This is my second failure. This time my Leupold VX-L 4.5-14x50 B&C reticle will not focus above 4.5x.

This scope is babied. Has not been dropped. The screws on the rings are tight. Nothing is off. I know the rings are in alignment since I have a zero runout 1" SS bar.

Nothing is moving. Tonight I'm going to take it out of the rings and check the bases. I'm assuming they are fine.

This is on a lowly .30-06 btw.

Not sure if there is moisture in the scoope or is there a mechanical failure.

I'm super pissed.

Tom

chitt happens

Oh no say it ain't so!!! A Leupy failing, Oh NO!!!!!!!!

Yep, Leupold junk!

I'm not giving up on them yet because I do like the features they offer.

But the last 4 consecutive new scopes I bought I have had to send back to the factory for repair. Latest one was a
VX3 4.5x14 LR.

It's starting to get old putting up with this crap.

Don't give a Conquest a run whatever you do. It'll mess with your head.

It got old to a lot of us a long time ago

Im sure Leupold will get another replacement scope from China again for you.

The first one was a VX II 4-12x40 AO. POI shifting on each shot.

Tom

I'll take it!

send it back! These days too much chitt is failing. I just sent a Marlin 1894C back, you would think they knew how to make that gun by now..

Must have been custom made, never made a VX II 4.5-14

Gentlemen,
Are the new Leupold made in China and all assembly and manufacturing in US been closed down?

/Johan

no

Are components manufactured elsewhere with final assembly in the USA?
Cheers...
Con

[bleep] who knows, hell a set screw might be made in France for all I know.

Yes, according to numerous sources. Major components- not set screws. Primarily Asian. Mule Deer was one of the sources if memory serves but I won't swear to that.

Correct! Just checked. 4-12x40 AO. Will correct the post.

Tom

The main tubes are still made in Oregon, along with eyepieces. I know that much because I saw them being cranked out a couple of years ago.

They now have massive machines that can be fed billets of aluminum every few seconds. Finished tubes come out of the other end of the machine at the same speed.

You really should cut your losses and sell those dang chiwanese Leupolds asap, cheap. It's not worth the terrible aggravation you're going through. I hope you recover from this terrible ordeal.

In reality it's not that scary IF the product continues to be made to spec. I'd be very surprised however if the optical glass for example was being totally produced in the USA, let alone lesser components.

Leupold (if happening) wouldn't be the only optical manufacturer to outsource and reserve truly home made products to the absolute top of the range where costs to manufacture can be recouped. I'd still be very surprised if all the manufacture of the optical glassware was 'in house'.
Cheers...
Con

Con,

It is common knowledge in the optics industry that Leupold HAS NOT made their own glass the entire time they have made scopes.

They used to have contractors in the US producing their lenses and switched to Japanese glass in the 1970s..

No secret there.

And you know it's funny... Leupold was building their reputation for QUALITY with Japanese lenses in a time when the "experts" were making fun of "inferior" Japanese scopes..

Just pulled the scope off. Bases are fine. The issue is the scope.

They nay sayers can say what they wish. Two top dollar scopes fail is not just random chance.

I will get the replacement and use it. As for future purchases. I won't be buying anymore Leupolds. You can bet on that.

Tom

They have been using the same Japanese glass for years.

Tom

Just where are the "nay sayers" on this thread?????

I have searched high and low and cannot find ONE post critisizing you or saying you are mistaken for that your scope is not functioning properly.

I had the same problem with a VX III 4.5-14X50 LR during hunting season back in 08. I sent the scope back and they said (reworked scope to new condition). That's the respone I got on the work order they sent with the scope. I had it on a Rem 700 300RUM. I was rather pissed about the whole deal.

Send it back, quit carping, all brands have failures. I have likewise had some small troubles over the years. Leupold will fix it, period. They always have for me, quickly, and correctly.

Some brands just seem to have more than others

+1

One scope to rule them all,
one scope to find them,
one scope to bring them all,
...

And now you know the truth.

Gollum shoot S&B.

From Terry Cross on Snipers Hide:

I apologize in advance but I have to rant for a second.

I have always been a huge, huge Leupold advocate. They were always my benchmark for quality, innovation and U.S. workmanship. I own an awful lot of their product and continue to use it regularly.

However. . . . In the last few years, I have seen a change in the way Leupold does business and delivers product to the market. As they have grown, they have embraced many less than admirable traits that seem to define too many parts of American businesses. While their pricing has been steadily increasing at a faster rate than inflation, their quality has dropped. They are still capable of producing a sharp, repeatable optic but not as dependably.

My biggest aggravation with Leupold is the fact that less than 5% of their product line that can be legally stamped "Made in U.S.A." and I'm not even sure that those few are !!! What started out with a few of their Wind River imports has blown into an all out effort to prostitute their name brand for a dollar.

I just received 18 RX-4 range finders, 18 Tactical 10x50 Patrol Binoculars and 18 Mk 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm TMR Illum. scopes for a package deal I have to ship. This is pretty much suppossed to be their better gear. Guess what? Range finders "Made In CHINA". Binoculars "Made In China". Scopes have no country of origin marked on the packaging, instructions or product. Call back from Leupold informs me that the scopes are assembled in Oregon but so many of the parts and sub-assemblies are made over-seas (mostly China except for some of their lenses)that they do not qualify for the Made in USA stamp!

I can assure you that sourcing their components and products from China has dropped their costs very, very dramatically while they have continued to raise market prices. You know, honestly, it isn't even the price/profit thing that burns me. It is the fact that they chose to move their sourcing and manufacturing (I do consider "manufacturing" and "assembly" two different beasts in this instance) out of the country and specifically China. Why couldn't they keep most of their production here and just up their pricing 10%? Jesus, I could drop my selling price and triple my profit on freakin Pod-Loc kits if I used components from outside the U.S., but I refuse to go there. Guess that is why I still drive a 10 year old truck.

While they may still have satisfactory product performance and at least attempt innovative ideas occaisionally, I believe that they are straying from their roots, pumping a ton of money into foreign factories and putting yet another hole in the bottom of the lifeboat that retains at least a small fraction of our ability to domestically support our police and military logistics in the event of any serious conflict. I remain firmly convinced that we shall sorely curse the day that we wake up and realize that we need to raise our military to a task only to find out we have cut off our own legs. I aim this statement not only at Leupold but other textile, steel, electronics and molding industries based in the U.S. You don't just start that [bleep] back up inside the U.S. borders overnight.

I will continue to use my original Leupold products but I shall migrate away from giving their company blanket support. I will, instead continue to give more and more support to companies that take risks, accept slightly lower margins and consciously make the effort to strengthen our own economy and workforce. As you purchase your gear or spec out the equipment for your agency bids, please consider more than F.O.V. and click value.

I would seriously love to debate the execs at Leupold in front of their Board about some of this.

DISCLAIMER: I know that some out there will have personal budgets at home that restrict your choices to imports and I totally respect that. A non-US product is better than no product at all in some cases.

DISCLAIMER #2: Yeah, that was more than a second. Sorry.
TC

Answer from Lowlight on Snipers Hide.

Amen,

Every year they seem to get farther and farther away from what made them the company worthy of the reputation they have, which I personally feel is no longer warranted.

The shear number of them we see problems with is staggering, on military weapons systems no less. They seem to be completely out of touch with the shooter, all shooters, Civilian, Law Enforcement, and Military.

