So, I got a call tonight, from a well known poster, who bought a rifle from me back in November 2014. He said that he finally got around to shooting the rifle that he bought from me. The rifle was an H&R Trapdoor 45-70 carbine, which I believe was previously unfired, or at least fired very little by the looks of things.
Anyway, he said that the first shot was fine, but on the 2nd shot, the action came open. He then asked me what I planned to do about it?? He feels that it is my responsibility to refund his money after 4 months?? He says that I purposely sold him a defective rifle?? Really? I told him that I would gladly have refunded his money after a reasonable amount of time if he was not happy, but I am not responsible after 4 months.
I have no idea what ammo he was using (Buffalo Bore?) in a 140 year old rifle design that is well known as a very weak action in the first place. A little research would show that this was a common problem with these rifles, and there are fixes available.
So, am I responsible after 4 months??
I guess it doesn't hurt for him to try. He has nothing to lose.
I would say no, even a retail store wouldn't honor anything after 4 months!
I would say no, after 4 months he!! no. I give a 3 day inspection (non firing) time limit starting from the day it is delivered, which is verified by the tracking number.
After he accepts rifle through FFL background check, the rifle is his. No returns, no refunds. Any issues he can go to OEM or nearest gunsmith. Same as all gun shops.
If you manufactured the rifle, you would have some interest in the issue. What ammo he shot in it is out of your control and since you didn't make the gun Craigster needs to pursue a differ course with this.
You have absolutely no responsibility in this, wish him well with a clear conscience...
I don't want this to be strictly my side of the story, so I PM'd him a link to this thread.
Had the same thing happen with another douchenozzle on here. Held it forever, then all of a sudden it doesn't shoot and it's my problem. Sorry, but no dice!
It's a known problem with all HR Handis. I've had a brand-new 243 do that too. It can be fixed quite easily with a little buffing/polishing.
No, it's not your problem now.
It's not a Handi Rifle, it's an H&R copy of the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield 45/70 carbine. A much weaker design than the Handi Rifle even.
His responsibility in the receipt of the firearm was to verify it's integrity and function within a reasonable time , NOT 120 days ; End of story !
the trapdoor is also a easy fix!
refer him to me. I might be interested if he wants to get out of it.
I have no idea what ammo he was using (Buffalo Bore?) in a 140 year old
This says it all right here, at least to me. You have no control over that, and obviously shooting Buffalo Bore, or juiced up handloads in that trapdoor action is a recipe for disaster. I'm not saying that's what happened, but how are you to know?
You've got a clear conscience.
If you sold the rifle in "as-is" condition and offered a clearly defined inspection period with the option to return the item prior to him/her filing the proper paperwork through their FFL you have nothing to worry about.
Since you are a member primarily to use the classifieds, you might want to give your methods extra scrutiny.
Since you are a member primarily to use the classifieds, you might want to give your methods extra scrutiny.
Hey PAL, you might want to take another look at my post history before you open your mouth.
Sold a rifle "as is" on GB a couple of years ago. The new owner contacts me over a month later saying the rifle has an issue and the factory doesn't service them anymore. Was looking for me to pay for the repairs. I offered to refund his price and he could ship the rifle back to me covering the expenses. Never heard back from him again...
Lesson learned, some buyers are just looking for some money back on a purchase.
Please, I certainly did look at a long list of classified posts, not your entire history. Just saying, someone so active in our classifieds might hold himself to a higher level than to bushwhack his buyer in a preemptive strike.
Callout threads are never good for the OP. Buf, I believe you are right in the transaction, but I'm sure the current thread could have been better handled.
A much weaker design than the Handi Rifle even.
old rifle design that is well known as a very weak action in the first place. A little research would show that this was a common problem with these rifles
I'm sure this was disclosed prior to the sale; and even written in the add.
Oh poop
A much weaker design than the Handi Rifle even.
old rifle design that is well known as a very weak action in the first place. A little research would show that this was a common problem with these rifles
I'm sure this was disclosed prior to the sale; and even written in the add.
