I can't believe this cam so quickly...I just oprdered it thursday evening my time...must have been near close of business in Oregon.

Score (0 to 5 with 5 as the top score:
Order Processing/ Shipping/ Delivery: 5
- order was processed / shipped same day (near cob) / tracking # provided via e-mail same day / received inside of 48 hrs from Oregon to Virginia using USPS Priority (the cheapest option)
Customer Service: 5
- I thought I had a problem (turned out the error was mine)and CS treated me like a King as if i could make no mistake yet they patiently gave me knowledge to see what was right and they were determined to maintain me as fully satisfied (I was)
1st peak thru the bino: WOW!!!
- beats the Vortex Diamondback in color, clarity, sharopness, low light, depth, field of view and pobably other measures i can't think of
- FOV for the Vortex and the Zen are both specc'ed at over 400 feet,,,the delta is prbably 10 to 15 ft..yet one immediately senses the dramatic (broad) FOV thru the Zen...surprised me,,,did not expect to notice that as much as you do
- eye relief is about 18 mm for the Vortex and 17 mm for the Zen...reality...i think the Zen may have a tad more than the Vortex...either one works with eye glasses with ease to the extent that you can opush the adjustabkle eye caps out a nothch even with glasses and still get the whole sight window
= depth of field is also a standout difference you notice. The Vortex is fuzzy as you pan and you focus and zoom in to a sharp picture...the Zen is pretty sharp without any adjustment and then you adjust fromsharp to sharper and the Zen stays sharp pretty much at everything i panned on...the depth is very good

Last noite - I would bet my lunch that both bino's came from the same factory. The rubber eyep[iece lens cover for each is a dupl;icate in all respects. The rubber objective lens cover is the only thing the Vortex wins on...seems someone made the band that holds the cover much slimmer on te Zen than it was ojn the Vortext, consequently it does not hold as well on the Zen as the Vortex...but the objecive cover other than the band size seems similar enough to suggets it came from the same factory source.


I have not compared the weight specs but the Zen is bigger/longer yet it seems lighter. I had at first thought from looking at pictures of the Zen, that it's hinge bridge was ugly and maybe a source of weakness. Not the case, it looks much better and natural once you have it in hand and it is not a weak point..so i would not suggest you worry much about the hinge if you also thought it ugly and wierd.

Bottom line: this bino is a keeper and heck of a deal for the $.

Nice review Panzer. I must have missed it when I posted mine. Your comments pretty much mirror my own. I look forward to seeing what Steve posts.

Is this the same thing?

Zen binos

No..that is the ZRS which is the next model down the food chain. Click on "all binoculars" on the left tab and scroll to the 8x43 ED.

Thanks for the great review and tip on the coupon("IFISH" for $90 off). I went ahead and ordered one 8x43. Total came in $359 with free shipping promotion.

From what I hear that ZRS will perform slightly better than the Pentax DCF SPs. Ofcourse I believe its chief competition is going to be the Vortex Viper. We need to get someone that already has the Viper to invest in the ZRS.

Frank,
I may have missed it, but have you been able to compare the Promaster/Hawke/Zen-Ray EDs to the Vortex Razors?

Doug~RR

Doug,

Sorry, no I have not. I have not owned the Razors for close to two years now. This is something I would like to do but have not had a chance to do at this point.

There have been some speculation as to whether or not we are going to see a revamped Razor to compete more with the Pro/Hawke/Zen designs but nothing "official" at this point. I did see that Vortex has introduced a new "Razor" spotting scope that looks quite impressive on paper so it would seem a revamped binocular would be a natural progression.

I had a few questions about the Zen-Ray products and fired off an e-mail. The responses came within a couple hours and a follow-up was there when I looked this morning. The very quick and thorough responses impressed me.

My understanding of the company strategy is that they intend to sell a binocular that performs like something in the next higher price category. The ED versions that can be bought now for less than four hundred are intended to compete with 'top tier' binoculars. I'm seriously thinking of buying one just to see what all the fuss over Chinese ED binoculars is all about.

Do it Ward.

If they remedied the small issue with focusing tension variability between units then I think you will be very impressed with the binocular.

