From what I have seen and read, it seems that a slight gain in optical quality comes at great cost, what if any other factors "sold" you on Leica, Zeiss, or Swaro.? I ask because I'm considering such a purchase and would like to know what others believe the extra money is buying.

IMO the advantages are unsurpassed pure optical performance, unsurpassed build quality, and in the case of the Swaro SLC HD I have, unsurpassed customer service and peace of mind.

Disadvantages IMO: High cost not worth the increase in performance. If you can't find game with a Leupold Gold Ring HD (currently own this and it is fantastic), Zen ED2, Bushnell Elite, Pentax SP or ED, Meopta Cabelas Euro, Steiner Preregrine, or a Nikon EDG it's your fault, not the bino.

It usually boils down to ergonomics for me. The SLC HD has the best combination of optics, ergos, and CS/Warranty of anything I've ever seen. It's the greatest bino I've ever owned or looked through. That being said, I bought my Gold Ring HD's for $599 and they show me everything the SLC HD does. They are extremely well built, Leupy CS is legendary as well, and the glass is fantastic.

Having looked through all those I listed, it would be a tough sale for me to spend the extra $$ on a $2000+ alpha bino. I bought my SLC HD new for $1470 so that helped some. The mid priced stuff is really, really good nowadays.

JG,

Very good summation!

I love top-notch binoculars, and there is a difference between the top glass and the lower-priced stuff. But the difference is very, very small anymore, and I wouldn't even limit the "alpha" rating to Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss anymore.

Generally I feel the extra money is buying at the extremes of design and use. You might be looking for a wider FOV in comparable Xs, crisper sense of focus or maybe lighter weight.

I got a pair of Leica 8x20 ultravids that just tickle me pink every time I carry and use them. I put my hands on a lot of very compact bins before making the purchase and couldn't be happier using them well towards the ends of civil twilight. They are light (8oz), unbelievably compact and I like the diopter setting the best of anything I touched, in addition to the focus knob access (significant differences in this class). A snazzy leather case that looks good next to the door hanging so I can grab and go. All improvements on the well beaten and used Steiner Merlin 10x26s they're supplanting.

'Finance officer' has approved a second pair - in a different finish - if the opportunity comes up (she wants the silverlines I got, and feels I should get the rubber armored to abuse) and is a strong approval rating in this house.

I believe there are two classes of purchases. The one I'll use and beat the hll out of OR the one I'll use the rest of my life. Commitment depends on product life.

I bought a pair of Zeiss Victory T FL bins 5 years ago. I had recently bought a Conquest scope, & was thrilled with it. I found a demo pair of bins at 1/3 off list price, and thought it was a great deal. I had also booked an elk hunt, and I justified that if I was spending considerable bucks on the hunt, I should go ahead & get commensurate glass.

At the time, there weren't nearly as many challengers to Alpha glass. There wasn't much buzz about mid-level offerings from Minox or Vortex, and the Promaster/Zenray/Theron phenomenon hadn't happened yet. So if I were to do it all over again, I don't know that I'd make the same choice today.

I absolutely LOVE them, but I do use them in situations where they can really show their advantage over other glass. Certainly, if I weren't spending $ and vacation time on Western big game hunts, I personally wouldn't go all the way up to alpha glass.

FC

Thanks, I have Pentax DCF WP 8X42s picked up a few years ago after reading JB's Optics For The Hunter. Paid a little over $200 on clearance. I like 'em fine a friend has same but in the SP's I have been hard pressed to see the difference. So maybe I should just stand pat and spend the coin on a hunt.

FC

Thanks those Zeiss are the one's I have been looking at.

I haven't yet met anyone who's looked through them who liked their own bins better. Still, I wouldn't have bought them at full price, and now they're $500 or $600 more. However, there have been several pairs of alphas in the classifieds here at sub-$1,000 prices over the past several months.

If I were doing it all over again, I'd have to look through some different bins to see where my eyes quit seeing an improvement.

FC

I'm keeping an eye on the classifieds. I'm dyed in the wool for 8x42 and most seem to be 10X or 8X30.

It's never a bad thing to go on more hunts.

I have a great friend who's never been able to see any difference between his VXI scopes and ANY scopes that cost more. He kills lots of critters, has a whale of a good time doing so, and spends less than I do. And yes, I do kind of envy him.

a birder might tell you that a nikon se or a swift 820 audubon is an alpha binoculer...not a birder myself, but after giving those two a shot, i replaced my "big three" roofs

Because the neighbor lady across the street is smoking azz hot and my Tasco's kept fogging up!...

amen.....

