Trying to decide between another 17 rem or fireball gun vs a 22 caliber varmint rifle, and called an unnamed ( to protect his opinion) barrel maker who told me that 17 calibers foul more than 22 calibers ( question was on hornet capacity- so no screamers) and if he were to choose between the 2 he said he would go with the 22 K hornet.


I haven't shot either of my 17 remington guns enough to make my own opinion on fouling, which I assume his concern was accuracy loss . Curious if others have gone away from shooting "volume" quantities of 17's and switched to 22's. Expecting to shoot at a max 100 rds between cleaning as I have enough vermin rigs to rotate during a day's outing.


Thanks for your experience / opinions


Allen

Sir,

I load for a number of small caliber chamberings.



l to r

17 ackley hornet, 17 hebee, 17 mach iv, 17 fireball, 17 remington, 20 vartarg, 20 tactical, 22 hornet, 218 bee, 221 fireball 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 223 Rem AI, 22-250, 220 swift.

I've been shooting the 17 Ackley Hornet and 17 Mach IV since the mid nineties. Firing Seventy-five to 100 rounds at a moderate pace, you should see very little degradation in accuracy. Although I don't care for them, you can also use moly bullets. Sometimes I wonder how many folk have actually "worked" with the sub calibers.

FWIW, I think most folks over-clean. In fact I don't even do barrel break in any more. I get three or 4 bore brushes, a quality rod, brass brushes and use a mixture of JB bore paste and Kroil. I "hand lap the barrels with 200 + strokes, usually 50 or so between cleaning the brush and using fresh application of aforementioned mixture. That is my "break in". IIRC an article in the Small Caliber News years ago featured a fellow that was near 300 rounds through his MachIV since he had cleaned it. He was going to see just how many rounds he could fire before accuracy cratered.
As an aside, if you haven't picked out a rifle yet or have your heart set on the Fireball, you might check out the 20 VarTarg, which is the 221 Fireball necked down to 20 Cal. It's a mild mannered chambering that has excellent accuracy potential.




GWB

Thanks for your input.


I do recall long ago remington got bad press with the 17 remington due to fouling, but I also know barrels are much better than they were then.


I was surprised at the Barrel Mfg saying that too, but it also may have been a higher people complain about the 17's more than a K hornet, ie they would rather sell the 22's than 17's.

I am loaded heavy on 20 cal's, my 17 rem is an AR so a single shot/ bolt is my next acquisition, I hope.


How much for the Vartag? I have a supply of 4198...LOL

Thanks

Allen

I've been shooting the .17 Fireball a lot the past few years, the rifle an all-factory synthetic-stocked Rem. 700 with a chrome-moly barrel. It fouled some at first, while shooting up a case of factory ammo, but once I switched to handloads using Ramshot TAC (very clean-burning, with a de-coppering agent) it didn't foul much. I then installed Dyna Bore Coat and the bore hardly fouls at all anymore. My handload duplicates the velicity of factory ammo, 3950 or so in a 24" barrel with 20-grain bullets.

I just bought a .17 Remington 700 BDL made in early 1973 so will soon find out if it fouls more, though the bore looks very smooth in my bore-scope. I suspect part of the problem with the .17 Remington wasn't so much the barrels as the dirty-burning ball powder used in factory ammo. Heavy powder fouling doesn't do any good for accuracy itself, but also tends to increase copper fouling due to abrasion.

The Ramshot ball powders are very clean-burning, and today we also have a number of small-grained extruded powders that burn cleanly today that are almost as easy to drop inside a .17 caliber neck.

Ohhhhh...its gonna foul like a Maux Faux, and you'll have to get rid of it...quickly.....

Thanks again.


John, can't wait for your loading experience out of the 17 Remington. I have a good load worked up for the AR, around 3/4" that I need to repeat before loading a batch for next spring, and still need to continue seasoning the UBC as it is still coming out blue and assume it will stop after the next backyard session. I think I have a way to start expansion on the little pills to keep from blowing holes in my 1/4" Milspec armorplate...