Truth be told I haven't really found someone that wasn't impressed in one way or another with either the Promaster, the Hawke or the Zen Ray.

I don't know if I mentioned it back when the Promaster originally debuted but I had the opportunity to let a few other high end optics users try the Promasters. They were shocked by the image quality. One of the guys even said that if those bins had been out when he was looking for new bins then he wouldn't have even bought his Swaro ELs. Another one, a Nikon SE user, tried to find something wrong optically with the Promasters and really could not come up with something to complain about.

That says something in my book.

Frank,
Any luck finding any comparison between the new Zen-Ray and the Viper? Thanks.

Take a look at the Zen Ray first impressions thread on birdforum.net for other ZR info as it comes in.

When Steve C (also here!) gets his bins from USPS then you will see that info (he has Viper, I think, perhaps it's a Razor ... damn these names )

That said as the ZR seem to be "another Chinese ED" (they are very similar to and perhaps slightly brighter than the other Chinese EDs) then a Hawke or PM to Viper comparison would be the same. That has been done before.

Thanks Kevin. I will search around on the Bird Forum for a comparison between Viper and the Hawke and ProMaster.

I have just finished up first impressions of the ZEN ED in both 8x and 10x43. Yes, they are made in China so this is a viewer's advisory. I intend this as a comment on the optics and quality of the binocular. That and only that. You can feel free to make your own political choices.

The Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED and the Hawke Frontier ED, which are very much like the ZEN ED, have been reviewed by myself and others. I have said many good things about the Promaster ELX ED, and after comparing them to a whole bunch of other binoculars up to and including the European Alpha class glass, I will let stand what I have said about them. Whatever I have said about the Promaster also applies to the ZEN ED. These are simply fantastic optical instruments considering what they cost. They are what I will call 99.33 binoculars. That's 99% of the alpha optics at 33% of the price. If these are not the working class alpha glass, then I have no idea what is. Whatever your political stance on China is, these are not junk. There are no apparent build quality issues. Their construction seems on par with the Vortex Viper or the Pentax SP.

The differences in the Promaster and ZEN are few and small, but they are there. Resolution seems to be equal as determined by how far down the chart detail can be discerned. The ZEN may be a tad brighter than the ELX. The ELX has the appearance of having a reactive coating that appears just a little bit yellow (but less so than the Meopta 8x42)in dim light, and almost neutral in bright light (less so than the Leica)and maybe not quite as bright as the Zeiss FL. The ZEN has a closer appearance to the Leica in overall color tint. The Promaster has both water and oil repellent coatings, that I can testify work as advertised. The ZEN does not. Maybe that is the reason for the difference in color tint. The eye cups of the ZEN are more rounded and will be more comfortable for some.

The ZEN has more room between the barrels, 0.75" vs 0.70", and is two ounces lighter than the Promaster.

Now, I do not think these will pass the same objective optical tests with the same scores as the alphas, but they will be far closer than anything else in their price. What they will do is give somebody who just can't fork over the cost of the alphas glass class, but still can have first rate optics. What can't be known, obviously is the issues with durability, longevity, service, warranty service, and need for warranty service and repair.

Even if you eventually want an alpha, one of these will serve you well as a pickup, loaner, or backup binocular. There are things you need to figure out before you buy at that level before you fork out the cash. One is do you want 8x or 10x. Do you want a full size glass, or a compact glass. Just because your buddy talked you into a Swarovski just because he thinks it is the best does not mean you will not be better served by the view of a Zeiss or a Leica. You need to get this figured out. For around $400 you can use these to help figure that out.

Somewhere above the question was asked about how these compare to the Vortex Razor. I think they are a bit brighter and sharper than the Razor. But if I had a Razor I would not rush out headlong to trade it on one of these. They are, for all practical means, too close to tell the difference without them being side by side. Same with the Meopta Meostar. If I did not want Chinese, the Razor, the Meostar or the Minox HG is where you need to go. Or the Leupold Gold Rings. By the way, the folks Leupold have a new Green Ring binocular called the Northfork that looks a lot like these too.