For me it has always been the WOW! factor....when I started hunting and taking it seriously in my late teens,there were not the choices that provided that effect that there are today.

Back then, the hardcore hunters I knew used Leitz Trinovids,B&L,and when they came out, the Zeiss Classic...I bought a 10x40 Classic and used them everywhere for 18 years..They cost me $750 and when I sold them for $500 18 years later, I figured I had rented them for $250 bucks, for 18 years...I had looked through the same bins with the new Phase corrected coatings....and some Swaro Porro Prisms that were a notch above the old Zeiss.

Things have changed today of course,and it's harder to tell the difference between all these bins.....but I don't have the time, money, or opportunity to test a bunch of bins,so tend to own no more than two at a time......so they are both top tier (Swaro and Leica),and leave it at that.

But today these are really getting expensive and I don't want to chase tiny, incremental optical improvements I can barely see.....it gets confusing and expensive.

Today I would look very hard at a top end Minox if I were in the market.

My viewing with them is limited, but I have been impressed with anything Minox turns out.

Mike,

I own a couple of "alpha's" but I bought both pair as-new at a discount. While I love both the Leica and Swaro EL, the glass from some of the other makers is getting to the point where it's so close that it's hard to justify the sky-rocketing prices of the big three any longer.

Minox, Meopta, ZenRay, ProMaster, Vortex (likely missing one or two) all have a product or two that will hang (at one level or another) with the big three. That said, I simply have not run across a bino that works for me (both in glass quality and ergo's) like the Swaro EL. Window pane POP that seems to fit my hand and face to perfection.

I'd not buy any of them without being able to compare a bunch of them side-by-side - they need to work for you. Give Doug at Cameraland a buzz to discuss how you might be able to spend some quality time with several of them.

Bob,

The top-end Minox binoculars now have near-alpha prices....

MD I'd like to know what your pick of the litter is currently. Sorta like what you thought about the Pentax DCF WP 15 years or so ago.

I'd be interested, too, especially since my quest may turn from finding a pair of compacts to supplement my 10-year-old Pentaxes, to finding a replacement since they aren't turning up in a search of the house!

Still using my Nikon 8X32 LX Refurbs from Doug. They were great then and still are now. The big 3 might (big might) control flare just a tad better, but the view from the Nikon is good as any I have ever tried.

I'm pretty much now in the camp with those that believe that anything much over $1000 is "sort of" wasting my money.
That doesn't mean I'm going to sell my Leicas, however. They are as tough as anything ever built for one. That means alot to a guy that knocks his rifles and binoculars around in tough country.
The other is that the ones I have are heavy. Really too heavy for all day wear around the neck while spending the day going either up or down in the mountains. But when it comes to glassing for hours at a time, that weight means alot more than tiny improvements in image quality.
BTW, compared to testing scopes, which I firmly believe need to be hunted for a few years to properly evaluate, binoculars can be evaluated rather easily. For one, guys like Doug at Cameraland will sell you one with a full money back guarantee if you want to try it out. Send it back in original condition in seven days and you get a full refund. Cabela's will do the same thing.
The only thing you can't get a good feel for is how well it will hold up with lots of service. Still, this is alot easier than evaluating scopes.
What it boils down to is that I am not planning to buy another Leica if I decide I must have a 10X40 binocular. It's going to be one of the $1000 or less class of heavy binoculars like the Leupold GR or the Meopta. E

McKinneyMike,

The binocular market changes so fast now that it's hard to pick a this-instant winner, but I have become very fond of the top Zen-Ray and Hawke binoculars in the past couple of years. There are others made by the same factory (China) that would also have to be rated in the same class as well, but I know that those two are extremely good optically, and I've also used both considerably in the field with no mechanical problems. That they retail under $400 is simply astounding.

I use leica geovids because they are one of the few units with a range finding binocular. bushnell has a unit, but I don't think the glass is near as good, zeiss has another unit but the eye relief is just a tad short for me on the 10x unit and they are a bit more bulky.