Allen

Hemiallen: I have been shooting the 17 MachIV for a long time now and have never been troubled with "fouling" interfering with my Varmint Hunting.
I also have a Remington 700 VSF in 17 Remington Fireball - again no fouling troubles to date!
I currently have 3 different factory Models of the Remington 700 in 17 Remington - I am somewhat overly protective of these three Rifles when it comes to round count between cleanings.
With that caveat in mind again I do not experience lack of accuracy troubles with any of these factory Rifles!
I use them mostly for Colony Varminting and some predator Hunting.
I am quite smitten with the 204 Ruger and its amazing performance in the Varmint arena!
That might be an interesting new Varminter for you?
I would NOT be afraid to try another 17 centerfire at all based on my decades of in field and at the range useage!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: As usual be wary, VERY WARY, of the bizarre dribblings of self described and proven "TURD" like peoples - it naver ceases to amaze me of the irrelevence and idiot like musings of the few TURDS that unfortunately frequent this and some other outdoor sites!
These folks (TURDS) have nothing of merit or sensibilty to add yet they TURD around making fools of themselves!
Sheesh - grow up TURDS or go play with yourself in the corner!

This is precious......

Uncle Larry??.....

hemiallen,

If your bore is still gathering copper after its been shot a number of times after installing DBC, then you should put some more in the bore.

Installing DNC in smaller bores can be a problem, due to more of the stuff being pushed out of the bore by the patch or bore mop than staying inside. The instructions say to use a bore mop, and I've definitely found a mop to work better than a patch in smaller bore. But some mops also fit too tightly. I've started using a file card or coarse sandpaper on mops before using them to install DBC. The mop should fit the bore loosely.

Nope...thats your aunt Sally.....

LOL!!!!

I've toyed with several 17's and my testing is not very good: I haven't ran a patch through any of them (except a used Douglas 17 Rem. that, after cleaning, I found there was no throat).

We've put about 400 rounds through an old, used 17 Rem Ultra Wildcat barrel, and it hasn't shown a noticeable change in accuracy. My friend bought his 17 Fireball 3-4 years ago and have never cleaned it (it still shoots 3/4, five shot groups).

We put a hundred rounds through a new (but old) Flaig/Douglas 17-222Mag barrel about a month ago. It shot as scary from the start as it did ten minutes before we left. That sucker shot a 1/2 in, maybe less, five shot group for me after it already had about 75 rounds through it.

I think there was as much ado about bad bullets of that size as bad barrels back at its infancy along with dirty (especially ball) powders, and a combination of them would certainly make one search for an answer.

I haven't had enough issues to find an answer for and I do not clean unless there is a need to.

Thanks John.

About UBC, I was concerned when I had other guns treated that cleaning after range session 2 they still showed copper, then did some searching and it seems the consensus is it takes a few range sessions before the barrel is usually copper free???

I used one of the nylon strings with a blob made on the end by melting then filing smaller, cut down patch and made sure it was still wet after pulling through the bore ( ie wet at the muzzle) and did 2 settings since it takes so little liquid on the small bore. I think the application was ok, but will recoat if the consensus is it should be copper free after the second range session ( 20 shots after broken in)


Yes, I read early bullets were problematic adding to the early remingtons getting bad press.


Thank you

Allen

hemiallen,

Are you cleaning all the copper out after the first (curing) range session? Treated barrels normally foul during the curing shots. Then you clean 'em and there should be noticeably less copper after that.

Thanks John

I have been using the string to remove any brass discoloration/ false readings I initially saw with a cleaning rod, and my 223 had the same showing of Cu after the second shooting session. I'll shoot the 223 a few more "sessions" to see if my application is poor in general, using CU+2 mostly.


Thanks

Allen

hemiallen, my 17 Remingtons copper fouled heavy with fast loads of 24.0g of IMR 4320 and 25g bullets, velocity was around 4100+. In two Sako Vixens, I got around 25-30 shots before bullets started going side ways. I shot the barrels out of the two Vixens with Win 760 on dog towns in the very early 80's.

