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Had occassion today to get my newish Remington 700 VTR in 223 Remington (with the 1 in 9" twisted barrel!) back out to the range today.
You may recall I bought this VTR Remington 700 not aware that it has a barrel with the 1 in 9" twist which is normally better suited for heavier and longer bullets.
My intentions for the Rifle was to have it available for when my Ground Squirrel Hunting partners put away their rimfires and bring out their "centerfires" (this puts the closer Ground Squirrels down from the LOUD report of their centerfires and I just stand around waiting for a new stand where the rimfires can be brought back into action).
Anyway I got a great deal on the VTR and get it home and measure the barrel and the muzzle brake and THEN I make reference in the 2,009 Remington catalog and discover the twist rate that is not so conducive to accuracy with the lighter bullets I wanted to use on the diminutive and prolific Ground Squirrels.
Well I had a "sinking feeling" when this info sunk in!
Oh well I thought I'll give it the old college try.
I mounted a Leupold 3.5x10 VX-III on it and headed for the range with some Federal factory machine gun ammo I had on hand.
It shot that ammo pretty well during initial sight-in, break-in!
Then I tried some handloads that I had on hand for another 223 - this ammo used the wonderful 52 gr. Berger Varmint bullets.
That day I shot two groups (5 shots at 100 yards) which measured .551" and .685" - not bad I thought for a new rig with a 10 power scope and "light bullets".
And that .685" group had four shots in .271".
I was pleased with this performance.
Now 29 days later the wind FINALLY quit for an hour and I headed for my Rifle range with some handloads made with 40 grain Berger bullets and some made with 40 grain Sierra BlitzKings.
I got to fire 10 rounds making two groups there at 100 yards with the 40 grain Bergers and the groups measured .710" and .814". I was somewhat happy with these results.
I looked carefully at the "bullet holes" in my BR style targets and they seemed to be very concentric with no signs of tipping or canting.
Anyway the 1 in 9" twisted barrel didn't do horrible things to these 40 grainers and I may end up using them for my Ground Squirreling?
The wind came up as I was shooting and by the time I got to the Sierra BlitzKing 40 grainers the wind was blowing to hard for real accuracy evaluation.
I'll try again tomorrow.
I do see the accuracy difference in this very small sampling of my handloads.
I'll post if the Sierra 40 grainers are an improvement accuracy wise.
Anyone else trying light bullets in the 1 in 9" twisted 223's?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
You will not run into issues with the 40 grain in fast for bullet weight barrels....until you start pushing them in the 3800-4100+ velocity area.

Then, you will find out who makes concentric and thicker jackets.
I would be curious to see how much velocity you lose to the faster twist barrel. How long is the barrel on your VTR? Both of my .223's are 1 in 12 twists and pretty much made for the 40 thru 55 gr bullets. I can push the 40's over 3600 fps in the 26" barrel Remington without too much trouble, and 3500+ is achieveable in the 22" Howaby Vanguard Varmint. Of course, I have no idea if my rifles could even stabilize a 60 gr bullet, much less a 68 gr. I have heard that the 1 in 9" will handle up to the 75 gr Hornady, but curious to know how much you will give up with the lighter bullets.
Some high power competitors shoot 52-53gr. bullets in their 1 in 8 or 1 in 7.5 match rifles when shooting 100/200 yard reduced matches. It's all about how smooth the barrel is.
I've used 40 Vmax with 10X and 35 Vmax with X terminator out of my 24" Colt AR with a 1:9 and got great accuracy.
I've shot 40's and 50's with my 1:7" with no issues...
I'm not sure why a faster twist would not work with lighter bullets, unless the RPM and velocity tore up flimsy jackets. Ballistic Tips will not do this. I do not think you can load a .223 hot enough to "shred" a 40 gr BT in any normal barrel. They are designed to withstand high RPMs.

I have had a Savage .223 with a 1 in 9" barrel for at least 15 years and have shot many, many sub-half inch groups with 40 gr V-Maxs, Ballistic Tips and 50 gr Speer TNTs, BTs and V-Maxs.

I just got back from Arizona a couple weeks ago and shot a couple hundred 40 gr BTs with great results for me. Not so great for the prairie dogs, though. wink
I've ran 30's and 40's from 1-7's and 1-9's with fine accuracy;

I've had 50's mist halfway to the target...

It's all in the jacket/the driving area of the bullet and the condition of the bore.
The 50 gr Speer TNT or the Hornady SPX may do that from a .22-250, for example, at higher velocities, but should not have a problem from a .223. I think the reloading info on those bullets specify that they are not intended for verlocities exceeding a certain level.
50 grain TNTs do indeed have a speed limit. 55 grain 'high velocity' TNTs do not.

