Knew there was a reason I always preferred Bear Basin and D&R.



http://www.huntamerica.com/wwwthrea...&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

I can state without reservation that Chris has always been more than fair to me and in all matters. Would also state I've bought from both the others you mention and have never been wronged and think very highly of Bear Basin especially.

Now as far as someone being foolish enough to purchase a "high end" Tasco.......Wellll,I ain't gonna touch that one and would state simply,that there is two sides to every story.

SWFA will continue to get my money and without a moments hesitation.............................

I read the thread, and while I'm not defending SWFA, who I rarely do business with because, both of us being in Texas, they are required to collect sales tax on sales to me, the situation with Tasco is well known and it would be interesting to know exactly what was said when he ordered the scope. There are usually at least 2 versions of the same event and often, the actual event supplies a third.

I have never had a problem with SWFA with any thing I have ordered. There must be more to this story than what was posted. Of course I would never buy a trashco anyway. High end Trashco now there is a concept lol. tom

My bussiness dealings with SWFA have always been very satisfactory. I do not like their attitude towards Rick and this site however.
One thing I do recall is Chris's policy about the cheap Tascos. You buy them, they aren't being taken back. I've seen this comment, by Chris, sometime ago, posted over at Shooter.com. He told a potential Tasco buyer this right up front on the site before the purchase was made. He even told him that the model in question model was a POS and that's why he doesn't stand behind them.
The person with the problem apparently can't get Tasco to fix it. Next, because Chris won't take it back, he is going to ask Tasco to take the scope back. What he really wants is to get Chris to take the Tasco back and apply full purchase price to a Leupold from Chris.
How many times have we seen this ? Some people won't listen to others with more experience. They won't ask important questions and don't believe what they don't want to hear. They seek an accomplice, not advice.
I haven't always agreed with Chris as some here may recall. But I've watched him do lots bussiness with many here, and over at Shooters.com for several years now. I have never seen him do less than be very decent to all who have done bussiness with him on the retail level. E

I'm thinkin' it is about the most grand oxymoron I can come up with,off the top of my head.

"High End Tasco",is a Good 'Un!.....................

The simple fact that the guy bought a Tasco implies that he has no aversion to getting screwed. You can hardly place the blame on SWFA for that.

I've only bought one scope from Chris and can't say I was overly impressed. No returned phone calls, looooooooooooooooooooong hold times and a scope that was supposed to be in an unopened box that came in an opened box. The scope was fine though and the price was decent, so I'd go back there if I had to, but will likely go to Rick or Bear Basin before I test my patience with Chris again.

All that said, I don't think this dude's problem is SWFA's problem. One of the nice things about dealing with Cabelas is their return policies, but that doesn't mean that every other company has to do the same. My problems with SWFA (and Chris' pissy exit from this site) would have me "try" elsewhere before going to SWFA, but if need be, I wouldn't have any qualms about using them again.

.... High end Tasco -- that's good!!!

Gentlemen:

1] I bought one scope from Chris. I got a good price and am happy.

2] Our separation of ways was business-to-business related. It had nothing to do with SWFA's interface with customers. I wish it would have gone differently between us, but I'm comfortable with the way I handled things and can't see where I would have done anything differently.

3] 24hourcampfire.com is an authorized Leupold dealer. As those who have bought glass from us will attest, we will beat anyone's pricing on Leupold, as long as they're a legit outfit. Just email me.

4] I won't sell Tasco. I'm glad they're OOB.

Rick

I have never bought a scope from SWFA, but I wonder if they announced their position on not taking a Tasco back? If they have an aversion to taking Tasco back, I just wonder if they told the gentleman that ordered the scope that they would not take it back if he was not happy.

It would be very interesting to hear the other side of the story on this one.

CAS, now that was funny! ROTFLMAO

I feel I must add something here. Several years ago when Swarovski introduced their new A Line scopes I was in the market for one. I saw an offer from SWFA for $599 and promptly ordered one, as that was the cheapest I had seen them.

When I received the scope it turned out that I did not fully read the offer and it was in fact for the older model scope that they had discounted because of the new introduction. When I called SWFA to see about exchanging it for the new model they promptly issued a UPS call tag and shipped me out a new model scope. Of course I paid the price difference.

That was my only dealing with them on any kind of return, but I thought their service was excellent.

May 19 & again on May 20, 2003 was the first time I spoke with Mr. Ryan, and became aware of his situation.

May 19:
Mr. Ryan told me we sold him a defective scope, and when he called to tell us about it he spoke with Chris, and he says that Chris told him �Too bad Buddy, you bought it, it�s yours. You�ll have to send it to the factory to get it repaired.� I ask him if he was sure that Chris talked to him in that manner, because I have never known of Chris talking to a customer that way. He told me that maybe those weren�t the exact words, but the answer was the same. Mr. Ryan said the first thing we �did� to him was when he called us about the Tasco Super Sniper scopes. We explained to him that they were on back order at that time. He says that he then ask us about the Tasco Custom Shop 8-40x56 with the mil-dot reticle, and he asked us if the quality of the Custom Shop was the same as the Super Sniper, and he says we told him that it was exactly the same. I explained to Mr. Ryan that I didn�t see how that was possible, because everyone here knows that the quality is not the same. We have a world wide exclusive on the Super Sniper scopes. Why would we say the quality is the same? We wouldn�t. I explained to Mr. Ryan that I knew that other companies had been advertising that these two scopes were the same trying to take advantage of the Super Sniper's success, but we were not one of them. In fact, we even insisted that Tasco have their attorneys issue a cease, and desist order to everyone that was making that statement, whether in print, or on the telephone. That, along with the fact that this purchase was not in our data base anywhere, and Chris would not talk to a customer the way Mr. Ryan says Chris spoke to him, is why I feel that Mr. Ryan made this purchase elsewhere. He told me that he had Lou Gehrig�s Disease, he had retired early, and the defective scope had prevented him from enjoying the sport of shooting.
Mr. Ryan told me he has been a customer of ours for four years, and this is the first time he has had a problem. I looked for him in our current data base, which goes back to September of last year, and there was no record of him making any purchases from us. I then looked for him in our last data base that goes back to 2001. I did find two orders from him there. One in May of 2001, and one in November of 2001, neither for a Custom Shop Tasco. Nothing since then, and all records before January 2001 have been destroyed. When I told Mr. Ryan this, he said he didn�t understand that because he has bought from us for six years (a two year increase from the first time he said how long he had bought from us), and he knows that he�s purchased from us since November 2001. I thanked him for his business, and asked him for the reference number of the order where he purchased the Tasco scope from us. He couldn�t provide one. He told me he doesn�t keep records. He mentioned again that he has Lou Gehrig�s Disease, and that he has never been very good at keeping records for small purchases. I explained how I couldn�t help him if he couldn�t prove that this purchase came from us, because we are not the only ones that sell the item he purchased. He told me that it had to be from us, because he only buys from us, and that he has bought from us exclusively for the last seven years (another year increase). I told him how much I appreciate that, but again tried to explain how I couldn�t help him if he couldn�t prove that he purchased this scope from us. He assured me that he understood my position, and that he would look real hard for the receipt, and call me back the next day. He thanked me for my help, and my time, and I told him how sorry I was that I couldn�t help him that day.