I personally don't see why any hunters are spending big money on alphas when you can get geovids for a similar price. yeah the glass might be not quite as good as the standard units, but having that powerful rangefinder under your finger is more than worth a few trade offs. if you are using your binocs for glassing distant animals, you also NEED a rangefinder, geovids are my choice.

as a pure binocular to my eyes the 8.5x42 el's are the best there is followed by the latest zeiss offering. oh yeah and I like being snobbish with my german glass, nothing wrong with that when it offers a real advantage.

I just sold my Geovids because I got sick of the range finder button being on the wrong side. When comparing them(non HD) to my 8x43 Razor HD's the Razor is better glass. I do kind of miss the all in one unit but the separate range finder is more practical to me for my use.

JB: Yeah I recently noticed that, too

Hard to stay ahead of this stuff......

I have the new Minox 8.5x56 and can't tell the difference from my Zen-Ray ED's. That being said I have macular degeneration too so real high end glass is wasted on me.
My PH (last year) tried the Zen-Ray next to him alpha Leicas and liked the Zen-Ray better.

Not surprised at all. When I put my Zen ED2 up against my buddy's Swaro EL I can tell a slight difference if I look long and hard enough.

How do Zen Rays rate as far as durabilty is concerned?

here's some sacrilege for you...went into a pawn shop about two years ago and found a swaro 8.5x42 el for a bargain price and scooped it up, happy as a clam...got home and looked up the block and was delighted with the view ! went in the house and grabbed my swift 820 audubon 8.5 x44 for the old side by side...sharpness/focus equal,brightness swift, field of view swift, overall view swift...potential for quick turn around swaro..no brainer, the swaro was listed and sold with in 2 hrs of the purchase ! (probably doesnt count cause its a porro, right ?)

For me, it was that my Swaro's spanked everything I'd looked through.

That was 8-9 years ago; I'd expect it to be a tougher call if I was buying today.

That's the million dollar question..

Elk:
I do agree with you about the quality of some porros that are out there as I own several.
I do want you to think about how many optics that are being used, and hunted with, under many conditions. Is the Swift waterproof? How about the Swift warranty, do you have any?

For many watching, one big reason many users like the Alphas, is for the best in optics, great warranty and knowing they will be taken care of.
Swift, you are on your own, "Swarovski will take care of you".

Farmboy,to be honest, cant say that i know if the swifts are waterproof or if they have a warranty (shame on me obviously)..i just know, so far out of maybe 200 different bino's i have tried out in search of the elusive perfect bino, this particular one might have the best view overall that i have used, even more pleasing to me then the nikon se which pretty much established the standard for bino's and the reason that roofs are phase coated/corrected to compete (my understanding anyway)..the only time i have ever used a warranty was on three pair of the older leupold IF's for colmination issues and once on sightron scope for a.o. issues and it was wonderfull to have the warranty, however you pay for the warranty up front in my opion and may be paying more for prestige and future replacement then actual optical quality...someone posed the question as to how the zenrays stand up...dont know: one of the few i havent tried out yet, but my quess would be 4,5,6 zenrays (not sure of pricing) will likely hold up as long (maybe longer ??) then one zeiss, swaro or leica ????

I have been in the glass buisness all my life, several years ago Asahi (the largest glass manufacturer in the world) was tied in with Pentax to supply their glass. as part of a promotion they offered us Pentax optic's at next to nothing prices. I thought I had gotten a great deal on the best bino's they made at the time.

That fall me and two of my friends went coyote hunting and were sitting on a stand and they both saw a coyote coming in from a long ways off. I could not see it and was starting to get frustrated. one of my friends handed me his Swaro 10x42 SLC's and I spotted it instantly.
Things look great in a sporting goods store from lesser glass but in real life the alpha glass is worth the money to me.

I have 18 scoped rifles in my gun safe's and I must admit that I have scrimped on the optic's on some of my lower end rifles, but with bino's you only need 1 or 2 at the most so buy THE VERY BEST and only cry once.

I had the opposite experience about 10 years ago. A friend came out from Virginia to hunt deer with me in Montana. One morning we were glassing and I spotted a bedded mule deer buck quite a ways away. My friend couldn't quite make it out, partly because the buck was next to a juniper tree.

But part of the problem was the fact that his Swarovski 10x42 SLC weren't quite as good as my Pentax 10x50 DPS WP. And that was proven when he took my Pentax and could then find the buck.