Unfortunately people still flock to their products based on the past reputation, regardless of the fact their current products don't hold up to that standard.
LL







From Lowlight on Snipers Hide:

So what do you tell the guy who traveled 1200 miles to take a class.. he paid $1500 for the class, plus rental car, hotels, meals, and by the first day it fails... now he goes from what he thought was a solid optics with a stellar reputation to being the guy holding up the class while we run up, get a new scope for him, usually I am pulling one of my NF off to switch it for him. If you want to play the one up and working, the NF I use is heavily used, my S&Bs too, and guess what, of all of them, with more combined rounds than I can count, and only one scope has ever gone back for repair. They well worn and definitely show signs of use.

yes, other brands fail, but not nearly with the frequency as we are seeing with Leupold. it's every week in some cases, and even in the military classes we have Nightforce on the unit rifles next to Leupold... but I don't see the NF failing nearly as much, it's stark the reality of it, especially when you see more than 1 or 2 a week.

It's easily 20 to 1 when you compare the Nightforces on the line with the military units, this last class had 4 Leupolds on the line, 1 failed the first day, the remainders where USO, NF, and S&B... Do we see others fail, sure but not nearly as much.

If you want to start a generic scope failure thread go ahead, but don't be surprised by the results. Facts are what the facts are, in a class of 15 Leupolds on the line I expect and account for anywhere from 2 to 5 scopes to go down, I don't figure that with the same number of NF on the line. Its closer to 1 per every six months of classes, not 1 for every six people.



dave

jwp,
I wonder if the fact we hear more about Leupy failures might be because there are more of them out there on rifles than probably all others combined? It would be interesting to know how many they have built in the past 15 years and how many they have serviced so we could get a true picture.
This scope debate has a lot in common with winning the powerball lottery. We only hear about the occassional lottery winners (scope loosers) . There is no one talking about the tens of millions of loosers every week.(scope winners)

Dave,
I wish I had read your post before I posted mine. I too struggle with the same outsourcing in the sport and industry I sell into and deal with the same manufacturing issues on a daily basis. Looks like it is time for an American optics company to start making Leupold price range optics here in the USA. They (instead of Leupold) could capitalize on Leupy's reputation especially if the new company was loaded with Leupy people.
Filson has done the same thing in the past few years. Looks like both of what we thought were traditional American companies are now feeding at the eastern Asian trough and that is sad.
Remember though that most consumers demand the pricing and are willing to put up with a little aggravation to get the price (Walmart mentality). That has become the bulk of our consumers. If anyone tries to compete with American made products IMO they need to have a clear understanding of their market. IN most cases it is sad. Support those that support you. (a simple concept)

Dave

Not long ago, someone posted the stats for most popular selling brands but I can't find the link. Scope brand was either Bushnell or Tasco. For sheer volume, it's always the cheap stuff. I think people confuse brand recognition and volume. There's not a hunter alive that wouldn't consider Leupold to be the most recognized brand name however.

RT,



dave

maybe those chinese leupold knock off's aren't so bad after all ??
just sayin....

Only reason I got mine was because of the compact packaging, light weight, and CDS. Someone else (Vortex possibly) starts doing those three things and I'll buy from them. Sightron has two of the three qualities I want, just not that third. Plus I can't find a Sightron (Big Sky) anywhere for me to look through. Hard to buy it when I've never even seen it.

I believe I read of Leupold having had issues with their leaf spring system in their scopes. I also believe I read that they have corrected the issue, but are not retrofitting the old scopes.
All second hand info, and based on my fuzzy memory.

Considering the number of leupy is out there, occasional fails are expected.

I might have a Leupie failure on my hands too, will confirm tomorrow when I visit the range.

MtnHtr

I hear that, Tony.

There are Swarovski AV's out there on closeout right now that aren't much more than Leupold money. $679 for a 3-9x36, $799 for a 3-10x42. They are comparably light and compact as a Leup, and have a low-profile turret that is not as slick as a CDS but is still plenty usable.

Some brands sell a heck of a lot more scopes than others.

I am amazed at what lenghts some folks go to justify the extra expense of a Euro scope. I'll add I'm in a position that I can afford ANY scope I want, when I want it without having to save or put it on a credit card. Not bragging, just facts. I own Leupolds, Swarovskis and Zeiss, the European made stuff too, not the cheapo Conquests. I'm sorry, I just can't see the justification for spending almost three times the price of a VX3 for maybe a 2-3% increase in low light capability(and that's just for argument's sake I can't really see it but I'll concede the point). I've hunted a lot, not as many as some of you here, but I have enough "asstime" in the woods of Dixie at dusk and in Africa to offer an educated opinion. For the money, you just can't touch a Leupold and as far as durability, there is nothing tougher. An opinion that's all this is. If you like the Euros and feel a need to spend that kind of dough, go right ahead, but don't try and tell me the euros are "hands down" (or any other hyperbole) better. jorge

let's see a 6.5-20x50 lr 30mm, needed to back that came off my barrett. dahh, i can see this one !
a 2-7 i bought off a member here.
a bushnell 3200 3-9
and a zeiss conquest

seems i have bad luck with scopes !
but a sample of different makes and models that all have had to go back for issues.

holding zero iirc for all them.

i'll still buy leupold, best service out there.

Sounds like narrow, myopic tunnel vision for someone with your kind of money, experience, and world knowledge. Or perhaps just another desperate & nonsensical attempt to justify your patronage to a company whose products are failing at a far greater rate than ever before as they continue to offer their Superior Grade Products with ever increasing price scales to lure in the masses who have their fingers crossed and are praying they get a scope with repeatable settings that will hold up under normal conditions?

Give me a [bleep] break .

Wow Clay that is pretty good right there.

HorHay has always been a bit condescending and opinionated and that post of his is a good example of that.

NF and SB make excellent optical sights for some extreme duty applications and they are very well suited for a heavy precision rifle. But even their smallest most compact scopes marketed for hunting are bulkier with more weight than I care for on a sporting rifle. Such scopes mounted on a mid to light weight hunting rifles gives the appearance of a midget wearing a ten gallon hat:) Add to this a price tag three times over what most are willing to pay for a simple hunting rifle optical sight, makes for a hard pill to swallow.

I'm in the "hunting rifle scope is a gun sight camp" and I'm not in the "hunting rifle scope is an observation piece camp". I like small, light, and simple when it comes to "hunting rifle scopes" and I'm not into the L scopes or the huge objective lenses, or non-standard reticle systems, etc. I like the durability of simplicity. I've always had good results with such scopes from LEU and have found they hold up better than most everything else. I've also seen a regular pattern of scope failures of all makes outside of upper end military applications when persons use the larger variables with more mass and more stuff to shake loose on rifles beyond the recoil of a sporter weight mid bore. Physics are physics, and recoil of my sporter weight 30'06 is stronger than that of my heavier issued M40 of years back, and it is stronger than that of my smaller bore coyote rifle. My 30'06 recoil will be harder on the scope than the other two. Of course the Military scope I had on the M40 will hold up to the '06, but I'd pay for it in bulk and handling. In the end, I tend to put bigger hunting scopes on heavier low recoiling rifles, and I tend to put smaller scopes on lighter heavy recoiling rifles. I also tend to save military scopes for military applications.

Best:)

Why on earth would I want to justify patronage of a particular company? Why is it narrow and myopic, because it doesn't agree with yours?I patronize the Euros as well is that myopic and patronizing too? Come to think of it, I've had one Leupold fail, a 1X4 VXII on a 458 years ago and none of my Euros have failed. Luring the masses? excellent point. Years ago (circa 1998 or so) Zeiss used to market a scope called the Diavari, mostly assembled here that sold for 500 dollars. They stopped making it when they introduced the Conquest. So they market a cheaper scope put the name Zeiss on it and bingo, instant sucess. Give me a break.