So to repeat myself a little, if you want so close to alpha optics that mortal eyes will be hard pressed to tell the difference, this is your obvious route. Zen-Ray is a Beaverton, Oregon based company. They seem to be pretty serious about becoming a fixture in the optics arena. The ZEN warranty is no fault and goes with the binocular, no receipt or warranty card needed. We all know what first class service we can expect from Doug.

EDIT:
I have Vipers. These are better, both ELX and ZEN. They are also less expensive than the Viper. However the Vipers are good glass.

Steve,

No what, in the world, would make you think you need to post this little disclaimer?



Nice review as always Steve. I am a bit jealous that you and Kevin chose the 10x's as well. Now that I feel the 8x selection is complete maybe I should start considering a 10x to add. Hmm, ok maybe I will wait for a 10x50. :-)

At $359 with the IFISH code, I could not resist ordering the 8x43EDs. Should be a nice pair for in the truck and elk woods.

Doug~RR

Here is an answer to a question to Zen Ray about coatings on exterior lens surfaces.

Thanks for contacting us. Right now, the ZEN ED does not have
hydrophobic coating on the exterior lens. We did that purposely
because our study shows there is some brightness degradation with that
coating (it is not anti-reflection coating).

Please feel free to contact us if you have any question.

Thanks

Zen-Ray Optics


Any bad feelings about hunting with these in the rain and cold?

You will be fine without the repellent coating. Most of my optics do not have it. They are just fine in the field. my 0.02

2 oz lighter? I got the impression that they have the same optics. Is it just because of different armor design or the glasses are different?

There is less armoring for one. There is about 0.70" space between the barrels on the Promaster at 65 IPD and 0.75 in the ZEN. It seems to be a different material in the two as well. The ZEN has a more streamlined eye-cup design which looks like it would weigh a little less. Now I have no idea why, but the ZEN is a tiny speck shorter, maybe a 1/16" or so. Probably because the extra armor thickness and the way it wraps around the objective. The ZEN feels a bit lighter, but I need to weigh again to confirm.

Birdforum is currently down so I'll post this here ...

In this stray light test I look at an old barn Owl perch up in a Douglas Fir on the edge of Volunteer Park. The perch is well shaded but through the branches of the tree and framed by surrounding trees is overcast sky

The overcast sky is a "bright overcast" i.e. an "anticyclonic gloom" overcast with a high pressure area generating an inversion at around 600 feet with a cloud thickness of just a thousand feet or so then sun and blue sky above that. It's not the sort of dark overcast associated with rain (nimbostratus) which would also have other clouds above it.

I found this test by accident (observing a Barn Owl in a daytime roost) and found quite a few of my bins "feel apart" in this situation when the best ones could deal with it.

Amount of stray light in the field (least to most)

1. Zeiss FL 7x42
2. Zeiss FL 8x32
3. Bushnell Legend 8x42 (yeah, WTF!)
4. Bushnell Elite 8x43
5. Promaster Infinity ELX ED 8x42
6. Hawke Frontier ED 8x32
7. Zen Ray ED 8x43
8. Zeiss Victory 8x40

Here to top four bins make it easy to see where the bird would be without stray light being at all annoying.

Of course the real surprise here is that bin in fourth place: the $200 Bushnell Legend 8x42. It does an very good job dealing with stray light even better than the Elite. And I put this down to it's 6.3 degree FOV. I'm pretty sure keeping the FOV narrow really helps to cut down on stray light.

But the brightness of the stray light in the FOV is not the only parameter here. How bright the image is will affect how much you can see.

So ranking the bins in order of Image brightness (i.e. transmission) by eye

1. Zeiss FL 7x42
2. Zeiss Victory 8x40
3. Zeiss FL 8x32
4. Bushnell Elite 8x43
5. Zen Ray ED 8x43
6. Promaster Infinity ELX ED 8x42
7. Hawke Frontier ED 8x32
8. Bushnell Legend 8x42

So the AK prisms with TIR followed by SP with dielectric mirrors then silver mirrors with quality of AR affecting the ordering too. The Legend doesn't do as well in this ranking. The Elite and ZR are very close I think: dielectric mirror and older AR coatings against silver mirror and newer AR coatings. This is also the order of absolute contrast and color saturation.

