Is there any reason to full length resize new brass? I've always done it but it seems that neck sizing or using a universal decapping die if you've got one, would be all that's necessary and save some time as the mfg. has already sized the case. Thanks.

I run the cases through without lube 99% of the time to make sure the neck is round. Very few times have I every found new brass that actually needed sizing before the first shot.

Depends on the brass mfg. Usually if using Norma, Nosler, or Lapua, I just load and shoot as they usually have very good uniformity out of the box. But have had some of them that werent(Norma USA) so ran em through a neck die.
If using Rem, WW, or such then I always neck size and depending on case uniformity which with bulk or bag brass can be really iffy. I sometimes run em through a full length die.
Its all individual preference and what you are trying to accomplish.

Swifty

How much time and effort does it save you guys using a neck sizer or a universal decapping over a FL die? It must save days.

Don't know how much time it saves but why get involved in a pointless exercise? If you're gonna F/L the brass, it has to be lubed. Then it has to be cleaned. Both of those things take time.
If you want to take it further, as you inspect each case for flaws, (which I assume everyone does) bump only the ones that seem out of round over the resizing ball.

Exactly.

I usually run new brass over the expander ball to make neck tension uniform, then load it and go shooting. With new brass this doesn't require any lube.

There are two potential downsides to FL resizing new brass. First, in standard dies the neck can be pulled out of round with the case body, and new brass is usually very straight. (Pushing the neck over an expander ball doesn't cause the same problem; it's only when pulling the neck back over an expander ball that problems can occur.)

Second, unless your dies are already adjusted to the headspace if your rifle, they can size new brass too short. This will cause case separations in a few reloadings. This is common when handloaders set FL dies according to the manufacturer's instructions, which usually suggest screwing-in the die until it contacts the shell-holder.

I've lost count of the number of times somebody's complained on the Campfire about case separations with new brass. In every instance they were FL resizing the brass, creating a little xcess headspace.

I do the same as Michigan Scot

I'm with MD and MS, with the caveat that you SHOULD inspect every case in new brass piles. Just a visual for anomalies. I keep a nail set handy and dented necks get a shove to make the opening round and ready for the expander.
Sizing is usually with a neck die, and I pay a lot of attention to the feel over the neck, for "same-same," "tight" and/or "loose." The idea is consistency over the long run without the voodoo of turning necks or other "fun."
Once I've done the necking/rounding, then I will chamfer all the necks before the first seat. You can either just kiss them by hand, or you can set up for a standard trim, which will also help you detect cases that are out of spec.
I suppose there might be times when FL is needed, but only if you run a short test (say 10-15 of the first cases in the batch) and find out your chambering is not as usual. Then the voodoo of finding the right die setting begins, but such is very unusual in this day and age, especially with new unfired brass.

I do it... just to eliminate any problems, which always seem to have my name at the top of the list...

but then again, I am not in a hurry when I hand load...

I sort of like to use handloading as an escape, the same why the wife likes to disappear from reality by watching the damned TV...

I at least neck size each one..., then bump the shoulder back with a body die... frequently...

but then I hard seem to be reloading much new brass in my life..

Definitely resize new brass since brass manufacturers don't know what they're doing.

Also, when you buy a box of cartridges, you should really disassemble them, check to make sure the powder charge is correct, weight the bullets to be sure the weights are right and resize those cases as well.

I FL resize all new bottle-neck cases.
If new straight-wall cases, I'll run them through the expander die and then the FL size.

Grumulkin,

Excellent advice, but you should also replace all the primers, as everybody knows ammunition manufacturers don't know how to make primers either.

This question gets asked more times than I can count and the above answers are usaually the same. The one answer I've yet to see is using a Siclair expanding die. Am I the only one here that has one with a set of mandrals for all calibers? MD, please chime in on such a valuable tool.

I'm sorry. You're right. I forgot that.

You two made my day ! E

You can stop doing that.

You're welcome.


Travis

No I won't - Thank you

Good to know there are people out there who stick to their principles.

Would appreciate hearing why you size 'em.

I reload for about a dozen calibers.

For about 3/4 of those, I neck size only, and/or bump back the shoulders as needed if bottleneck.

For others, I have surprisingly found better accuracy out of fully FL resized brass. This is especially the case in my Semi-auto's. I also have a 17 Fireball that shoots in the 3's but only if I FL resize the brass. My other Fireball like the brass neck sized only. Go figure. My .223 gets FL resized, and my RRA AR15 appreciates that as well.