I don't know that Leupold's market share is but it stands to reason it's a big chunk and I expect with more sales you get a bigger % of failures. Lastly, this is a forum Clay, a FORUM where people posts their opinions and I've posted mine. I don't have tunnel vision nor am I myopic Clay, when I see something that's good value I use it instead of being hung up on a name. As far as being opinionated and condescending nsgam, well like I said before, it is a forum. As to condescending, well I have to deal with people like you that bring nothing to the dicussion other than ankle-biting. jorge

Since I can't afford the top dollar scopes out there and since I'm going to have live with failure, I think I'm going to take a step down on scopes. I think I'm going Bushnell next time. They have roughly the same warranty and heck they are both going to fail.

I may give Vortex a try. Though right now they don't make the scope I'm looking for.

Tom

No better scope for the money than the Bushnell Elite 4200 3-9x40 for well under $250.

During Easter David come to visit as he is stationed at Ft. Hood. We tryed to sight in his Win 270 with a 3.5X10 VXlll, after a box and a half or ammom wasted, we decided to change scopes. I installed a 4x16 4200 Elite and we were doner in short order.
Mybe I am unlucky, but I;ve had enough of the Leupy Shuffle to last me for a very long time

I would certainly hope their failure rate doesn't change with a bigger market share, unless its percentage goes down. Larger number of failures (since you have more scopes out there), maybe, not a larger percentage.

Gents: If Leupolds fail me like they have some of you, no doubt I'd change my tune and if there is documented and not anectdotal evidence of increased Leupold failures, it would be a great benefit to all of us here. jorge

One brand sells more than all the others






Casey

But percentage wise... shouldn't be higher than any others.

Just for arguments sake, lets say some of the shooters on here have 20 Leupolds, 4 Nikons, 8 Bushnells, 4 Vortexs, 12 Zeiss...

More Leupolds, but percentage wise, should have the same failure rate. If 5 of those 20 Leupolds fail, then we have a 25% failure rate.

25% of Nikon's and Vortex 4 scopes would be 1 failure each.
Bushnell would be 2 failures.
Zeiss would be 3 failures.

What it sounds like is Leupold is having its multiple failures, but the others aren't on the same track. For this example, sounds like Leup is failing and yet the Nikon might have less than one failure per four scopes, Bushnell has less than 2 failures per 8 scopes, and Zeiss has less than 3 for its 12 scopes.

The actual number of scopes failing isn't the issue, sounds like they are having a higher percentage of failure. Really doesn't matter how many are being sold, it comes down to the ratio. Pretty basic math, but seems to be escaping some. Once again, isn't how many are being sold, is the ratio of solid vs suck.

I would love to see some accurate numbers of failure rates though. Only scope to actually fail me was a Simmons out of four Leupolds, four Nikons, and that one Simmons.

aka MKBenenson. On a hunt, take two scopes, both sighted in, in reliable return to zero quick detachable mounts.

+1
dave

Read the previous posts that address this issue ...... enough said.


Care to explain the incongruity in your two quoted statements below from the same post? Absolutely clear as mud.






Seems to me you're all about the name.

you know at some point all of this gets confusing. Some folks swear by them, some folks swear at them. We all read stories about this Leopold goes down or that Leupold goes down. Truth is mechanically a Leupold you bought 20 years ago may be different than one bought today. Its my opinion all companies are looking for ways to save cost in manufacture. 25 years ago you could buy a refrigerator that is still running today, today a fancy refrigerator is said by a reliable repair man to be good for about 5 years. Wires are thinner, poorly molded plastic parts are abundant, things just are made these days to reduce cost, but offer perceived value. A scope manufacturer looks at its buyer base and says 90% of these guys shoot less than 20 rounds per year. So they build a scope that will last 300 rounds a year for 10 years and call it good. Then a fellow that shoots 500 rounds a year trashes the scope and the bellowing begins. So to honor their commitments they have a good repair service, which I have personally used twice. I expect that the fixed scopes will be tough as nails, but I don't expect that any venders $300-$400 3 x 9 x 40 will last as long for a guy that shoots a 300WM under it and shoots it a lot. The variability in experience is dictated by cost of components, cost of labor, and actual use. Then there are design factors, a $500 rifle scope that weights 14 ounces and has 4 inches of eye relief is desirable, while an 18 ounce rifle scope that has 3.3 inches of eye relief may for some reason be more rugged? My conclusion is that when someone can say my XYZ brand rifle scopes are great, while the next guy can say the XYZ brand scopes suck they may both be right. Was XYZ brand made last year, 20 years ago, and how many times a year has it been under recoil acceleration?

Only the company could quantify it. I've spoken with a few blokes that had them fail ... but why? One had x2 VX3 1.5-5x scopes destroyed on a 458Lott ... always replaced ... eventually tracked it to a mounts issue. Another friend had a 1.5-5x do a legitimate dummy spit ... replaced under warranty. Another destroyed a 2.5x compact ... survived almost 300 shots ... from a braked 585Nyati.

I have a 6x Leupold nobody here would give me $50 for ... but by golly its survived some wars ... and looks it!
Cheers...
Con

give me your address I will send $50.00

But that's what I mean--I'm skeptical the proportion of Leupys failing are any different than others. Leupold outsells practically everybody else combined in the "better" end of scopes.

This is America--we build something up and then tear it down.

Also, I'm quite sure that Leupold is flattered to be compared to scopes costing 2, or 3, or 4 times as much.......

I don't shoot big boomers much, and I only have a couple of the newer VX's, everything else are the Vari-X's, but I've yet to have the pleasure of using Leupold's cutomer service--and I have Leupolds that are 30+ years old.


Casey

But they are not so flattered that their scopes are being compared to ones which cost 1/2 as much and provide similar or better performance.
The Bushnell Elite 4200's come to mind.

Ditto. Good to know their customer service is one of the best in the business. Send it back. If it can't be fixed, they'll replace it.

FWIW, and, one would think I'd have learned to even go here in this forum, but I've likely owned at least 50 Leupolds (likely more) and had to send two in for service - exceptional service on both occasions.

The flip side; I've owned four Conquests - one needed to be sent in for service. Based on my experience, because that's all that counts for me, I like the Leupold odds in the mid-range category.

Nsagam, recall a dealer who said 4200s had glass equal Swaro? All I know is they do mfg. good glass, and for some reason I'd rather my $ go to Japan before China, and that inc. via Leupold Overseas express

I have no big gripe w/Leupold, really like the fixed powers that few other brands fool with nowadays, but it does suck they are not the company that customers helped build up.

Let's be glad that as far as I know, the customer service dept. is based in the USA.

I guess a good sales strategy from the CEO would be to buy 2 scopes to get one good one, or to have a back up while you send one in for repair? Just kidding.

It is sad for many reasons that the scopes are no longer 100% made in USA......w/Jap glass.

No doubt there is an irony to logic of consumers as stated above in where a brand's product is mfg. and what the perception is of that country's quality.

One thing is certain, where there is opportunity, competitors will jump in. NF mfg. a 2-10x32 to 'lighten things up' so I imagine a few more USA products will vie for USA made dollars for consumers opting for QUALITY MADE in USA products.

There is no doubt a big discrepancy in overall cost for going to a Euro brand, but Terry Cross brings up very good points. Leupold has had inflation of near 7% if not more yr. to yr. while national inflation was perhaps 2%. All the while lowering their cost, deporting labor......outsourcing.....it got my attention too years ago and you can see the Globalization of Leupold, as WalMart has done. The world we live in.