All binoculars have been making improvements every year for quite a while now. At that time Pentax was ahead versus some models of Swarovski. The next year things might have flip-flopped. But to claim that all "alpha" binoculars are vastly superior to anything else anymore is simply misleading.

the question is,IMO, what is the very best ?
if you are a bow hunter, a birder an astronomer a thicket hunter or a spot and stalker, the answer might very considerably..reality is, each individual has his own criteria. My advise is to buy used, not new and $400 dollar glass can be found at $200 and try to work your way into a few different sets and keep doing side by sides and keep 3, 4, 5 (?) different sets around and keep "upgrading", selling off the one or two that just stand out as being "not quite as good to your eyes" as the others... sooner or later, you will find out what is the best for you and you may discover that $1500 bino's dont do much more for you then a $300 set...

www.allbinos.com here you can find some interesting reviews of binoculars. A Zeiss, Swarovski or a Leica are of course a good choice , but other brands are very close and in some cases even better.

WOW !!!!!!!! John..........I know that you dont like me because I am honest and disagree with your bias viewpoints but to say that I am misleading is funny.
You try to lead people to make money for you and have an influence to make more money for you. and you call me misleading!!!!!!!!!!!! you are a P.O.F. that get's away with what he want's on this forum because it is all allowed and you have 19000 more post's

I don't like you or dislike you, and really don't particularly care whether most people on the Campfire agree or disagree with me.

I just try to report my findings, but also tend to call BS when somebody reports something extremely different from what I've seen, especially with an example of one.

That deer hunt took place in 2002, when the Pentax DCF WP's were making a big splash. I had the Pentax 10x50 AND a 10x42 SLC to test that year, and had a number of people do a "blind" test with the names of both binoculars taped over. EVERYBODY who did the test rated the Pentax either equal or better.

So I am having a hard time believing that somebody could see a moving coyote through a Swarovski SLC of that period, and not see it at all in a Pentax DCF WP of the same magnification.

Oh, and that's the same sort of test I do when getting any new binoculars. I'll line them up and have a few people over to look at a bunch of them as the sun goes down.

Or, if one particular binocular is really impressive, I'll take any opportunity to hand it to other people, along with an alpha binocular of the same magnification and objective size. Often I don't even cover up the names, and still a lot of people are startled when one of the newer, less-expensive binoculars performs so well compared to the $2000 brands. In some instances they even pick the lower-priced glass, because it looks better to their eyes.

Now, the SLC's were upgraded soon after that deer hunt, and now are noticeably better than they were then. In fact they're just about as good as glass gets.

But that is not the point. The point is that ALL binoculars continue to improve, and the gap between so-called alphas and the rest has shrunk considerably in the past decade. So yes, to continue to claim that there is vast difference between the "alphas" is simply misleading, especially with your example of one.

It is for sure. For me, two seasons of use and so far so good. I think Mule Deer loaned his pair to an Alaskan guide friend of his and last I heard they've done well for him up there in that weather for a couple years too, but I hate to speak for him. Maybe MD can give us an update if he sees your question. I'd be curious too. In all honesty, I don't see them as being quite as well built as my Gold Ring HD's but they've done well so far. I know people see things differently, but I am very, very impressed with everything about those GR's. There as well built as anything I've seen including a pair of Trinovids I had, and a SLCneu I had. Glass if fantastic IMO. I probably use my binocs about 100 days a year between hunting and scouting for aoudad, muleys and whitetails, antelope, and hogs, so I get to spend lots of time behind the GR, Zen, and SLC HD. I also get to look through all the glass the hunters bring to camp so I've been lucky to see lots of different glass. There's lots of good stuff for sure so personal preference plays a major role. Good luck with your search, and remember to have fun with it.

My guide friend didn't have any problems through a fall and a spring, guiding for at least two months each season. Haven't heard from him since, but suspect I would have if he'd had problems.

I have hunted my Hawke 10x43 hard for a couple of years now, often loaning it to companions who show up with lesser glass. It is still going fine.

The GR Leupolds are VERY good, and very tough. I brought one over for a PH friend of mine in Africa when I hunted there a couple of years ago, and he is still loving them. PH's may not hunt in the weather Alaskan guides do, but they hunt more days of the year, and their binoculars get bounced around a lot, and suffer in the dust.

Looks like Gold Rings have been discontinued. They didn't seem to be in production that long, any idea why they stopped making them? Any word if they are being replaced/upgraded?
Thanks for all the responses.