So in these cases, for consistency's sake, I will Fl resize new brass out of the bag, and they DO resize. I can measure it, and it's clear the brass is being worked.

I have never had a case head separation in my life, by the way.

So for those who say FL resizing out of the bag is a waste, it's not for me.

Ok. Don't forget to clean the primer pockets before they get dirty.

Also, uniform the flash hole after each firing.


Travis

You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to uniform the flash holes BEFORE each firing.

Ed

As JB asked, what do you accomplish by F/L resizing brass that is, in all probability, undersized to begin with? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Shooter, I don't know your specific situation so bear with me.

If you have "always done it" and still have to ask this question, then you may not have the correct quality control, which can be needed for long range accuracy of varmint reloads. Also think it a possibility that you know of and have seen the most likely need to - Fix dents and out of round case necks which can be done with just neck sizing. Like I said don't know which is which for you.

Judging from your number of posts, I expect you're use to the BS comments from our arm chair QBs and can tell the wheat for the chaff. So I'll offer my procedure of checking out the quality control of new cases, assuming it will help:

Stand the cases in a loading tray and visually inspect the necks.
Get a dimensional drawing of the case.
Use a caliper gauge.
Measure the cases new, loaded and fired.
Keep good notes on your die setting, these checks/measurements and how they compare to the dimensional drawing.

This should help you find the answer to your question yourself. I realize this is more of a "method on how to fish" than a "fish dinner". But least you can avoid choking on the bits and pieces provided by deflave.

PS: Mule, hope this helps some with your question, too - If not PM me.

Here's some bits and pieces for you.

9.3X62 @ 100yds:



22-250 @ 650:



Call me crazy...


Travis

Yeah, Here's some for you, too!



And no crazy wasn't the word that came to mind Travis!

Awesome?


Travis

Handsome?


Travis

Ray,
You must forgive Travis as he realy truly does not know what he does or says.
He comes from the land where men are men, and the sheep are afraid. Of him especially!!
But then again so are the cows and horses !!!!!!

Swifty

Ray,

I have experimented with sizing brass considerably. While I've encountered many rifles that would shoot just as well with new brass (whether sized or unsized) as with fired brass that's been carefully sized, I've yet to encounter a rifle that shoots better with fully-sized new brass. So would appreciate hearing about your sizing techniques.

LOL Yeah Swifty,

I'm new here I so checked last 40 of deflave's posts. And you are correct deflave deserves more respect than I have shown him.



Mule,

However, I also don't wrestle with pigs! My offer to you for a PM was genuine - But your insistence is annoying and your mind seems closed like you already KNOW what's best for everyone.

Pretty classy. Gotta love a guy who can clean things up around here in 52 posts, give or take. Another Summer's Eve.

Ray,

Well, gee! I thought it was plain my question was in earnest.

I'm wasn't arguing, just relating my experiences--and asking about what techniques, dies, etc. you use. I'm always willing to learn.

If you prefer to PM me that would be great, but I thought if the discussion remained public we could all learn something.

Where's the eyes-rolling smiley thing?

Thanks Swifty?






Travis

Well, I'd appreciate hearing Ray's reasons for full-length re-sizing new brass too. I understand the reasons for rounding out the necks, but up until now, have never heard anyone articulate good reasons for sizing the case body so I'm all ears. You learn something new every day.

Damn Skippy, I thought I was gonna learn something. But the poster stands mute. I guess I'll have to go back to wrestling my pig.

Just don't let 'im get behind you......

smoke,

I've worked with manufacturing quality control and process control for many years. And tend not to trust anybody's elses quality control when it comes to my reloading. That's why I answered the OP's question with a procedure he could do for himself (and so can you).

I use seafire's earlier post, whom I know from another forum, as an example. John says, He FL resizes just to eliminate any problems. He also mentions he doesn't get in a hurry. You can read between the lines some wisdom there - Take time to eliminate problems and don't try someone else's shortcut.

I do it to start out with new cases that's passed through MY DIE not some manufacturer's that I didn't see what they did. And by taking good measurements, see all is OK from the get-go. Yeah, I've seen out-of round case necks, dented cases, cases that needed trimed, LOL - case mouths that looked like they were cut with a hacksaw, non-concentic flash holes, etc. But no one here has or will ever see "it all".

So a good reloading quality procedure that will tend to eliminate problems and find one of these "ain't never seen that before" issues is better IMO. And its better to understand this process and to find these for yourself.