My personal experience w/Leupold quality has been good, and service good, but based on changes at Leupold, have no loyalty to them sad to say, so will shop for performance/price...Value regardless of brand. There was a time long ago where Leupold was my 'go to' brand, but things change.

To the OP, I hope you get your scope repaired quickly and it has a long life of service for you sir.

I'm sorry I just don't have the time to sort out your comprehension issues. The two statements are stand alones, but it's clear you have an ax to grind against Leupolds and proferred your opinion as I have. jorge

Yea, Bushnell and you don't hear as much about thier failure rate

A better scope for less money in my experience

Thank God because their repair center sucks anyway.

The best service is the one you never use.

Leupy has a great service center, after all, practice makes perfect.

I agree on the service.

So, shall we just schedule the Leupold sucks/Leupold works thread for the first of every month? Or should it be twice a month?

And do the Campfire members who always log on and say the same things get extra credit for perfect attendance?

samples of one again...

Scope is in the mail back to Oregon. I'm out a scope and $23.62.

The only way I'm going to be happy is a complete replacement with prompt service.

Tom

And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Adds up after a while

I would never say Leupold sucks. They make some very nice products and care enough to back them up.
My contention is that other manufacturers provide equal or better product at significantly less cost.

We can't forget that Tom the OP spent his money on one of the higher end Leupold scopes and it didn't work. No matter the resolution from Leupold, Tom is without a scope right now.

jwp475, why don't you and Dave take your little anti-Leupold circle jerk somewhere else? [bleep] gets real old!

Oh the intertnet police, post only what I like . Facts be dammed

I am begin to wonder if some even know when a scope teracks properly and when one doesn't

A scope that tracks properly will zero quickly, like in 2 shots. Those that wonder around take more ammo

Nope, not the internet police...I can't stand E's Leupold worship BS either. It's just that like clockwork, any time anything negative about Leupold comes up, you and Dave are the first two over here nodding in agreement. I'm guessing any time you read about a Leupold failing you just get a big ol' smile on your face. But, I guess that's what makes you happy, so carry on.

It's what they live for. Over the years they have refined their silly little rantings to a few tired, canned retorts. They seem to have a couple of new recruits. Somewhat entertaining, but surely not unexpected. The optics forum is kinda like stepping over pigchit to get to the bacon..

I can see the point of someone who purchases a leupold and has repeated problems posting their comments, while being cognizant of the fact that any product will have a problem sometime.

What I don't understand is those who hate Leupold and who have had nothing other than problems and will not consider buying another for now, constantly posting the same/same over and over. You don't think they give you what you want, don't buy. I don't particularly like certain rifle brands that others think are great. I don't come on and bash them every time their name is mentioned.

Then again, I'm sure they only are trying to lookout for me because they care so much.

Yup...

I don't think Leupold makes junk. I actually think they make a pretty decent scope. It's just with two higher end units failing on me, I think I'm ready to go in a different direction.

The first time, the VX-II, failed, Leupold wouldn't tell me what went wrong. That really burned my biscuits. I even talked to a supervisor and he wouldn't or couldn't say. I still went out and bought another one.

If Leupold treats me 100% right on this one, then maybe down the road I'd come back. I have a VX-III 6.5-20X50 that has been spot on for better than 10 years now.

So again I'm not bashing just sharing my experience. Which up to now has been three scopes purchased and two sent back for repair. In total I have approximately $2k of my money sent their way.

Tom

Tom,

My comments weren't directed at you. Heck, you've only got 54 posts total. jwp and Dave have more Leupold-bashing posts than that in a month.

-Dan

I dont bash 'em...I just dont buy 'em. Been driving Nikons for about 12 years now. Always been great scopes. Have occasionally tried a new something every now and then but always go back to the nikons. Thinking about trying something new this year just because. If it works great. If not, I'll just buy another nikon.

I vote for first of Month. Con send me your address so I can send you $50.00 for the 6X leupold.

I had an Elite take a dump recently, one of two Bushnells I own, so I guess I could say they have a 50% failure rate.

Bill

Double yup....

[quote=Tony270WSM]
The actual number of scopes failing isn't the issue, sounds like they are having a higher percentage of failure. Really doesn't matter how many are being sold, it comes down to the ratio. Pretty basic math, but seems to be escaping some. Once again, isn't how many are being sold, is the ratio of solid vs suck.

Tony270WSM...there are two ways to look at this. In studies that are done with empirical data...the larger the data or object...the more true failure rate comes up. This is why in group studies they have a larger number of subjects. For example having 4,000 scopes in a study and obtaining 10% failure would equate to 400 scopes fail. Now having 8,000 scopes in a study and having 5% fail would give ya 400 scope failures. This is a true failure rate and it is hard to obtain because not every one complains and not everyone participates on ONE optics forum devote entirely to Leupolds. What I am trying to say is the number of sold scopes can change the overall scope failures. But most important from a large study is...with a larger number scopes sold....you (we customers) expect failure rates to go down. Leupold certainly does as they hawk their scopes with pride and charges an arm and leg for their scopes.

I am not making a stand on the best scope...I think Leupold is. However...I do not run out and buy the best and newest scope Leupold releases. My Vari-X III will do good for me...not sure how it stacks up in the last gleaming light before night befalls. However I am not going to pay $250 more for the "just in case" last 30 seconds I see Mr Monster.

I think this way because whilst in college in my electronics class...we had an elective course in Optical design. My instructor had his BS/MS in EE and a BS in ME. He was a retured Navy guy and worked on Submarines specifically optics. He loved to hunt and fish and in one class I asked him about scope optics and asked him with all of these advancements are these necessary or bebeficial. He stated that the advances in optical leapfrogs pretty quickly but in truth the human will never get all of that benefit in advancement...the human eye is its limitation. In the Navy the optics on submarine is much more an indicator of usafulness of advancement and how we can benefit. In short...he will not pay the $$ to keep up with technology. (remember this was 25 years ago but Leupy was touted heavily back then too!).

To this day I see Leupold doing alot of promotion and raising the price of their Leupold and this to me is all hype (no I am not downgrading Leupy) because their *very* small advancement they are touting it loudly and asking for 1/2 of your limbs but this does not bother me. Yes I can afford to buy more higher scope but my money can be used better elsewhere. I do not own any V-3 and only one V-III and do not feel I have been lacking. I think Leupy is basing their success on what others think on their reputation. Yeah they are good scopes...I'll give you that...but not sure if a $600 scope will function THAT much better than a $350 scope. Of course if I want to buy a new scope I still look at Leupold's lineup but I also know that my Monarch just keep ticking along...

I hear from a good source that the Burris Fullfield II is a good scope for less than what you'll pay for Leupold. Why want give your money to Burris instead of to Leupold and be happy about it?

Had one of the new burris's, made in the phillipine's, fail after 30 rds of 06, the older ones, especially the fixed power are great

I like chocolate ice cream.

Carry on...

I've had Phillipine Burris's, but they never failed me. We all have different experiences, and may disagree b/c of that, but that does not make someone wrong or right, just different track records. I have nothing against Nikon, but do get concerned seeing many 'sales' on refurbs on them at say Natchez/SWFA.

It begs the question, are those formerly broken/repaired scopes? Or just 'excess inventory' being sold off as '2nds' or refurbs? It does not instill confidence if those Nikon's were all sent back for repair due to failing.

One thing is for sure, when you get something that works, you have confidence, and when it does not work as intended, you lose confidence. Perception is reality and the truth lies w/in each individual's specific product/experience in question.

Thankfully for me, I have had very few true failed scopes of any brand, from Weaver, B&L/Bushnell, Burris, Tasco, Nikon, Leupold, Swaro, Etc. Have sent a few Leupold's back to get 'checked out' under their warranty program that I bought used.....and never had a complaint on customer service. BUT, I do agree w/above, the best scenario is never need it.