Oh poop If I have to explain to you that a Volkswagen Beetle isn't a good choice to tow a 10,000 pound trailer, maybe you shouldn't be towing a trailer...
Non disclosure is deceitful, conniving,and fraudulent. You're off to ignore land.
Non disclosure is deceitful, conniving,and fraudulent. You're off to ignore land.
Wow, there are some true characters here. Your cabin fever should be ending pretty soon. The beautiful sun is gonna shine again in Alaska in a couple of months.
what non disclosure? wow didnt realize i had to list what pressure loads must be used in the old guns i sell....fug me if you buy a 150 year old design and think you can hot rod it your an idiot.....well known that trapdoors are weaker, its why they have their own data in reloading manuals....i hear/read the term "trapdoor level loads" fairly often
If you knew as much about guns as you know about pot, you'd know that rifle isn't 150 years old.
If its a piece of [bleep], spell it out in the add prior to sale. The add sure didn't say that.
I have no idea what ammo he was using (Buffalo Bore?)
and you jumped to conclusions about the ammo used. This is the sellers excuse for a non functioning weapon.
Ask your self what would safari man do?
question does this mean if i ever sell my Marlin Guide Gun to cover my arse i must put "gun can not handle loads designed for the Ruger #1"? its not like this is a heavily modified action made weaker or even an obscure single shot.....trapdoors are well known quantities *IF* Craigster shot heavy loads in it thats no ones fault but his own for not taking 30 seconds to learn bout the gun he bought.....
im guessing there is some other issue at play but even so 4 months is well beyond any implied warrenty.....no one in their right mind should be considered having to be held to it in any sale like this....phug me i could buy a rifle off here, take it hunting if im careful and call the seller after the season and claim there is a problem....if you want some sort of warranty part of that is you testing in a prompt manner....
watch4bear, Please put me back on ignore. I like your drunk azz better that way.
If you knew as much about guns as you know about pot, you'd know that rifle isn't 150 years old.
If its a piece of [bleep], spell it out in the add prior to sale. The add sure didn't say that.
I have no idea what ammo he was using (Buffalo Bore?)
and you jumped to conclusions about the ammo used. This is the sellers excuse for a non functioning weapon.
the basic design is from 1865, 150 years....modern metalurgy isnt gonna increase its strength any.....
metalurgy LOL...LOL
...
I have no idea what ammo he was using (Buffalo Bore?)
and you jumped to conclusions about the ammo used. This is the sellers excuse for a non functioning weapon.
It was a misdirection to place the buyer at fault and throw doubt on his character.
...
I have no idea what ammo he was using (Buffalo Bore?)
and you jumped to conclusions about the ammo used. This is the sellers excuse for a non functioning weapon.
It was a misdirection to place the buyer at fault and throw doubt on his character.
Was it really? Your reading comprehension continues to amaze me.
It was a misdirection to place the buyer at fault and throw doubt on his character.
If only his adds were that transparent.
what non disclosure? wow didnt realize i had to list what pressure loads must be used in the old guns i sell....fug me if you buy a 150 year old design and think you can hot rod it your an idiot.....well known that trapdoors are weaker, its why they have their own data in reloading manuals....i hear/read the term "trapdoor level loads" fairly often
Rattler is correct.
Watch4Bear, We are supposed to say in our ad "This rifle sucks" ???
after 4 months I think it is not your problem. Its a casual sale
I wondered where he'd gotten off to. Still got that popcorn addiction, too.
Bufaf,
I logged in to reply to this non-sense.
However, I see I have you on ignore already.
You are clearly irresponsible.
All I know is that I've never had to ask for others opinions on how I should handle a transaction. I know how to handle them and can't imagine bringing it up.
Seems 2 men can work it out and figure out what was, wasn't fired in said rifle.
I don't have 3 days inspection periods, if the FFL transferred it rules or any rules. Men need to work things out as men.
I have a couple of the H&R 1873 Officer Model trapdoor reproductions. When those rifles were made back in the early to mid-1970s, it was generally recognized that while the materials that H&R used to build them might be stronger than the originals, the design was still weak and that fact needed to be taken into account when reloading. When those rifles were originally sold, the only common factory ammo available was the mild 405 grain FP at 1,300+/- fps.