Here is a question, what do you guys consider "alpha glass"? Is it still "alpha glass" for example if it says "XYZ optics, Germany" But the product is actually made in China or Portugal? Keep in mind if it does not have the words "MADE IN" stamped or placed with a sticker or label don't assume it is made in the country it was shipped out from.
Does it have to actually be made in the country the company HQ is located to be Alpha glass or just over a certain price point? If so what is that price point?

I've had both ZEN ED and ED 2 and the Promaster ELX ED since they were first available for purchase. I've had no problems and that includes some purposeful "dunk 'em in the water trough for 5 minutes and let them hang on the fence overnight" tests, They were frozen solid in the morning and never failed. They are as well built as anything in their price range. The Promaster has been my main truck binocular (it's in there 24/7/365)for almost three years.

schmalts,

As a matter of fact, if it doesn't have the words "MADE IN..." then it wasn't. Some optics these days just list the country where the company is headquartered, other might say "From ...". Both are sure indicators that they aren't made there.

Many companies are engineering optics in-house and then subcontracting either many parts or the entire optic to some other company.

This has been going on for a while now, and one of the European firms that many would call at least a "sub-alpha" started getting it's binoculars made in Japan maybe half-a-dozen years ago. Since then they haven't been marked "MADE IN..." but they still do have the name of the country where the company is headquartered, and no mention of Japan.

There are two really funny things about all this: People who buy them still brag about their Euro-glass, and when the change was made to Japan the optics got slightly but definitely BETTER.

Zeiss is having one of their spotting scopes (the new Dialyt Spotter) made in Japan to Zeiss specifications, but freely admits it. And it is VERY good, as you might expect, but costs considerably less than any other Zeiss spotter.

Minox has been engineering their stuff in Germany and getting it made elsewhere for many years, but the latest APO-HG binoculars are being made in Germany, and they are very good. Unfortunately they also cost almost as much as "alpha" glass.

dont think for yourself, just follow the guru JB and his minion's.......you will be happy.....or full of bleep.
check them out for yourself outside of the store or outside of paid bias here.

John, yes I know this, and why I brought it up. And BTW, even some of the Geman HQ companies are dealing heavy with China, and that doesnt make the quality bad at all, just a little confusing to many who buy it thinking they are getting something made elsewhere. So the question is still this, What is "alpha glass" to most here?

for the record, i REALLY like made in japan !
be it optics or rifles...dont know if the manufactures of either got nailed in the earthquake and aftermath issues, but i would guess if they did and have to start over they will do so with cutting edge tech. that will set new standards

This CAN be a problem, How do you now that a brand is making optics at the same factory next year? And will the quality be at the same level?
One example: Tasco had an OK (not excellent) reputation some years ago, but most people would now say they are not at the same quality level as they used to be.

Zeiss (except for Conquest) and Swarovski make their binoculars in Germany and Austria in their own factorys. Of course they buy some parts from others. I'am not 100% sure about Leica , but they have been manufacturing some compact models in Portugal.

I have no doubts about optics made at LOW in Japan, but China? Well, China optics can be fine one year but next year? Who knows?

What the?

I find JB's LACK of bias toward many things refreshing. He may have some preferences but who in the heck doesn't?

You're a keyboard commando with internet anonymity that likely struts like a tom when he can tell a pard over a brew that "he got into with JB on the internet."

If you're talking to me, I'm no person's minion.

I happen to like MD's candor, and lack of bias, and his willingness to state his honest opinions no matter what people think is refreshing, to me at least. I don't necessarily agree with him all the time (who does?), but I like it when a person, any person, states what he likes and why he likes it, not just regurgitating what they've read or heard. If anyone has an open mind at all, and has spent time in the field with lots of different binos lately (luckily I have in the past 2 years), they'd be enlightened by how good "non alphas" are. In fact, Z,L,& Swaro ought to be really nervous....China optics are coming on and coming on strong and fast, they do it cheap, and they'er getting better and better at it every year.

I'll screw your alpha world up one more time rockchucker.....I had a guy come shoot hogs with Carson XM HD 10x42's, that probably cost $200 or so. Excellent view, pretty good construction, no clue about the company itself.

And, we've no even mentioned the 6x30 Yo's as of yet...

Dober

I've never used one, but can't deny the great things I hear about them. If I showed up in camp with a pair of those girly Yo's, you know the pink ones like you have, I'd get my azz kicked!

Bought my 8X30 SLC's for around 400.00 almost new from a Pawn Shop. Wouldn't have paid full price for them.