I wonder if the RISE in ALL brand scope failures is related to any RISE in the number of larger cartridged rifles, as their has been it seems a trend to the larger capacity Magnum rounds, and also in lighter rifles which adds G-force I understand?

"If your Leupold product fails to perform in any way, please contact a Leupold Product Specialist within our technical service department to determine if the problem can be solved without sending the product to Leupold.
Many times, the problem can be solved without sending the scope to us. Leupold technical service will assist you with the problem in the best and most efficient manner.

Leupold and Stevens, Inc. is an American, family-owned, fifth-generation company that has been designing, machining, and assembling precision optical instruments for 100 years. Leupold�s� success has been built on our commitment to your absolute satisfaction, and our commitment to building the best optics for the shooting sports and for the law enforcement / military community. It�s for these reasons that we offer the Leupold Full Lifetime Guarantee.

If any Leupold Golden Ring� product is found to have defects in materials or workmanship, we will, at our option, repair or replace it. FREE. Even if you are not the original owner. No warranty card is required. No time limit applies." - LEUPOLD

The above along with the availability of lighter and more compact scopes with a big eye box is a reason I tend to look towards Leupold first when it comes to an optical rifle sight used for hunting. I wish the world was perfect and every mass produced product fit perfectly, every commercial round of ammo shot perfectly out of every barrel, every big scope with many moving parts were as durable to recoil as their smaller and less complicated counterparts, and that there was no need to vet your tackle to ensure that everything was squared away. Things would be much easier:)

But in reality, expect everything to need hand fitting with proper vetting to shake out the bugs. Expect any large scope of any make, outside a super duty military grade optic sight, to fail at some point to excessive recoil above a mid-bore sporter weight rig, and expect Leupold Service to repair or replace any Gold Ring product if you have any problems with scope failures due to materials or workmanship.

In addition to having Leupold correct the scope problems, if you find yourself pissed off and unsure, you can always vent your frustrations on this forum to help alleviate your felt anger:)

Best:)

This sums it up neatly for me. If I'm basically choosing between scopes assembled in America from foreign glass and assemblies... then I'm gonna survey the field.

I agree on the big eye box, but it bears remembering that this is only at low power settings... at high power settings, the Leupold design in general really "pulls away" from the eye; eye relief shortens dramatically and eye box shrinks a bunch.

I've gotten used to the more constant eye relief of Conquests and my new Swaro. It's nice to not have the scope run away from you when you turn up the power. And yeah, the tradeoff appears to be low-power eye box.

Jeff, the Conquest is a good scope, but using it as an example of why Leupold is still a viable choice is such:

I just compared a VXII 3-9 x 40 with a Conquest 3-9 x 40 for a mixed use calling rifle. Though the Conquest has 3/10ths of one inch greater eye relief at max magnification, it has over 21% less FOV at 100 yards compared to the VXII at the same max setting. The VXII has multi-coat 4 lens system with 1/4MOA adjustments and ample range. It is a well balanced 12.4� long package weighing only 12.4oz, is very forgiving, and generally goes for under $300. On the other hand, the Conquest is a bulkier 13.5� in length, weighs nearly a full pound, and generally goes for around $400. I had greater preference towards the VXII and am confident I�ll lay down the same predators I�d lay down if I went with the Conquest.

I have serious doubts that somehow I�d be unable to vet my rifle with the LEU and be prone to failures, whereas going the route of the Conquest or Bushnell, etc, would somehow allow me to better vet my rifle and allow me to successfully hunt. I just do not see that happening in the civilian consumer market. In military applications, yes; but in that context, all of the scopes noted would be tossed in the trash heap outside of scopes such as the NF, SB, etc.

Best:)

Great product never ever a problem with them. There just for you I lied

I'm doing my best at trying to break a FXII 6x36. I'm currently at 60 rounds on my 8.5lb all up .300 WinMag. So far so good and nothing funky.

This topic would be better named "give up all hope about scopes" rather than "Another Leupold Failure"

I have had Leupold, Zeiss, Kahles, now Nightforce, all with problems that required a trip to the factory. We shoot more than ordinary humans and I guess scopes break after a while.

Iron sights never went back to the factory, good value too!

I'm reading this and wondering why some Leupold owners take all this so personally ? I mean get real. It's a sighting device, not your first born.

My 3-9x40 Vari XIIC went off last week for a reseal, repurge and recharge nitrogen. Other than that, the scope worked fine. I have had quite a few Leupold fail but I have owned quite a few and don't baby them. Plus, I did own a high percentage of magnum rifle at .300 H&H or above. I suppose that contributes to the failure rate. That and a lot of range time.

Sometimes the coolaid,has a little pee in it.

dave

I think the point is that losing its' nitrogen should not happen. It still had to be sent to Leupold at your expense and then it is back to the range to sight in again. Should not happen, mounted on a magnum rifle or not. But it does, so it seems....with regularity.

I only buy Leupold scopes now when a Zeiss is too big for the particular application...which is rarely.

Simply amazing the lengths many will go to justify their choices!!! Some will argue that X is better than Z or X is tougher than Z but in the end, most will concede that most scopes are aiming devices.

If the scope is old enough , they ALL eventually lose whatever gas is inside the tube.

Like Mike Sexton down at Ironsite put it the other day,

"If you had a set of tires on a car for 30-40 years, would you expect them to remain inflated with the same amount of pressure after 40 years with no air added over that time???"

Seals shrink and leak over time. On any scope, if you own it long enough. Be thankfull Leupold at least does the work free of charge, even on a scope they built before you were born.

Need I say more

BobinNH... this is your time!

Sorry Jim but I have to disagree. A 3-9 VXIIC should not have lost its' seal so soon. They are not that old (but I am). And comparing car tires to scopes is not a valid argument. I don't think a scope (with a full seal all around the lenses) should be compared to a 4000 pound car sitting on its' tires all the time with cheapo 2 cent valves holding back the pressure. Leupold scopes better be better sealed than that!

The statment about the seals came from Mike Sexton at Iron sight in Tulsa..And he was talking about older scopes. So was I.

He repairs more scopes in a month than most folks here will ever see in their lifetimes.Including you.

As to your argument that seals should never fail that is simply silly given all the moving parts on most scopes. Anything can happen overtime.

Even Euro made scopes need such servicing during their lifetime's as well.

RDFinn,



Here all this time I thought mine is a rifle mounted spotting and verification system. Live and learn.

Nope........just bullet holes

The troubles I have had with Leupold scopes was almost always to do with erector assemblies. So, maybe it is time for a bit of Viagra, eh?

Roy, can you tell the difference between .223 and .224 holes? If you can't, I have a person you need to talk to....LOL

It's all about how well you "Focus" on life!!!!

don't the new Leupolds have the doublespring system on the erector system now? You would think this would be better than the old system.

I have a new 4.5-14x50 VXIII illuminated 30mm in classified That I paid $925 bucks for and cannot even get $700.00 for it new.

To me that is a Leupold failure.

Leupold popularity is dying for sure.

It's not Leupold's fault you cannot get full street price out of a USED scope that does not even have the origional box or a picture included on your listing. That you also listed on a Monday.

There are LOTS of other brands of $500++ scopes sold on the Classifieds that only bring 2/3 of what they sell for new..

In the last month I have seen Leica,Kahles and Zeiss scopes sell used here on the fire for the same proportion of their going street price.

Quite frankly I'm amazed at the prices used Leupold scopes bring.