Next came two Rem 700's in 17 Rem, and my hunting partner had at least 4. I shot the barrels out of mine with a hot load of 760, once again with 25's, velocity in the 3900-4000 fps area. Typical shooting on dog towns was to shoot till the bullets started disappearing, then clean.

My partner started shooting AA2015 with the 25s with the velocity in the 3850 fps with the 25's with a powder charge of about 21.5g with a Rem 7 1/2 primer. Shot strings in Rem factory rifles was in the 100-125 round area

Powder fouling is of major importance in the 17 Remington, especially if you are into high volume shooting.

I built a turn neck, minimum SAAMI spec 17 Rem on a Shilen barrel, and started shooting groups in the .300's and smaller almost immediately after the initial sight in with AA2015. With all of these 17 Rem's that we shot out, it seems that if you keep the velocity below 3900 with the 25g, that copper fouling is MUCH less. Further more, any bullet made on a J-4 jacket will foul less than other bullets.

We started tumbling our bullets in Wax sold by Todd Kindler of Small Caliber News and immediately saw a reduction in copper fouling. The Wax also lowered the Standard Deviation in velocity to the low teen's.

I think that the UBC treatment would do nothing but improve the situation in addition to the Wax on the bullets.

Over on the www.saubier.com board, you will see a group of very experienced small cartridge wild catter's, and I encourage you to post over there.

Keith,

You mentioned Sako and Saubier and Todd K.

Years ago I purchased a Boyd's thumbhole laminate stock from a fellow. It had been bedded for a Sako S491 action. Would you be that Keith?

GWB

New solvents, better bullets, powders and cleaning gear make the 17caliber horror stories acient history. I love small calibers. I have ran everything from 14-221 walker up to a 20Tactical. I have never had any of the issues that were talked about when the 17 Remington came out.

ingturdwe: As usual your postings are completely devoid of any rational thought or positive input in any way shape or form!
You once again prove YOUR OWN STATUS as nothing but a turd.
Your bizarre dribbling quote to follow:

"Ohhhhh...its gonna foul like a Maux Faux, and you'll have to get rid of it...quickly..... "

Grow up turd - life is passing you by and you have NOTHING to offer anyone - to date!

Again all should be aware of turds and turds who go out of their way to prove their turdiness AND THEN take the time and effort to describe themselves as turds!
Sheesh, what a worthless turd you are there ingturdwe!
If you have nothing pertinent or positive to add I ask again why don't YOU just go flush yourself?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG is smoking bat schit again!

To the OP,

I am on my third .17 Remington. All factory tubes and they have all shot lights out. No fouling problems at all. And I do have a tendency to stand on them as well.

I love .17's.

If you're going to do the Ackley Hornet version I'd wait until the commercial version is out. I would hate to have a bastard chamber and dies with the commercial version right around the corner.

Travis

Thanks


Yea, I just missed a good priced 17 Fireball gun and probably need to start looking for a 17 fireball shooter.


Glad to see all the bad press was long ago and not valid.

Thanks

Allen

Ya, that bad press was long ago and not valid at all. I've been shooting factory barrel 17's since they first came out and I've never had any issues with mine. I'm sure a few folks did, just as a few have issues with other calibers.
The 17 Rem is by far my favorite caliber. I'm having my very first custom barreled 17 built on a Kimber action and I sure can't wait to get it back.
17's, Wipe Out, and Lock Ease were made for each other.

I purchased a used Rem 700BDL in .17 Rem many years ago. There was a lot of bad press about them concerning fouling so I took it home and spent 2 wks cleaning the barrel. The thing shot terrible. At 50 yds most of the bullets missed the target completely. Some went through broad side (key hole). Some of the holes had a little gray comet tail. I found out there was a "loose" spot several inches forward of the throat. I had it rebarreled only to have Remington recall my serial number for barrel replacement. The new barrel shot very well with no fouling problems. I was told that early barrels were not polished properly back then. The up shot is clean frequently and you'll have lots of fun blowing the head off woodchucks or whatever.