May 20:
Mr. Ryan told me he had found the receipt. He gave me a reference number that went back to November of 2000, and, needless to say, was not for the Tasco item he was calling about. I explained to him that I had to have the reference number that belonged to the purchase of the Tasco scope, not a reference number that just proved he had purchased from us in the past. He said that he understood, but that he was just frustrated because he had a defective scope that we were refusing to do anything about. I explained to him that at no time in our conversations have I ever said that I would not do anything about the defective scope. I again tried to explain to Mr. Ryan that before I would know if I could help him or not, he would first have to provide me with some sort of verification that proved that he had purchased the scope from us. I suggested to Mr. Ryan that he look through his credit card statements for the charge posted from us, and also through his check book register for a cancelled check with our endorsement on the back. I told him if he could provide me with any proof that he had purchased the Tasco scope from us, that would give me a date to look for a hard copy of his order. Anything. I told Mr. Ryan I couldn�t understand how he would not be in our data base, if he had made this purchase from us. He said he couldn�t either, but it must be a problem with our computer system, because he has bought from us for the past ten years, but he says this time he wanted to buy a Leupold, and we talked him into buying a Tasco, and now we won�t take it back (another three year increase, and his story changed from yesterday). I told him I would spend whatever time it took to find his order, but he had to give me somewhere to start.
Mr. Ryan told me he had sent the scope in for repair two times, and one of the problems was still not fixed. I asked him what was wrong with the scope, and he told me there was four, or five things defective with the scope. I asked him to tell me what they were. He told me the defects were:
1) The target knobs were mushy.
2) The tracking was off.
3) The 3 inch eye relief wasn�t what he expected.
4) The optical quality was not good.
Half of Mr. Ryan�s perceived factory defects were not defects at all, but rather disappointments. However, Mr. Ryan did say that the repair department had told him that the one target knob could not be fixed.

Through both days conversations Mr. Ryan continued to try to get me to take this scope in exchange for a Leupold. I repeatedly explained to him that he would have to prove that he purchased the scope from us since the purchase was not in our data base anywhere. Towards the end of our conversation on the 20th, Mr. Ryan repeatedly asked me what would I be willing to do for him if he could prove the purchase was from us. I repeated myself again, and tried to explain to Mr. Ryan that the answer to his question was not that simple. Without having the hard copy of his order, and the chance to view any notes recorded on his order regarding the purchase, and the date he called about the scope being defective, there was no way I could tell him what I could do for him. He continued to try, and pressure me into giving him an answer, and he was becoming more, and more abusive in his tone, and with his language. Finally, he asked me if he had not followed our return policy, and because he had Lou Gehrig�s Disease, did not call us timely to tell us that the scope was defective, to tell him what I would be willing to do for him. I repeated myself again, and told him it would depend on how long he had the scope before he called us. He said to just assume that it was a while. I told him in that case, I would have to tell him that the warranty must be between him, and the manufacturer. He told me he could see from where Chris had gotten his comments. That Chris wasn�t willing to help him either. He then ask me if I was licensed to do business in the state of California, and I told him I was not. He said he had talked with the Attorney General of the State of California, and was told he could not do anything if we were not licensed there. I told him that Texas had an Attorney General also, and he could talk to them about this situation. He told me he was a member of several organizations, and if I didn�t agree to take this scope in exchange for a Leupold, he just thought he would go to some of the on-line talk groups, and tell everyone that we had done a �bait and switch� on him. I agreed that was Mr. Ryan�s prerogative, and I told him all we asked was for him to be honest in everything that he said, and I told him the statement about us doing a �bait and switch� was a bold face lie. I mentioned to Mr. Ryan that his story continues to change, and he asked me how. I told him he keeps changing the length of time he has bought from us, and about the scope he was wanting to purchase being a Super Sniper one day, and a Leupold the next. He denied changing his story. I told him when someone�s story continues to change that it doesn�t leave a lot of credibility to their story. I explained to him that we have been in business for about 28 years, and we couldn�t have the reputation that we have if we treated our customers the way he�s suggesting we treated him. We make very good notes regarding all customer�s orders, and return requests. We do this just for situations like this. We all talk to a lot of people every day, and it is imperative that good notes are made regarding customer�s orders, and any time they call regarding that order. Without good notes, we wouldn�t have any way of knowing all of the circumstances concerning the order. I reminded Mr. Ryan again that if he could only find some proof that he purchased this scope from us, we still might be able to help him. The last thing I heard him say, before I hung up on him was �This is bull [bleep]�.
I am asking Mr. Ryan to provide me with proof that he purchased this scope from us, and his idea of cooperating with me is to continue to raise his voice to me, curse, and threaten to go on the internet, and �ruin� our reputation?
I disagree with the comments Mr. Ryan has made on several talk groups when he has said, �This is getting to be fun!�, �Let�s watch the fun if this takes off.�, and �This is fun!�. I not only don�t see anything �fun� about this, but I think it�s very childish, and irresponsible of Mr. Ryan when he hasn�t even attempted to prove that he purchased this scope from us.

Norma Farris
RifleScopes.com

Norma,

I figured there was much more to the story than was related on the HA link,but I never dreamed he was a Nut Job!

Kudos to you, for your patience and being up front in his feeble attempt to muddy the waters. I simply couldn't do it(not fly off the handle),nor even close(grin).

Anyhow,I corresponded with Chris earlier today,so as to thank him and your establishment for their great pricing and yearning to make everything smooth in all matters.

Folks that don't reside in a very outlying area,likely have zero feel for the importance of being treated right via mail order and you folks(Chris especially) have always treated me and my pards in what I'd deem an exceptional manner. With our long delays on parcels,due to weather,coupled with ridiculous freight costs,getting it right the first time is paramount and you have hit the nail on the head with 100% consistency. I for one am more than grateful,as I've experienced the flipside of that coin from others and "frustrating" don't come close to describing the scenario.