Even the old Vari-XII scopes bring ~$200. There a ton of significantly better scopes available brand new for around that price.

This is a Leupold success story to me. Even if it is just a marketing/perception success.

To borrow a phrase I saw posted here long ago, it's a place to hold your crosshairs. Most of mine have a gold ring. They work and work well for me and have for years and they're available @ a price point that is not offensive to me. Should I need it, I know their cust svc is hassle free and will have a goofed up scope back to me in a reasonable time. I can pay more for a different brand of scope, possibly get more for my $$$, but I won't feel warm and fuzzy doing so. Therefore I stick with what I know and with what's been working for me for a number of years.

I have a Leupold success story!!!!

I Just sold my last Leupold on classified!

Elite's aren't bad scopes, but I don't see many comparisons of them vs Leupold.......



Casey

Congrats

Although Bushnells are sold at a lot of the big box stores, I not so sure they outsell Leupold. Nor do I see evidence their failure rate is any less (or more for that matter).

Leupolds are a mid-priced scope in a world where a hunting scope can cost $40-$2500. For eyebox, quality of optics, weight and yes, reliability, they are still the best scope the average guy can reasonably afford.

A $2000 Schmidt & Bender on top of an elk rifle reminds of somebody who would drive to elk camp in a canary yellow Hummer.......



Casey

There have been a lot of such comparisons over the years at opticstalk.

The VXIII and the newer VX3 are the ones most closely approximating the 4200's.

This thread is a hornets nest of opinion so at the risk of getting stung I will pass on a bit of knowledge that was recently passed on to me.

First was info from Richard Near. The guy that builds some very nice scope mounts. I was inquiring why his Alpha mounts had the rings positioned so far forward on the scope tubes. Richard has his finger on the pulse of world wide competition and military precision shooters who must be able to place the first shot accurately and count on precise tracking. The reason the rings are placed the way they are is that on his favorite brand of scope, Leupold the erector assembly is hinged right in front of the power selection ring. He has found that any distortion to the tube at this point on the scope causes all sorts of problems with the performance of the scope. Some of them are repeated here time after time as a problem with the scope when it in fact is a case of improper mounting or defective mounts. Those problems are tracking issues. With the erector all bound up it may take a few shots to settle in or may never move predictably. I have had this problem myself and was guilty of blaming the scope. Other less annoying problems are a hard to turn power ring, loss of gas or fogging, out of focus issues.

Once it's done if done bad enough the scope will need to be repaired. Usually lapping the rings or not torquing the screws so tight will remedy the problem. 12-15 inch pounds is plenty. The ideal is get your rear ring moved as far forward as you can. Look at the pictures on Near's sight and it shows most of the rings pretty far forward. It looks funny but if you want absolute tracking reliability you will find a way to do it. Using his advise I now can get zeroed in 2 to 3 shots. The thicker tubed scopes like Night Force, Swarovski, Zeiss, etc are still susceptible to the same problems but it takes more pressure on the tube to make it happen. Schmidt Bender places the battery housing over the hinge point to prevent rings from being placed on this most sensitive spot.

Schmidt Bender goes on, �The majority of scope and consistency problems can be traced to improper mounting. Unless you are skilled in mounting riflescopes, we recommend that you have a qualified gunsmith mount your Schmidt & Bender riflescope. Also, use the finest quality rings and bases possible.�

Now as far as where Leupold is made. Here is the response to that very question that I asked a friend who works there just sent to me.

"Leupold rifle scopes, binoculars, and spotting scopes that wear a gold ring are made in Beaverton, Oregon. All aluminum fabrication and all assembly is done in Beaverton. Lenses are manufactured in China to strict specifications and also stringently tested to ensure they meet all specs. Rifleman scopes and the new line of Redfield scopes are also machined and assembled in Beaverton. The cost of lenses is a major part of a scope, enough cost that the company could not claim a 100% "Made in USA" label, so it was dropped. Leatherman had the same problem with one of their tools. A single spring was made in China and that was enough to stop them from putting a Made in USA tag on their tool. Leupold products with a green ring, primarily binoculars and laser ranging devices, are made in China. All optical and mechanical design work is by engineers in Beaverton."

"Beaverton facility employs nearly 600 people. Leupold is among the biggest consumers of aluminum stock on the West coast. They have row after row of turning lathes and CNC mills. Rifle scopes are assembled in a clean room so that no dust or debris can get into a scope. There is an impact testing rig that slams scopes at much higher forces than they will ever see in the field. Competitors scopes are typically destroyed by tests that all Leupold rifle scopes must pass.

Lenses were made in China when I started there in 2001, don't know how long before that. As I said before, optical specification and design is from optical engineers and scientists in Beaverton and all lenses are tested to ensure they meet those specs. I can assure you there is nothing second rate about Leupold glass.

Again, many Leupold products are made in China, most binoculars and all range finders and most spotting scopes. But ALL gold ring products are made and assembled in Beaverton. Many old time Leupold employees are unhappy that the Leupold brand is cheapened and diminished by these off shore products. Products that don't meet Leupold specs are never sold. But the economic health of the company requires growth and diversification and the Beaverton plant is running at full capacity."

As far as I'm concerned, you show me someone who has repeated problems with their scopes and I will show you someone with mounting issues. I will continue to believe Leupold offers a great scope for the price and will continue to use, sell and promote them whenever I can.

Shawn

Hired Gun,

Good post.

I have written about the same mounting issues for a while now, but a lot of people just don't get it. In fact the head tech guy for a custom rifle firm once complained to me about so many Leupolds being "bad out of the box." It turned out he was cranking down on the ring screws as if tightening lug nuts. (Luckily, he doesn't work there anymore.)

I would also like to respond to an earlier post that stated Leupold makes "mid-priced" scopes. This is only partially true. Leupold makes low-priced scopes, mid-priced scopes and high-priced scopes.

One of my recent scope tests has been of a 30mm-tube Leupold VX-7 2.5-10x, which retails at around $1000 and is designed to compete with European scopes in the same price range. It tested perfectly in every one of my trials, inclouding adjustments. The optics rank right in there with top-notch Euros. The optics test, by the way, was not done by just looking through the scope, but by using an optics chart after dark with a controlled light source.

I have had the VX-7 on a .375 H&H since I got it, and have mostly been firing top-velocity 300-grain loads. It hasn't shown the slightest bit of distress, and I've put a lot of rounds through the rifle.

Then again, this is a sample of one.

You haven't looked very hard. It's been discussed numerous times here and in other forums. Dave Petzal said (FWIW) that the Elite was one of the toughest scopes he'd ever seen.

this is a great post. If you use Talley LW rings and the supplied small allen wrench can you assume that your not applying too much torque? Then why are not the Leupold rings and bases made in accordance to the fact that the erector assembly is located in the exact place that they are??

JimmyP..

Any other 2 pc sporting scope mount I am aware of for bolt rifles putt the rear ring pretty much in the same place on any given rifle. It's not like it is some deep dark conspiracy by Leupold. Also the rear gimbal design has been used by them for over 20 years now. Other scope makers also use it.

There are a lot of interellated factors of exactly where the rear ring winds up getting placed along the scope tube.

length of the recover,
length of the rear scope bell assmebly aft of thr main tube
Scope eye relief
stock length
action length
lenght of the rear reciever bright
placement of mout screws on that rear bridge.

The various combinations of interelating factors are as unique as the shooters are who own each gun.

Unless you are using a full length Picatinny style rail with multiple ring mounting slots, you may not have much choice where that rear ring will be placed along the scope tube. Even then, there would be limitations.

And that is a problem, now isn't it?

Compared to Leup, they're heavier and longer.

