I mean, if the Nikon SE is practically the "ultimate" that all these high-end roof prisms are being compared to, why would someone spend 3-4X the cost in order to get equal performance?
Just wondering....

Personally, I've tried the SEs and though they were quite nice, I didn't find them overly remarkable. I thought and still think that the little 6x30 Yosemites were VERY close to them, the 6.5x32 IF Minox their better, and the 8x30 SLC, and both the 8x32 and 8x42 Ultravids easily superior.

Others disagree.

If I had a pair of SEs, I doubt I'd "upgrade", but I'd not go out of my way to grab a pair if anything in the class were already in house.

Dads getting a pair of Yo's tonight when he opens up his package Sean...

Hopefully he won't remember the view when he looked through my 6.5x32's last year...grin...

Have a Merry Christmas...

The SE's aren't waterproof either. This is a deal killer for me anyway.

Besides the waterproofing concern, there is the fact that they are a porro design and not the usually tougher roof prism design. They are also a bit larger. E

Are you certain this is the case (roof prism tougher)? I was under the impression the opposite was true.

Not only that, but the porros are cheaper for the same quality of performance. If youu get a chance compare some porros side by side with the roofs.

Why look for anything else?? Humans (particularly Americans ) are what some would call "perpetually unsatisfied" where 'enough is NEVER enough'. There always has to be something better and price be damned. Or there's the argument that if it costs more than it's better. I've witnessed first hand this particular phenomenon. (Get's ugly sometimes.)

This is a really good question and consumers have obviously become infatuated with roof prism binoculars. Porro prisms have several advantages and one glaring disadvantage:

They have better depth perception than the comparable roofies

They have one less prism, light changes direction one less time so they are lighter and easier to make perfect than a comparable roofie.

The best feature, IMHO, is that they can be pretty much any size you want and still be made to work with normal human IP distances.

About 25% of the population cannot use the Swarovski 15x56 SLC because they don't get close enough to fit many eye spacings. With normal size glass, this isn't an issue.

The drawback is that they are, for some reason I don't understand, more difficult to make truly waterproof. I have seen the Super Es used in some pretty nasty weather and they were fine- just don't take well to submerging.

We have fallen in love with roofies and this has killed the porro prism R&D which really sucks!

My wife thinks the roofies look funny. I just want the most for the money I spend so I use porros most of the time. I do have a really nice 3X56 Minox which is a roof prism, though. Easy for me to use all day for rock chuck hunting.

Might be the difference between internal focus (roof) and external focus (porro).

I mean, if the Nikon SE is practically the "ultimate" that all these high-end roof prisms are being compared to, why would someone spend 3-4X the cost in order to get equal performance?
Just wondering....

After using the Nikon Se 8x32 and 10x42 models for many years,along with many other binos, rain and shine, my answer is..... why indeed?

porro

Yes because the prisms are mounted more solidly and, therefore don't get knocked out alginment as easily. There are some exceptions I've been told. The open bridge design of the Swaro EL's are not as tough simply because there isn't that much there to support the barrels. E

+1

Correct.
And they don't 'look like you spend 2k on euro alphas'

Another exception the other way is Fujinon's FMTR-SX model. A very solid and 100% waterproof porro binocular. I have one , I also have or had Leica,Zeiss and Swarovski roof's and I would say the most solid binocular is the Fujinon.

I have owned Swarovski and Leica high end roofs and my SE's made me sell them. There is something about the 3D effect that I get with the SE's that makes it hard to use anything else. The view of an animal through roofs looks like a flat 2 dimensional picture to me. With the SE's the animal seems to "jump" out at me, it really is a spectacular view. That said there is plenty not to like. The lack of being waterproof as others have mentioned. Bulkier and much harder to hold with elbows in and braced than a comparable roof, although it can be done. The focus wheel gets stiffer the colder it gets. And they can be a little finicky on eye placement to avoid blackouts. However for me the view through the SE's makes all these shortcomings worth dealing with.

practically, I much prefer roof binocualrs for hunting than a non waterproof porro. That kills the deal

Had a pair of the older Nikon Superior E's in 7X35. Beautiful view but the end caps were plastic and as noted they were not water proofed at all. Fine for birding in good weather but not rough and ready hunting use.

Had several different pairs of Swarovski SL series, those were the Swaro porros and they were great. Pretty weird looking and kind of heavy but great porros.

Burris (probably actually Pentax) made a Fullfield porro model in the 90's that was waterproof and armored. The 7X35 model was an excellent buy in a good, really useful hunting binocular for just over $200. I carried one of those for a couple of years and wish I still had it. The 10X50 version of the same model didn't have good enough glass to support that much power, but the 7X35's were great.

Got a set of Swaro Traditional 6X30's that are supposed to be waterproof and they go with me everywhere. Have a Leica 8X40 and an 8X32 but they are heavier and the view from the Swaro is wider with huge depth of focus.

Swaro Military models (if they still make them) are an excellent buy in a waterproof, armored porro.

With phase coating roofs will give you resolution as good as porros in a smaller package (not that much smaller, but still smaller) but I still prefer porros.

I've used even some really cheap porros quite a bit in rain and snow, and never had them leak internally in any way.

Even a cheap Nikon Action 7x35 opens a lot of eyes, compared to many roofs, at a fraction of the cost.

Really not a valid argument anymore-5 years ago yes but not now.