I have owned a Tikka LSA55 in 17rem since 1981 and used to shoot fox's to supliment my income. In 1983 I had a Shillen Stainless barell fitted due to the original one wearing out (I think). In 1985 the fox skin market went south and this rifle was then only used occaisionally (less than 10 shots a year) until 2009 when I started to do some ferral animal control work.

This rifle has always been very accurate until the 16 shot mark, then it has to be cleaned. I have just put up with this for many years!

I have always reloaded with ww760 (26.5g I think!), cci br primers, remington cases and hornaday 25g hollow points. Yep all my stock is still from the early 1980's.

From some of the above posts it seems that the powder may be an issue. What power would be recomended now for the .17rem?

I have also had issues with brass splitting the necks after 3 to 4 reloads and now have enough 204ruger brass to resize and form into .17rem brass, I'm told this is a much better way to go.

Whilst on powder, what recomendations for the other 2 guns I reload;

222 (55g hornaday sp) and use ww748, same vintage of course and would also appreciate a powder to suit this.

7x57r in a break open gun, just purchased this gun a couple of months ago and have dies and been shooting factory ammo to collect enough brass to reload. Looking at shooting 120g hornaday vmax and 139g hornaday sst.

Cheers,
James

17 Remingtons can be real copper foulers. There are a couple of things that I found that may help you out. Obviously, the barrel copper fouls with the velocity you are shooting.

1) try a load of 21.5-22.5g of H322, less powder fouling will
give you extended shooting strings. Velocity will be in
the 3850 fps. As you approach 4000 fps, copper fouling
gets out of control.
2) use Berger bullets only or a custom bullet that uses a J4
Jacket, your copper fouling will be much less! I can not
stress this enough

3) I waxed my bullets, and copper fouling went down to next to
zero, and the velocity standard deviation also went down in
single digits. If you want more information on waxing bullets
send me a Private message, it is easy and cheap.

Concerning your 222, H335 is a fantastic powder for the 55's. Since you have win 748, you may want to use it up. Accuracy will be at the very top end of the load data.

Ta Keith,

Originally ran the .17 as a dedicated fox rifle and loaded it for accuracy and minimum pelt damage.

The hornaday hollow points were the best projectile for this back then and I have used this load ever since, tried remington 25g hollow points which were not good on pelts and Bell 23grainers which had weight variations in the one box.

Fox pelts are worthless now so skin damage is not a consideration. I'll chase some Berger projectiles and see how they go! Just hope they flatten roos, dingoes and fox like the Hornaday.

I may have a hard time reducing the velocity though, it is addictive! From the above posts the inference was that the ww760 I'm using is dirty and causing some of the issues and that there are cleaner burning powders so will also chase some H322.

I'll keep running the 748 in the 222 as there are no problems, but only have a bit left so will need to buy powder and projectiles as I just loaded the last hundred on the weekend.

Will send a PM about the waxing - will it hurt?

cheers,
James

keith,

In my experience it's a lot easier and cheaper (both in terms of time and money) to apply something once to the bore than to every bullet. It costs maybe $2 to apply Dyna Bore Coat to a .17 barrel, and then its in there for the life of the barrel.

It's funny you mention this. I settled on H414 (same thing) back in the 80s in my 17 Rem for three reasons. It was very fast, it grouped well, and it flowed nicely through the skinny case neck. I was using CCI-BR primers too but they wanted to spring leaks at the radius so I switched to 450s instead.



Hmmm? I betting you're just hoping he'll bring it back so you can sell it to yet another poor soul. (How many times have you swindled people with that same rifle anyway? )

Klik,

Well, though I've certainly purchased a bunch of rifles from Ingwe when he was behind the counter at Capital Sports, this particular .17 Remington came from an ad on the Campfire Classifieds. And I do believe old Ingwe has retired from the retail gun biz, as of a couple weeks ago....

geedubya you are spot on. good advice.

