can anyone give me thier input on which to purchase for coyote/bobcat/fox hunting. i currently have a 25-06 browning a-bolt and i am tearing them up bad with the 85 gr. silvertip. i want a 22 cal. centerfire, and these are the two which interest me. all camments welcome-pro's and con's. thanks in advance.

p.s. i am brand new to this web site, but by reviewing the material posted, it seems to be very beneficial. if i post this incorrectly, please forgive me.








THE BEST IS BARELY GOOD ENOUGH WHEN IT COMES TO OUR HUNTING EQUIPMENT. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm a pretty loyal Swift follower and think it to be rather exceptional.

While I'm pretty hip on the various short/fat themes the WSSM's aren't amongst them.

I believe it an easy task to procure an amazingly accurate Swift. I've never had one that didn't dazzle in that department and it makes alotta juice. The Swift makes hitting pretty easy and that don't take long to get used to.

Welcome aboard and rest assured it is pretty difficult to make an incorrect Post in these parts. This particular Board doesn't see the traffic that some of the others enjoy and you may get more help via the "Rifles" Board.

Enjoy...............

I'd take a hard look at the old Swift as well... The newbies on the block need to season with the guinea pigs a while before I'll give them too much consideration. The Swift has endured for decades in spite of the fact that many untrue rumors still circulate. (They don't cook barrels any faster than any other quick varminter out there).

This said, I believe that Browning halted production of their .223 WSSM's until a better barrel lining was procured. I did hear that their throats were toasting out really early. But I should admit that could be a rumor as well, so don't take my word on that one...

I agree with Big Stick. You'll get better input on the "RIFLE" board. Varminting doesn't seem to be the masses forte in these parts. When the hottest topic on the varminting forum is .257 bob verses .260 you know there may be a problem... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dan

WIZARD, I'M WITH THE THOUGHT THAT YOU HAVE IN REGARDS TO NOT BEING THE FIRST GUY ON THE BLOCK TO BE TAKEN DOWN WITH THE OUTCOME OF THE 223 WSSM. I AM GOING TO HOLD OUT AND SEE WHAT COMES OF THIS THOUGH I AM/WAS VERY INTERESTED IN THE BROWNING VERSION. BUTTTTTT, I AM GOING IN THE MORNING TO ORDER MY SETUP IN WHICH I WANT(NEED). I HAVE DECIDED ON THE REMINGTON 700 VSSF-220 SWIFT, ROSSA THUMBHOLE STOCK-MADE BY BOYDS GUNSTOCK INDUSTRIES, AND THE SHEPHERD 6 X 18 X 40 VARMIT (6X18V1A). WITH A LITTLE LUCK, MAYBE I CAN BURN A FEW COYOTES.

THANKS FOR THE REPLY FROM YOU AND BIGSTICK(LORD BE WITH US FOR WHERE WE COME UP WITH SOME OF OUR USER NAMES, HOW FUNNY WITH SOME AND DON'T EVEN ASK ON OTHERS). I'M ASSUMING THAT THIS "RIFLE" IS PART OF THIS FORUM. IF NOT , CHECK BACK IN AND LET ME KNOW FOR AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, I AM NEW AT THIS. WAS JUST LOOKING FOR A LITTLE FEEDBACK REGARDING THE 220, 2 PROS-0 CONS, ------ I'M IN.
THANKS AGAIN GUYS-JAMES <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There...that oughtta help put your mind at ease,in regards to handles.

The VSSF Swift is a tough one to beat. Good call. To be blunt(forgive me,as it's the only approach I know),I'd leave the Shepherd and opt a good glass.

Of course,your mileage may vary...................

A couple of quick thoughts from me

First off, Iam with Stick in regards to the leaving the
Shepherd-I've been around a couple and I feel you can do a fair bit better.

Go with the Leo and if you want to work at long range with it have it set up with Dotz from Premier reticle. I have two set up to 700 and they work like a charm. Just range it pick your dot and let her rip.

Next off the Swift-it's a neat round-some do have some issues with how they stack the rounds in the box and hence some feeding issues. But if you're careful this should be no issue.

I just put together a rifle that is gonna be darn close to the Swift--I chambered a 700 Shorty to a 22/250 AI. From what I've heard/read (always a scarry thing) it sounds like it'll run darn close to the Swifto. It may be another round for you to consider.

