I was in the process of building a lightweight 300 WSM, but I just found a SS Tikka /06 for a steal. I was planning this as a sheep rifle for bear country. To the point.

Can I reasonably expect to SAFELY hit 2700-2800 with the 200 accubond? If so, what powder should I try? Any first hand experience? I've seen reports of guys running 208 Amax with RL 17 up to 2800, but that was 4 grains over max for RL 22 in nosler a manual (they don't list 17).

The way I see it, if I can get at least 2700 I'm not giving up anything meanigdul to the WSM. I'm still impacting at 2600 fps to 75 yards and my max is still ~650 with the AB.

I've never tried it. But I own 30-06 and 300 WSM and have played all the mental games and looked at all of the possible load combinations. As near as I can determine the guys who are getting those numbers with a 30-06 are using at least 26" barrels and loads hotter than I'm comfortable with.

The 300 WSM is going to be at least 150-200 fps faster with a 24" barrel and with sane load levels. You might get the 30-06 within 100 fps, but not with loads I'd trust.



Nosler shows 2944 fps from the 300 WSM, and 2688 fps for the 30-06 with RL-22 and 200 gr Accubonds. I think 256 fps is meaningful. Even if you reached 2700 fps, you'd still be 244 fps behind the 300 WSM.

Is it something I need, is it worth the added recoil and reduced magazine capacity? Those are questions I often ask myself.

The quoted length was 22.5" on those Amax velocities. I trust the guy as he's a frequent contributor on multiple sites. I just wanted to see if others got it or if it was just a crazy fast 1 off barrel.

When I say not giving up much meaningful, I just meant that I feel both would handle a bear on the off chance it I get charged. And, the AB is still good to 650 yards. I won't be shooting past that with a lightweight backpack rifle.

Either way, I end up with a new rifle, so it's win win

I'm also new to re-loading, so I'm not sure this is something I should even be considering unless I can get a buddy to go with me to read the pressure signs.

I would strongly suggest you stick with the manual recommendations.

A 200 grain bullet going 2500fps is plenty. I wouldn't get caught up on velocity as I would accuracy.

Make sure your shooting skills are up to par as well for a 650 yard shot?

A 180 grain bullet like the Hornady BTSP may be another option for you?
Read, read, and read some more on reloading! Ask plenty of questions. LEE ABC of Reloading is a good start.

Be safe.

When I had a Savage 30-06 it was very accurate with Hodgdon's max load listed on line of H 4350 with the 200 gr AB which clocked at 2600 fps. Even at 2600 fps it carries a lot of energy out there. With the right powder it could get around 2700 fps safely.

Yep. The SAAMI maximum pressure for the .30-06 is only 60,000 PSI because of old guns, but even with SAAMI-pressure H4831SC I've gotten 2675 with 200's in some 22" barrels. There's no real reason not to push the SAAMI limit a little.

In the only .30-06 I own right now, a NULA with a 24" barrel, 59.0 grains of H4831SC gets around 2690 with the 200 Partition. Haven't tried the 200 AB with the same load.

It would be interesting to see if there would be much difference between the 200 gr PT and AB with the same load. Either of them are among the best when it comes to heavy game bullets in a 30 cal.

Anyone try the 200gr Accubond in the Ruger American at all?

I think you missed my point on the 650. I was just saying that even 650 is more than enough range for me.

I'm not too worried about the energy way out there. If I'm shooting at range, the target will be sheep/goats/cpx2 types. The only reason I'm going with a 200 AB is the off chance of a bear encounter up close.

My main objective is a 400-500 yard bullet that will handle the off bear.

We can close this down .... the delta bravo sold the rifle out from under me. Looks like I'll be building the Savage 300 WSM now.

~54.8grs of RL 17 will put you just under 60,000 psi on a 70 degree day for just under 2700fps (ref QL). I load 53.5 to 54 gr and that puts me right on an accuracy node. This bullet is devastating on large big game, shots MOA to 500+ yards and normally get ~20" groups at 1000yds. Steps the '06 up a couple more notches than your daddy's.

If you are looking to shoot in the 5-600 yard range, this will work out better for you anyways.

Put a 26" tube on the WSM, drop back to a quality 180gr bullet, and you will be close to 3200 with lower pressures.


I think it will server you better all around.

Axtell,

20" groups at 1000 yards! And 10 fps more than with H4831. Wow, I'm impressed!

Have you tried that RL-17 load in cold weather? You might be less impressed with it.

