re: quenching after annealing

quick question: is there any benefit to quenching brass imediently after annealing?

I am a total novice when it comes to annealing. I have done a small batch of unknown round count .223 and think they turned out fine. I used a socket and rotated them through the flame of a portable torch with my portable screwdriver. I got the 'discoloration' on the neck just like the new LC brass. I did not drop the cases into water, and I was just wondering if there was any benefit to doing so.

Any annealers care to shed some light on the subject?

Thanks,
burt2506

I don't do a lot of annealing but I can explain how its done by me.

I hold the case in my fingers and rotate the case through the flame of a propane torch while counting one thousand, two thousand, up to either 6 or 7 thousand while watching the colour of the case. When it starts to glow red I immediately quench it in cold water.

Using this method, and being sure to only apply the heat to just barely below the case shoulder, I have found the cases to be improved to the point where the number of resizings can be increased by several reloadings. I know this system is inexact compared to what some on this forum do but by using my bare fingers to hold the cases I can quickly tell if the case is in danger of being over heated.

Specifically in reply to your question, yes I believe quenching is desirable.

Jim

I am 'self taught"...

for 223 brass, I hold it into a flame from a propane torch, mounted on a 7 gallon tank I got for free...on an extension tree that was also free...

I hold the 223 brass in the flame ( using a needle nose pliers) at the shoulder so that the neck gets the flame also.. and count to five.. and then drop it into a small metal decorative bucket I picked up at Walmart for a dollar..

mine just air cool...

I did an experiment on the life span potential of brass using 223 cases and 22.250 cases...a batch of 10 with each caliber...

I quit on the 22.250 cases at 50 reloads..

I quit on the 223 cases at 100 reloads..

each case was loaded and shot ( that was 1400 bullets to run this test)...then necked sized...

pressure was kept in the 45,000 to 50,000 CUP ranges....

I annealed after every 4th reload..records kept on 3 x 5 cards with each batch ( as I do all my brass)...

so quenching in water afterwards has not been needed in my case..

my regimen has boiled down to I hold 223 brass in the flame for 5 second, 22.250, 243 etc sized cases 6 to 8 seconds, and 06 sized cases 8 to 10 seconds.. I pull them when the neck starts to try and glow red..

I have multiple batches of 223 brass with 40 plus reloads on them..all my brass is sorted into 'lots' of 10 to 25 and put in plastic zip lock bags.. with their load history kept on 3 x 5 cards, recording date.. load.. primer and whether necksized or full lengthed..

on the back of the car, I record annealing history, and any losses along the way..and why...

so that has become my experience and S.O.P.

guys,
thanks for the replies. I figure it is personal preference as to whether or not quenching is needed....I think there is absolutely no question that annealing is desirable and the benifits are well documented...much like the detail in Seafire's load data

Thanks again,

burt2506

When I first did it I thought that the quenching completed the process of softning. I might be right, I might be wrong on that point. But if I am right then letting the brass air cool will not give the best benifit from the process and might even make it a total waste of time (just give it a nice color change).

BTW, everything I have read about annealing has had the quenching as the last step.

In John Barsness' book "Obsession of a Rifle Loony", pages 310-311, he talks about annealing.

Heating with a propane torch until the brass is cherry red makes the necks too soft.

Instead, he holds the cases in his fingers half way up and heats them in a wax candle flame until the case is too hot to hold. He then drops it onto a water soaked towel and uses the towel to wipe off the candle soot.

The benefit of this method is that it anneals "just the right amount".

That method was worked out by a metallurgist, and I have used it quite a bit.

Brass, unlike most other metal alloys, doesn't need to be quenched after heating to be annealed. The only reason I even wipe the hot brass with a wet paper towel is to get rid of the soot from the candle while it's still soft. If you're into making brass shiny every time it's shot, then dropping it into a case tumbler would work too.

I guess the other reason to give annealing a try would be just for the experience... to be able to add that to my reloading resume.

guys, thanks for the replies and imput. I will keep you posted as to how it goes.

burt2506

Originally Posted by Mule Deer

That method was worked out by a metallurgist, and I have used it quite a bit.

Brass, unlike most other metal alloys, doesn't need to be quenched after heating to be annealed. The only reason I even wipe the hot brass with a wet paper towel is to get rid of the soot from the candle while it's still soft. If you're into making brass shiny every time it's shot, then dropping it into a case tumbler would work too.