Good luck

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

hey bigstick, how funny. i was just joking with the comment, so don't take it wrong. and, THAT'S A BIG TREE. you could get an acre of timber out that tree where i'm from.

that shepherd scope-- i already own one of these scopes and had excellent results. it has a dual reticle with a graduate circle system with range compensator 100 to 1000. you adjust the magnification, and the scope automatically adjust the graduates. it has an 18" stadia, and remains so at no matter what magnification you adjust it to, whatever is in that circle for what ever your yardage, it remains 18". EXAMPLE: a coyote-on avg.- is 18" from top of shoulder to feet, standing in a open field, range to which circle he fits in-this is how far out he is in yards-TOUCH THE TRIGGER.
this scope is a one shot zero, as advertised. customer service is secound to none. i have spoken to the founder, dan shepherd, and he will go into detail in assisting you with your caliber and trajectory compensation. i lost one of my adjustment caps on the scope, called to order another one. all they said was, "give me your address". i guess, since they think i'm prone, she's going to send some extras.
i know ever man for himself and for what he wants, but this truely is a nice scope with optics equal to swarovski and leopold-we have looked at these all side by side, and routinely shoot 600-800yd. targets for fun. check these out sometime- they truely are a nice piece.

again, that's a large tree. when i seen it, that movie DUECE BIGALOW, MALE JIGALO come to mind-------he goes "TREE, THAT'S A TALL B-T-H.
how humble of a name for what you refer to. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I savvied your barb and joked ya' back.

All can offer on the Shepherd is I'd like to give you a 30 second crash course with a Leica 1200LRF and a Leupie with turrets.

DAT'S happiness,at all distances and on all sizes of objects,with all loads and with nary a guess on any of it.

Bad thing is,it's fast too(grin)...................

The fellas that I hunt with out here converted to the Leupolds with Premier dotz very quickly after working with them.

Using the turrets like Stick uses will work just fine as well. To me though using my Leica and the dotz is just a quicker system. To each his own I guess.

Either way I'd not in any way take a Shepherd over one of these two systems.

Just my thoughts.....

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

I think if leaning heavily on subtention inlieu of the turret's greater precision,I'd opt the Gen2 mil reticle.

It could be argued that a Gen2 reticle working in conjunction with 1/4MOA turrets,is the best of both worlds,for the concise ability to deliver long range precision.

I'm just not hip on setting up a glass for a sole load and that is part of the beauty of that mil reticle(my opinion). She'll digest anything you toss at it in that regard and the turrets will do likewise.

A lowly standard duplex reticle subtends little and the turrets allow exact placement upon a small surface area. When serious,that's the only way to fly for me...................

Don't know how far you're shootin. But fer gettin fur, I like the 22 Hornet out to about 200yds. In a 40-45gr bullet, the velocity is low enough that the bullets don't explode. They seem to expand like a normal bullet, dump most of the energy inside, and just punch out the other side with about a 22-30 caliber hole. Never kept a bullet inside, even on 2 deer at 50 yards.

Result is 2 holes, entry does not need to be touched, exit in most cases doesn't either unless you stretch it a little in the fleshing process. I have sewed a couple that got up to about a nickel in size.

The Hornet certainly doesn't have 400yd zing. But for top dollar on fur I think it works nice. Here in Pa. it is also considered a great turkey round. I have an Anschutz and the groups are very nice.

That was another page I left unturned,until someone else brought it up.

Arguement could easily be made for the 17Rem,though my preference would be the 223AI and if not all pelts were exemplary,that'd be the price of doin' business(grin)....................

For tearing up pelts I read that light, bullets that may not exit are better. Thus a 40 gr in a .22 CF or even a .17 Remington may be best. As to the 223 WSM we are waiting for the news on it but the Swift is a proven performer and it's 1-14 twist will shoot light bullets if anything will. I think the 223 WSM will have a faster 1-10 twist as they are trying to make it a game rifle also to shoot longer bullets.

As to the Shepard scope I think that they are yesterdays technology and are supplanted by the laser rangefinder. That's where I would put my money.

As to the reticule dot's or adjusting the scope you can start with just holding over (or under) and go from there. From there do it your way but clicking off is more precise. Nothing wrong with having both systems is there?

Of the new scopes that I have bought I like the Leu 4.5 x 14 AO. Instead of getting the tactical one with the permanent big adjusting knobs I may try another but add Stoney Point ones so that I can take them off when I feel like it. A 3.5 X 10 or 3X9 might do as well as the game you metioned may require fast, close shooting.