So now considering the observer image contrast quality with stray light (i.e something like image brightness / stray light brightness) the ordering from best to worst is:

1. Zeiss FL 7x42
2. Zeiss FL 8x32
3. Bushnell Legend 8x42
4. Bushnell Elite 8x43
5. Zeiss Victory 8x40
6. Zen Ray ED 8x43
7. Promaster Infinity ELX ED 8x42
8. Hawke Frontier ED 8x32

The ones that do better supressing stray light do best in this ordering even when they're not as bright (i.e. the Legend). Then the Victory that doesn't do as well with stray light but has a bright image does better. Then ZR where it's brightness helps a bit more than controlling stray light against the other Chinese EDs so it comes out at the top of the pack.

Even with this ordering the positions are not precise depending upon how much light they see there are some variations e.g. there were some points where the ZR 8x was differently better than the Zeiss Victory.

So this is a rather subjective test especially as the stray light varies across the field: some of the light is concentrated into bright crescents (the ZR does this) whereas others have a more of a veiling glare problem (the Promaster and Hawke suffer from this).

This is quite an extreme but realistic sort of test especially for birding in the woods (or looking for owls just before twilight) with a dark target and bright surroundings.

Of course keep in mind this isn't the only ranking of these bins. For example with sharpness all the ED or FL bins beat the non-ED/FL bins. Perhaps something like this:

1. Zeiss FL 7x42
1. Zeiss FL 8x32
2. Zen Ray ED 8x43
2. Promaster Infinity ELX ED 8x42
2. Hawke Frontier ED 8x32
3. Zeiss Victory 8x40
4. Bushnell Elite 8x43
5. Bushnell Legend 8x42

and price or weight would be another ranking.

Binoculars are always a compromise so determine the trade-offs is part of deciding which bin fits you. And that often takes experience.

It is surprising to see a 32mm Zeiss FL is brighter than a few 42mm binoculars. Is that the result under low light condition when exit pupil size matters? But it is probably expected given the price difference.

Better AR coating and perhaps a dielectric mirror coating make the difference (the latter should be worth a few percent).

These measurements are in daylight. I don't look for stray light at dusk (though actually using a full moon at night is a very good technique for investigating stray light).

Remember in daylight the transmission of the bin counts for everything as the entrance pupil of the eye is smaller than the exit pupil of all the bins. This is an easy effect to observe.

The other thing to note (I posted at BF just before it keeled over) is the Zen Ray 8x43 doesn't have the "halo" outside the field stop that the Hawke ED 8x43 (which otherwise has the same spec) does. They fixed that!

The interesting thing after playing with the three Chinese ED is even in the small time they've been around you can see evolution in their design. These are not "clones" of each other but (I suspect) the same basic design with various tweaks. ZR seems to be taking advantage of better coatings (perhaps both mirror coating and AR).

I suspect, as I have said before, 2009 is the Year of the Chinese ED.

I wonder if they know about Viagra?...

Thanks for explanation. At low light condition, the exit pupil of binoculars is smaller than fully dilated eye pupils. I presume the exit pupil of binoculars might become a limiter? A astonomy buddy of mine likes his 7x50 binoculars for its 7mm exit pupil and always laughed at my 4.2mm "little roofy".

Even at night there is no point in making the exit pupil larger than your entrance pupil (except for "relaxed alignment" ... an oversize exit pupil helps) if you are looking for maximum contrast.

In a black room you may have a 7mm exit pupil. Some youngsters will have an 8mm exit pupil some 6mm. And some (older folks) will struggle to get to 5mm.

Remember all the average eye pupil sizes are at least plus or minus one mm. Some more.

The only way to know is to measure it yourself: with a digital camera with flash (no red eye ... that's what you are trying to see!) and a ruler above the eye. Works for any light conditions.

And if you use your bin in daylight even in twilight most folks eye pupils aren't going to get bigger than 4mm.