Buffalo Bore obviously recognized that their +P 45-70 ammo would be unsafe in some actions, so there is a warning printed on the box label that lists the makes/models of rifles that their 45-70 factory loads are intended for. There are no trapdoor Springfields, original or reproductions, on that list.
Once bought a 24" 243 barrel from a "member" here, changed directions, resold in same packaging. New Buyer is like dude it's 22" - man that is low and I'm like uh uh and figured original seller would at least offer to buy it back, yeah it had been a couple months. Nope, nada and he was a dick about it to top it off. Since found out he's a retail "businessman". That explained his lack of owning up to his error. Purely out to profit. Something about 30day expiration... When I see his many ads I feel like posting asking if he'll guarantee the length, size, caliber, CCs or whatever. Anyways, it wasn't some POS trapdoor, this seller has no obligation but also needn't post here about it. Buffalo Bore? Who'd a thunk...
After 4 months of owning the rifle the buyer should be ashamed of evening contacting the seller expecting a refund or money back for any reason.
After 4 months of owning the rifle the buyer should be ashamed of evening contacting the seller expecting a refund or money back for any reason.
+1 on this
Five pages and I still don't know who the buyer was.
Five pages and I still don't know who the buyer was.
Craigster
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9319899/Re:_FS_H&R_Trapdoor_Sp#Post9319899
Five pages and I still don't know who the buyer was.
Its some guy who thought he bought a gem, but whacked his pud for 4 months before finding out he had a dud.
free bump
this may of summed up the whole matter up
I got over seller's remorse a long time ago. Now, buyers remorse is a whole different matter, like in "why the hell did I buy this? "
After 4 months of owning the rifle the buyer should be ashamed of evening contacting the seller expecting a refund or money back for any reason.
Yep!
I have an old 22 that has run out of ammo, can I return it for a refund? I've only had it 40 yrs or so.
After 4 months of owning the rifle the buyer should be ashamed of evening contacting the seller expecting a refund or money back for any reason.
Well said...and then we have the usual village idiots pound on the seller.
These call-outs get old, but it is nice to know who/what is out there. It makes one appreciate the 95% good guys around here that know how to conduct business.
Bufaf, Why did you air this out in the classifieds? Craigster is always easy to talk to and deal with, in my experiences. It's looks like your trying to let everyone else run him down, to make you feel better - I hope this is not the case. Only you know the truth and the right thing to do in this matter. Man up and do something, one way or the other.
Well jeeze, the rifle was either unfired or fired very little; what do you expect?
Besides, the add clearly stated the rifle was in excellent condition.
Just because the action pops open when shot should be expected on this model.
Once bought a 24" 243 barrel from a "member" here, changed directions, resold in same packaging. New Buyer is like dude it's 22" - man that is low and I'm like uh uh and figured original seller would at least offer to buy it back, yeah it had been a couple months. Nope, nada and he was a dick about it to top it off. Since found out he's a retail "businessman". That explained his lack of owning up to his error. Purely out to profit. Something about 30day expiration... When I see his many ads I feel like posting asking if he'll guarantee the length, size, caliber, CCs or whatever. Anyways, it wasn't some POS trapdoor, this seller has no obligation but also needn't post here about it. Buffalo Bore? Who'd a thunk...
Sooo you bought a barrel , didn't open the package , sold it to someone else without verifying it was even a barrel , TWO MONTHS later ? haahhahahahaha and then wanted to return it ?
hahahhahahaha
you and the 45/70 buyer should become buddies !
yea I'm the guy you trashed when I told the truth about the offshore junk Leupold's putting in their scopes and their lack of quality control , as posted by prominent members of this forum .
oregontripper , what are you trippin' on ?
Looks like Craigster took the high road on this thread regardless of the two distinguished members who chose to reveal his identity.. One question for the seller... Why did you not state that this was a repro rifle in your original for sale add? Do you think that is something everyone knows or takes for granted? And how do you know that a Buffalo Bore Cartridge was ever fired in this rifle?