Your going to be really pizzed when that $$$$ AV fails.....

Been there, done that.

Lefty C

And that is a problem, now isn't it? [/quote}


It might be, if you want to put that rear ring right over the ejection port of the rifle.

A solid rail could be a big problem not only in terms of case ejection but access to the loading port. It depends on the rifle design and exactly where the user wants the scope mounted.

And Elite 4200's are less expensive and have a better warranty, as well as arguably being stronger and clearer.

I just got off the phone with a Leupold Tech. I asked him if is was possible that I mounted my scope in the wrong place or over tightened the screws.

He said it was possible and this is the solution to the problem he gave me.

"Avoid mounting the rings over the dimple on the scope. This dimple is the stud for the erector spring."

"When tightening your screws down, tighten them evenly with an even gap on both sides to 28" lbs".

"I then said I don't have a way of measuring to 28" lbs. The tech then told me that when I tighten the screws down, tighten till you feel a slight spring on your torx wrench, then it is tight enough".

A very simple solution, just wish Leupold made it more clear on their mounting instructions.

28 inches pounds is too much IMHO and experience. I bet if you call them again and speak to a different tech, that he will give you a different torque spec. I called them 3 times one day and got 3 different tech's and they gave me 3 different torque settings.

I should have taken that bet.

I just called them back two more times and talked with three different techs.

They all said the same thing 28" lbs for the screws.

You lose.

Here's their number why don't you call them? 800-538-7653 ext 9.

Leupold has published their "Recommended Torque Values" for some time. It comes with your mounting instructions and is the same info the tech reads off on the phone:

Commercial LEU Maximum Recommended Torque Values:

6-48 Base Screws - 22 in/lbs
8-40 Base Screws - 28 in/lbs
8-40 Ring Screws - 28 in/lbs
STD Windage Screws - 45 in/lbs
Ringmount Keeper Screws - 45 in/lbs
PRW Keeper Screws - 22 in/lbs

Best:)

This is another reason why it is difficult for someone to sell a used high dollar scope in a limited market through the classifieds at a near new asking price. A person in the market for such a scope is more than likely willing to pay a few dollars more to get a new scope sealed in the box to guarantee that the previous owner did not improperly install the scope and wrench it out of wack. Buyers tend to gamble on an unknown scope only when the price is marked down well below cost.

I'm starting to think that very few actually know how to properly mount a scope:(

Best:)

and there you have it, probably could have saved 500 million emails regards Leupold failures..

Those words of John Barnes "farmer tight" pops into mind.

Jim62 thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge but again I have been around a rifle or two as well.

Well Jimmy P.

I did not post here to help you at all.

I responded to provide a little bit of a truthful counterpoint to your post about the rear ring placment somehow being all Leupold's fault on any given rifle scope combo..

If you have "been around a rifle or two" it sure has not improved your intellect much.

jim62 reminds me of another x-spert azz-hat we used to have here some years back. Rude self absorbed know it all's.

He's full of crap with no content.

I'm going to flush him down the ignore.

That's fine... SU35.

Now you and old JimmyP can go back to sucking each other's Charizos .

You seem to do a lot of that around here.

*** You are ignoring this user ***

You're to late crap-head.

Looking in the mirror again?

*** You are ignoring this user ***


LOL,

Glad you posted MD to add your considerable credibilty to this subject. I'll also take the opportunity to add that D'Arcy Echols, arguably one of the finest gunmakers anywhere, also recommeds Leupolds for this Big Bores because of their durability. So clearly it's not about the name, just great value for one tough scope. jorge

There was a interesting quote from Mr. Echols recently... shoulda bookmarked it, dang it... anyway it was to the effect that he/they hate all scopes equally.

Guys,
15 pages of a lot of scope talk and a large percentage of it BS. We have beat this horse to death. Where it's made, how many fail, scope mounting issues, tracking issues, and on and on. A Leupold employee cleared it all up for us on page 13. Torque specs cleared up and published in every set of instructions included with every scope also cleared up for those that don't take the time to read the instructions.
600 Americans working at the Beaverton facility at good paying jobs manufacturing a good quality product and selling tens of thousands of them annually. I think we should support them not try and tear them down.
Like i have mentioned in previous posts tell me how many scopes Leupold has built and how many have actually failed not including the ones that were used to turn the front ring into the base, the ones that the rings were torqued too tight on, the ones installed on rifles drilled and tapped off center that are sprung before they are ever used and that run out of windage adjustment before they zero.
My bet is the return for repair and warranty where the problem is actually a manufacturing defect is so low the percentage so small that it probably won't compute. Everyone in business strives for a perfect product and for every customer to be satisfied but in our world that is an impossible feat.
No one does it in the optics business nor do they do it in my business or any other. Knowing that Leupold is making scopes and working at 100% of their manufacturing capacity should tell us something. It tells me there are a whole lot more customers tickled with the Leupold product than those that are not.
Citing a suspected or alleged failure is one thing bashing the product and/or calling each other names is something entirely different. My Bible verse of the day today is Psalms 19 V:14.

Dave

Jim what are you 62 years old? You must have led a long and bitter life or just recently gone through a bad divorce or something. I cannot possibly think of why anyone could come across in the course of a normal conversation as antagonistic as you are without just cause. Or perhaps you fancy yourself a bully? Well keep up the angry attacking postings in regards to any opinion that is contrary to what you accept as truth and I am sure you will go the same way that oldman1942 did.

Well..JimmyP let me ask you the same question..

What the [bleep] is YOUR problem???

I merely ANSWERED your post about the ring placement with FACTS.

I did not denegrate you or make fun of you, just disagreed with your take on the situation about the ring placement.

That's all.

YOU on the other hand respond with the snide comment about "having been around a rifle or two"..

Maybe you should take your own advice and stop acting like such an azzhole yourself.

I'll start by humming a few bars............


Sound card needed...


Leupold by ya my Lord.....Leupold by ya......

Dave,

Great post. Especially that first paragraph.

Me and Jim62 had a go around a while back but have since had very cordial dealings and he is a very knowledgable and skilled gun enthusiast who is quite willing to help those who ask.

jim62 & SU35,

Obviously the two of you are unable to agree to disagree. Rather than calling each other names on the threads please do it by PMs.

sincerely, idahoguy101

Politics, religion, and the Optics forum........

Part of the reason Echols & Co. hates all scopes (well, not all, but most) is that his customers keep insisting on putting high-power variables on all their rifles, no matter what they're chambered for. "Really high-powered" means any scope that needs parallax adjustment--yet another moving part that can go sproing under stress.

Obviously, this is pretty much nuts on a rifle meant for shooting big animals at moderate ranges. But many people want to shoot those 1/2" groups even with a .375 H&H, but some even demand it from bigger rifles. (As D'Arcy once said during one of our fairly frequent phone conversations about scopes, "Just how -------- small are these elephants they're shooting these days?")

A higher-powered, parallax adjustable scope tends to work fine on a hard-kicking rifle IF it's a true tactical scope, but not so good if it's a lightweight scope, no matter who makes it.

By the way, D'Arcy firmly agrees with me that fixed-powers are tougher in lightweight scopes, one reason among many that I have been converting my harder-kicking rifles to fixed powers over the past few years. But he has made very little headway with his customers in that directions, partly because most of them believe that any expensive variable is super-tough.

All of this is why he doesn't mount the scopes customers buy anymore--until the final shipping when he sends the whole package off. Instead he tests the rifles with his scopes, which as I recall are a 3x Leupld for the really big rifles and a 16x Leupold Mark 4 for the smaller, longer-range rifles. Or at least they were the last time we talked about it.