The Zen ED 8x43s arrived in the mail. Had a chance to compare them to the Nikon Monarch ATB 8x and 10x, and the Vortex Razor 10x at a local gun shop. The Zens noticeably surpassed the Monarchs in terms of brightness, contrast and resolution (used the Swaro resolution chart across the store). The comparison with the Vortex Razor 10x42 is close. I still liked the brightness/contrast of the 8x Zen ED. Resolution was equal. I would have liked to have spent more time comparing and discerning for any little difference in image quality like sharpness towards the edges and field curvature. The Zens did feel comfortable in the hands and well balanced. The eye cups were comfortably rounded on the edges, have 3 positions, but seemed a little loose with freeplay. The hinge front is threaded for a tripod adapter.

Doug~RR

As a person who has limited experience I need assistance. My only "decent" binocular purchase has been Nikon Monarch ATB 8*42. I like these but I realise they have their limitations. How much better would the ZR 8*43 be to me? One thing with the Nikons is the constant refocussing which is annoying. Second thing is they appear bright in low light but colors wash out when the light is bright. Just my feelings on them, I find them very useable but....

I have a Nikon Monarch 8x42. I have a Promaster 8x42 ELX ED and both ZEN ED 8x42 and 10x43. They are much better than the Monarch in any optical paramater, or combination of optical parameters you care to name. The focus fiddling issue with the Monarch is what finally pushed me onwards away from them.

received mine too yesterday. Haven't got much time to play with it yet. So far I like what I see. Good image contrast, probably the brightest one among all the binos I have. I didn't check the resolution chart. But it seems very sharp, even better than those more expensive glasses. The construction is solid and well put together. I like the deep thumb indent. The whole thing feels lighter than its actual weight (27oz). It is more like holding a 24oz size binoculars. I will comment more once I have more time playing with it. Thanks for the recommendation. For around $350, it is well worthy it.

I also just received my 10x43's in the mail in Monday. No expert when it comes to optics but like everyone else had said, for the price the ZEN ED sure seems to be a great deal. I've only played around with them a little, but did compare them side by side with my only other decent binocs I have, which are a Pentax DCF SP 10x43. I've really liked the DCF's but thought it would be nice to have the back-up Zens. Like Hawker said, they seem to be feel lighter than they are, I weighed them and came up with 27oz - compared to 25oz for the DCF's but they felt lighter in the hand. I live in Oregon about 20 minutes from Zen, anyway we had a typical rainy and dark day yesterday when I tested them, looking out my back door at various things in the dark light, the ZENS were really crisp and clear. The one thing for me anyway that I really like is that when you focus them there is a little more wiggle room, not sure how to best explain it. With the DCF's you are focused or you are not, with the ZEN's you have a little more play I guess, and for me that helps. I had LASIK done about a year ago and since then I can see much better but I tend to be more sensitive to focus at long range, so the ZENS are more forgiving to my tired eyes I guess. Overall I am happy with them, especially for the price, hard to beat that.

OregonMuley,

Which are the backups now... the Zens or the Pentax?

Chris

Well, not sure yet - my DCF's have been used and abused so I may use those for when I do my backpack hunting but will have to see. Well be interested to hear from folks how reliable they will be after field use.

I have noticed that the neck strap that came with the Zen binos are made for a person whose height is around 12'

Red Rabbit,

Look a little closer and you will see there is two sections of strap. There is a quick detach coupler in the middle (at least there is on both of mine) for those of more normal stature. The long strap is intended to accommodate the over the shoulder "bandoleer style" of carry which is fairly popular. So what yo can do is adjust all of the strap length through the buckle and just leave a inch or so of strap that will quick disconnect from the normal strap. You should be able to get matching clip styles at OP Tech.

I too sort of wonded how long it will be before the Pentax Oregonmuley has will be the backup. My 8x Vortex Vipers didn't survive the Promaster, and neither will the 10x Viper survive the 10x ZEN. The Viper always suited me better than the SP.

Well, will have to see, the first real field test for them will be in about a month or so when I hit Eastern Oregon in search of sheds - scanning the canyons and hills for sheds will be a great field test. Then - maybe the DCF's will have to get retired:)

Great reviews and discussion. Only problem is that this will probably cost me...