You folks are a top notch outfit and it has always been a pleasure trading with you.........................

I've also bought several high-end scopes from SWFA over the past several years with complete satisfaction with respect to price and service and of course the quality of the Swarovski and Kahles doesn't hurt either.

I can appreciate 'Stick's remarks about living out in the boonies as it seems that's what California has become when you try to drive somewhere and buy shooting and/or hunting related equipment plus when you do find something the clerk frequently leaves something to be desired with respect to knowledge.

A final comment about Tasco scopes....I recently took the plunge and bought one of their discontinued Titan models off the internet.....after about 100 rounds thru my 9.53 Hellcat don't see a problem....yet.

Aha, the second side of the story heard from. As I suspected, there are seriously differing details. Now, if Mr. Ryan can't come up with purchase proof, forthwith, I know who I believe and his name ain't Peter, although he might be some related term. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FWIW, I have bought 5 scopes (do they sell anything but Leupold) and Swarovski spotting scope and have been very happy with the service. No idea about their service department, as I have never needed it. Wish we had more companies like them. JMHO TM

I bought a Leica 8x32 from SWFA that came off the Samplelist and it was exactly as advertised.
The next year I emailed Chris about a Crooked Horn Harness that had the Leica trademark that I had seen at the SHOT Show. He replied to just shoot him an address and he would send me one. Two days later there's one in my mailbox, no charge.
Try that with the big camera stores that you can barely understand what they are saying!
I since bought a Zeiss Conquest and have been very happy with it.

I bought a set of Leica 10x50s and a set of Kahles 8x52s from the Samplelist a couple years ago. Last year, I bought a Leica Televid 77mm spotter. Since I currently reside in Texas, I do have to pay tax. However, Chris' customer service has been outstanding. He has gone to a great deal of effort to help me, and I appreicate that.

Blaine

i've known chris and done business with him for many years, and i know for a fact that he'll try his best to make every customer happy. SWFA was the first company to sell optics at reasonable prices before others joined the wagon. where were the other companies when SWFA made superior products affordable to consumers like me? where were the others when CHRIS was answering questions and helping shooters on web sites like this?
my dad(god bless his soul) always told me that their are two sides to a story and always believe the side of the story that is coming from somebody that done you right before.. from what i read in CHRIS'S reply, it seems that he tried his best to make it right. but sometimes you cann't make everybody happy.
CHRIS, go shoot that 500 lbs hog this weekend and i really enjoyed your company tonight

sambo the mambo

Woodseye
Just need to thank you for pointing out what you are really made of once again. Jump right into the face of a respected dealer to side with an obvious nutcase, no questions asked. FYI Chris has never sold me a repaired scope as NIB...

Have you NO shame?
art

My mind is made-up. I am going to render my verdict today. To show the Ryan fellow how much confidence I have in his side of the story, I am going to order my Leica 8X20 today-------FROM CHRIS!!!!!!

Thanks, Mr. Ryan. I've been on the fence about this purchase for some months now, but you've helped me take a decision on the matter.

THAT is funny! I love it.

I see on the HA link that he is changing the "details" of his alleged saga,faster than I can keep abreast of it. I believe someone let an inmate escape the asylum and he found a 'puter to play on.

Spill your guts on the new glass,after you get a chance to play with it.................................

I knew there had to be more to the story than what we were being told. I have bought 3 scopes from Chris and have never had any issues. Norma I have allways found Chris to be a great guy to deal with and he knows his stuff. tom

Stick, maybe you need to pull out your fine hot beverage mug for the guy who started all this. Ward <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

beltrack:

My 8X20's came from SWFA in 3 days. These are so good they may put my 10X32 Leicas on the shelf most of the time.

JimF

Even before SWFA's post over at HA, I questioned Peter's integrity when he made the statement that "this should be fun" or something to that effect when he was talking about all the fuss he was stirring up on the internet. It was an immature and irresponsible statement and I stated so on HA.

Jim--thanks, I can't wait. Guess I'll see them Mon or Tues. Thanks to Stick for the encouragement and the official/unofficial "Dunk Test."

John in Maryland

I'd already forgotten about the Dunk Test,one can always find proof in the pudding and I sorta like to cut to the chase.

I'm sitting here with the little Leica's gawking out the window,up on a fair sized mountain. It still very much amazes me,how Leica got sooooo damned much clarity and brightness,in what is such an amazingly little package?!!?

Glad to hear it weren't only my eyes, that revealed those findings,as others have related similar thoughts on this Board.

Here's hoping you have similar "luck".....................

Gentlemen,
I've been dealing with Chris Farris for more than a few years now and I've never gone away from a deal being anything but very satisfied. I've likely bought enough from him to qualify for a 12 step program and I have no intentions of changing that. I might also add that I get dealer pricing on optics at work and still send my business to SWFA & Premier Reticles... Two class acts...

Regards, Matt.

www.riflescopes.com
www.premierreticles.com

Someone should oughtta place a link to this Thread,on the HA Board.

Were it not for a promise to myself that I'd not Post there again,due to past chickenshittedness(Technical Term),I'd do it myself,as well as add multiple eloquent thoughts to the masses.They(Posters there) acted like frenzied sharks after hearing but one side of the scoop from a Nut Job and slamming a firm that has repeatedly gone above AND beyond IMHO.

Chris has always been free with his take on all optic matters(so has Premiere's Dick Thomas,in all fairness) and that on numerous Forums. He has demonstrated a sincere concern,on multiple levels and I have zero qualm declaring him one of the Good Guys in the trade and heap big interested in feedback.

Just a though that guys who have traded with SWFA prior,wouldn't be duped by a basket case's rant and that those on the fence would do well to hear both parties,before getting ready to burn a firm at the stake.

Most of my troubles are that I recognize multiple handles(have much respect for several of them in fact) on that HA Thread and it suprises me they came outta the gate swingin' and from the hip to boot. They have heard countless glowing SWFA reports,as I've seen several of them on multiple Forums and there is no way in hell they coulda missed the good things Chris and SWFA have done. Nor missed their well deserved respect across the board(figurative and literal both).

Them is my thoughts on the matter and your mileage may vary.......................

My apologies for any offence taken over posting this link on here in the hopes Chris would address it and let us know the other side of the story over on HA.I see that was a mistake as I learned in the thread that he no longer posts or frequents here and we got the other side from Norma after Chic sent them a link to the thread.Link wasn't intended to malign SWFA only hear from them as to what the facts were.No need to shoot the messenger,all will come out before it ends no doubt.Wish rick had terminated my membership when I asked a while back as I wouldn't have made this mistake of posting here again.Again Sorry to have offended anyone and make no mistake I have no dog in this fight,just wanted to hear the other side.Now Rick,please remove my membership in 24 hour and I'll post here no more, and thats a promise I will keep.


woods

REALLY?