I didn't start a discussion with mule when he began to put words in my mouth regarding "I've yet to encounter a rifle that shoots better with fully-sized new brass. So would appreciate hearing about your sizing techniques." Although I agree that accuracy is not as good from a new cases as a one-fired neck-sized case - Hell I never said anything like he's talking on accuracy. So If you want a discussion on the pros and cons of whatever he thinks is best - Talk to him.

Sounds like you're reporting all the cats that AREN'T lost. Don't get me wrong, you can use whatever method you wish to reload. You can spend all the time you wish measuring stuff and seeing just how long you can prolong a fairly simple process. I have no quarrel with that. Your time is your own and you can value it however you wish.
I think most of the folks that have been around here for a while understand there is a fine line between reloading ammo and piddling around in the shop.
Back to the pig. She is one good looking durock.

You are quite welcome. Anything else I can do for ya. Just trying to help.


Swifty

No beeman, come back down to earth - Time wise, all that's involved is:

How much time does it take you to neck size 50 cases vs to FL resize 50 cases?

Please see the first post I made.
And FWIW, my feet are firmly on the ground. And to coin a phrase that is ever so much more appropo than your pig wrestling comment, "This ain't my first rodeo", if it looks like bullshit, and smells like bullshit, ergo it is bullshit. I just shredded your comments and I'm gonna mulch them around my roses. I should be able to grow some prize winners don'tcha reckon?
Tell me something Mr QC expert, have you ever blackened a new case and ran it thru "YOUR" dies to see if the case is even coming into contact with "your" die? That brings to mind the question, how are "YOUR" dies different than say, mine, or anyone else's?

Well I aready did see where 17ACKLEYBEE asked you that question. You hem-hawed around then but did answer the question then kinda like your doing now. That's what I meant by "back to earth".

Thanks for the explanation Ray. I understand how you can round out a case neck by running it up into the die and over the expander, but you don't need to FL size for that. And I understand how inspecting and measuring your cases can show you if things are out of whack or if your cases need to be trimmed.

But I don't understand how FL sizing helps with those? Are you saying that you remove dents in the case by FL sizing? Which problems do you fix by cranking the die down so it's bumping the shoulder? That's my question.

OK, Think all the various discussions has kinda mixed-up issues.

I trim after sizing whether I'm FL or neck sizing. So its just my sequence there to trim after sizing.

I didn't say I FL sized to bump back the case should - That must have come from someone else?

One thing about FL sizing brand new brass -- you have to lube it, which means you have to CLEAN it. That right there is a time hog.

Well, that's probably the source of the confusion. When you said you "FL sized" your brass, I just assumed that you didn't back off the die. I understand that strictly speaking you can't neck size only with an FL die, but I guess I don't consider it FL sizing either if you back off the die so it doesn't contact the shoulder.

I necksize using a fl die quite often.....

You fellas is crazy. Clean it? That's what chamber pressure and heat is for.


Travis

Technically speaking, no.

I just wipe it. Kinda like I do my butt. But with my other hand. Sometimes.

Just a quick question, but Why would you have to lube the case if new?

If as by beeman " As JB asked, what do you accomplish by F/L resizing brass that is, in all probability, undersized to begin with? Inquiring minds would like to know."
Factory brass when new if everything was correct should work in 99.99% of the weapons it is for use in.

If this is the case, then the brass when new should be sized under minimum specs for the chambering (i.e a match or BR chamber).
This being case then lube wouldnt need to be used as most standard dies are designed to take the brass back to minimum spec sizing to a certain degree. If this is so, then there should be at least a .001 to.0005 free gap in between the brass and the die so then there should be little if any resistance to the brass moving into the die except when it rounds out the neck. Also there should be no bumping of the shoulder due to the die being set to bring it back to minimum since it is undersized?

Swifty

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Awwww cmon , where are these guys to debate the question?????

Swifty

Remind me if we ever meet to shake hands lefty. Assuming you're right-handed.

Would be my pleasure, but must warn you I am ambidextrous, so which hand I use depends on my mood.



Guess I will have to take up pig wrestling to learn something new.

Swifty

Swifty, any time I use an FL die and I'm going "all the way," I'll make sure the brass is wet, new or not. Lube and clean is a time hog, but not lubing, and stuffing a dry case in -- and it's out of spec -- now THERE's a time hog.
But I only FL if I HAVE to, new or not.