....a lot less than another binocular with comparable optics.

Steve,
Even shortened all the way, the bino's objective hangs below the belt. I am 5'8" The padded strap section between the quick-clips is 42" - too long for me to hang the binos in front.

Probably better to use the Crooked Horn Bino Harness anyway.

Doug~RR

Ouch, that is a mite long. Zen must have some like yours that are too long and some like I have which have the disconnect in the middle. Mine adjust up just fine. But I also prefer a harness.

The mailman dropped off a set of Zen-Ray 8x43 ED this evening. Didn't have alot of time before the sun went down.... but my initial impression and observation is that for $359 I'm impressed.

You are probably referring to wider depth of focus. I noticed that too. More stuff can be seen clearly even though they are not even at the same focal distance. It is definitely better than the Bushnell Legend I have compared in this regard.

Can anyone tell me how this model does compare to the ProMaster ED?

If this bino is truely 95% + of a Zeiss FL then I'm amazed, some of you say it's better than that. Looking at my new Cabelas book that came yesterday they had the 10x42 FL's in there for $2299 . . . wow! At that price I can buy 6 Zen's - should be covered for future breakdowns!

cfran,

I have both. They are too close to call. About the only way to separate them is that the Promaster has a 393' fov and has the water and oil repellent coatings. Those coatings do work BTW. The ZEN has a 426'fov and does not have the repellent coatings. The ZEN image looks a tad brighter, but put them on tripods side by side and there is no difference in what detail one will resolve over the other. The ZENhas somewhat more streamlined and rounded eyecups which some people will prefer. The Promaster is a smooth covering and the Zen is stippled.

Yes, they really are that close optically to the alpha glass. Not equal certainly as the comparison is to silver coated prisms to the current dielectric mirror, the glass is probably technically better and the broadband coatings on the lenses is probably better in the alpha. The construction appears closer to the Vortex Razor-Pentax SP build quality.

The resolution specs for these binoculars is 3.2 arc seconds for the ZEN and 3.9 for the Promaster. From discussions on other forums, both are technically beyond the limits of the eye, and beyond my limits to comment any further than that. I have seen reviews of expensive glass that tested with resolution of >4 arc seconds, so the resolution is on par with the top.

You really have to take a look through these and see for yourself. They are a heck of a backup, pickup, loaner, or learner binocular even if you are a dyed in the wool alpha glass user. Optically they "look" to fall right in the middle of the $750 to $2,000 binoculars. Pretty darned good company considering their cost.

That's what I was looking for, thank you very much. The confusing part to me is I hear many people claim the Pentax SP are similar to Alpha glass - I've got a set of them at home and I'm not too impressed. Yes Pentax are decent but they are not Alpha binos, not that close in my opinion. I don't want to put down $359 for the Zens and find out they are just like SP's. But you make it sound like they are better than the SP's, is that correct?

Well, we sort of get into what two different eyes see. I bought Vortex Vipers because I liked them a little better than the SP. My 8x Viper did not survive the Promaster, and the 10x Viper probably won't survive the 10x ZEN. To MY eyes the Promaster/ZEN looks to have about the same optical improvement over the Viper as do the Alphas. For, ME, I doubt if somebody put a pre focused for me Swaro EL and a Promaster/ZEN side by side on a tripod, and I didn't' know which was which, I don't think I could tell one from the other(maybe now, but not without considerable time behind both). After looking several times, I suppose the EL does have a bit better image, but darned little better.

Do the deal with Doug and you can send 'em back if you decide I' full of beans.

Doug sells the Zens?

Thanks again Steve - your info. is very helpful!

No Zen Ray pretty much sells direct. Doug probably does not want to deal with the which is better question either. I doubt you will think your money has been mis-spent. The optics world would have barely cracked a yawn if the price was $600, it would still be a good deal.

Understood, thank you sir.

Check this thread, someone mentioned the comparison of ZEN with Pentax SP. I have this babe for a few days. They are impressive. The wide FOV definitely blew away my Legend, which itself is very good in every regard. I will take mine to sportsman's warehouse this weekend to compare.