Your original post:



Coulda fooled me.

OUCH!!

Hard not to leave sign in fresh snow....................

Woodseye
Are you incapable of keeping your own word?
art

Look on HA now.He found his receipt-he bought it in June of 2002-almost a year ago.

That seems like it's a little past the 10 days allowed for return.

WB.

All I know is that a little controversy sure does sell scopes. Anybody else want prices? I'm making a rush order in the morning and might as well tally up a few more.

Rick

Might that mean this Thread gets bumped to the top now and again?(grin)

If I weren't afeared of my Wife,I'd have you crunch some numbers on the 3.5-10x 40mm M1 LR w/duplex.

But I don't wanna know.......................

Would that be product number 52218? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rick

I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

(yep,that's the one) Shhhhhsh.............

Shhhhhh.

PM comin' atcha.

Rick

And back(thanks)......................

"Look on HA now.He found his receipt-he bought it in June of 2002-almost a year ago."

The date he called us with today from his credit card company was June of 2001, almost two years ago.

For any of ya'll that did not know why we stopped posting and advertising here, just read Rick's post. He took our money for a year contract on advertising then started selling scopes against us by personal messaging and cutting our prices. Its kinda hard for us to compete with the guy that owns the board. We would have never paid to advertise here if we knew his intentions. We will gladly beat any price he advertises or offers and we have everything in stock ready to ship.

Contact me personally.

Chris Farris

Can't stand a little competition, eh Chris? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Seems to me you would have appreciated the fact that your posting privileges were never affected here, like they were on HA and other sites. But maybe you like it like at the other place you sponsor, where the entire Peter thread was killed for your benefit. Got a lot of pull there, don'tcha? Fortunately, I don't need to rely on advertising to pay the bills around here. I sell stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Seems to me you would have appreciated my post, overly generous as it turns out, regarding the Peter situation. The pitfalls of the Internet, huh? Except that for a guy who complains about another improperly maligning his business on the web, you sure do have a free and fancy way with my bandwidth, pal. You complain about Peter, and then do exactly the same thing. Priceless!

You also never mentioned that you got not one, but three chances to be our sole optics supplier, and turned them all down. You knew from day one, before the website even went live, that I wanted to sell optics. That's the whole reason I first contacted you! The truth is that you never thought I'd be able to score a supplier, and now you're bitter that I did and you're not it. The line about the banner is bull. That was months after you turned us down. You just want a pretext to complain about my selling optics without you.

Bottom line: You gambled, and you lost. Take your marbles home now.

And hey man, thanks. I've moved quite a few scopes today. Keep up the great work, and don't think the word isn't out about your supply of Leupolds. I notice there's a few folks kicking your butt on pricing lately. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here's some news: So will I, to anyone who asks.

Ciao.

Rick

P.S.: You'll need to change your handle. Only paying advertisers get to use dot-coms.

Chris,

You got a lot of positive feedback from members here on this thread, why are you dumping compost on it?

I have been a satisfied customer in the past too.

Mighta shoulda left that dog to sleep.....

Bill,
IMHO, I Don't think Chris was doing anything other than commenting on why he no longer maintains a presence on this board. He paid for a years advertising and Rick became a dealer and started undercutting his prices before that period of time was up. It must have something to do with one's definition of chicken-[bleep]...

Money will make folks do some amazing things. It just gets interesting at how little it takes for some of them...

FWIW, My business will continue to go to Chris Farris & Dick Thomas...

Regards, Matt.

www.riflescopes.com
www.premierreticles.com

Matt:

Since when does paying for advertising guarantee that the owner of the medium can not compete with an advertiser? I think businesses pay for advertising to attract new customers and to alert your present ones to changes in your product line. Frankly, my definition of chickensh.. works on the other side of this deal. Particularly when it was apparently understood between the two parties that selling optics by 24hr was in the game plan. I might add that I have heard of some other chickensh.. moves by SWFA as well, but I am not in the business of spreading tales that I can't confirm personally, so that is all I am going to say on that topic. I usually buy from the cheapest supplier, which is often Rick for Leupolds (but if it is close, I use Rick, see following paragraph), sometimes others. Other people value handholding much more than I do.

One reason I use Rick for most of my Leupie purchases(let's see, at least 3 in the last 6 months or so) is that I get a great deal of pleasure, information, and general comraderie from this site and most of the people who frequent it. Therefore, for me, I believe that giving him my business, if he has what I want and is reasonably close to the lowest available price, is some minimal return for the value I receive FREE from this site. Those decisions on my part are included in my definition of loyalty.

I'm a little confused about this issue. How is Rick selling scopes on the forum, through the Free Classifieds?

Go to the banner at the top of the page and click on Gear Shop.
Then click on "search by manufacturer"

Rick,

Competition is no problem. HA would not allow us to post or advertise because they had an exclusive with another optics retailer. Huntchat pulled the thread on their own and I asked them to put it back up. Someone made a comment about Huntchat that caused it to go down. Why would I want a pro SWFA post removed?

You got your story mixed up a little. We started advertising here when we were asked to by the mass exodus of Shooters.com posters that you inherited. You then asked me if I would sell you scopes, I said no because we don't sell to dealers...just the public. All of this was after you had our money. I would have never advertised here if I knew that you were going to under cut all our prices and PM members with special deals.

Its pretty cut and dry really. You say you don't need banner ads because you sell products, then why did you solicit us?


IF it Flys it dies,

Your post is exactly what I am getting at.
"Since when does paying for advertising guarantee that the owner of the medium can not compete with an advertiser? " " I believe that giving him my business, if he has what I want and is reasonably close to the lowest available price, is some minimal return for the value I receive FREE from this site. "

So why waster our time paying him to PM our customers with a better price.

We are a stocking dealer and will beat any legitimate price. If you want to give us a shot we'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Chris Farris
RifleScopes.com
SampleList.com

Westman,

I am just reacting and responding to Rick's post that I felt were very inappropriate and unprofessional. To most his comments did not make since as it was directed to me personaly.


"All I know is that a little controversy sure does sell scopes. Anybody else want prices? I'm making a rush order in the morning and might as well tally up a few more.
Rick"


"Shhhhhh.
PM comin' atcha.
Rick"


Chris Farris
RifleScopes.com
SampleList.com

Chris, I believe you are cutting your own throat here. Granted there are some die hard customers of yours who (for good reason) will not leave your side, but for those on the fence, your reactions are bound to send them to Rick.