.17s vary.

My first .17 was a TC Contender carbine barrel in .17 Remington. It did indeed have fouling issues affecting accuracy. Groups with a freshly cleaned barrel went under .75 inch. At about 16-18 rounds the groups opened up to over 2 inches.

My next .17 was a Remington 700 BDL. It'd shoot accurately for about 70 rounds, then suddenly accuracy fell off.

In both cases, a good scrubbing and some copper solvent would return the lost accuracy. Don't know if it was relevant, but in those days Remington made their own 25 grain .17 caliber hollowpoint, they hadn't yet switched to using Hornady's bullets, and the Remingtons seemed to be a lot more accurate in my 2 rifles.

My third .17 was a 700 rebarreled with a #8 contour PacNor barrel. I went as far as 165 rounds without a cleaning one time and accuracy did not appear to change. It lived primarily on the then-new 20 grain VMAX at about 4300 fps.

My most recent was a 700 LVSF. I don't recall how long a string I shot with it between cleanings but I never saw accuracy drop off. I still have the barrel in the closet, I switched it out to build a .204 at maybe 1000 rounds fired. I 'spect it'll go back on an action someday.

I spent a while with a .17 Fireball; it lived on 20 grain VMAXes at about 4000 fps. It fouled a little for 50-100 rounds, after that, I never could get any blue fouling on a solvent patch. It was a blued 700 SPS.

My HMR (ruger heavy barrel 77/17) fouled a teeny bit for the first 30-40 rounds, since then, nary a hint of copper.

Lot depends on how smooth the barrel is to begin with. Rough barrels foul, and the faster you push bullets, the more they foul. Its a bit harder to make smooth barrels as the bore size goes down, but obviously many barrel makers have figured out the trick.

Just concluded my first experiment with the .17 Remington 700 BDL mentioned earlier, made in 1973. With a clean bore, it started shooting 1/2' to 1" 5-shot groups at 100 yards with handloads using Benchmark and Big Game.

Shot it 110 rounds without cleaning, mostly with Benchmark and various 20-grain bullets, before groups started to open up. Cleaned it today, and the big problem seemed to be powder fouling, as the bore-scope showed only a few tiny smears of copper fouling. Dunno if it would have shot well longer with Big Game.

Will probably install DBC next, expecting time between cleanings to at least double and maybe triple.

Told ya'...




Travis

Impossible. I've read on the internet that they foul plugged shut after 5 rounds..

And that's the good ones. The bad ones only take 2 rounds.

Todd Kindler of the Small Caliber News sells a wax called SPL that will reduce copper fouling significantly. It will also reduce the Standard deviation down to the single digits, cheap also!

I found a Remington M700BDL in .17 REM today for 599 if I remember correctly. If anyone is interested PM me.

Thaks for bringing this back to the top.


Since starting this post I have several 17 caliber guns, one of which is a Cooper 21 in 17 remington. I didn't like it's poor grouping and a few issues, so I returned it to cooper for a once over and evaluation. They said even after I thought I had it squeeky clean it had severe copper fouling, they fixed it and shot 2 each 3 shot sub 0.100" groups and returned it to me.


I bought a box of 50 of the HSM ammo they test fired, mounted the scope tonight and hope to duplicate their findings....


I need to get a borescope.

Allen

Believe me, Dyna Bore Coat will improve things considerably.

Dyna Bore Coat and waxed bullets sounds like a marriage made in Heaven.

Thanks John


My plan is to shoot it tomorrow as received from Cooper, with the HSM ammo and my scope mounted before using what is left of the bottle of DBC in the aluminum can.


Allen

Did she shoot?


Travis

Well

I ended up having to do things more important before flying to Rochester Sunday morning, still there, but if I get over the Jet lag I'll try and get a target with new holes this weekend.

