Most of my life I have been a 12 ga. shooter.. Now the old pump is getting a bit heavy.. I mostly hunt some sage grouse, and ringnecks... Mostly in the 12 I screwed in a modified choke and let it go at that.. But around 2000 I bought my wife a 20 ga. 870.. I still used the 12.. Then I grew tired of being asked where are my shells as we pulled in a place to hunt.. So I bought a second 20 for myself.. If I went alone, I went back to the 12, her hunting ended in 2006.. And the 20's have sat in the gun case since then.. Now I would like to give them a whirl this fall.. I was going to put in the mod. choke and have at it, but I also have an improved mod.. I was thinking that may be the way to go since I will be mostly shooting oz loads, with 1 1/4 3" for back up.. Those with experience what is your choice.. My dogs are goldens so I am not shooting over pointing dogs.. Thanks..
Unless conditions drive more choke (spooky birds on a windy day, late season noisy crusted snow, or other stuff making birds get up further out), stay with the modified. It is a very flexible choke - you give up very little to an IC, yet it significantly improves longer range patterns. I would rather see you go to premium shells with high antimony very hard shot.
Well, according to my chart the optimum range for modified is 32.5 yds and 35 yds for improved modified, so you'll certainly get a feel as you hunt with both. I like my 20's and the tightest choke I have is modified.
That chart is worth about what you paid for it. With good ammo in the hands of a good shot, the range of a modified choked 20 gauge will shock most people. Well beyond what the chart says.
My preferred choke for upland birds, which for me means pheasants and quail, is light mod. Gauge doesn’t make much difference in my selection though I only own 10,12,16, and 20 bores.
My 20 is a fixed Mod that actually patterns more like a full and it’s too much. When I’m on it crushes them and will really tear a bird up inside of 20 yards if they’re centered. When I’m not on I have to shoot some of them twice due to hitting them with the fringe of the pattern.
That chart is worth about what you paid for it. With good ammo in the hands of a good shot, the range of a modified choked 20 gauge will shock most people. Well beyond what the chart says.
Good to know and thankful the chart cost me nothing. So, what chart for chokes is better ?
Fact is chokes mean little if one points well....Exception being the extremes of cylinder and full....And if we don't point well they mean little again....place the object in the center of the pattern, and IC will knock Pheasant sized Birds out of the sky further than most us should be shooting at game.....The ballistic people say it takes around 8 pellets of the proper size in the vitals to kill cleanly....an IC will do that a long way out if the target is centered.....That being said, some of the people in the know think Modified is the best all around upland choke.....
My preferred choke for upland birds, which for me means pheasants and quail, is light mod. Gauge doesn’t make much difference in my selection though I only own 10,12,16, and 20 bores.
My 20 is a fixed Mod that actually patterns more like a full and it’s too much. When I’m on it crushes them and will really tear a bird up inside of 20 yards if they’re centered. When I’m not on I have to shoot some of them twice due to hitting them with the fringe of the pattern.
When one isn't on....percentage wise, open chokes have more crippling fringe than tight.....
That chart is worth about what you paid for it. With good ammo in the hands of a good shot, the range of a modified choked 20 gauge will shock most people. Well beyond what the chart says.
Good to know and thankful the chart cost me nothing. So, what chart for chokes is better ?
No chart will give much light here, as there are too many variables, as battue alludes above. With cheap bargain basement shells, no choke will adequately compensate in terms of pattern performance.
Choke selection goes hand in glove with pattern performance, and that is the real measure of a choke/ammo combination. For the purposes of this discussion, modified is a good place to start, but you really want to know what the choke does in performance terms. Some factory chokes are also notoriously mismarked - have both constrictions and actually performance that are way off. Browning screw in chokes have this reputation, for example. It is also very common for a gun to prefer a particular load. So there is no hard and fast rule here.
I have a Benelli Montefeltro 12 ga., for example, whose factory chokes perform about one choke tighter than they are marked; it’s modified choke throws almost full choke patterns with all of the ammo I have tried in it.
Fact is chokes mean little if one points well....Exception being the extremes of cylinder and full....And if we don't point well they mean little again....
Fact.
I don't hunt upland much or at all, anymore. But used to LIVE for pheasant over my pointing dogs. At that time, I ran 2 3/4" 12 gauge imp. cyl. with #7 1/2 shot as most shots were at my leisure......whatever yardage I chose to pull the trigger. I chose I.C. only for minimizing meat damage. On a rare (LOL !!) occasion that I happened to miss the first shot..........follow-ups at distance were very effective so long as I pointed well.
Many thousands of rounds shot at sporting clays ranges proved to me that a skeet-choked barrel, in a well-fitting shotgun, is capable of solid hits at ranges that would surprise most casual bird hunters. And, clay targets are much smaller than most upland birds. Most of my upland hunting nowadays is for doves, chukar, and pheasants, wild and pen-raised, with my pointing Lab and a 28 ga., loaded up with 7/8 oz. of plated 7.5 shot, and shot thru a Briley skeet choke. The only reason I see for more choke constriction is for wild-flushing birds, some of which probably shouldn't be shot at anyway.