Rockchck828, you are way out of line.
The only thing you got right is that you can test binoculars yourself.
The rest of it is BS. For one thing, I have found JB test procedures and his understanding to how optics work priceless. Do you know how to stack binoculars for testing ? Do you understand why it is a good idea to test that way ?
About taking a potential binocular outside a store and testing, that can also lead to misconceptions. For one, you'll need another along anyway to do a comparison. For another, light can vary alot during a day, and from day to day. Particularly with cheap optics, this can make a real difference.
That's just for starters.
I've always found JB's comments most helpful because he understands things like how to do unbiased testing. His example of using multiple testers proves that right there.
You owe him an apology. E

I'm in the market for binos and a spotting scope. Looking at the Swaro EL 10x42 & Leica 10X42/Swaro ATM 65HD & Leica comparable. Im curious how this stacking test works. I have a Demo set of Kahles and a Zeiss 85mm with tripod all the works Im trying to sell to get Swaro or Leica. Like everyone else spending this amount of $$$ I want the best bang for the BUCK(pun intended). Any and all info needed to make the best buy.
Thanx

coonass, it's none of my business, but if you're in the market for a primo 85mm class spotter you owe yourself a test drive of the Kowa Prominar 883/884 depending on if you like angled or straight eyepieces. I can tell you for certain it's better than the previous Zeiss 85 T FL as I've looked through them side by side many times. It's really evident at higher mags and at the edges.....Kowa is crystal clear to the edge. In every spotter test I've ever seen these Kowa's are the tops, with the swaro HD's close but no cigar. From what I've seen the Zeiss and Swaro's newest offerings are around $2700-$3000 with eyepiece. I bought my Kowa brand new for $2300 last fall. The Nikon 82Ed offers a great bang for the buck at around $1100 or so, but isn't in the class of the Kowa either (I had one). Great spotter though. If you're into 65mm class spotters the Kowa Prominar 663/664 is within a natsazz of the Swaro 65HD for half the price. Kowa does spotters better than anyone IMO. Have fun with it though.

Thanx JG, Ive noticed quite a few posts on Kowa but really never factored them with the Swaro's of today. I m interested in the 65mm spotters and will definetly have a look through a Kowa. Any idea what the stacking test method is all about?

Take a tripod with a flat top mount, stack one bino on top of another (secured by a strap) so that you can go back and forth between the two while viewing the same object/landscape. The object is a steady mount, hands free to eliminate any handshake.

Coon:
Are you thinking new or preowned? Both of your choices are top rate and personal preference will
be to get the best choice for your eyes. The best buy, if considering used should consider warranty,
Swarovski is often highly rated even for preowned, they will take care of you. Leica warranty
does not transfer on preowned, so that is an important distinction.
Good luck in your optics search.

The idea behind stacking is OK, but it works a lot better to have the optics side by side on tripods, both centered and focused on the same image. Stacking one on top of anothger works, but it is harder to get them both right on the same target, particularly if the binoculars are different in length.

The idea is you get a mental image of one glass and smoothly and rapidly shift to the other optic and you can get a sort of flash card comparison of the images. In other words you still have memory of the first image when you look at the second one.

Apparently you and JB have some sort of rectal relationship that make you think you are the GOD's of optic's.........I just happen to dis-agree.

One reason, quality rangefinding binocs

Only "upper level" pair I have is some older Classics.
Hunted with a pair one weekend and had to have some.
Got them for a sale price of $699 and never regretted it.
I don't carry them every pig or turkey hunt, but for seriously studying bucks I do.

jcc

Life sucks for you doesn't it?

In the West in particular, seeing better makes you a better hunter. The top tier bins resolve detail far better than lesser bins. They cost more for a reason.

I've been using Swaro, Leica and the upper-end Zeiss (non-Classics) for many years now and nothing I've seen, other than the top Nikon's, have been equal.

I find absolute pleasure being outdoors and top bins enhance that pleasure immeasurably. I'd give up a lot of rifles before I'd give up my Leica's...

I currently own a Zeiss Diascope 85T*FL 20-60x. How do they match up to Swaro and Leica. Ive tried to sell them but now Im pondering.

The Swaro HD spotters are fantastic for sure and I would put them above the Zeiss and Leica spotters, but they come with a steep price tag. The best one I've ever used is a Kowa Prominar 883/884....amazing scope and I put it at the top of the heap, bar none.