I personally agree with If It Flies It Dies (don't fall over buddy, I'm sure this is a one time event -- grin). I feel you'd of got a lot more mileage out of keeping your banners and ignoring the competition. You have/had a good reputation and such an act would have demonstrated class -- maybe even allowed you to keep the majority of the business that is going to Rick now???

While I'm not saying that I'm never going to order any rifle scopes from you again, I WILL look to Rick first based on your petty needling. As IIFID stated, if buying stuff from him keeps this site up and running, I'm all for it. But hey, I don't buy a pallet of scopes each year, so I'm a small fish to lose.

BTW, I am impressed at your description of the events with the jerk you were dealing with! I believe my minor problems getting you to sell me a scope earlier this year were an anomoly and definitely would NOT affect me doing business again with you. What you don't seem to understand though, is that Rick is our Host here. Many of us REALLY like this place. When you stab at him, it is primarily making YOU look bad.

Again, if I haven't made it clear, I'm not trying to bash you. I'm just hoping you might bury the hatchet with Rick and get on with life. You're only driving folks away with this crap.

I for one,ain't gonna get in the middle of "The Clash Of The Titans". Mainly,because none of it is any of my damned business and that's a more than good enough reason.

I'd state that competition is the best thing for the consumer,that is a given,though I weigh Service heavily due to aforementioned reasons. As far as tossing opinions back and forth and not having everything bein' warm and fuzzy,I can relate to that too. I'm guilty of having an opinion of my own now and again,that isn't embraced by the masses.(grin)

Takes a lot to ruffle me,but I just might be in the minority. If big boys wanna butt heads,I'll watch the show and chalk it up to free entertainment. I've butted my fair share and would be the last to point fingers.

My respect/appreciation for both parties,is miles from being diminished in the slightest. I'm pretty lighthearted and savvy that all storms(regardless of size) soon blow over.

I just await the Scope Wars,followed by the 2-fer Sale(grin). You gents can lighten up now,the water is under the bridge.....................

Stick? ... butt heads? ... here? ... say it ain't so <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2-fer sale! Hell, what was I thinking! You two go back at it -- I could REALLY use a pair of Leupie 6x42's!

Welllll,it's sorta so(grin).

Point was,I won't begrdudge another for stating his case and sticking to his guns,as I sorta have a slight admiration for the trait(though it ain't always productive).

Group hugs ain't my gig and sparks never spooked me. That don't mean that differences can't ever diminish.

Mr. Rick once accused me of being a Diplomat,I hope he didn't mean it(grin).....................

Post deleted by AFP

Whattabout the Remington vs. Winchester thing? I mean how infantile can we get and how low can folks stoop?

EVERYONE knows Winchester's suck!....................(hee hee hahe haa)

And here we are ... its mating season up in Paradise Alaska. The mighty big horn sheep, that the community know as the campfire calls, Big Stick comes and welcomes all challengers (known as Winchester fans) to his arena. Gonna be some headaches dealt out this afternoon! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yes, that full curl has butted more than one head in its lifetime. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

If one looks closely he will notice in the background ... the Ruger and Mauser sheep don't even dare to enter his territory (unless its the K-Hornet varieity). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by AFP

Blaine,

Its a rifle that doesn't go "Bang" in the nite! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

jeeez, guess I'll just keep buying crappy USED Leupolds. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AFP and others.

It took me a while because I had to dig through my archives, but here are emails between SWFA and ME that date back to 2000, before "THE EXODUS," for those that remember those days. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It is THE ENTIRE transcript of our dealings, as reflected by my Outlook archives. I have nothing else between us until a few months later, when I bought a LPS from them. Posting this seems very irregular to me, but in this case, considering what's been said, I felt I needed to.

Here's what Chris says:

We would have never paid to advertise here if we knew his intentions.

You got your story mixed up a little. We started advertising here when we were asked to by the mass exodus of Shooters.com posters that you inherited. You then asked me if I would sell you scopes, I said no because we don't sell to dealers...just the public. All of this was after you had our money.

You can now make the call on the actual facts, as opposed to what either of us SAY the facts are. I have added, deleted, or omitted NOTHING.

The first email is in response to an ebay ad. I was shopping.


>At 10:35 AM 10/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>What's your best price on a 1.5x5 matte finish?
>>
>>Also, I have an e-commerce site. Would you be interested in chatting about
>>selling Leupold's at www.24hourcampfire.com?
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Rick Bin



> >At 12:21 PM 10/9/2000, you wrote:
> > >$325.00 plus $14.99 S&H. I am forwarding this to my son Chris he is more
> > >knowledgable than me and might be interested in joining your chat room if
> > >he has the time which I don't see how he can but you never know. Jim




>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:20 AM
>To: Rick Bin
>Subject: Re: Saw you auction for a 2.5x8 Leupold.
>
>
>Rick,
>Are ya'll related to Shooters.com?
>
>Chris




At 05:50 PM 10/10/2000, you wrote:
> >Chris:
> >
> >I have been there many a time, and have actually seen your posts. Kudos
>for
> >the savvy info! I subscribe to the Atcheson theory, i.e., "Good glass
>costs
> >nothing. Good glass weighs nothing!" I sense that you do too.
> >
> >I have talked to a few guys that have bought stuff from you as well, mostly
> >guys I "know" from AllOutdoors.
> >
> >I am very interested in selling/reselling good Euro optics. I am a Zeiss
> >man myself, but would love to carry Leica and Swaro, along with Leupold,
> >Nikon, Bausch & Lomb, and Pentax, on the website. At least, these are the
> >makers I like, probably in that order. Think we could swing something?
> >
> >And yes, I do need a 1.5x5 VXIII in matte for my new .375 H&H (can't afford
> >the Zeiss right now). I have yet to see the 1.5x6 LPS anywhere. Do these
> >even exist yet?
> >
> >Looking forward to hearing from you.
> >
> >Rick Bin
> >www.24hourcampfire.com



>-----Original Message-----
>From: S.W.F.A., Inc. [mailto:[email protected]]
>Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 9:12 AM
>To: Rick Bin
>Subject: RE: Saw you auction for a 2.5x8 Leupold.
>
>
>Hello Rick,
>We would be glad to sell you anything we have at our dealer price. We do
>not publish a dealer price list and prices will have to be quoted on a per
>item basis. Also we have plenty of the Leupold 1.5-6 LPS in stock right
>now. We can sell you one for $750.00
>
>Chris