For your information, for shooting out to 500 yards there's precious little difference in trajectory or wind-drift between the 200 Partition and 200 AccuBond. This is because the 200 Partition has a BC that surprises many people. And I'm not talking about listed BC, but BC from actual range tests by Bryan Litz.

And neither is what I'd want to hit stuff at 1K.

Of course I've no desire to kill stuff at 1k and I can't think of much that I'd not hunt with a 200gr Partition in an 06.

Exactly.

I have killed a few North American big game animals with the 200 Partition from the .30-06 using H4831, most of them taken long before QuickLoad, RL-17 and the 200 AccuBond existed, and have found the load works very well on everything from pronghorns up through elk. If that makes me obsolete, so be it--but the load never "failed" because it wasn't computer calculated, used the latest magic powder, and the bullet lacked a plastic tip.

Did run the numbers through the Berger ballistics program, however, and found the 200 AB does shoot 1" flatter than the Partition at 500, and drifts 2" less in a 10-mph wind. Next time I decide to shoot prairie dogs with a 30-06 just might have to try some AB's. Otherwise I don't think it will make any noticeable difference.

Do you have a link to Litz's analysis of the 200 PT. I'd much rather run that in bear country, but I was worried it gave up a bit more downrange to the AB. The PT would also be much more accommodating in a 300 WSM case.

1" drop and 2" drift is nothing.

I don't like the idea of trying to get on a bear quickly with a 26" tube. 500 yards is my max for main quarry, but I want to make sure I don't have a cannon that is not balanced. This is a lightweight backpack rig.

Well, they are only 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups go to 30" @ 1000. These groups were shot pretty consistently over the last 3 years at club fun shoots.These are really poor groups compared to others, but shot with my regular hunting rifle, 6x scope and hunting loads.Specialized rigs within the rules, <10.5 lbs, and scope set at 9x or less for the 3 shot, look for 3 shots in the 3"zone and 5 shot <6". A custom 6mm Dasher with NF scopes seem to be the preferred for this activity.
RL- 17 'I've heard' is temperature sensitive as compared to say H4350. In the field my shots usually come at less than 200 yards so I have not noticed any ill effects. The Accubond seems more devastating compared to other bullets.
I do realize that the 200gr Partition is a real 'sleeper' in the 30 caliber line up and do agree that the Partition at <500 yds
gives up very little to the Accubond.

tarheelpower,

Don't have a link but it's in his book BALLISTIC PERFORMANCE OF RIFLE BULLETS, which contains the tested results of a pile of bullets from .224 to .338 in diameter. The G7 BC for the 200 Partition is .246 and for the 200 AB is .275 at 2500-3000 fps, the velocity range we’re talking about. I ran the numbers for 35 degrees F. at 4000 feet above sea level, which is probably average for fall hunting here in Montana. It can get colder but also higher!

But I also wouldn’t worry much about using the AccuBond in bear country. I’ve tested it in dry newspaper, one of the tougher tests of expanding bullets, and very similar to what happens when heavy bone is hit. Penetration and weight retention is very similar to the 200 Partition.

One thing I have noticed in several rifles, however, is Partitions often out-shoot AccuBonds. Have seen that numerous times. Of course, that doesn’t matter in a close encounter with a bear, but if on-game performance is similar I tend to choose whichever bullet is more accurate.

Axtell,

That’s usually about the ratio between 3-shot and 5-shot groups at any range.

I have used the 200 Accubond some, and it’s a fine bullet. But have been using the 200 Partition with excellent results for far longer, so tend to use it more, particularly when it shoots a little better!

John,

That's the load I've used in a old Mark X with great results and speeds similar to what you noted. I may have been lead to that combo from your writings.

For giggles I ran that load through QL just to see where it stood on the analytical side and sure enough it is exactly as you stated...slightly higher than SAAMI but still below 65 ksi with a velocity near to your numbers; nothing earth-shattering here other than this is one case where it seems to do OK and I have some empirical data for compaison. I'm an empirical guy but like to mess around with QL as a curiosity if anything.

Thanks for your input and feedback on the 200 partition.




Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler PART SP 35626
Useable Case Capaci: 57.954 grain H2O = 3.763 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.300 inch = 83.82 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4831 SC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 87 47.20 2125 2004 31197 7357 85.1 1.619
-18.0 90 48.38 2180 2111 33425 7614 86.5 1.573
-16.0 92 49.56 2237 2222 35823 7866 87.9 1.528
-14.0 94 50.74 2293 2336 38409 8112 89.3 1.481
-12.0 96 51.92 2351 2454 41202 8350 90.5 1.433
-10.0 98 53.10 2408 2575 44220 8579 91.7 1.387
-08.0 101 54.28 2466 2701 47487 8799 92.9 1.342
-06.0 103 55.46 2524 2830 51026 9007 93.9 1.299 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 105 56.64 2583 2962 54874 9203 94.9 1.258 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 107 57.82 2641 3099 59058 9386 95.8 1.218 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 109 59.00 2701 3239 63620 9555 96.6 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 111 60.18 2760 3382 68605 9708 97.4 1.141 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 114 61.36 2819 3530 74067 9843 98.0 1.104 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 116 62.54 2879 3681 80066 9961 98.6 1.069 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 118 63.72 2939 3836 86681 10059 99.1 1.035 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 120 64.90 2999 3995 93990 10136 99.5 1.001 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Could it be that the distribution of lead with in the confines of the bullets shape produce better results with the Partition at near (normal hunting) ranges? The Accubond has a center of gravity (because of the basically hollow front portion) more rearward than the Partition. After a couple decades with 'X' bullet I now use the Accubond or Partition for hunting.

That could be part of the reason. Another possible reason is that often the long plastic tip sometimes doesn't allow AccuBonds to be seated as close to the lands, due to magazine length.

I think the 200 AB is a good bullet choice, as is the 200 NP I used for decades before the AB was even a glimmer in old man Nosler's eye.

But... I wouldn't choose a 300 WSM Custom Savage for what you want to do. There's a big difference in feeding and bolt operation between a 30-06 and 300 WSM, and to compound that issue, if you've never owned one, the Savage action is not really smooth feeding, and does not inspire confidence in an urgent situation.

THe Savage action was originally designed to be as cheap as possible to manufacture, and while that's great for the manufacturer, such as it is I wouldn't deem it ready for prime time.

For the same money, or likely less money, I would pick up a 30-06 Win M70 or MRC or even a Montana, and have the added benefit of a reliable, slick feeding rifle with 2 more rounds in the mag for backup...just in case.

A M70 in 30-06 with a 200 gr Partition is already loaded for bear, so to speak, or mostly anything one might encounter. There is no advantage on target to the WSM compared to a fully loaded-up '06 under 500 yards, and little beyond that.

Under 500 yards, I would also consider the 150 or 165 GMX bullet to up the ante a notch. The GMX is often under-appreciated considering it's performance values of expansion and penetration.

I'd run any of those same bullets in a 308, and feel confident in what I was carrying.

The 300 WSM in one of those rifles is fine, but I'd still rather have those 2 extra rounds in the mag.

I have a couple Savages. I've had them worked, but they feed very smooth. I kicked around a Montana, but I don't feel like rolling the dice for that kind of money.

I've been back and forth in my head as to the pros and cons of extra power of the WSM vs the extra capacity in /06.

I've been wanting to try a Tikka. I may look at their superlite in /06 or split the diference with a win mag.

Have you noticed more velocity potential with the PT?

In some rifles, maybe. Depending on magazine and throat length, there's sometimes more powder room available in the case with Partitions, without crunching the powder a lot.

I've been wanting to try a Tikka. I may look at their superlite in /06 or split the diference with a win mag.


Once you go Tikka there will be no coming back if accuracy/precision are the criteria, all my Rem 700's are gone and Tikka's take their place.

That's def part. I like the smooth action and 70 degree bolt lift. I'm a savage guy now, so accuracy might be tough to top.

I can't think of a better endorsement for the 30-06 and heavy bullets (200 NPT or NAB) than JB's and Phil's experiences.

I just wonder how the 208 AMAX compares.

ya want max velocity with heavier bullets in an 06, then 4831 SC is your friend...

as quoted to me by one of the ballisticians at Nosler.. you can't get enough 4831 SC into an 06 case to exceed SAAMI pressure specs..

Agreed .... It will really come down to what platform/caliber I get a good deal on. I have the donor for 300 WSM, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled for another /06 to lighten up. Or, I could always restock/rescope my current /06 since it has already been re-worked.

I would not hesitate to use 208 Amax if I was not planning to be in bear country. I can't get warm and fuzzy on Amax/Berger style bullets when bears are around.

The new Nosler 190gr AB could be easily pushed to 2700-2800 .640 G1 is pretty slick.

30 Caliber 190 Grain
AccuBond Long Range Bullet
Part# 58456
Spitzer Point

G1 Ballistic Coefficient 0.640
G7 Ballistic Coefficient 0.325

I dont have a good feeling on the AB LR for a bear encounter up close. They're not designed like the orig AB. They're not as stout (based on shooter accounts and talking to Nosler). The increase in BC really does not come into it's own until 500-600. Considering that's my max, I'd prefer the standard AB or PT.