Who in their right mind waits 4 months to fire a newly acquired gun? That's like going on a honeymoon and not.... well its just not natural.
You didn't take a harem on your honeymoon, did you?
One question for the seller... Why did you not state that this was a repro rifle in your original for sale add? And how do you know that a Buffalo Bore Cartridge was ever fired in this rifle?
From the ad; https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9321186/Re:_FS_H&R_Trapdoor_Sp#Post9321186
"H&R 1873 Trapdoor Springfield Carbine in 45/70. This is the Calvary Carbine version with the saddle ring. Excellent condition. $750 shipped from non FFL."
H&R's were only repro's. Someone in the ad states before it is bought; "These are very well made Trapdoor repros."
Which they are… I've had two of the officer's Models. Nice guns, getting spendy.
"And how do you know that a Buffalo Bore Cartridge was ever fired in this rifle?"
As he states in his original post... it's a supposition on his part. One of the possible reasons for the action popping open is a "non trapdoor" load. A full blown Ruger or even a Marlin load and they'd be picking pieces of metal out of your skull===> they are a relatively weak action! Take a look at any reloading manual under 45-70!
jerry
One question for the seller... Why did you not state that this was a repro rifle in your original for sale add? Do you think that is something everyone knows or takes for granted? And how do you know that a Buffalo Bore Cartridge was ever fired in this rifle?
Because H&R never made original Trapdoors?? I never said that I know Buffalo Bore was fired. Nor do I know it wasn't. I swear reading comprehension on this site is the lowest I've seen.
One question for the seller... Why did you not state that this was a repro rifle in your original for sale add? Do you think that is something everyone knows or takes for granted? And how do you know that a Buffalo Bore Cartridge was ever fired in this rifle?
Because H&R never made original Trapdoors?? I never said that I know Buffalo Bore was fired. Nor do I know it wasn't. I swear reading comprehension on this site is the lowest I've seen.
Why did you not state that this was a repro rifle in your original for sale add? Do you think that is something everyone knows or takes for granted?
I don't know how everybody else does it, but, personally, I thoroughly research any prospective gun purchase on ANY model that I am not extremely familiar with..........
Not a peep from the purchaser... What's the deal? Why pile on the man who hasn't said a fookin word?
One question for the seller... Why did you not state that this was a repro rifle in your original for sale add? Do you think that is something everyone knows or takes for granted? And how do you know that a Buffalo Bore Cartridge was ever fired in this rifle?
Because H&R never made original Trapdoors?? I never said that I know Buffalo Bore was fired. Nor do I know it wasn't. I swear reading comprehension on this site is the lowest I've seen.
No, I suppose that some people might not know that an H&R trapdoor is not an original. Those people that do not and would buy it thinking it was an original should not be allowed to have guns because the chances are good that they will hurt themselves with it, or scissors, or a dull pencil.
It was never represented as an original, it was stated as what it is. Which is an H&R Trapdoor Carbine in excellent condition.
I never fired it, nor do I believe that it had ever been fired. I am sorry that the new owner is not happy with it, but a little bit of research would show that what he experienced is a common issue with these and with an easy and cheap fix available. I did not know that it had this issue, because I had never fired it. If I had known about the ussue, I would have spent the $5 or so that it would cost to fix the issue.
No, I will not refund the money for a 40 year old reproduction of a 150 year old design rifle that was bought 4 months ago.
I'm done here with this issue.
Who in their right mind waits 4 months like going on a honeymoon and not.... well its just not natural.
Razz , Wicked good analogy , Toooo funny
Rich
No, I will not refund the money for a 40 year old reproduction of a 150 year old design rifle that was bought 4 months ago.
I'm done here with this issue.
No one ever expected you to refund money... You should be done with the issue... Matter of fact you should have never brought it up in open forum.
g
No, I will not refund the money for a 40 year old reproduction of a 150 year old design rifle that was bought 4 months ago.
I'm done here with this issue.
No one ever expected you to refund money... You should be done with the issue... Matter of fact you should have never brought it up in open forum.
g
The buyer wants me to refund the money. That's the whole point of this thread.