I found some more brass ( ordered by phone yesterday) so if it shoots I'll be able to try to duplicate the HSM ammo, or load some suggestions from Friends :-)


Allen

What's the cleanest shooting powder that works well in the 17 Remington? TAC? Varget?

I bought a used Rem 700 Classic in .17 Rem about ten years ago and shot factory ammo. It was accurate for about twenty shots and then groups opened up very wide. I gave up and sold it. Today, with more knowledge of powders, coating and newer bullets, it probably would not be as much of a problem as it was for me then. I moved to the .223 AI, 20 Tactical and 20 Vartarg and never looked back. Sounds like maybe I should rethink the .17 calibers.

DakotaDeer,

I'm not done experimenting yet, but so far Benchmark and Big Game look good in the newer powders.

TAC is a little fast for the .17 Remington, but perfect for the .17 Fireball.

How about Varget? That should equal BG more or less in burning rate?

Benchmark has smaller kernels than Varget, so flows a little better through the tiny neck--which is why I'm fooling around with Big Game. It looks to be the right burn-rate and is clean-burning, and flows real well out of a powder measure.

So far the results are very good, though they're also good with Benchmark.

I've heard good things about Big Game from others when using 25 and especially 30 grain bullets like the Kindler Gold. I suppose I will have to try some, but my gun store won't stock Ramshot powders. I really want to get the 30 Kindlers working for this winter on coyotes.

If you buy an 8-pound jug on the Internet, the hzamat fee isn't too bad, especially since Ramshot powders usually cost less than most other rifle powders.

I guarantee you'll find other uses for Big Game than the .17 Remington. It works very well in a bunch of cartridges, just about anywhere H414 or IMR4350 works, but it burns cleaner and is less temp-sensitive than 414, and since it's a ball powder measures a hell of a lot easier than IMR4350. I use it in at least dozen cartridges from the .22-250 to 9.3x62.

How much do you think to fuel a 30 grain bullet?

The 17 Rem. is a great round.
My recipe is 30gr Berger Bullets and Vihtavuori N540.
Platform is a

Sorry, platform is a Remimgtom LVSF of course!
Huber

You're going to force me to deviate from 4320...


Travis

I'm not to sure I would deviate from 4320, especially pushing 25gr. pills. I will admit to using a lot of 8208 behind 25gr. bullets. I got real lucky and have a load with 4320 and one with 8208 that shoot to the same point of impact. That 8208 burns pretty clean too.
Big Game with 30gr. I've heard is a real winner and rates real high when using it in the 17-204, but me, I still use H414/W760 behind 30's. Guess I'm old fashion.

You must like to clean!

Granted, H414 is a bit dirty, but I have a lot of it and it is soooo accurate with the Nagel 30's. But, I don't generally shoot 30gr. out of my 17 Rem.
I don't find 8208 to be very dirty at all in my 17's using 25gr. bullets.

DakotaDeer,

Sorry not to respond quicker, but missed your post.

Haven't tried Big Game with 30's yet, but have gone up to 25 grains with 25-grain Bergers with no problems, so would look at 23-24 with 30's.

Big Game is similar in burn rate to H414/W760, though of course it's not exactly the same and the relationship will vary with the cartridge. Ramshot should be able to provide you with some guidelines as well.

Finally have the .17 shooting again and cleaned up 4 foxes on the weekend. The new load I settled on shoots to the same point as the old one above and now uses the following components;
Brass: Hornaday 204 ruger once fired. had to neck turn these as lowering the shoulder for the .17 caused a doughnut.
Powder: Benchmark 8208, 23g. 23.5 was flattening the primers too much, 24 pierced a primer!
Primer: The old CCI BR4's.
Projectile: Berger 25g hollow point. Waxed with Lee resizing lubricant.
Also used JB bore shine then bore bright.

Grouping consistently under 1/2" at 120m. (don't I just love being half metric & half imperial). Barrel is looking much cleaner. Tried to get hold of some DBC without any luck in Australia and the US shops won't ship over seas.



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James

I really like that setup. Glad you found a load yours likes.