There's no inherent reason for a 9 twist barrel to have trouble with 40 grainers unless there's a problem with the bullet's construction.
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I've had 50's mist halfway to the target...
With a .223 Remington?
Particularly the 50SP Midway Varmint Whatevers from a 1-9 222 Mag., ran at 3,550.

Perhaps they are Hornady SPSX's? But they do throw vapor at the 75 yard line and spray like buckshot... The 1-14, they throw fine.


I just chalk it up as a bullet made to a price, and 40's made well should have no problems running in a 1-9.
Acloco: And those "issues" would be what - bullet disintegration, or loss of accuracy?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
2ndtimer: That would be interesting to see for sure.
I could run some of the already made 52 grain handloads I have through my chronograph being shot from the 26" barrel that they were made for - BUT - the barrel on this VTR (the rifled part of the barrel!) is only 20" long so poor comparison there.
To much room for guessing at the loss per inch and the like.
I don't know if I will be able to get a comparison to satisfy our curiousity because I do not have any other 223's with 20" barrels.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
RickyD: That gives me encouragement to keep testing the 40 grainers (and maybe even the 35 grain V-Max's) in my 1 in 9" twisted VTR!
Thanks for that.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
MZ5: Maybe I am suffering under a misinterpretation of the twist rate vs stabilization (or over-stabilization?) issue affecting accuracy.
This is the first "fast twist" in 223 Remington that I have had anything to do with.
Thanks for your clarification and correction of me and my erroneous assumption.
I have seen bullets disintegrate from to high a linear speed (at least that was what us observers attributed it to - and we could be wrong - maybe it in fact was an overdose of RPM's that caused the disintegration?) and determining whether it was an overdose of RPM's or just the speeding down the barrel forces that caused the disintegration?
Thanks again.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Its bullet balance, stability and strength and bore condition.

To a large degree its similar things that cause inaccurate cast bullets; bullets that do not hold together to impart rotational forces and friction pressure from speed tend to be inaccurate.

Both can be hard on an unbalanced, thin jacketed or cheaply made bullet, regardless of weight, to a certain degree.
I have a 22.250 with a one in 7 twist... I have rocketed 40 grain Blitzkings, Ballistic Tips, V Maxes and the 40 grain Sierra HP out of the barrel, and they hold together...

now an SPSX, it will vaporize those at about 6 inches out of the barrel...of course that can be entertaining to watch a couple of those...
I just finished shooting my Winchester Coyote .223 1-9" with 60 grain V-Max and 55 gr BT's..I'm hootin !! I caught a grass Hog in the Bean field on the way home at about 225 with the VMAX,put him in a spin and DRT....
3/8" to 1/2" using CCI's and 10X and tried 2015BR..
I'm happy with the heavy bullets!
Never had a .40gr V-Max, BT, or Speer give me anything but great results in my 1-9" .223

But boy do those SPSX's turn into shotguns. grin I do love those bullets in a slower twist though.


Travis
My brother loves the Super Explosives out of his Remington a slower twist barrel. I do still like the 50 gr TNTs, though.
Seafire: And are you happy with the accuracy of the 40 grainers out of the 1 in 7" twisted 22-250?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Deflave: I will keep in mind your 40 grain recommendations for my near future load development tests.
I will stay away from the SPSX's.
And thank you for the bolstering of my intensity in getting this Rifle to shoot something in the 40 grain weight.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
I have gotten the best accuracy with H-335, W-748, X-Terminator and H-322 with 40 gr bullets - but have not tried Benchmark, 10x and a bunch of other powders that are applicable. Since I load a lot of .223 ammo at a time, I like the way spherical powders or short-grain powders flow through a measure uniformly.
Originally Posted by 2ndtimer
I would be curious to see how much velocity you lose to the faster twist barrel.

Shouldn't lose any velocity. Another wives tail that faster twists spike pressure.
A bullet coming unglued in the barrel can, which gives false credence to the tale...
I just bought a Savage .223 with 1 in 9" twist and it loves the Fiocchi 40 grain V-Max's. I just went prairie dog hunting last weekend, and the gun performed fantastic!
Originally Posted by VarmintGuy
Seafire: And are you happy with the accuracy of the 40 grainers out of the 1 in 7" twisted 22-250?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy


VG,

of the bullets mentioned, all have been as accurate as any other bullet in the barrel.. it is a Pac Nor after market barrel.. 24 inches in length, heavy magnum contour..

I have had good luck with all of my Pac Nor barrels for accuracy...
Originally Posted by HawkI
A bullet coming unglued in the barrel can, which gives false credence to the tale...

all bullets aren't created equal. They wait until out of the barrel to come unglued.
Unless they are cast lead.