While I agree that the Swaro HD spotter might be above the older Leica Televid 77 like the one that I own. Have you seen the new Leica Televid 82 APO ?????
Huge WOW factor from both the optic's and the price tag, I believe it was priced at $3499.00 would like to do a comparison

At a price like that I'll never have the urge to see one. You can get the 884/883 for $2400 with eyepiece. I'd almost bet the farm the Leica can not provide a view any better. The Kowa is amazingly clear, sharp, and bright.

I don't, I have all Leupold and couldn't be happier.

I like Leupold also. but this statement proves that ignorance is bliss.

MckinneyMike,

I loaned my my 13X56 Minox to a fellow who has some Swarovskis. He purchased them because they were on sale for $1,400. After he used my Minox he told me if he had seen them before, he would not have spent the extra money.

I think these binocs are about alphas. The reason I bought them instead of the cheaper Nikons (the only other canadate) is the amount of movement to the sides without blacking out. The Nikons were very nice and several hunderd buckjs less, but for an all day hunt the Minox won the day.

I'd always wanted a pair of "Alphas" but never could see my way budget-wise. After all they represent the ne plus ultra in terms of optics. Then when Swaro changed their frame design ~2007 I came upon a new set of SLCs with Neu coatings like the new SLC Neu model but with the older frame which frankly I preferred anyhow. I also had come to REALLY like 7x bins over 8x through the use of vintage porros. So a great 7x roof with CS like Swaro offers at a nice price swayed me. I became an owner of a pair of 7x42 SLC Bs. They're built like the proverbial brick $%^& house. But they do exact a weight penalty which ultimately caused me to pick up a pair of Zen-Ray 7x36 ED2 bins. The later are lighter than the big Swaros and have great optical performance with a larger FOV although their sweet spot is somewhat smaller and their edges aren't the quality of what the SLCs give. That said you're looking at 95% of the performance in a less overbuilt frame at a significantly cheaper price. CS has been great but obviously Z-R doesn't have the track record of Swarovski.

There have been times when I've flirted with flipping my SLCs but between the model having been discontinued and Swaro USA coming through for little needs here and there (e.g. new improved rainguard for my winged eyecups to replace an old one with a torn strap loop provided gratis, etc.), I simply haven't mustered enough desire. Instead it stays in my battery serving when I want the best 7x twilight capabilities and for rough outings. I solved the weight problem with a Vero Vellini 55mm wide marine orange strap for my neck. May look goofy but really works well. All this said I will admit the 7x36 ED2 gets the most usage. Both are great bins.

If I had bought the Zen-Rays first, yeah it's more than likely that I would have been good to go without a pair of Alphas. But you can't deny how great the view is with the 7x42 SLCs

I use Zeiss FLs and know that I will never miss anything due to the bins. Better flare control, minimal CA, flat viewing field etc. etc.

It's true that there is a diminishing return on one's investment, but so are a lot of things in life.

Because they are the best, offer the highest possible performance.

Its a rarity for most to own the best of anything because of cost. Its nice to be able to own the very best of something.

Its a joy to use premium optics in the field.

Went with Zeiss Victory FL 10x42 due to (reduced) cost over Swaro ELs. Couldn't see spending another grand on a pair of binos. Zeiss is a known entity and I'm not sure my eye could discern the difference for the different in price.

Lastly, went with Alphas b/c it's a known entity. This isn't the case with a brand that's newer to the market.

Most folks base their decision to buy one brand over the other on optical quality... the image the binocular/spotting scope/ riflescope delivers to the eye. This is a logical and in many cases the easiest decision to make.

In this computer controlled world, many brands of optics have excellent optical performance. As many have written, it appears that there is not enough difference in optical performance to make the jump into the "Alpha Optics" price range.

While optical performance is important, and is what is most evident each time to use the optical instrument, optical quality is not the only judge of the quality of the unit. The mechanical reliability of the unit also plays a great part of the optical performance. The engineering decisions, materials, craftsmanship and quality control all come into how an optical products performs, but how it wears and if it will retain it close tolerances in rugged use. Not just how it looks, feels and performs when it's new.

23 years ago I purchased a Leica binocular. It was by far the most expensive optical purchase I had ever made. My friends, family and especially my wife, thought I was crazy for spending so much money on a binocular. I had done so because the older guys in my SCI chapter who were doing the type of hunting I only hopped to do in my life were using them and singing their praises. So I decided to save up and buy a pair, and I did.