I have also read that u don't need to quench the neck.

I use a 650� Tempilstik (should've got the tempillaq liquid), as it was written up so many times in several articles. The problem with the stick was that it's chalky and won't wipe onto a case. So i thought about it some and figured that maybe if i scrape a little off on the inside of the case it might work. Turns out it works great and i can instantly see when the chalk dissipates. One pass with a neck brush and any leftover trace is completely gone.

The problem that i have READ with annealing is that the temperature range is supposed to be critical for good results, and with a torch the temp. change occurs so fast that it could never be montiored as accurately as it's supposed to be...but it works for me. At least i haven't blown myself up yet.

Good writeup and research by Seafire.

I don't claim to be a metalurgist, but I have annealed a ton of brass cases and I have always just gone into the garage with the lights off, propane torch on about the medium setting and a gallon bucket of water. I hold the brass in my fingers and just about the moment it starts to JUST SLIGHTLY GLOW AROUND THE NECK AND SHOULDER ONLY AND IS TOO HOT TO HOLD I drop in the water. Always seems to be just right and have never had a single failure? Sometimes I think to much is made about this process, but maybe I am just over simplifying it.....................YMMV

One benefit I can see from quenching is to prevent the heat from migrating to the base and softening it.

Even holding it with your fingers until it is too hot to hold, the heat will still move toward the base after you drop it, unless you drop it in water.

123 has it right. In a technical sense, brass can't be "quenched" as ferrous metals can but dropping it in water does stop the heat from migrating toward the head. That's a good thing!

I've developed a production technigue.
Five gallon bucket, cordless drill, pencil point torch, super-duper sleeved-hunks-of-tubing case holder.
The best thing is a really lightweight drill, light duty cheapo, just big enough to chuck the holder. If the weight is centered around the handle, that's important.
I get all set up comfy, one hand puts cases in the slowly-rotating drill, the other holds the drill. Have the point of the flame (hottest spot) burning up into the shoulder/neck corner or thereabouts. Watch the color while counting, there will be a change in the gassing around the case.
Flick the drill, the case falls into the bucket, grab another case and go.
It's boring but if you have good sorted brass and want to keep it alive a long time, you'd be amazed at what annealing gives you.

Quenching in water is neither good nor bad. It makes no difference.

Alot of people use a pan with water in it so that the are assured that the lower part of the brass does not get heated like you want the shoulder to be heated. You do not want the web area to be heated-that is bad.

So alot of people just push the brass over into the water after they have annealed the brass.

Brass does not have the hardening characteristics like water quenching steel has. So it definitely is not necessary. And you also need to make sure you get it good and dry.

Just look up the properties for brass. You can satisfy your question in the facts of the characteristics of brass. Tom.

Originally Posted by jmp300wsm

I don't claim to be a metalurgist, but I have annealed a ton of brass cases and I have always just gone into the garage with the lights off, propane torch on about the medium setting and a gallon bucket of water. I hold the brass in my fingers and just about the moment it starts to JUST SLIGHTLY GLOW AROUND THE NECK AND SHOULDER ONLY AND IS TOO HOT TO HOLD I drop in the water. Always seems to be just right and have never had a single failure? Sometimes I think to much is made about this process, but maybe I am just over simplifying it.....................YMMV

+1

I use about the same technique.

I put the cases in a pan of water with about an inch of water in the pan, heat the necks up till they are cherry red, then tip them over. Been using this technique since the late 60's. I worked for a commercial reloader in the 60's. He bought 55 gallon drums of 30'06 brass and we made everything on that case head with that brass, lots of work. 20 rounds of loaded ammo he sold for $2.00. We annealed all the brass after forming and then inside neck reamed.

Annealing is not the rocket science that some would lead you to believe as long as all you are interested in is tiny groups out of a rifle.

There is no need to tip them over--and no need to heat the brass cherry-red. In fact, heating them cherry-red makes the necks softer than they should be for the best accuracy. It becomes so soft it kind of grabby, and will usually shoot better after a couple of firings.

None of the commercial annealing units uses water at all, whether the simple Hornady unit or more complex machines like the Ken Lightman model. Instead they have the head of the case sitting inside a metal hole, to form a "heat sink" to prevent the head of the case from over-heating. The neck of the case is heated up sufficiently to anneal (nowhere near cherry-red) and then allowed to air-cool.