On upland Birds, with take what comes opportunities, most above average shooters will start stinking it up really bad once things get much past 30-35 yards....a range were IC excels.....for the below average shooter it will be less.....
Reality is, it takes a well tuned shooter to be able to consistently use the potential of a Modified.....Many today, certainly not all, base chokes on what they read or their experience with clays....difference being that with Birds, chips don't count....
My experience tells me we all cripple more birds than we realize and the further out they are the more we do so.....Who has the eyes to be able to see a Bird take a fringe pellet in the guts at 40 plus yards., and if it flies off there is usually little we can do about it....That Bird will probably die from a ruptured gut.....
Perhaps we should worry more about our skill level and range estimation rather than fussing over choke selection?????
I shoot a lot of sporting clays, but pass on almost all shots in the field that are much beyond 30 yards....
On upland Birds, with take what comes opportunities, most above average shooters will start stinking it up really bad once things get much past 30-35 yards....a range were IC excels.....for the below average shooter it will be less.....
Reality is, it takes a well tuned shooter to be able to consistently use the potential of a Modified.....Many today, certainly not all, base chokes on what they read or their experience with clays....difference being that with Birds, chips don't count....
My experience tells me we all cripple more birds than we realize and the further out they are the more we do so.....Who has the eyes to be able to see a Bird take a pellet in the guts at 40 plus yards., and if it flies off there is usually little we can do about it....That Bird will probably die from a ruptured gut.....
Perhaps we should worry more about our skill level and range estimation rather than fussing over choke selection?????
I shoot a lot of sporting clays, but pass on almost all shots in the field that are much beyond 30 yards....
I agree. I don't shoot many clay targets but I shoot a lot of wild pigeons for this I use extra full 80%. The fact is most people don't pattern thier guns and in my opinion leads to a lot of cripples. Don't rely on what's stamped on your barrel or choke tube. A lot of guns don't shoot to POA either . Changes in ammo can have a quite different results as well. I always say to people you meticulously sight in your deer rifle why is your shotgun different?
We kind of agree....Shooting wild Pigeons is a great teacher when it comes to using a shotgun...POA and POI is really important...Having a good idea of what your choke throws is also important...
One you have that that down, I don't care much for patterning. If it its is working then I care little about what the paper says...Good shotgunning vs good rifle shooting are two different skill sets and it goes back to the old saying of you don't aim a shotgun. The vast majority of the time with rifles you are shooting a stationary target....Not so with Birds....
For southern bobwhite, I/C in the the lower barrel and L/M or M in the upper. For a single barrel gun, L/M or I/C, but you must pattern it. Different shells and different chokes shoot varying patterns. For quail, I shoot Winchester AA 7/8 oz #8's.
For pheasant, M or I/M. Again, pattern it with the ammunition you intend to shoot. 1oz Fiocchi #5's work well in my 20 ga 391 on pheasant.
When I speak of performance, I am not talking about using a pattern plate. As Anthony mentions, performance equates to how the combination hits clays and/or birds. I am even more skeptical of the plate than he is; I’ve never seen anyone who could “not aim” at the plate. I do agree that it is useful for checking that the barrels are regulated and very roughly a sense of how tight or loose the pattern is, but that’s it.
As to drop - 50/50, 60/40, 80/20 - the set up again should be in relation to where the gun shoots against a flying target, as people see the target/gun relationship (a mostly subconscious thing) differently. For example, a number of the pros on the sporting clays circuit have guns set up at 100/0, and crush targets with that arrangement.
Same idea with respect to choke and load - proof in the pudding (performance on target/bird), not on the plate.
To add something additional to the above....I’ve also seen the good to best, take a shell from a different manufacturer and merrily go on....crushing targets along the way without changing chokes....or seeing what the plate says.
Addition: Im sure they have a preference, but preference and adaptation can change quickly if someone else is willing to pay some of the bills.
The full choke’s reign of superiority is considerably shorter in useful yards than the improved cylinder’s. Between 40 and 50 yards, where the full choke shines, even the best patterns (from ordinary hunting loads) begin to undergo a number of ills inherent to the smoothbore. Speed of the pellets drops drastically, and difficulty of judging forward allowance increases disproportionately to distance. The effect of air resistance is now being felt by all the pellets of the full-choke string and dissipation becomes progressively more damaging to pattern efficiency. By 55 yards, with ordinary hunting loads, the full choke has become less efficient than the improved cylinder at 40. This is partly due to loss of penetration of pellets at that yardage.
This pointer came from the book “Shotgunning — The Art and Science” by Bob Brister.
And 40 is a far poke for most of us on Gamebirds......
I read (actually re-read) in Don L Johnson's book 'Grouse and Woodcock, A Gunner's Guide' about Vic Reinders, quite an accomplished trap shooter years ago. Used his favored Rem Model 31, 12 ga with a full choke.
Just got a new Remington 870 20ga myself. Been using 870 supermag 12ga. The 20ga. will be using a Patternmaster Code Black Upland/timber (improve cylinder) extended choke for close flushing birds and a Patternmaster Code Black Duck (full) extended for late season birds.