Just for comp sake since you folks have lots of experience with the /06, how does a 165 TTSX compare to the 200 Partition/Accubond?

The 165 TTSX is a great bullet, as any other monometal plastic-tip would be, whether a Hornady GMX or Nosler E-Tip.

The only reservation I have about monometal bullets is a few instances where they didn't expand the way they should. I'm not talking about losing petals (which in my experience makes no perceivable difference at all in killing power), but failure to expand to some degree, which naturally reduces tissue damage and hence killing power. Have never seen a 200 Partition fail to expand in 35+ years of using them, even on whitetail or pronghorn does, and never seen one fail to penetrate sufficiently even on angling shots through heavy bone on bull elk.

I think that answers my curiosity. Considering the reason for having this discussion, 200 PT will be my choice. I decided to just give my current 30/06 a make over and use it. I'm young enough I don't think the extra 1 pound or so will make a difference - for now. I'd rather put that extra $2 grand or so toward the hunt itself rather than in a new gun that will require new dies, loads, everything.

the federal high energy load for 30-06 ( TT4 ) with the 180 bonded bear claw gets 2880 fps. a tough bullet with a high BC too. all the fed high energy loads I have Chrono'd came in higher than that too. have not loaded for the 300 wsm ; but superperformance powder shows almost 200 fps higher than any other powder from the data on the Hogdon site.

I'm not familiar with Hogdens site, but I didn't see it lit superfoance for anything over 165gr

a 165 partition at 3273. compare that to any you are considering.

What powder and charge are you using to get that velocity in an '06? Sounds a little optimistic to me; Nosler's fastest with the 165 Partition is right at 3000fps.

not a 30-06 load. 300 wsm load off the hogdon site.... 72.0 superperformance 165 nosler partition. 3273 fps. that is more than the 300 win mag gets.

tarheel- the bear load is for defense? you are not hunting them on the same trip right... for dall sheep? with a 30-06 i would shoot what ever grouped the best at distance. probably a 168cbt.

RL17 works well for me with the 200 gr Accubond in a Steyr which has a barrel close to 24"

It would take a lot of effort to build a gunas nice as and for the same money as a tikka .30-06. And there is plenty of them around. I have one in .300wm and it is perfect for my needs.

Correct. Either way, I plan to use the 200 PT/AB load for the hunt as well. They perform fine on paper out to 500-600 yards which is plenty. I'll likely work up a 165 AB/TTSX load to have as well for future use.

I have a 5# jug. That is on my list. I'd be happy with ~2700ish.

I agree. They will probably be my next purchase. I wish I had a sportmans warehouse near me. The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking a LW SAVGE WSM would just be a money sink. I'd end up with $1300 min. I can get a superlite for $700, or I can just live with my normal weight savage 30/06.

How does recoil compare with the heavies in the /06? The more I look at the 30/06, the more I think I don't even need to worry about an additional gun.

Looking at a straight deer/sheep load, I was considering a 168 Berger at around 3000 FPS. When I run the numbers, recoil looks like this:


Load One Load Two
Bullet weight in grains 168 200
Velocity in fps 3002 2688
Powder charge in grains 63 58
Weight of firearm in lbs 9 9

Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec) 3.36 3.41
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps) 12.01 12.22
Free recoil energy in (ft/lbs) 20.14 20.85


That seems pretty much identical to me. Is that the reality? I always thought the 200 PT would be noticeably stouter that a 165 class bullet?

my handloads with a 168 are 2825 fps from a 22" , 6.25 lb rem 700 mtn rifle. with a 2.5-8x36 the rifle is very light. recoil is noticeable. i have shot the 200's at 2625. recoil with a 200 partition is quite a bit more. also it is very hard to get decent groups with the partition . it is my favorite hunting bullet. for moose and bear accuracy of the 200 partition good enough. maybe a 200 ab is the answer.

Thanks for the input. I'm paper it looks close, but reality is much stouter it seems like I thought.

not that many 30-06 loads get 3002 fps with a 168 gr bullet. that has to kick quite a bit too. at least in my mtn rifle.

If bears are even remotely a concern (or any other defensive issue), I want no ammo which is not utterly reliable. That includes rounds which might be sized “slightly snug”, bullets seated to “kiss”, loads which don’t readily drop free when extracting. Those would be my focus (along with getting the load to shoot as well as you want it to for the intended quarry.)