The head of the case has to be heated to 500 degrees for a considerable period of time for it to be softened. I suspect the brass could just be stood up on a steel plate during annealing without ever getting the head of the case anywhere near 500 degrees.

I use the cordless drill/socket method too and drop them in water when finished. I quench them mostly as matter of stopping the annealing process the same way every time. I get them to the temp I want for time I want and done.

I think that's a good point about the case head. Assuming you're only heating the neck/shoulder to the proper temp I doubt enough heat could move through the case for enough time to also anneal the head even with out a heat sink. Not only does the heat have to conduct through the case but there's physically a lot more brass to heat around the head area than the neck. If poor technique (bad flame angle, overheating, etc) is used though all bets are off and I could envision annealed case heads too.

A couple of nights ago I annealed 97 twice fired .243 cases using the method outlined in your book � just hold them in your fingers halfway up the case and heat the neck and shoulder in a wax candle flame until they get too hot to hold. After heating them I just dropped them (quickly!) into a container to air cool without quenching. They do tend to get �too hot to hold� all of a sudden like.

It only took about 20-25 minutes to do the whole batch. Later they were tumbled to remove the soot instead of wiping them individually.

These are going to be fireformed into .243 AI cases so we�ll see how they do. I do not expect to lose any from necks or shoulders splitting.

Jim,

I'd be interested in hearing your results.

I should mention here that the method was worked out by Fred Barker, a retired metallurgist, who used heat-paint during his experiments. Fred originally published an article about the method in PRECISION SHOOTING.

Will do. It will be a few weeks as the rifle is still at the gunsmith's being rechambered.

Originally Posted by jmp300wsm

I don't claim to be a metalurgist, but I have annealed a ton of brass cases and I have always just gone into the garage with the lights off, propane torch on about the medium setting and a gallon bucket of water. I hold the brass in my fingers and just about the moment it starts to JUST SLIGHTLY GLOW AROUND THE NECK AND SHOULDER ONLY AND IS TOO HOT TO HOLD I drop in the water. Always seems to be just right and have never had a single failure? Sometimes I think to much is made about this process, but maybe I am just over simplifying it.....................YMMV

Your method of working in a darkened room and heating until the neck just starts to glow is exactly correct. I suspect many do not get the case hot enough and really do nothing. Brass needs to get up to 800F to anneal, and that is the temperature it will be when it just glows in a darkened room. Quenching in water does nothing to anneal or harden the brass, but it does stop the heat from going down to the base, where you really do not want to anneal, and loose strength. The only disadvantage of dropping the cases in water is that you have to get them dry again, before you can continue reloading.

Heating until the neck glows in normal indoor light is too hot, and you risk damaging the brass.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but do want to point out again that the "rule of thumb" methods mentioned work fine for 223, 308 -'06 and belted magnum class cases --- but cases such as the WSM and WSSM are so thick that it 1) takes longer to get the neck up to temperature, and 2) the thicker brass conducts heat faster towards the head. I would not try to anneal those cases without using a heat sink.

In my experimentation, IIRC, a 223rem case took 7 seconds (using Todd Kindler's annealing ring), a 223WSSM case to 27 second. Both using Tempilstick indicators. FWIW, Dutch.

Originally Posted by Ken Howell

Annealing necks and shoulders is advisable or necessary to prolong case life, before or after (sometimes before AND after) the brass is work-hardened by a lot of shooting and sizing or by substantial change in case dimensions.
 
 For example, I have about 1,500 new Winchester .25-06 cases that I have to re-form into .220 Howell cases. This re-forming requires basically three things -- pushing the shoulder back, reducing the diameter of the neck and part of the case below the shoulder, and trimming them from 2.494 inches to 2.4 inches. Trimming 'em to length doesn't work-harden 'em, but the other two steps work-harden 'em a great deal. Work-hardening reduces the number of loadings and firings a case can withstand before it splits.
 
 Re-forming .25-06 brass to .220 Howell requires so many steps and produces so much work-hardening that (to be sure) I'm going to anneal 'em both before and after the re-forming procedure.
 
 According to Naramore, 70/30 cartridge brass has to be heated to about 653� F to alter the grain structure quickly enough to allow the neck and shoulder to be annealed without also softening the entire case. Heating the neck and shoulder to a lower temperature and immediately quenching it merely wastes time. It doesn't make the neck and shoulder soft enough to be worth the trouble.
 