At 10:58 PM 10/11/2000, you wrote:
>Chris:
>
>Great.
>
>Can you give me a rough idea of how the dealer price you will give us
>relates to MSRP so that I can figure on a markup for display? I have to
>have a set price integrated into the website so that I can process credit
>card transactions. Also, what can we do about product images and
>descriptions? Do I have to get them from each individual manufacturer, or
>can you supply them as part of a reselling agreement?
>
>I'll be in the mountains this whole weekend on a backpack deer hunt, so if
>you don't hear from me in the next couple of days, I'll be sure to get back
>to any info you send me early next week.
>
>Thanks, and I'll think about that LPS. I sure would like your opinion on
>them, as I haven't eyt seen one in other than the 3.5x14. I would mount the
>1.5x6 on a .375 H&H. I want max FOV, then eye relief (isn't it a constant
>4" on the LPS?) is my next biggest concern. Which would YOU mount on a
>dangerous game rifle, an LPS, a VXIII, or a German Zeiss?
>
>Rick

Received Thursday 10/12/2000 8:43 a.m.

I don't have a price list or a certain percentage off of MSRP, our cost
changes quarterly on the Euro optics. After rethinking, we will have to
pass. We are and have been strictly retail for over 25 years and I just
don't see how this can work smoothly. The only thing I would be able to do
is sell you product at a discounted price on a per item basis. Once you
own it you can formulate mark up. We can not drop ship to your
customers. We also can not supply you with images, descriptions, etc. To
be honest we barely have time to get done what we already have on our
plates and this is sounding like it will require too much of my time for
less money. I hope you can understand.

As far as your dangerous game scope, I would buy the Swarovski Pro-Hunter
1.25-4 with the special #24 reticle first, then the Zeiss and LPS.

Chris



The following exchange occurred four and a half months LATER, after "The Exodus":



Sent Wednesday, 2/28/01 8:48 p.m.
Hi Chris:

First, it's a pleasure having you on the Board. Thanks for contributing your expertise!

Second, you may recall that we exchanged emails a few months ago re: my selling optics on the site. Where we left it was that since you didn't want to drop ship, etc., that you would sell me scopes for a reduced price but I would have to buy them outright from you.

I mention that just to maybe jog your memory as to who I am and not to revisit that subject (although if your feelings have have changed with regard to that ... )

ANYWAY, the reason I'm writing is because I'm still looking for a scope for my .375 M70. I think I like the VXIII 1.75 x 6 E in matte, or the 1.5 x 5 in matte. How do you feel about a some kind of barter for banner advertising on the site?? I'd love to have you as an advertiser anyway, but it sure would be nice to swing a deal for a scope and avoid cutting Uncle Sam into it on both ends!

I hope I'm not being presumptuous by suggesting this. If you're uncomfortable with the proposal for whatever reason, please accept my sincere apologies.

In any case, I hope it sounds like something you might be interested in doing.

I'll hope to hear from you.

Take care.

Rick Bin
www.24hourcampfire.com



> >At 12:05 PM 3/23/2001, you wrote:
> > >I never heard back from you before.
> > >
> > >How do we go about getting you set up as an advertiser, Chris.
> > >
> > >I'd love to have your banner up!
> > >
> > >Let me know.
> > >
> > >Rick Bin
> > >www.24hourcampfire.com


> >Rick,
> >
> >I thought I got back to you. In fact I was waiting to hear back from
> >you. Anyway to summarize what I thought I sent back to you.
> >
> >We have not had good luck at all with banners. We have spent ridiculous
> >amounts of money and time trying banners as a form of advertising with very
> >very little return. The only way we could do something is if it is
> >seriously inexpensive. I think just having our name visible and on peoples
> >minds is a good thing. And frankly that is about all banners do for us is
> >keep our name out there.
> >
> >Tell me what you have in mind price wise or trade wise and we'll see if it
> >is cost effective for us.
> >
> >Talk to ya soon,
> >Chris Farris


>At 01:58 PM 3/23/2001, you wrote:
> >Chris:
> >
> >Thnaks for getting back to me. I thought you had gotten mad at me or
> >something!
> >
> >Anyway, I don't know what "inexpensive" means to you, but we're charging
> >$250/year for the rotating banner ads. As I mentioned, I'd just as soon
> >make a trade for a scope, or work out some kind of barter, if it's all the
> >same to you.
> >
> >Bottom line, I'd rather have you up there than not. Now that you know what
> >we charge, let me know what makes sense for you. We can hammer SOMETHING
> >out, I'm sure.
> >
> >Rick Bin
> >www.24hourcampfire.com


-----Original Message-----
>From: S.W.F.A., Inc. [mailto:[email protected]]
>Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 1:40 PM
>To: Rick Bin
>Subject: RE: Hi Chris:
>
>
>Rick,
>
>We would need to be at about $100.00 for two years. If that's not feasible
>for you I can understand.
>
>CF


At 03:50 PM 3/26/2001, you wrote:
>Chris:
>
>OK, $100 for two years it is (PLEASE keep it under your hat!!). Can I get
>my personal stuff at wholesale or close thereto into the bargain? I
>promise, just my own stuff. I can return the favor if there's stuff you'd
>like that we carry. Sure would be nice.
>
>Send the check to:
>
>Rick Bin
>24hourcampfire.com, Inc.



>Attach a banner to an email, and I'll put it up this afternoon.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Rick



Rick,
Sounds like a plan. I can sell you personal goodies for 5% over actual
distributor cost if you pay with check or money order, add 3% for a credit
card.

I sent a few banners to rotate so they don't get stale.

Chris

PS : Check will not be mailed until sometime next week. The check writer
is on vacation.



Please note the dates, folks.

As far as I can tell, I made one mistake in my recollection of the facts, and that is that my first email to SWFA was after the website went live, and not before. It was before "THE EXODUS," however, and thus my confusion. Also, we did not become Leupold dealers until after February 2002, when I attended the Vegas SHOT Show, and we didn't put scopes up until July-ish, after the $100 banner ad had run for 16 months, which got the following response from Chris:


This will be my last post on 24hr due to Rick's decision to accept my advertising dollar then start selling optics priced $5. less than our prices. Obviously this is a conflict of interest on my part. I see many of ya'll on other sites and will still offer special deals and help ya'll out any way I can (just won't be here). Check out the optics boards at HuntChat.com, ar15.com and Shooters.com. Shooters has really changed for the better and keeps getting better.

See you guys around.


I responded:

Sorry to see you go, Chris.

