fast twist 223 or 6x45?

223ai with 53 gr vmax

+1.......

my 223AI has a -0- @ 300 w/53 V max

plain 223 will work fine....boolits are cheaper than 6mm

At that range a standard 223 will get it done just fine.
Hornady V-Max or Nosler B.T. bullets in the weight that your gun shoots most accurately work well, as will many other bullets.

.223 slamo Dunko...

yes 8 or 9 twist 223

Regular 223 with 12 or faster twist will do you just fine if it is your first PD rifle.
Once you are familiarized with the .223, its goods (many) and bads (few), then you can decide the next toy in your cabinet.

as will a 17 hornet.....

Yep, or .17 Fireball, .22 Hornet loaded with plastic-tip 40's, .221 Fireball, .204 Ruger, and a host of wildcats in the same general range.

Anymore I regard the standard .223 as on the heavy side for 300-yard PD shooting--and most humans can't hit 'em consistently much farther than that, in average conditions.

Who'da thunk it?......

I didn't believe that Mule Deer guy, so's I took the 17 fireball for a spin a while ago. Shaaaazzzzaaammm....The furball really will do it at 300.. Well, I be dammed.....

Huntsman, you and your 17s are a bad influence!
Mule Deer too, trouble!

Now I'm thinking I need something different too, maybe a 20VarTarg.
Hey, it's 300 yds or less.

20 Vartarg

CZ American in 223 would be my first choice, but I probably prefer a lighter gun than most and I have other guns to shoot and if you don't, remember that barrel will heat up very quickly. Or if you don't care if you burn the throat out of a barrel in a few days of shooting, you can buy new takeoffs for ~$75 and have a gunsmith change them out for fairly cheap when you get home.

The CZ in 223 or 204 in varmint weight will give you substantially more range than 300 yards, either will work just fine. The 223 varmint weight guns have a faster twist than the American and in my opinion the 204 needs the barrel length of the varmint over the American.

Actually, I don't know where I stand on the CZ American in 204, mine does not give me the velocities I was looking for out of the shorter barrel on the American. Just because I haven't really warmed to it doesn't mean that it isn't something to look at. I have had it five years and don't use it enough to have a valid opinion. If you are interested in looking at that option, ask around. I think if I spent more time with it, and less out hunting it might just pan out to be as good as anything and better than most. But make sure you get valid opinions.

17 caliber rifles are not going to cut it in the wind on the high desert in Montana where I shoot prairie dogs. I have a 17 Rem and it is plenty accurate, but the wind will kill you. I shoot more rock chucks with it than prairie dogs for exactly that reason, although the wind blows up the coulees of central and eastern Washington too. The 17 is only going to be good for a few hours in the morning where I shoot, because that is the only time the wind is not blowing pretty stiff.

All of the above being said, a Howa is a good gun too if you are just getting going and want to stay with a relatively inexpensive gun to start out with. If you want to spend more, the options are almost endless. I don't care for Savage rifles, but a lot of people like them just fine.

JDhasty,

I don't know what loads you're comparing to your .17 Remington, but with a 25-grain V-Max at 4000 fps a .17 Remington will drift noticeably less in the wind than a .223 with a 50-grain V-Max even at 400 yards. And there isn't enough difference in wind drift between a .17 Fireball with a 20 at 4000-4100 and a .223 with a 50 to tell at 300-400.

I live in Montana so do most of my prairie dog shooting here, and to beat the fast .17's, it takes something more wind-resistant than a typical .223 with 50-grain bullets.

the main thing about shooting pd's is to shoot the lightest recoil rifle/caliber.... so... you can watch the impacts. If you can't see the impacts... what's the fun of shooting them

I did this very thing last weekend in wind swept Wyoming, my favorite combo for 300yd pd's is a 222 with 40gr Blitzkings

I shoot a 22 L.R. out to 300 yards on prairie dogs, though a bit more horsepower is preferable past 150 yards.

