole head bob test. If you've got roaming crosshairs anything you do is a waste of time. In some cases (Leupold mostly) you're better off working up loads at 200 than 100. The scopes are often closer to parallax free at 200.

I've got two Cooper rifles and both had an extractor that pressed against the inside of the receiver ring when there was a case/cartridge in the chamber and it was worse as pressure went up. It just about drove me crazy because I would just be getting the pressure up high enough to shoot and the bolt would start binding in the receiver, acting like high pressure when old proven loads and the chronograph said otherwise. The bolt handle would lift normally, but pulling it back took a good tug to get it moving. That one took longer to spot than it should have, but nobodys perfect. The quick check is to mark the outside of the extractor with a sharpy and fire a few rounds. If its dragging that's your problem. If it isn't it never cost you anything to check.

Many scopes have a degree of reticle float. It may not be "broken" by many people's standards but you'll never get 1/2 MOA out of a 1 1/4 scope except by fluke. If you got a very accurate varmint rifle pull the scope off it and use that for a test control.