Prices were not set with you in mind. I gave a directive to my employee to find the lowest advertised prices on the Internet, and match them. It came down to Bear Basin and you, and we matched whoever was lower, unit by unit and scope by scope.

Also, I never hid the fact that I was interested in selling optics. In fact, I asked you to become our supplier twice, once when we first went live two-plus years ago. You considered it then and ultimately decided against it. After the SHOT Show in February, I came to you again. I was offered a chance at a Leupold Dealership at the SHOT Show. I came to you before accepting that deal because of your reputation, and because of our past dealings. I wanted you to be our supplier. You weren't interested. I understand completely. But I wasn't going to turn down the other deal too.

I have no hard feelings. I'd be glad to leave your banner up for the remainder, or I would be glad to give you a pro-rated refund. Whatever you'd like. Hell, I'd still like for you guys to be our supplier!

Finally, I'll go on the record here once again to say that Chris and SWFA are a top-flight outfit. I have purchased from Chris, and the service and price were excellent. I have nothing but good things to say about Chris Farris and SWFA.

I'd like to leave it at that other than to request that we conduct the rest of our remaining business via email or, preferably, phone. I have no intention of bad-mouthing anyone, either online or off.

It's just business.

Rick



The rest of the story is contained in this thread.

At this point, I just want to say that I am sorry this has gone this far. I accept fully any blame that is attributable to me. All I want is to make sure that inaccurate claims against me are not made. I was completely up front about my intentions from Day 1, from my very FIRST email to SWFA. Moreover, even after Chris left, I allowed his banner to run until its expiration to honor our deal. I have taken every opportunity before this thread to publicly compliment Chris and SWFA. I don't know where Chris got the idea that buying a $100 banner precluded me from pursuing my e-commerce ambitions, but it was NEVER contemplated in any of our communications, nor would I ever have sold such for $100. My intentions were clear, unambiguous, and overt. I never hid them. Bottom line is that he got a GREAT deal on a banner and was able to market his wares here exclusively while he was the only game in town for 16 months. My entering the fray might have surprised him, but it shouldn't have been unexpected. It took a while, but I GOT got my dealership without SWFA! Them's the breaks, Chris.

I'm DONE with this! Chris, your posting privileges remain.

Best to you and your family.

Rick

Rick,

As usual you're a class act. You've done a great job running this site and I really doubted that you had mislead Chris.

I also second what IIFID said. I buy stuff from Rick not just because he is usually the cheapest but out of appreciation for this board.

Rick,

I don't think I put 2+2 together from the early e-mails asking about buying scopes, the eBay emails, the mass exodus and us advertising as all being 24hrcampfire. We get alot of request from dealers. I stand corrected, that I should have been aware of your intentions to accept our advertising dollar and compete against us. If I had a better memory I could have corrolated Rick Bin, dealer request, 24hr, and eBay emails altogether. When I saw your prices were exactly $5. less than ours across the board is when I posted that we were splitting ways.

Chris Farris

Chris:

No links or banners allowed. Only to paying advertisers. I removed them.

Apology accepted, I think.

Rick

Chris,

Just curious about whether or not you will continue to post here. I for one enjoy having someone with your amount of knowledge and experience with optics around.

Jesusss Chrissssto......(to use my bad Spanish) all of that whining because he paid a lousy Benjamin Franklin for TWENTY-FOUR (24) months of banners and he only got 16 months competition free. Give me a frigging break. I can solve this, I'll send him $33.34 back (8/24 (1/3) x $100) and won't have to hear any more whining or ahem.....slight memory failures......let me know if he wants a check. Sheeesh. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm a little slow, so you're simply going to hear an echo: This is over $100 for a 2 year banner and didn't come up until near the end of the 2 year period???????????? Everything else aside, you have GOT to be freakin' kidding me!

It does not matter if the banner was $100. a day. The fact is he targeted our prices and cut them all by $5. them would PM members interested in scopes. How can I compete when I don't own the site and software. He can PM everyone at once if wants. There was no need for us to keep advertising, the dollar amount is a mute point. Its the principle. I can't believe that I even have to explain it to you.

I did'nt stir up anything. Rick decided to take advantage of the posts popularity and it being linked to several other sites by posting his inappropriate post trying to sell even more scopes at our expense. It was a flagrant, direct jab at me and not appreciated.

Show me how "All I know is that a little controversy sure does sell scopes. Anybody else want prices? I'm making a rush order in the morning and might as well tally up a few more.
Rick"

and

"Shhhhhh.
PM comin' atcha.
Rick"


belonged in this post.

Chris
SWFA, Inc.

Ditto to what the two boys above said!!!!!

Drop the whole frick'n thing and get back to posting about optics...especially you Chris (have always appreciated your knowledge).

SWFA
A MUTE point? If there's one thing it ain't it's mute. Damn noisy point is what it is! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

After reading through this thread TWICE to see if I missed something, I just have to say I still haven't lost any respect for Rick and am at a loss to explain why Chris is still pursuing this line.

This whole thread would be laughable if it weren't for the fact it is about a couple of people I respect who are getting down in the mud over a pretty inane issue.

Especially after (A)- the guy who started this whole thing turned out to be a loony with selective memory causing trouble for his own personal reasons, and
(B)- It looks like from the information both Rick and Chris have presented, there really isn't that much to argue about. The intent to sell was there plain to see except for "being too busy" to pay attention on the part of SWFA.

Sorry Chris, as far as I can see, it looks like you don't have a leg to stand on this time around. On top of that, since you left with your pissy last message a while back, Rick has been nothing short of a gentleman when your name and/or company name came up on a thread of any kind. Take it like a man and let's get back to the important issues of this board. Something could still be salvaged here, but pushing the issue isn't the way to do it- Sheister

I note that Chris is taking comments made to Big Stick by Rick out of context.

I had nothing against SWFA before,and have purchased a lot of glass from them in the past,but after seeing how they handled this situation over a measly $33 in advirtising
(yeah,how many scopes did they sell in the 16 months of competition free advirtisement that they got for only $67?),I'll just take all my new optics business to Rick's or Bear Basin.

WB.

Post deleted by AFP

Stick,
I would have to agree with your "none of it is any my damned business" comment... After reading back through this I think you hit the nail on the head as per usual. Hopefully I'll pick up on this fine art before I qualify for Social Security...

Regards, Matt.

Amazing, the thread that started it has disappeared on HA. Censorship strikes again. One of several reasons I don't go there or to most other sites that exercise "iron" control over their posters.