The buyer wants me to refund the money. That's the whole point of this thread.
Why? Are you seeking approval from the Campfire gurus? An atta-boy? I've had people try to pull stunts on me before, too, but I never felt the need to broadcast it on an open forum full of strangers that had nothing to do with it.
I'm pretty sure that all used items sold on the internet must carry lifetime warranties.
I'm pretty sure that all used items sold on the internet must carry lifetime warranties.
Two ways to avoid lifetime warranty:
3 day inspection, buyer pays return shipping.
As is, no refunds, I'm putting the money in my bank, suck it.
Good pictures, good description; now its a toss up with the shipper for a safe delivery. It arrives broken seller is out.
Could this have all been handled privately via PMs, rather than in an open forum?
Could this have all been handled privately via PMs, rather than in an open forum?
99% of all crimes are solved when more than one person knows about the crime.
4 phuggin months, you must be joking.
4 phuggin months, you must be joking.
The seller claims to have never fired it either. He probably owned it
A) longer than 4 months
B) less than 4 months
Guess it weren't like Razz' Honeymoon, Hmmm?
Hey; we're just here to help hang the laundry
Free bump to take a bite out of crime.
Yep, What evil lurks in the hearts of men?
Only the Shadow knows..
well said
![[Linked Image]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/watch4bear/images%201_zps47wuhseg.jpg)
Once bought a 24" 243 barrel from a "member" here, changed directions, resold in same packaging. New Buyer is like dude it's 22" - man that is low and I'm like uh uh and figured original seller would at least offer to buy it back, yeah it had been a couple months. Nope, nada and he was a dick about it to top it off. Since found out he's a retail "businessman". That explained his lack of owning up to his error. Purely out to profit. Something about 30day expiration... When I see his many ads I feel like posting asking if he'll guarantee the length, size, caliber, CCs or whatever. Anyways, it wasn't some POS trapdoor, this seller has no obligation but also needn't post here about it. Buffalo Bore? Who'd a thunk...
Sooo you bought a barrel , didn't open the package , sold it to someone else without verifying it was even a barrel , TWO MONTHS later ? haahhahahahaha and then wanted to return it ?
hahahhahahaha
you and the 45/70 buyer should become buddies !
yea I'm the guy you trashed when I told the truth about the offshore junk Leupold's putting in their scopes and their lack of quality control , as posted by prominent members of this forum .
oregontripper , what are you trippin' on ?
Dude - that was like THREE years ago!
That's some funny cshitz right there...
4 phuggin months, you must be joking.
The seller claims to have never fired it either. He probably owned it
A) longer than 4 months
B) less than 4 months
Not really fair .... bought a M700 Safari from Marlin several years ago (2005-ish) and only got around to test firing it last fall .... BTW, it shot great, but what would you expect from Caribou Jack!
You are responsible forever. If you don't believe me you can call my first wife.
I would say no, even a retail store wouldn't honor anything after 4 months!
Also
You are responsible forever. If you don't believe me you can call my first wife.
This!
![[Linked Image]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/watch4bear/McGruff-The-Crime-Dog-1024x768_zpspfp1oupf.jpg)
Self portrait
You are responsible forever. If you don't believe me you can call my first wife.
That right there...too funny!
Harry Reed again...in rigor mortis. Cool how they propped him up on the podium. Kinda like those garden gnomes that keep showing up in weird places....
I have no idea what ammo he was using (Buffalo Bore?) in a 140 year old rifle design that is well known as a very weak action in the first place. A little research would show that this was a common problem with these rifles, and there are fixes available.
![[Linked Image]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/watch4bear/maxresdefault_zpsj9e5po7g.jpg)
The norm would be a 3 day non-firing inspection. How could anyone think otherwise? He had time to take it to a gunsmith for a simple once over. I agree it should be discussed between buyer and seller only.
scott
Not taking sides here as it matters not to me... seller just taking a preemptive strike on the buyer on open forum... but would you buy say a used car with a three day non-driving inspection?
I agree it should be discussed between buyer and seller only.
Nonsense. It's times like these when buyer and seller can feel especially alone. When a cry for help goes out, we need to be there. Providing insight and clarity to even the most vexing situation.
![[Linked Image]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/watch4bear/images%202_zpsikjhb5gw.jpg)
The norm would be a 3 day non-firing inspection. How could anyone think otherwise? He had time to take it to a gunsmith for a simple once over. I agree it should be discussed between buyer and seller only.
scott
BS-when is the last time you bought a firearm from your LGS and they offered you a 3 day non firing inspection? He'd giggle up his sleeve and tell you to fugg off. You ain't buying a used car.
I don't have a dog in this hunt but seller should not have to stand behind a sell for that long! no way, No how. This ain't the LGS either!
heck no...id tell him where to find a gunsmith perhaps.way too much time passed.
No, I will not refund the money for a 40 year old reproduction of a 150 year old design rifle that was bought 4 months ago.
I'm done here with this issue.
No one ever expected you to refund money... You should be done with the issue... Matter of fact you should have never brought it up in open forum.
g
The buyer wants me to refund the money. That's the whole point of this thread.
Then the thread is pointless. No to the request. Keep the whole issue between you and him.
You are responsible forever. If you don't believe me you can call my first wife.
That right there...too funny!
It's not funny from where I stand. It's been 36 years now.
Man. Those times you wish Bricktop was still here. I would love to see his input in this topic.
The only thing I can see you are responsible for is this crap you started.
You don't have the wherewithal to deal with situations more complicated than buying an ice cream cone.
The only thing I can see you are responsible for is this crap you started.
You don't have the wherewithal to deal with situations more complicated than buying an ice cream cone.
That mean it'd get returned after 3-4 months?
Man. Those times you wish Bricktop was still here. I would love to see his input in this topic.
You're a #$&*@!! and don't have the $^&@#& to $%^&@ or *$@!$%! and wouldn't &*#$@!&*# $^&*#$ $%*@! *(%$# !@*$#@ if you could.
So prove it - post phone numbers, tracking numbers, swiss bank account numbers and three sworn affadavits from Federal judges or it didn't #%^&@$%^ happen, you &^%$@!* &*#$%!@ of a &*()#$%^@!$%^&**($#@%^&*^$$%%!@()*$$%!!!!!!!!!
In his absence that's the best facsimile I could do...
Man. Those times you wish Bricktop was still here. I would love to see his input in this topic.
You're a #$&*@!! and don't have the $^&@#& to $%^&@ or *$@!$%! and wouldn't &*#$@!&*# $^&*#$ $%*@! *(%$# !@*$#@ if you could.
So prove it - post phone numbers, tracking numbers, swiss bank account numbers and three sworn affadavits from Federal judges or it didn't #%^&@$%^ happen, you &^%$@!* &*#$%!@ of a &*()#$%^@!$%^&**($#@%^&*^$$%%!@()*$$%!!!!!!!!!
In his absence that's the best facsimile I could do...
Lots a Bricktop love there!!
Man. Those times you wish Bricktop was still here. I would love to see his input in this topic.
You're a #$&*@!! and don't have the $^&@#& to $%^&@ or *$@!$%! and wouldn't &*#$@!&*# $^&*#$ $%*@! *(%$# !@*$#@ if you could.
So prove it - post phone numbers, tracking numbers, swiss bank account numbers and three sworn affadavits from Federal judges or it didn't #%^&@$%^ happen, you &^%$@!* &*#$%!@ of a &*()#$%^@!$%^&**($#@%^&*^$$%%!@()*$$%!!!!!!!!!
In his absence that's the best facsimile I could do...
Lots a Bricktop love there!!
![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b253/gwsears/bricktop-signal.jpg)
What happened to ole Bricktop anyway, I haven't seen him 'round here in years.
![[Linked Image]](http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/Weather223/media/popcorngazelle_zps7df29c64.gif.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/watch4bear/images_zps5x6rzpjg.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/watch4bear/rcvhhe.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/watch4bear/McGruff_zpsrcgqyhsd.jpg)