I have used those binoculars on almost every hunt I have been on these past 23 years. They have been to Africa, Alaska, Canada, Mexico, and all the Western States. They have performed perfectly all these years. They have NEVER been to the repair shop, and they perform the same today as the day I bought them. Over the 23 years, these binos have been the best and most economical purchase I have made. Plus, I could sell them for what I paid for them.

This is why I buy Alpha optics... It's the best spent money in the long run, I am not buying a new pair every few years. And I have the joy of use and reliability under the worst conditions. Ovis_Chaser

Good question, Mike. I'm glad I got a Leupold 8X42 GR HD last December from Cabela's when they were closing them out at $500 with the rebate. I purchased my Leica 8X42 Trinovid BA 10 years previous at double that price and I've found the GR to have a sharper view that "pops" out better than the Leica. Don't know how they compare to the newer Euro HD glass, though.

Good post. I agree.

I have a pair of Zeiss 8x30s (they aren't Classics cuz' they were the main line when I got them) that marked their 25th anniversary last month. They are my only binoculars and have seen some hard use. I'm sure they are optically behind newer offerings but not so much that I can justify new ones. I'm not saying you have to get "Alphas" but I can say that mine (for their era) have certainly stood the test of time and use.

maybe we should define alpha binoculars....
if an alpha binocular is one that cost in excess of a certain dollar amount, then there are only three , four , five.
if an alpha binocular is one that takes your breath away and gives a stunning, near perfect view, then there are dozens.

Yep.

But one of the things I have found interesting in the past few years is how many hunters pursue the latest, tiniest increments in performance--and are willing to spend a bunch of bucks to do so.

Sure, many binoculars in recent years will beat anything we could buy, at whatever price, 20 or more years ago. But a really good 1990 binocular will still be a really good 2011 binocular. If it's been taken care of and we know how to use it, why switch?

Optics are like that. My 1988 vintage Nikon 300 f/2.8 EDIF gives up very little--if anything--to the latest Nikon 300 f/2.8 ED auto focus lenses. And that's comparing Fuji Velvia transparencies of test patterns under 20x loupes.

I have a Nikon porro-prism 7x35 from the mid-1980's that is just as sharp and bright as any roof-prism of similar size made today. But the binoculars made today are often tougher, more waterproof and, well, stylish. But I bought the Nikon 7x35 for under $100, which even in 1985 wasn't very cool.

I'm fixing your quote just to make me feel better as once in a while I worry that I'm "missing out."

I don't think stacking lining up binocs works that well because ones eyes focus and adjust to each particular binoc , and stay focused as the next binoc is looked thru.. It takes a little time for things to settle down in the eye.. By the time you look thru several different binocs several times your eyes can be so screwed up it doesn't mean much. Using a model in varying conditions over lots of time tells much more.I hunt with way too many buys who think they have a "good as" binoc and it soon becomes obvious they are not coming close to seeing what I am as far as distance and definition...That is why I stay with my Swaro.My binos ride around in an airplane at 43000 feet unpressurzed baggage at -57 degrees C and take it again and again.. Not sure many could do that.

I have several pairs of Alpha glasses. However , my go to glases are an OLD pair Zeiss 8x28 roof prisms. Small and light very good glass any coating differences are minor.
The best thing is I can unbutton 1 button on my shirt and tuck them inside shirt, out of weather and keep lens fairly clean while hunting.
Cisco

+1 on JG's and Mule Deer's "thumbs up" on Leupold Gold Ring binoculars.

I'm running a pair of Leupold Gold Ring 10x40's in open country and Yosemite 6x30's in the woods.

The GR's are very sharp with great color saturation and contrast and are built like a tank. They compare very well side by side with the European alphas to my eye. I bought them on the classifieds here in as new condition for less than a quarter of what a Zeiss or Swaro would cost.

The Yosemite's are much less sturdy but are surprisingly useful, easy to sit behind, sharp, light weight and cost $79. They've held up great for two years now.

They're different horses for different courses, but I like them both. If I miss game, it's not their fault. You don't have to spend an arm and a leg these days to have a great view of critters.

+1. Alpha should be model specific, instead of associated with one particular brand. I consider Nikon SE alpha. But their Monarch is just another expensive mediocre binoculars.

Hawker,



I totally agree. Therefore this is a good statement.