The Zen Ray bins are in a class (like the other Chinese ED bins: Promaster and Hawke) which is clearly above the Pentax SP (I have a SP 8x32 and all of the Chinese ED bins). The color is better; brighter and sharper (that little bit of CA that you don't really see as stray color but as lowered sharpness is gone).

They are closer to the current alpha bins than to the mid-range bins like the SP. They even beat my older Zeiss Victory 8x40 ... even though I do like my one!

A couple of things about the SP's. The current models have some sort of Rain Guard coatings. That will degrade them a hair as previously noted.
The other is rugged constuction. They, the SP's, have been around for a while and have established a rep for being tough. This, in spite of the fact that they are made with magnesium frames. A material which is much harder to seal well than the aluminium alloy frames.
I wouldn't call the comparision of a 32mm SP to a 42mm class binocular fair unless I knew for a fact that the 32mm SP were every bit as good as the 43mm models. Usually they aren't. The 32mm size being much tougher to get right tahn the larger 42/43mm sizes. E

I missed alot of the SP vs. Zen comments here on the thread until now. In my experience I would agree that the Zen are definitely a step up optically from the SPs. The image is brighter, sharper, more contrasty (is that a word?)and, obviously, wider while still not giving up anything to flatness of field of edge sharpness.

At the time they were introduced the SPs were most certainly comparable to Alpha glass (again, at that time) but only in that their direct competitors in and about that price class were not.

Did that make sense?

Let me put it more simply. If the Alphas of the early part of this decade (SLC, Trivovid, early ELs) were an 8 or 9 on a scale of 1 to 10 and most mid-priced roofs were a 4 or 5 then the Pentaxs were in the 7 to 8 range.

Agreed. I've found if I work at it for a while, I can see a very small difference between my 8X43 Pentax SP's and either my 8X42 Leica BA or my Nikon LX 8X32.
I might rate it 1/2 point, rather than a full point under them. They, in turn, might be a 1/2 pt. below the very best of the alpha's out there now. E

But none of them have ED glass, E. And that makes a difference.

I note that all my ED glass bins are a step above the non-ED ones (even comparing in the same class: Zeiss FL to Zeiss Victory or Chinese ODM to Chinese ODM).

You can see the difference.

This thread will sell a lot of Zen bino's.

Now, If there were a riflescope in this bargain range that could compete with the $1000 stuff...

From what I have heard the threads on this forum and other forums have spurred some decent sales for these folks...as I am sure threads on other manufacturers do as well. More power to them. They are putting out top end optics at very reasonable prices. I wish it was the same way for every other product out there I want and/or "need".

I would also agree that the ED glass makes a substantial difference. I have seen non-ED roofs that display reasonably low levels of CA but usually at a compromise to field of view, edge sharpness or some other criteria. To find one that handles everything well usually requires the use of some form of extra low dispersion glass.

Man, as picky as guys here get about their scopes............. Use what you like, like what you use. I have more stringent requirements for my binoculars, less so for the rifle scope. Not sure I want to even go there.

I always thought ED is more like a marketing gimmick than anything else. But it seems to work, and work really well. It is apparent when comparing non ED binoculars on a high contrasty object.

I had the pleasure of spending a couple of days with a Pentax DCF SP and the new DCF ED. Both were brand new, both were 8X43's and looked so similar that I had to read the specs to tell which was which. Identical weights, etc.
As far as I could tell, the ED version was every bit as good as my Nikon LX 8X32 and 8X42 Leica BA. When I say "every bit as good," I'm refering to image sharpness, the ability to see the finest details.
There was a definite difference in both Pentax binoculars. I could find it every time I stacked them. But it took effort and several minutes to really see the difference. And I had to stack them to see it. E

Well I have very little bino knowledge, been using Nikon Monarch ATB 8/42 for about 2 years. I received the ZR 8/43 ED and did a comparison in the field. The ZR are definitely sharper, brighter and a pleasure to look through. The huge plus for me was focussing, the Nikons require constant rolling of the focus wheel, the ZR does not. I can pick up the ZR and bam, I am focussed on what I want to see. Sure, a little focussing is required if objects are at vastly different ranges but nothing compared to the Nikon. The Nikon is a decent bino for an average Joe like me but the ZR will now be my hunting optic, I am very impressed.

juliang,


Are the Zen Ray any bigger or heavier than your monarchs?