 Heating the neck and shoulder hot enough to glow overheats and overanneals the brass, so heating to a glow wastes cases. There's not enough elasticity left in the neck to grip a bullet as tight as good ballistics performance requires.
 
 So the temperature "window" is short and narrow -- from about 660� to about 700� F. Also, that temperature -- once reached -- has to be lowered before the heat can migrate from the neck and shoulder down to the base of the case (which MUST remain harder).
 
 It's also necessary to anneal the neck and shoulder all the way around their full circumference (their "perimeter," in military lingo). Of course good consistency also requires that every case in the batch be annealed to the same softness as all the others -- no more, no less.
 
 The method that I developed (and vetted with companies that make cartridge cases) meets all these requirements simply, easily, and economically.
 
 I chuck the shell-holder of a Lee case trimmer in an "egg-beater" type of hand drill, as both a case-holding chuck and a heat sink to absorb heat and keep the case head relatively cool. The hand drill lets me revolve the neck and shoulder of the case in the flame of a Bernz-O-Matic torch to heat the brass evenly all the way around.
 
 To show when the brass is hot enough, but not yet too hot, I mark the warming case with a welder's "temp stick" rated at 650� F, at or slightly below the lower edge of the area that I want to soften. (By the time the lower edge is up to 650�, the neck is presumably up to the slightly higher heat required for adequate annealing.)
 
 When the brass directly under the crayon mark reaches the temperature that the crayon is rated for, the crayon mark (depending on the brand of the crayon) either changes color or becomes liquid and runs.
 
 I then dunk the case in a bucket of water, remove it from the shell-holder, and insert a new case to continue.
 
 This easy, economical, simple procedure takes a little time but involves no discomfort, no great risk of painful burns, while it guarantees complete, consistent softening without either under- or overannealing. It avoids all the short-comings of all the other annealing methods that I've ever read or heard of. It's even more consistent and dependable than the expensive annealing machinery that I've seen used in the commercial manufacturing of cartridge brass.
 
 Others will post here their favored "HERE's how I do it" methods. I've looked into every one of these old folk-lore methods and found significant flaws in every one of 'em. That's why and how I came to devise the method I've just described here. It works. It produces all the desired effects and results precisely and consistently at very little effort and expense.
 _____________________________
 
 BTW, we used to live in Notasulga -- "exactly halfway between Cheaha and Loachapoka," as our friend Alton Averett told an Army buddy who asked "Where in the Hell is Notasulga, Alabama?"

dave

Thanks for all the replies and insight. I ran through my first batch of .17 Remington and .223/5.56 mil-surp brass with no ill effects or issues.
Although I have no scientific data to back me up, it sure seems that the brass was easier to size and de-prime. This was once fired (on the .17) and unknown on the .223 (range pick-up) ...

I did not quench the brass or drop it into water,just a metal tin and allowed it to slowly cool to room temp.

I really enjoyed this new (to me) step in reloading, and will continue to anneal brass as I find time.

Thanks to all.

burt2506

Here is a non annealed vs annealed results picture. I was convienced. The annealed brass shot the best this rifle has ever shot. I quench and am in the process of building a auto annealer. Should finish the torch mounts tonight.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by burt2506

I really enjoyed this new (to me) step in reloading, and will continue to anneal brass as I find time.

burt2506

What's the handloader's equivalent to a rifle looney? 'Cause we have one, here...

Dutch.

Lots of "how I do it" but the reason for dropping cases into a water bucket is ONLY to stop the migration of heat down the body.

"Quenching" is, technically, the wrong word. Quenching is a specific step in controlling temper, usually of ferrous metals. Brass cannot be heat tempered so all we do is cool it rapidly.

Given the very slight change in an annealed case and the tremendous leverage of a press, there should be no appearent difference in sizing effort after annealing.

Another alternative to dropping the case in a bucket of water is to lay them sideways on a dampened cloth or towel. That way you won't get water inside and have to dry them afterwards before you can continue loading.

Simply put quenching keeps you from overheationg and hence weakening the case head. Short cases need to be put in a pan of water to keep from overheating the caseheads, longer cases can be held in your fingers, and guranteed you'll drop them into the water before you overheat the case head.