Idaho,
As much as I appreciated Jim62's comment about my post my advice would be the same as yours to anyone posting in any thread on the Campfire. Every time I look here for load info or new and neat gun and reloading or fishing advice someone turns a thread or two into a weiner measuring contest and/or there are those (and we know who they are) who dominate the forum in practically all categories who seem to never be wrong about any topic.
The optics forum and ask the gunwriters are the favorites for the name calling and product, political or personal bashing. I have noticed in the past few days that Rick is injecting some new topics for discussion and they are welcome. On the CAmpfire there for everyone to see are a few posting regularly and dominating the discussions and members are staying off the forum because of its current content.
I certainly feel that way sometime. There are a ton of good posters on this forum that post useful info about topics that interest us all and a ton of guys and gals that have a lot of experiences that I would like to read about but having to sift through all the BS to get to the good is getting tougher.
If everyone would just relax and have fun it would help alot. The elementary behavior resulting in bomb throwing and name calling is ridiculous and it would be nice if it stopped.
Every weekend some racer threatens a promoter and says they are never coming back when they are the product of a rule or procedural enforcement. Those are the most famous words in racing. The driver and his crew are the first through the pit gate the following weekend. My point is enforce some rules of standard etiquette and behavior and things will straighten up quick.
If someone thinks they are right all the time then by all means run for office. That way there is a good chrony reading of how right you really are.

Dave

Jeff I hate all scopes not really but you get my point!

A good buddy who posts here once said(and I agree!)that when he hunts, he never worries about having enough gun,or the right caliber...or bullet.The only thing on his mind is...."Is this [bleep]' rifle still sighted in.....????"

Ok guys, let me qualify....

Bushnell Elites are fine scopes for the price--but they are heavier, they don't have the eyebox, personally I like looking through a Leupy a lot better than the Bushnell..........and their cost isn't much different from a VX-II last time I looked.

It's just that some guys want to compare a $300 Leupold to a $2000 European scope, and for that kind of price (and weight) I figure the scope should at least be able to pack out the elk for you too...........


Casey

I've had those same reservations about buying a used scope.......


Casey

No, he's not as knowledgeable as you may think and so far the only skill he has shown is how to be a total azz.

The man is an obnoxious moron, an old crank who hates life and anyone who dis-agrees with him.

Jim there you go again, flying off the handle if someone does not agree with you. I made no snide remark only that I have owned a rifle or two. In addition one might think that some simple fabrication modification could place a scope ring a bit further forward. You on the other hand are building quite a reputation here as a hot head that fly's off the handle at folks that don't see things quite the way that you do. Just keep doing what your doing and perhaps after awhile we will just have to learn to live without the benefit of your keen firearms wisdom.

There I fixed it for you LOL.

Nah, this is mild, you should spend some time on the Politics & Boobs Campfire page......





He is?.......


This place ain't moderated....well, not much. We like it that way. If anything, it was a bit edgier when Stick and the Alaska crew were around..........


Casey

I'm loving it........



Casey

SU35..

Nasqam only speaks of what he KNOWS from first hand experience.

You on the other hand, bloviate about things of which you are totally clueless..

Which apparently is quite a bit.

SU, you and I have read the same things here writtten by Jim62. I believe that Jim is very knowledgeable about several subjects, particularly gunsmithing and stockmaking.
If you think Jim is unskilled then it is clear that you have never seen his exquisite stockwork. He is a true artisan in Walnut.

You know, I will say this about turret-twisting: it removes much if not all of that superstitious "don't touch it, it's zeroed" feeling.

I mean when you've jacked the "zero" of a scope to hell and back a few hundred times, and it keeps coming back to zero, after a while you start to trust the phookin' thing. Rightly or wrongly.

Shot a return-to-zero test with the Swaro AV today. 4 shots, with oodles and scads of elevation turret-twistin' in between. It did great. This on the kimber.

Having a range on the land is GREAT!! Loving it.

Nope, not flying off the handle..

I just take a snide, smart assed insult for what it is. Make of it what you will, I don't care. Your opinion of me really is something I could care less about.

If you want to appologize for accidentally offending me, then I would be glad to recprocate. Otherwise, stow the backpeddling.

I'm going bear hunting tonight with a rifle that wears a Leupold scope. Damn, now I'm going to be worried.... (insert middle finger smilie)

No Jim I have nothing to apolgize for, on the other hand I hope you stay on the same track as we will have to live without your wisdom after a bit. Its my hope that you continue your angry retoric attacking people for any slight difference in opinion. I will add that I do however feel sorry for you.

Well, "JimmyP" after reading the "intellect" in your posts here..

I feel sorry for you, too.

I truly mean that.

keep up the good work Jim62!

Same to you "JimmyP"..!!!!!!!!!!

Have a nice drive......

Oh I will. Do you think I should aim for the right or left ass cheek?

Why don't you children go do like Obama says and lets go have
a beer together and be friends.

Now if that doesn't wake you up, nothing will !!!

Jeff, looks like so far so good....!

Jeff....uhh..sorry...not me!

If I were gonna get a scope for turret twisting there are exactly two that I would trust for that purpose....and neither one is mentioned here...you should sit in on some bull sessions at my club regarding turret reliability among the F class and BR shooters....only thing I will say is....there are a lot of Nightforce scopes showing up where there used to be other stuff......

What scope are you looking for?



Scott

I'm looking for a Vortex Razor spotter with straight eyepiece.......got one? If not, when?

I was always a hold over shooter and for hunting it worked fine. I wanted something a little more precise, so I looked at scopes with yardage formats but they confused my eye terribly. Last year, I got a Nikon Monarch X 2.5x10x44mm and sent the info in to Kenton and had an elevation turret made for the load I shoot.

I was a little nervous about repeatability, but I can say that the scope has tracked beautifully and I have not had one issue, so far. I've used it out to 600 and come back to 100 and then run back out to 400 many times and it has been on the money. It still makes me a little nervous, but I do trust it now.

JM

RaceTire,

As I've said "if only I were King things would be different!"... But that isn't gonna happen.

I was only asking the two individuals to take their fight elsewhere. Our host can edit them out if he wants too. I just wanted the two knuckleheads to take to stop bothering the rest of us.

Thank you for your response and examples. Really... I do appreciate good advice. Sometimes it just takes me a while.

idahoguy101

Hey John! Nice to see you back. I was worried you'd caught the gay or something!

A Nikon on a Browning... oy.... don't let the wrong crowd get wind of that; you'll never hear the end of it! Big grin.

Nice to hear about the Nikon doing well in that regard. Conquests are stellar in terms of tracking- at least the half-dozen I've messed with are. Not as stellar as what Bob mentions (presumably) but stellar enough for the purpose of hitting a 10" target out to xxx yards.

To at least somewhat stay on topic this is one major area where Leup lost me. Tracking. I know it's not relevant for many or most shooters, and I know some Leups track great; I have a couple of them. But the damn things are capable of some real squirreliness, too.

I like Nightforce optics, but my Leupold cost me less than $500. How much is a Nightforce? Is that really a fair comparison?

And like I said before, there are other, better scopes out there. Some more money, some less. But this time the Leupold had all the features I wanted when others didn't, at a price I wanted. Next time might buy something else.

Can you get Leupold at Harbor Freight yet?

Ouch! Thats low.

Good info.

Thanks for posting it.

JM

I called again this morning about this and another Tech told me that this only applies to scopes 30 years and older.

Where is this dimple? Don't remember noticing one, and I don't think it's visible on the two Leups I still have..... which means (gasp!) I've mounted on top of the dreaded Dimple of Doom!