I have seen the weight published but not the dimensions.

And, how long did it take from the time you ordered to the delivery?

I am having a hard time decieding between the Zen Ray 8x43 and the new viper 6 x 32.............

Thanks in advance,

Red

Redeye171,

The ZEN ED is noticeably bigger than the Monarch. It's about 1/ 1/2 inches longer and some 6 ounces heavier.

juliang has the Monarch ZEN comparison correct. I have a Monarch and agree with him on all points. The $200 Zen Ray ZRS whacks the Monarch too.

You seem to have chosen very different binoculars there. The Viper would be nice for light packing and close in work and the ZEN will excel in general use and in lots of long range scanning. So if you have a particular use for the glass, fill the use you need with the glass you buy.

I primarily bow hunt deer and turkey with the occasional late season muzzleload hunt.

Have you any experience with the new viper 6x32 or the new diamondback 7x36?

ZEN weighs about 27oz, but feels like 24oz. I don't know an explanation, but it does not feel heavy at all. Mine was shipped out on Saturday and I got it on the following Tuesday. That's pretty darn good with free shipping.

although the binoculars are listed on the web site, neither the viper 6 x 32 or diamondback 7 x 36 have been released to the public as of yet. You can order, but the ship date hasnt arrived yet. Supposed to be available soon.

The new Vortex Diamondback won't show up until a little later. I do have a 7x36 preordered from Doug. For archery and muzzle loader, and for that matter rifle shot range, I'd go with one of the sub 8x compacts. I know the 6.5x32 Fury is good. How much better the 6x Viper may or may not be remains to be seen. Also how the 7x36 Diamondback rates to the other Vortex remains to be seen as well. The Swift Eaglet 7x36 has to be in that mix too. FWIW, that is one of my "keeper" binoculars.

A bit off topic but I learned a little bit about the bushnell ed's that will be coming out in a few months. They are being built on the legend line with the magnesium sp? frame. It sounds like the 10x42 will be the first run and the 2 big points of interest at least if the glass is good like the Zen and promasters are: 1. 23 oz. +or- and 2. $300 cost.

Yes, saw some discussion on this board before. By looking at the spec, it is more closely resembled Bushnell Excursion with its weight and field of view, with ED lens addition, than current Legend line. The question is whether it is open hinge like Excursion EX or close hinge one. BTW, old Legend is made in Japan. I remember it was mentioned somewhere that the new one is made in China.

Very true. Physical length, weight and cost are going to be some of the interesting sell points of these ED binoculars. I am just as eager as the rest of you...though it may take a bit longer for me to report as I am gunning for the 8x42s instead.

Hawker, I would have thought the excursion line as well but the guy from bushnell said legend and I believe closed bridge. He also said that the raised rubber armor coating on the past legend binos is now recessed into the frame.!?or as least appears to be. He said they look and feel great as the heavy raised armor on the legend was a common dislike in that line.

I should have a pair of Pentax DCF ED here soon. It will be good to put it side by side with the ZEN.

just what we needed. another chinese made binocular !!

Closed hinge. See the pictures

http://www.opticsplanet.net/bushnell-10x42-legend-ultra-hd-binoculars-rainguard.html

And branded Legend so I would expect it to be above the current Legend which is a very good bin (deals with difficult stray light as well as my Zeiss FL ... that rather threw me). I expect it to be a couple of notches above the Excursion.

If you are spec comparing it weight the same as the Elite

I know it is a matter of personal choice. Does someone take 6x on hunting? All my buddies use 10x or 12x.

I have (and use) Leupold 6 x 30's for archery hunting, as well as some Minox 8 x 33's. Higher power bino's (those 10x and above) arent of much use for the type of hunting I do in the areas I go.

I have been settling down at 8x lately. 12x is just too much for me. Maybe I should try some lower powered one and see if I will miss anything.