Yeah, its a pissing match and I know who's pissing and moaning about $33.34. I still haven't figured out the PM deal. I have never received an unsolicited PM inviting me to buy from Rick to beat SWFA's prices or anyone's for that matter. As a matter of fact, he is so low key about it that quite a few posters didn't even know he sells scopes, until NOW, that is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To all,

I deleted all my posts here that I could. I don't want to be on the record taking sides in this issue. I regret i even started to do so. I wish the incident between Rick and Chris had never happened. I'd really like to think it was just two fine gentleman--well, maybe that's going too far. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> How about two decent men that just got crossed up a bit over wrong assumptions or misunderstandings or whatever.

I will say that Chris' dealings with me have been first rate, and he has gone out of his way more than once to help me.

I will also say that Rick Bin is an honest man with integrity, the best webmaster on the Internet, and I consider him a friend.

Blaine

Thank you Blaine. The feeling is mutual.

Rick

IIFID,

Do you want to give me an over and under on how long my "Censorship" thread lasts on HA in "Optics?" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Longbob:

I'm not familiar enough with the terrain at HA to really make a good line, but I'll bet not long. As I said, I'll be thinking of you come Thurs when I fire my first shots in South Africa. Hear anything from ScottB or is he lost in space?

I expect a full report when you get back! If you don't have a taxidermist, I have an excellent one that I can recommend here in North Texas. He does mounts for some of the best and he is very reasonable. He comes highly recommended. Also, I use Jody at ABX (out of Ft. Worth) to do the shipping from S. Africa. She saved me about $700 over Coppersmith.

I just spoke to Scott this last week. I told him that we have both been banned from the Byron Nelson for our antics last year. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Best of luck! You will never be the same afterwards.

Thanks, I may take you up on that taxi info offer. I know this is heresy, but, at this time, I am not planning on mounting any of the game, however, if it is a really good kudu or similar I may change my mind. I am not a dead head on the wall fan, I'd rather either spend the money on more hunts or more guns, or, my favorite, more land. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've hunted birds over there (Zim and SA) before, but since my cape buff hunt got cancelled, I'm now scheduling more plains game on the "second" hunt (which was initially going to be mostly ducks/geese and birds, the company specializes in them with pointing and retrieving hounds) but am really going to kick back and have a good time. I deserve it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Current plans call for a couple of days of dove/pigeon shooting on arrival (PH says it is towards end of that season so we should get with it, who am I to argue), followed by 5 or 6 days for plains game, then ducks and geese (which are just migrating in, I understand). Can't wait to shoot one of those spurwings (largest goose in the world).

IIFID, sounds like a fantastic trip! Please share photos when you get back!

MS:

There are two major impediments to the photo project, one, I don't take many, prefer to enjoy the experience rather than framing photos in my mind (used to be a serious amateur photographer and quit cold turkey, glad I did) and two, I am somewhat retarded when it comes to posting photos on the net. I understand that there is another frequent poster on these boards that has a similar problem, not to mention his preference for pink prom dresses. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

However, I did go out and plunk down the magnanimous sum of $60 for a new film camera at my buddy's pawn shop. maybe it'll work, and maybe it won't. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But if I get any good photos I'll try to post them or get some to you.

I looked into going digital, but didn't have the time or desire to learn a new process just for the trip. I need to tho, I have a vast supply of ebay type items to sell.

Need a photographer????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've bought products from both Chris and Rick. Both treated me right and provided great service. Both will continue to get my money from time to time, depending on what I'm looking for. I have zero qualms about my money going to either business. This little debate doesn't mean squat to me as I seriously doubt either one of them will ask me to grab my ankles should I get sent a busted scope.

Wow, now I know where everyone hangs out!

I gotta get down to this board more often. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My only regret, is that I think I missed some good Wincherster bashing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I've always liked being the 'odd man out' when it comes to that subject. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian,

I simply asked Stick "Tell me again, what is a Winchester?" when he pointed out there were huge debates on Remington vs Winchester.

Blaine

AFP,

Debates? What debates?

I've never heard of such nonsense! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Kahuna, what rifle will you use on plains game?

Well, actually fairly ordinary, an Olympian grade Browning FN in .30-06 with a Bushnell Elite 3x9 on it, that I've had for quite a while and shoot most critters around here with it, at least until I got into my current 6.5x55 love affair. It has a sort of stepped pencil like barrel and shoots the Nosler 180s into about an inch, which is plenty good enough for my real world shot making ability. I'm taking a couple boxes each of Federal 180 gr Nosler Partitions, and some old Norma I had laying around. Don't have to hassle with the "factory boxes" problem on the airlines which seems to be cropping up pretty often these days, according to some recent reports. BTW, it is too expensive over here to be very available, and I've only shot Norma factory ammo in 3 calibers, .220 Swift, .308 and .30-06, so it is hardly definitive, but it is by far the most accurate factory hunting load I've shot in those 3. The .308, which is a 150 gr semi RN SP, will shoot less than or around a 1/2 inch in most any accurate rifle, I've tried it in several and it seems to be pretty consistent in all of them. Shot a less than 3/8 inch 3 shot FIRST group out of a Savage 99 using them, which was something of a fluke, but still impressed me no end.I lucked into a fairly vast quantity of this stuff a few years back in a close out for dirt cheap prices and it is one of the better "buys" I ever made. I can't confirm their current production is that good, but the old stuff sure was.

I was going to take a .375 H&H, but had so much fun (NOT)doing load development at the bench that I decided to leave the kicking SOB at home. Very pretty rifle, Dakota 76 with a very nice quarter sawn English stock, but it is fairly light and, while shooting it standing was no problem, I grew to hate it. For the next trip, I'll use a bag of lead shot behind it.

Leaving for Atlanta tomorrow, overnight there and on to Joberg, only 17 hours in a cigar tube. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I hate packing but am looking forward to the cabin door closing, 17 hours and all.....back to packing, buying doxycycline, film, mailing blanks, cutting bois d'arc, yuck.......is insanity a permanent condition or does enough good bourbon cure it? Nooo.....that doesn't work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

IIFID,
The Browning Hi-Power rifle series are my all time favorite rifles.Have about 15 Safari Grades,one Medallion and two Olympians (243&270).

Hope the airline doesn't "loose" your Olympian!Replacement cost for a NIB 30/06 is about $4K so be sure not to loose it!

WB.

Hey Rick, anxiously awaiting the 2 new Leupies. Chris, would have loved to check out your prices but couldn't find an advertisement (Should have had a banner on 24hourcampfire.com, the place to be!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> So, now that you two have dropped the discussion, why don't you apologize to the boys here at 24hourcampfire for having to witness it by sending us all free Leupies! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ACKLEY