The best roofs have surpassed the E series.

THe Zeiss FL with the abbe konig prisms is brighter and sharper in its sweet spot.

The Swarovision exceeds the view of the E and is probibly just as bright.

The new SLC HD is probibly better (yet to test it).

My Leica trinovid BN 10x50 I used to have was a better 10x to my eyes than the SE.

All binos listed are waterproof and probibly more durable than the SE.

Not to put the SE down- it can't be beat for the price.

Jim:
You are right, the premium Nikon porros are very good. The 7x35 you had was the original Nikon E, the Birdwatcher. The Nikon SE series, was and is still available in the 8x32, 10x42 and 12x50. They are still being made, but in small quantities,
and available at some of the internet merchants.

These are fully rubber armored, well aclaimed as having optics to match anything available, even today. Great value and a good choice for those who want the very best.

I have had all of the SE's and the 8x32 SE is the one binocular that I own, that I will always keep.

Doug at Cameraland NY, our sponsor here, has a sleeper in his Minox sale right now - the Minox BD10X44BP at $199, original MSRP $599! I am a fan or porro binoculars for all the reasons seen in this thread and in other places - and for what my eyes tell me. I bought the 8X and 10X Minox BP's from Doug back when they were a lot more money - and if I did not still have them I'd be buying at least one more of the BD10X44BP...

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/minox.pl?page=62151

Friends bought the BP at Doug's original discontinued price - $279 - as did I - and are more than pleased with their performance.

Shoot - I may just call Doug right now...before they are all gone.

BTW - the BP's are so good that I sold my Leica 10X42 Trinovids and do not miss them.

Check them out - all of the advantages of roof other than physical size.

Well, here is what happened to me. I bought some 8X30 slc neu's thinking they would be the 'stuff'. I already had a set of ProMaster Elite ED 8X42 for half the price, but wanted the 'swarovski' experience. My wife (who has no clue about name brand) told me I like 'these' better (holding my promasters). I then took them to a buddy's deer camp and a couple folks looked thru both. Swaro first and all were like 'ahh' nice view. They then picked up my 'cheap' pair and said 'what the $##@!' these have a much clearer, sharper and better contrast of view......'where did you get these?'. While the Promaster's weigh 7 ozs more and a little more bulky, the SLC's definitely not worth the price. Promaster also has a lifetime warranty.......tough to beat.

I would think the lack of full waterproofing would be a deal killer for those that are only going to buy one good pair binoculars. For me I own both a super fine 8x42 Leica Ultravid along with an 8x32 SE and a 10x42SE. I have all three lined up on a table in my living room. We have lots of wildlife right outside our window, deer, elk, turkeys, bald eagles feeding on a dead elk calf the other days, plus great scenery, so I use them all a lot.

The 8x32SEs are my favorite by far. I love the ergonomics with my fairly small hands, and the view is superb. I live in Montana where hunting in the rain is rare, usually it's snow or clear, so the 8x32SEs get the go 80% of the time, if the weather looks iffy, I leave them in the truck and carry the Ultravids.

John

To clairify, my SE and my Ultravid are pretty equal optically, I prefer both to the new Swarovision and Zeiss FL, but those kind of comparisons are personal. Others may like the edge to edge sharpness of the Swaro and not notice the rolling ball effect.

Where I find the SE perfect is the fit in the hand and overall balance of optical features, bright, sharp, contrasty, neutral color and of course that 3D porro view. Some people have blackouts with them. To the original question; if you can live without total waterproofing and don't suffer from blackouts, I believe that for $400-$500.00 you will have all or 98% the optics of any $2,000.00 bino around.

John

waterproof means they can be submerged.
Water resistant means they can be in the shower.

Has anyone actually seen a pair of water resistant binos get water in them while using them? I would rather have waterproof. But it does not seem rational that would be a deal breaker.

Is it time for a dumb queston yet? I think so.

If one uses the 8X32 SE will he be able to resolve the same detail he might with say a 10X Pentax?

A Pentax SP in 8x43 or 10x43 will show you everything the SE will for big game hunting. I have the SP 10x43 and it's great, the Pentax ED even better, and on par with the best of the best.

Why take a chance at the "moment of truth"? Not me.

You might be right, JGRaider. I am just a bit skeptical this is relevant variable. Lots of stories of water resistant porros working in extreme conditions. Where are the failures?

I used my non-waterproof Leitz Trinovid 7x35s for many years in all kinds of weather without any issues whatsoever, though I never dunked them in a stream or lake. I guess the question is, is the dunkability issue worth an extra $1,000 to $1,500.00?

Of course you could buy a pair of Zen Ray EDIIs and have great optics in a waterproof package for less than the cost of a pair of SEs.

John

I talked to Doug today about a pair of basically truck binos, 10x as my hunting binos are either 7x42 zeiss fl's or 6.5x32 minos if's. I was seriously considering the vortex 10x32's that are on close out but also asked about the 10x44bp minox. Doug had no problem saying the minox was the pait to buy, so I did. I will report when I get them.

I, too, am a bit skeptical about how much "waterproofness" is really necessary.
If I ever get a pair of the Nikon SE's, I might just video myself jumping into the swimming pool with them to see if they can make the cut. I'll post it here for all to see, regardless of the outcome.

+1

Make mine SE's in 6x, or 7x and I'll buy the porro's.
Just because......