I use the 4-14 with my 7 Mashburn Super and the 6-20 with my 6/06. Both set to 700 yards.

Using the dotz system does bring up the neccesity of using one bullet--this is no biggie to me-I am pretty set in what I use and don't find much reason to bounce around. You can of course use a bullet with BC that are very close and get away with it to a fair range especially on bigger critters.

Have you clickers ever used the Premier system?

One last thing on game I'd be willing to bet while we all can use a range finder just as quick the fella with the dotz is gonna have the coyote or whatever on the ground while someone is still clicking. Maybe,maybe not. The dotz
does work spot on to the ranges I've set so far. This is out to 700-that is far enough to me.

I'd just rather range the yote-put the dot on them and watch them do backflips. Personally I feel too many opportunities are gonna be missed while one is a clickin.

Just my thoughts......

'GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

as for holding over and whatnot-I feel that will work well on the bigger critters and out to say about 400 maybe 500 just fine. But if one is taking smaller critters (yotes-PD's and chucks) at ranges out to 700 then the dotz or tyhe clicks is gonna kick buns every time.

On second thought--guyz keep using the clicks while you are hunting with me--I'll get in more killing.......... While you is a clicking I'll be sending them into the "NOZLER NAP"

Grins..................

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

I've used alotta of subtention systems and have always found them to be compromised in their precision.



Now as far as dialing dope into a scope,it isn't an hour long saga. Much of it is mindset,fueled with common sense. Meaning setup is worthy of noting. Another portion of it,the exact load combo being employed and the predetermined zero one is working from. Fast high BC stuff,requires less dope. In the world of minutia,less dope is quicker,though that is hair splittin' in the extreme,because it takes a little while to setup an 800yd poke.



Now I'm sorta partial to the 223AI/50gr V-Max combo for [bleep] and giggles and I'd happily employ it as a Fur Flinger(pelts be damned). Zeroed at 250yds,it drops 12" at 400yds and one has the option of holding off or dialing a "whopping" 3MOA. I'm a "clicker" and rest assured I am equipped the dexterity to rotate the elevation turret less than 1/4 of a revolution to yield a dead on hold(grin). Fact is,I find that 1/4 revolution far from troubling and that modest rotation don't take anything in the way of time either.



A 700yd poke will require 14MOA and that is less than one full revolution(15MOA being a "spin"). I just timed myself and on three seperate runs with the rifle in hand,it took me less than 3 seconds to dial the 14MOA dope. Now some may find that troubling,but honestly I don't. Them is 3 seconds WELL spent,because one can then hold on the Gnat's Ass. That glass is a lowly Leupie 3.5-10x 40mm wearing the sillywet turret(my favorite).



Practice builds familiarity and I'm bent on being familiar with my rifles. That most wear an elevation turret is no conincidence. I see it as a high precision option,that remains to be tapped as per whim/situations dictate.



I've found that my eye naturally gravitates to the center of my glass and engaging a target via the crosshair intersection is the fastest for me. The subtention systems,skew that natural alignment(for me). So personally,I've found it much faster to incorporate the crosshair intersection as my aiming point and doping the scope to facilitate that is fastest/bestest/precisionest(Tech Terms all). Hell....some dig the Horus but I ain't one.



I'd be curious to Drag Race a dot toter from a standing position,to a lased target beyond zero range and see what is "given up" in terms of speed and precision to a lumbering clicker(moi),while both are enroute to the ground to formulate a field rest. A subtle hint would be that the dope would be in the scope,before my belly were on terra firma and despite my modest abilities,I believe I could hold my own(grin).



Would be fun if we could all hook up and play show and tell....................

Yeah it would be fun for all to get together-



I do imagine Stick that people like you and I would show up but, that the BS'ers would not show up much. These would be the ones with lots of book time-computer time-and way too many toys to play the game seriously. People with booksmart and puters smart as opposed to hill smarts would get tossed out fo the gym quickly.



I know a lot of gunners who think they are the [bleep]-



when it comes time to kill coyotes-like there it is-range it kill it now-they just can't get it done. The need too much time,and or they do not know there stuff. In fact most of the people I am exposed to know the talk but very few can walk the talk.



Soo to get us all together-and do some drag racing would be tits up fun..