Wasnt really picking on you, but I see we now have a winner which I highlighted. This actually goes back to my first post.
When using quality brass that you pay double the per piece price, then actually finding one that is out of spec is kinda rare. I did run into some Norma for my Swift that wasnt really up to what I expect from them in the neck area as the chamfer wasnt very good, and had some out of round also. So they got necked.
But when it comes to bag brass I have found variations of +- .007 in the headspace, and length out of a 10% sampling. If the variations are this much then its FL time, as its more of a waste of time & resources in my situation to use something that I know will not give the results that I am looking for, and the fact that my target rifles will give me .25 or better for 5 shots using Norma, Nosler, Lapua or brass that is consistently within +- .001 or better in those areas.
Secondly if lube has to be used on new brass, this means you are actually having to work the brass, meaning that it is out of spec. so yes I do lube when the sampling is as bad as mentioned above. I have also used a FL die without lube on new brass when a Neck die for that caliber was not in my possesion but the brass was in spec with no problems.
As far as a time hog of lubing and cleaning,never even thought of it as I just size, throw em in the tumbler and do something else for awhile. Plus I have never even considered my time as Seafire said its a relaxing hobby.
And I like to Piddle. I have piddled to the right, piddled to the left, piddled in the middle. But I have never piddled into the wind as it can get rather damp and messy.

Swifty

Only necksizing is necessary, with a die that has an expander ball......to make necks round and the right size. That's all.

Guess I'm just dense but why a universal decapping die on new unfired brass ?

Where did I say anything about a universal decapping die?

I said it in my initial post and can't say why I'd mention using a universal decapper on new brass. Brain fart's probably it.

Sorry Ackman, comment wasn't directed at you. My mistake. Decapping die was mentioned earlier in the thread.

I think there may be several reasons to run the brass thru an FL die before loading an shooting them for the first time. As mentioned before, some of the necks may be out of round; pushing a bullet into a neck like that is no big deal if it's a boattail, but a flat base bullet may be deformed or the case may be ruined if the neck is out of round (squished). Also, I get the feeling from some of the postings on this thread that hurrying up to get ammo loaded and get out to the range outweighs good reloading practices. Hear me out...if you don't take time to inspect your cases, you may be letting yourself in for some issues. I have found brass from a major manufacturer where 6 out of 100 cases did not have the flash holes drilled--no big problem except you might get a lot of time invested in trying to figure out why your rounds did not fire when the primer went pffft. In another instance, I found 2 brand new cases with split necks in a pack of 50. Granted, no big deal: shoot them in your rifle, but I won't shoot them in mine if I have a choice...which I do. It only takes a minute to do things right. If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you find time to do it right later? Just sayin.....
BTW, on the flash hole issue, I called the company to inform them of the lot number in the event they might want to rectify my problem or warn others of any issues. They were totally non-plussed and matter-of-fact about the problem and didn't even offer an apology or offer to replace the bad brass. I don't buy their products any more. Large company too busy to be bothered with some dink in MT. They still make rifles in a 700 model designation, fwiw.

A neck die will correct the problems you mentioned. No need for a FL die to correct neck issues. Chamfer/deburr the necks and load. A neck die will also inform you of missing flash holes. Remington is not the only company that have missed flash holes.Rick.

Your first sentence is highlighted because I had an experience yesterday that pretty well proves to me the futility of FL sizing new brass (which I already was convinced of anyway).

I was prepping a new batch of .243 cases yesterday in anticipation of a new rifle arriving soon. I run them through a Lee collet neck die to round out case mouths, several of them were dented slightly which is normal with new brass. Running them over an expander ball works but I like to go ahead and run them all the way into the Lee die since it squeezes the necks and they definitely come out round.

They all went through just fine except for one that got stuck in the die - really stuck. I had to take the die apart to get it unstuck. Examining the case I saw the shoulder and neck were totally wonky. The body/shoulder junction is "soft", the shoulder/neck junction is too low and the neck length is too long. So I ran it through a Redding body die screwed down to touch the shellholder, figuring that would sharpen up the shoulder. Nada. Didn't touch it.

So I got out the Redding FL die, screwed it down to touch the shellholder and ran the case through that. Again, nada. Neither die did anything to reshape or push back the shoulder at all. Here is the offending case on the left after being run through two separate sizing dies meant to reform the body and shoulder. That bright ring at the base of the neck was caused by the Lee collet in case anyone is wondering and which is why it got stuck in the Lee die in the first place. The case on the right is a normal .243 from the same bag to show the difference - it has only been run through a Lee collet neck die.



The cases lined up in case someone would question that. Those extractor grooves are the same even though the left one looks different in the light.



Since the dies didn't touch the shoulder the headspace on this case would still let it fit in a .243. I'll have to verify that when the rifle gets here. Obviously I'll have to shorten the neck some to prevent any problems there.

I know what this tells me but others are free to draw their own conclusions.