They come unglued all right, the barrel just contains it. (grins)
40 grain Vmax over 28 grains of H335 with a CCI primer and range brass. 1-9" Win Coyote has always shot this load under 1/2". Have had some trouble with fouling but gonna try some Ultra Bore Coat. Not sure if the fouling is attributed to the rate of twist, but I can't imagine it helps.
I have noticed a little fouling on it's two range trips.I was thinkin about a little lapping to smooth things out.I can't imagine Winchester using a top grade barrel,but so far it's shooting well.It respones well to loading changes and will tell you what it likes or not.It likes 10x and 2015BR...
I happy with the platform,so a re-barrel would not out of the question.I traded my last Remington for it and got some money to boot.
Seafire: I only have one Pac-Nor barrel in the ranks of my custom Rifles (caliber 6mm Remington Ackley Improved) but indeed I have been very happy with it and the accuracy it produces.
Again I have just had it in my mind that light bullets in a 1 in 9" twisted 22 caliber barrel would not be conducive to accuracy - in this case I am happy to find out my pre-conceptions were wrong!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Higbean: I have printed out your load recommendations and will soon try it - I have H 335 on hand and the local pawn/sport shop has some Hornady 40 grainers in stock.
Thanks.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
My Savage 1 in 9" loves the same load as Higbean uses. W-748 is also good at about a grain higher, but I find better velocity and equal accuracy with H-335 and the light bullets. Another load if temp sensitivity is a concern is 24.5 gr of H-322. Not quite as fast or as accurate in my guns, though, as the H-335 loads. Depending on what I have on hand for primers, I will use CCI mag primers and drop half a grain of H-335.
Calif. Hunter: Thank YOU for the valuable load information - I very much appreciate it - it has been copied and filed.


Guys: I went over to the Lilja Rifle barrel site and copied this "Caliber/bullet twist rate chart" for our perusal here.
I think it was charts like this one that "formed" my illusion of the 1 in 9" twisted barrels not being best suited for the lighter bullets.
Indeed the Lilja site shows the "lightest" bullet recommended in the 22 centerfire caliber barrels twisted 1 in 9" is the 68-69 grainers:
Chart to follow (hopefully):

WEIGHT / CALIBER / TWIST RATE CHART

Grain/Cal .172 .204 .224 .243 .257 .264 .277 .284 .308 .338 .358
17-20 9-10
25 10
30 9 12
33 12
35 12
37 VLD 6
40 12
50-52 9 14
55 12
60 12
68-69 9,10 13,14
75 9 14
80 8
85 7 12 12 12
90 7 10
100 10 10 12 14
105-107 8

Well that didn't turn out worth a darn!
I will try now to list a link to the Lilja recommended twist rate/bullet weight chart page:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/caliber_twist_rates.htm

I hope that works.

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
I recently acquired a Stevens 200 (Savage without the Accu-Trigger) in 223, it has the 1-9 twist and using Nosler 40 gr ballistic-tips/26.3 gr of VV-133/ and any brand of small rifle primer it shoots 1/2 groups for 5 shots at 100 yds. This is with a 3x9 scope, although I am using a target that fits the scope power so I can define the aim point easily.

Using this set-up any gopher within 300 yds has about a 90% chance of dying. The best part is that I have less than $300 the whole set-up. With more magnification I could reach further but this set-up lives in my pick-up the scope is always set to 9x and when a target of opportunity presents itself it is ready to go without thinking about what I have to change before shooting.


drover
I believe you may be misreading that chart, VarmintGuy. It says to choose twist rate based on the heaviest bullet you intend to shoot, which means that according to them a 9 twist is good for bullets up to a maximum of 75 grains rather than the minimum.

Here's a good twist estimator which I did not create, but which I use:
bullet-stability-and-twist-estimator
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It says to choose twist rate based on the heaviest bullet you intend to shoot, which means that according to them a 9 twist is good for bullets up to a maximum of 75 grains rather than the minimum.
That's the way I read it which is the way it works in my rifles, too. I get very good accuracy with 69 Sierra's but my groups triple in size with 70 grain Barnes. I know the Barnes is long for weight, but have never tried a 75 and believe it would show an accuracy deterioration at 223 Remington speeds.
Drover: Sounds like a great rig you have there - and economical to boot!
I am into my 700 VTR and its used Leupold scope about double and a half of your amount ($700.00).
I would sure be happy with 1/2 groups from the 40 grainers from my rig!
I will be working on that as the wind allows.
I use VV N-133 powder in a couple of my Rifles and for the life of ME - I can not find any of it on store shelves to save myself. Have you seen it for sale of late?
I am just about fed up with this "component shortage".
I see no let up in sight for these shortages and high prices.
Drat.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
MZ5: Thanks for the link I am gonna head over that way and check it out.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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