Get us all out on the hill-and see what happens when it is do it now time.



I do quite a bit of guiding and see about allthe gadgets and equipment one could imagine. What I like to see is people that can hit the turf and get off the shot when they hit the ground-many times the ground we hit is not real flat so one hand for

a rifle and one for help in hitting the ground is very helpful. Wouldn't want to be turning any turrets in a lot of that country--plus my

knees are too darn old for that.........grins.



At any rate I do feel there is a lot of ways to skin a cat-and I do feel it behoves us all to be open to new ways... What works for me does not work for a lot of others and vice versa. I would gladly be a clicker for PD's and Chucks-but when it comes to Yotes and big game I want to do it now and I want my hunters to be able to do it now. Darn few are gonna be able to use the clicker system as quickly and efficiently as the dotz. Stick may well be one of the fellas that can-I don't know I've never scene him shoot.

I do know a fella that can use it quickly, he is from Utah and he is one of the best. Aside from that I know of no hunter out there that uses the click sytem-I do know plenty of them that use the Dotz. I would imagine as my world is fairly small.



At least that is my HUMBLE opinion..



Whether you are a clicker or a Shepherd guy a hold over fella or a dotz fella -just please get to the hill as much as you can.



"GET TO THE HILL"





Dog



So Stick have you or have you not used the Premier dotz system?

Not Premiere's version,but the Lee system of dots calibrated to grant a certain zero. Subtention is largely all the same in application(when used without turrets). You is either looking under or over the crosshair intersection to grant a hold off guesstimate.

Some guys like to zero a mil reticle with the first mil above the crosswire intersection. That interests me none too.

Then there are the arguements pro and con for the first and second focal planes,when utilizing subtention.

Pards and I here have been contemplating a crosswire setup akin to the Gen2,excepting it is only on the horizontal wire. That to allow a mil holdoff for windage,while dialing dope for height.

The trouble with subtention systems(excepting the Horus,which is wayyyyyy to [bleep] busy for my tastes),is that when holding off for wind,you is in never-never land with no hard reticle to hold upon.

With turrets,one can dope both ele and windage,or use the existing reticle(Duplex or mil,foremost in my thoughts) to use as a sort of hard windage reference. I much prefer that to guessing both height and windage,with no hard reticle reference via the subtention system.

But I think the Gen2-esque horizontal wire with it's hashmarks,would grant some serious reference for windage dope,when the height were added via the erector. Mils are known values,can be broken down to tasty portions(especially via Gen2) and work well with any chambering.

Simplicity interests me and for me,nothing is as easy as pasting the crosshairs where I wish the bullet to impact and then sending it there............................

Simplicity- is something I feel most of us gravitate towards as we gain more gray wiskers. At least that is what I've done.

And that is part of what I love so much about the Premier system-you just range it, and put the dot where you want to bullet to go.

I don't have to count or move anything-I'd probably misscount in the heat of the battle.

Wind, is another issue-at the very best it is a guessing game-one only which a person has some chance by shooting a ton in it, and getting good of learning where to hold. If holding over is Kentucky windage then what is holding into it-I'd suppose we could call it central Montana windage-as shooting chucks/Pd'sand a bit of paper at long range is about the best teacher I've found to date for that. And I do believe that central Mt. is about the windiest spot in world.

There again to me, in dealing with the wind-it is not as easy as ranging-it's a guess at best-even with a windage gauge (who the heck knows what the wind is doing over there). I'll go the easy way (for me that is) I'll hold the dot where it feels right as opposed to trying to guess the wind and then put in the proper amount of clicks.

Like I said, I like you are into simplicity--to me the range and point the dot is easier than ranging-counting the clicks and then pointing. One less step to me is a more simplistic system.

I feel for most it would be-you've used your system a bit so I'd suppose it is easy for you.

For the most part I do believe that the Premier system is a heck of a lot quicker and easier and more simplistic. And it is something that is very quick to for people to pick up and use.

Just my thouhts.....

Say were what did we start this thread about anyway????? Sorry

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Mark- When getting a scope set up for the Dotz, did you first work up a load for that rifle then send the info to Premier? Or did you give them an approximation then find out after the fact the exact distances for each dot?

Stick- I've heard mention of a Turrets 101 video, is that purchasable? I've shot a couple of Flinch's rifles with turrets. I REALLY liked the set up on his 25-284. He had covered the MOA numbers with tape and just marked the proper yardage. What's your take on that?