I do believe that most casual gunners today are over choked, probably inherited from their dad of the Greatest Generation who had paper shells with an over the top cardboard wad, less uniform and hard shot, and were generally convinced that one needed a 30” full choke barrel to be successful on wild pheasants.
Old school/new school, things change, sometimes they don't and sometimes they come together.......
With a Bud today when he combined an old school Model 59 Winchester with full choke and modern day hard shot 5's, and tore up a Turkey at around 35yards...No sights other than the bead, no thumbhole stock....no patterning different shells over and over.....Birds head and neck took a pounding along with a wing being broken....Feathers flew and the Bird just crumpled.....
I shoot a 20 gauge pump for Eastern Montana sharptails, usually with either an ounce or ounce and a quarter of #6. First weekend or two, young birds flush in twos and threes, sometimes right under my feet. I don't have a dog, and hunt buffaloberry/chokecherry draws that are shallow and easy to walk. For this early hunting I like a Skeet or Improved Cylinder, and the birds usually drop right there, average distance from me when I retrieve them is about 30 yards or less. Sometimes they flush so close I need to wait them out a bit even with the open chokes. If one does flush at a distance, I just leave them alone and look for more tight holding young birds. I love those hot afternoons walking around the thickets, makes your heart jump when they flush!
Later season birds need more choke...sometimes a lot more, as they are flushing farther away and seem to be more heavily feathered.
I shoot cheap shells on clay pigeons, but only use premium ammo for hunting. I like my pellets in the pattern. Lots of shot with an open choke does the job for me on those early season birds.
My Bill Hanus Bird Gun in 20ga is choked Skeet 1 and skeet 2. I'm not really sure what that actually means but it's worked very well for me for over 30 years. I shoot premium 2.75" shells with the appropriate size shot and have taken pheasant out to about 35 yds.
Good thread, interesting to see what everyone uses. I have Bob Brister’s book and it’s very good. I’ve keep my choices as simple as possible. I shoot trap often, not ATA, just for fun and use modified. For most all Of my hunting I use IC/M. If using my O/U for sporting clays, IC/M, if my 391, mostly IC. I feel pretty good about my choices, but would Always like to learn more.
My Bill Hanus Bird Gun in 20ga is choked Skeet 1 and skeet 2. I'm not really sure what that actually means but it's worked very well for me for over 30 years. I shoot premium 2.75" shells with the appropriate size shot and have taken pheasant out to about 35 yds.
Skeet 1 is very close to cylinder (no choke), while Skeet 2 is a light modified. Very useful combination.
Ever pattern two different choke constructions of only .005" ? That's the difference between Skeet and Improved Cylinder, or Improved Cylinder vs. Light Modified. Somewhere there's a point where constriction matters and I'm not sure .005" is it. I can't blame my misses on .005" of choke. Now .010" is a different story! : )
MOGC, excellent point. I could get by for my sharptail hunting with either a Skeet or IC, and a Modified or IM. I like choke tubes, and sometimes change them just so I can put some lube on the threads and clean the plastic build up out of the one I had been using. I've got a Light Modified, and if I had to choose one choke for my 20 for life, think that would be it. Can't think of a time hunting sharptails when it wouldn't bave been a decent choice.
Some wise shotgunner said: "Chokes give us inches,, but we usually miss by feet"
Point well and chokes mean little....point well on Birds and chokes mean little...point well on clays and they mean little, except tighter and the resulting visual response gives you more confidence.... along with teaching us how to point well....
If we don't consistently point well, no matter what choke, we won’t hit consistently....
I had to buy a DVD adapter for the computer....it arrived and it didn’t work. I’m going to just wait until Apple opens to replace it.That may be fairly soon. 😉
You did better than me....his brother beat me.... I got down on my knees to shake his little hand....beeeeg crowd and they went nuts 👍
Anthony and his mom said his brother was better, just lost interest in competing in his early teens.
Mike was very good. I think if I remember right he told me he rather hunt and didn't want to compete and be compared to his brother. I remember when he was shooting with his sling on his gun in a tournament. He was probably 16 or 17 at that time.
The whole family is just good down to earth people. I respect them all very much.
Yes, I like and respect them all a lot. The way the family pulls together for their big shoots is a study in business leadership - and everybody from the guys collecting trash and refilling targets to mom and dad are pulling the same way. Fun just to watch that.
Nobody East of the Mississippi runs a better shoot than M&M....And to keep it kinda on track, somewhere around 90% of the targets he throws can easily be broken with an IC choke....and he may still eat your lunch....
They can all be broken with a skeet choke. Trick is, you have to perfectly center the long edgy ones. Not to say skeet is ideal, nor full. But a good shooter is in pretty good shape there with good ammo and a LM or mod. And Anthony will punish you if you disrespect the close stuff.
Yea, he normally has me shaking my head on the close going away pair...With the one going behind the tree when you want to kill it....then it pops out the other side, usually at its peak and I blow over it....Then at the corner there is usually something coming off the tower either climbing or dropping at warp speed.... or the pond will also usually get your attention...other side at the corner with the cattails is usually interesting....