My current favorite is a 223 AI loaded down to 22 Hornet levels with 40 grain Ballistic Tips. It satisfies the 3 bears scenario of not little and not too much... it's just right. Also works nicely for fireforming brass.

Yeah, I have a Blue Dot formula for that. Like having a hot, ACCURATE Hornet.
John is, as usual, right. But I will still stick with a .223 for the central rifle in the varmint quiver. I have a Fireball for a bit less, and a 22BR for a little more. Just depends on what's out in front, I guess.

Fair enough. My 17 Rem is a H&R Ultra Wildcat and although it sports a 1:10 twist it will not shoot 25 grain Vmax at all. They keyhole and I'm lucky to hit an 8.5x11 target twice out of ten shots at a hundred yards.

Actually the bullets I shoot are not even as slippery as the current Hornaday HPs, they are the last of about three thousand of the Hornaday/Remington 25 grain HPs that Remington used to sell bulk packed in lots of 500.

So I would also apply my advice regarding the 204 CZ American to the 17 then, and get more than one opinion. But that being said you would not want a gun like my Ultra Wildcat that weighs about five pounds. You would burn the throat out of it in a good day of shooting.

So now the new 17 Hornet and maybe the 17WSM are fast enough to buck prairie winds? I'm either adding a 204Ruger or a 17 Hornet to the options.
Mule Deer and others let me know.

you need both. The Hornet AND the 204.... What's with this 'either/or' bullchit?>

17 Fire Ball

I'm a big fan of the 204 with 40 grain VMAX loads. Hunted in WY this summer and didn't notice any issues with excess drift.

To clarify, I have a 22 Hornet and two 17HMR's already.
I have a lot of .204 bullets and brass but intrigued by the 17WSM. Maybe I answered my question already in a time of brass of bullet shortages.

I just stick with my .223 Savage and .22-250 Kimber. I want a CZ in .17 Hornet, though....

If I was just buying and owning one, though, it'd probably be a .204.

I guess I am just too fuddy or old school, I prefer the 222 myself. I don't really see a better option for varmints and yote sized game!! I live variety and rifles though, so I'll keep adding to the collection!

Calif. Hunter,

Before plastic-tip bullets became commonplace, I used to bring a .223 and a .22-250 or .220 Swift on prairie dog shoots, but the bullets of the day had pretty sad ballistic coefficients. The hollow-points were a little better, but didn't open up like soft-points.

These days I find the .17 Hornet and .204 with plastic-tips will do the same things on PD's a .223 and .22-250 used to, but with less powder and less recoil.

Thanks for the response, Mr. B. For years, I used the 50 gr Speer TNTs in my .223 and it was all I seemed to need for most CA ground squirrel shooting. Then I won the .22-250 Kimber at a FNRA dinner and started loading it with V-Maxs and Ballistic Tips. I had a helluva time getting the gun to shoot and finally got "OK" accuracy with H-414 and 5o g plastic tips. It just took a while ( a couple hundred rounds) to shoot in, I guess, as it suddenly started shooting much better. Then I switched (upon reading your remarks) to Big Game and the rifle started shooting the same 50 gr bullets into one hole. I now use 40 gr plastic tips in the .223.

But I sure want a CZ Varmint in .17 Hornet...

Here is my son with "our" Kimber -

[img:center]http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx74/vanstra1/MichaelampKimber.jpg?t=1374543942[/img]

I suspect you would like the .17 Hornet!

The .17 Fireball is a good one too, for taking a step down from the .204 and .223.

I bought a 17 fireball last winter, love that little rifle. I shoot a lot of sage rats. I shoot rats with 17fb,17rem, 204ruger, 221fb, 222rem, 223rem and 22-250rem. Since I got the 17fb it gets the most use, lol my other rat guns are getting jealous. I guess I better buy a 17 hornet to give the 17fb a rest lol. Ed

I also like the 17 FB, but am actually "downgrading" a bit with my next build to the 17 VHA.

m s s,

Yeah, I ended up with an extra .17 Fireball barrel for my 700 for when the first one starts to go south, just because I use it so much!

sscoyote,

I shot a .17 VHA some this spring and it works real well. But the gap it plugged between the .17 HMR and the .17 Fireball is filled just as well with the .17 Hornet. Though right now brass for the .17 VHA might be more easily available!

I'm not sure there were ever any more worthy 300 yardish prairie dog bullets ever designed than the 17 cal. V-Max's.

They're pretty darn good, that's for sure!

The 20-grain tipped Nosler Varmageddon is also very accurate and explosive. The hollow-point version doesn't open up as violently, but still works OK.

with the exception of the standard hornet they all do fine at 300. 223 would be my recommendation except for the shortage of brass and bullets so I have migrated to 20 cal

I have yet to own any wildcats, lol I am sure I will. I love my two 17's, like my 204 and my various 22 cals. Not a PDog shooter as we don't have them here. Shoot a lot of sagerats. Love shooting 250 plus on yardage. Probably the 22-250 is my long distance gun, 350 to 400 yds, lol seem to hit them little buggers with the others as well. Ed

rainierrifleco,

Actually, the .22 Hornet does pretty well at 300--with plastic-tipped 40's and a longer barrel. My Ruger No. 1B gets around 3100 fps from 40-grain Ballistic Tips, V-Maxes and Blitzkings, and does well out at 300. That's about the limit, though.

Of course, most Hornets don't have 26" barrels, and most repeaters don't have long enough magazines to use plastic-tipped 40's.

I have really enjoyed my CZ 527 varmint in 223. I have yet to find a bullet that I couldn't get to shoot extremely well. Also for a factory trigger it is very difficult to beat.

I started shooting prairie dogs in 1949 with a 22 RF rifle. Since then I have used 17 HM2, 17 HMR, 17 Fireball, 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 22 WMR, 22 Hornet, 221 Fireball, 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250 Rem, 220 Swift, 243 Win , and some big game rifles to shoot p dogs. But if I could have only one rifle , it would be chambered for the 204 Ruger. But I do have a CZ Varmint 17 Hornet rifle on order. Any small bore center fire rifle with a good scope that will shoot 1/2 inch five shot 100 yard groups is fun for shooting p dogs at 300 yards when one knows how to hold into the wind.

We don't get much range up this way 100 to 150 yards are a long shot but for coyotes I like my cz 527 American with a Nikon M233 scope it pull 3/4 groups at 100 yds

I have a CZ 527 American in .223 - not the varmint model - and it shoots amazingly well. It makes for a great, light walking around varmint rifle. That's why I'd like to get a Varmint model in .17 Hornet. I'd be very happy if it shot as well as that lightweight CZ.

Maybe it's age or perhaps I am capable of learning. For whatever reason I am gravitating toward smaller rounds in my dotage (61).

Several years back I bought a 700 Classic in .221 Fireball. This rifle is wonderfully accurate, easy to tote around and has plenty of thump when need arises. Not sure if it is the shootability (is that a word?) or what, but nowdays I get a bigger kick out of stuffing my pockets full of rounds and setting off on foot in search of varmints of opportunity than I do sitting at a bench, big boomer in the bags and spotting scope stuck to my eye.

I can see a .17 Hornet, probably a single shot, in my future.

Don't not look at a CZ in 22 Hornet. Mine shoots a 40 gr Vmax at north of 3200 fps and that is across two Oehler chronographs. Accurate as hell too.

Standard 223 would be fine at 300 yds I like 50 gr for the wind.
20 tac ....just shoot the fur..

That's fun ain't it

Using the 223, with a stiff charge of H 322 or H 4198, with a 53 grain V Max, I have been impressed on how flat shooting it is..

its easily a 300 to 400 yd prairie dog set up....

I had a 17 AI put together a few years ago, no problem getting to 300 on up to 400 with good results.

Last week I sited I my new CZ Mdl 527 Varmint 17 Hornet rifle w/ Leopold 4-12 X 40 MM AO scope using Hornady 20 Gr ammo. Whats not to like about a rifle that shoots sub 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards off a bench rest ? I ll be shooting five of ten boxes of Hornady ammo at prairie dogs before I start reloading ammo. I have a number of varmint rifles but this spring the 17 Hornet will be the one I use the most. In the past I have said when you come out to prairie dog country you would be well equipped with a 17 HMR and .204 Ruger varmint rifle but I may be adding the 17 Hornet. Prairie dogs get muzzle blast smart so I like low muzzle blast and recoil rifles.

+1 - you wont regret it

+2 20VT

I gotta agree with this, much wisdomo...

The .223 probably is the most logical solution for somebody who wants only one prairie dog rifle. Or two in the same chambering--which isn't a bad idea.

But that's sort of like saying the .30-06 is the most logical all-around big game cartridge for the Lower 48. But it's not the rifle loony answer, because it's too boring.

.20 Vartarg.

Tony.

I just wish we had PD's around to shoot.

So many great choices the 223 is probably one of the best out there.
If you're into reloading one of my favorites is the 19 Calhoon created by James Calhoon from Montana, 22 hornet necked down to 19 caliber. Calhoon offers a good selection including 27, 32, 36, and 40 grain bullets. The 27 grain flies about 3,600 fps and the 32 grainer about 3,300 fps, very accurate cool shooting P-dog cartridge. He does a 19/223 that's a real screamer too.

Here ya go for cheap......





Tula Steel Cases ( range pick up)
Rem 6 1/2 primers
14 Grains of Blue Dot ( 500 cases per 1 pound of powder)
Win 46 grain HP ( purchased back when, for $122.00 for 2,000....3000 fps)


Recent Dissatisfied Customers: April 8, 2014 Klamath County OR

100 Yds:





175 to 200 yards or so:





Equipment:

Model 70 Featherweight in 223, 3 x 9 Weaver
Toyota Mobile Shooting Rest...

For PD's to 300yds, either one. You can kill prairie dogs with most anything, but there's killing and then there's gutpiling, then there's explosive launching. My shooting partner killed one at 230yd with a 17M2, but it just fell over. I've shot truckloads of them with 22Mag at 50 and 75yds and they gutpile ok, but at 240yds again they just fall over. Nothing to see. The 17Ah is great at close range but not real exciting at 250 or so. I've killed more truckloads with the 221FB out to about 200 and it worked fine, but I like bigger explosions. You can blow the crap out of them with larger cased rounds like 22-250, but the gun gets hot much quicker and you need to have at least a couple backup guns if there are lots of targets.

For what you're wanting the 223 case is a good choice. Enough powder for enough velocity to make them explode at closer range, and gutpile nicely out at 300. But not so much powder as to make the gun heat up or foul real quick. In 223 I shoot 50's and some 40's......mine are 14twist and even at 223 velocity the long Sierra 55Blitzking is very accurate. With a 6/223 I'd shoot 55's-60's.....the Sierra 60HP is explosive and very acccurate and should be cheaper than the plastic tipped bullets.

Fast twist 1-10 and faster twist in a 223 barrel are used to shoot the heavy 60 and above grain bullets . The bullet drop of the heavy bullets would be more than a 53 grain V Max at 300 yards but would be better for 600 yards shots. I do not have reloading data about the 6X45 MM round . But either rifle that shoot 1/2 inch 100 yard groups are good for 300 Yd p dog shooting. If you are only going to shoot p dogs , get an accurate 204 Ruger rifle .

Seafire what kinda mileage do you get from your mobile shooting rest?? Thanks for your time. Cheers NC