Thanks for the discussion gents, I've learned TONS! Guess now I just need to try each for a bit and see where the cards fall.

An excellent discussion Stick and Mark! A wise man once said that sometimes there is more than one right answer.

Does the premier dot system cover small targets like a crow for instance.

Having to select one load with the Premier system does not interest me. But if I had it I would think one could use it with any load and hold off a small amount?

Yeah, I have always thought that when two people always agree one is not needed anymore.....Tons to be learned if one keeps an open mind.

The dots for each range get smaller and smaller-I have zero doubt you could use em, to 700 at least. I do not have a scope set for farther-a friend of mine does but I have not used so I will not comment on farther.

Using one bullet does not bother me one bit-each one is set up with Noz Bt's. And if you need for big game you can chose a stouter bullet with a similar BC and it'll do just fine. So you are not really hamstrung to just one. For real fine long range work you really are, but this does not bother me.

In my 6/06 I have it set it with the 95 Noz Bt at 3500-I've found that bullet to work just fine be it at chucks/pd's/yotes or deer and elk and bruins and of course we beat up on a few speed goats with it each year. So.. for me one bullet is of no big deal-it is very easy and as Stick would say anything to make things more simplistic I am all over.

Yeah you work up the load first-find what you want and then you give them the data to work with. And you tell them how you want it set.

I just use a 1" high sighting at 100 then a dot at 3/4/5/6/7.

It works for me--may not for others-but each and every person I have shown the system to in the last few years is very quickly smacking whatever they want at fairly long distances.

Once they learn true trigger countrol they are well on there way. Then they JUST need to learn about wind/angles/and of course mirage....

Never enough time or enough bullets is there.

Oh well have an awesome day and get to the hill--whatever your choice may be to carry.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Thanks Mark! That sounds like a sweet set up and does make sense. I would think that the system could work in reverse also, one would have to just note where the bullet hits with each dot, however it would take more work. Beings that the 6-06 is not exactly easy on barrels, have you had to replace one once the scope was set up? Any problems with getting the same load to work in the new barrel? Again thanks for the info.

That is a good question-the first tube I got 1700 round out of. That was 99% done on the hill and not at the range--soo that is a lot of shooting og game predators and varmints.

To me I am fairly happy to get the degree of accruacy I want for that amount of rounds with that type of a round.

The 3500 is something I've been able to do with each tube I've worked with
(I think about 6 of them), so I am quite comfy with that. I can go to 3600 if I want but see no need.

If one was worried about that I'd just drop off a bit more with the velocity when I set the scope up and call her good.

This is the info you would need to give Premier to put dots into it.

velocity
bullet weight
bullet BC
ave temp
ave elevation

It will cost you about $15 per dot if I remember right-about 3 weeks turnaround or you can purchase a scope from them and get it a bit quicker.

It works for me and my Amigos--it is easy and simple

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

hey mark, it does sound like you and bigstick know your share regarding optics and reloading. i have not reloaded any yet, but will be once i get my 220. i have been shooting a 25-06 with winchester silvertips and remarkable groups in my opinion. went out monday afternoon and did some targets. 800 yards with a perfect bullseye-dead center. 2nd shot about 1.5 inches above it. for me, thats about as good as i can get, and with a factory load. but, sounds like all of you guys get to do some real shooting.

also, i have got a few toys, and know what you mean in regards to taking to long to get a shot off. i have taken friends with me on hunts and they will take all they can for a set-up. not me. its the gun/caller/decoy, thats it. it would be fun to get some side by side action as you guys say, yet we are all in it for the enjoyment which is therapeutic and will take our mind off what we do to make a living. every one has thier hobby and shooting is ours. can i get an AMEN on that.

hey mark, i played football in school with a guy with same name as yours. not a name you see everyday, nor is my own.

bigstick, thats still tearing me up regarding that picture. THATS A BIG STICK. i showed my wife and she just rolled, as did i, and still do.

do any of you guys have any "formulas" for reloading a 220 swift. hoping to get all of my stuff in around the end of the week. also, i'm wanting to get my aftermarket stock glass bedded. any suggestions regarding this. i have never asked for this option and would like a little info to know what to ask for/look for.

mark, where do you guide, and for what type of hunt? i do a little bit of out of state hunting---------when i can get a "KITCHEN PASS". we all know how that is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />