Given that the Bushnell Elite 10x42's I have now are the nicest pair I've ever owned, I am looking for some input on some models that make up the next tier in quality. I would like to keep working up as funds are available but given my lack of technical optics knowledge I want to make sure that my next pair gives the obvious impression that I am on my way up in the optics world...

I have held some very high end models that don't, through my novice eyes, look much different. Though obviously the gold standards in binos are Swaro, Zeiss, and Leica models, not Bushnell Elites.

I guess the question is do most of you what you have until you aren't happy with its performance or do you upgrade when it's convenient and recognize your gains when using your new gear over time? Also, what do you guys see as my best next step? My budget would be under 1000 so no alpha glass yet.

Nick

You can get an alpha near your $1000 price range......a Meopta Meostar (Cabelas Euro)10x42 HD. World class stuff.

Thanks JG. Those are certainly on the radar. I am holding out to hear more reviews on the new Meopro HD's, early talk is that they might be a repackaged Meostar HD... Have you looked at a pair yet?
Nick

No I haven't. Good luck with your search. Have some fun with it.

The Cabela's Euro are a great value. I like the 10X32's over the 10X42's. But they are both excellent. You need Swaro EL's to beat them, IMO.

I have heard good tings about the German Minox but below the big 3 euros I think the Meopta / Cabelas 10x42 HD is the nicest an closest I've looked through. I owned several sets of decent to good binos and the Bushnell elites are probably as nice as you really need for hunting....but I found a good deal on some new Swaro SLC 10x42's and hopefully I'm done for many years.

The view through those is really terrific, I've seen different colors on deer hides and individual features on hills near my place that I had never observed before. Eyes are different so I would try them all but the SLCs or Zeiss HT for under $2K new are really nice and you would know you made a step up without a doubt. Everyone has their own threshold of financial pain but in retrospect I would have saved up more sooner and taken fewer steps. On the other hand the $3-600 binoculars today are perfectly good for any hunting needs.

If one graphs out the cost vs quality relationship, what you get is an S curve. Start out at the bottom, add some quality, add some price, the graph goes up correspondingly. At some point in the rise up the curve we hit a spot where the rise of the graph begins to decrease in relationship to the quality increase in relationship to price increase. The graph begins to flatten out. It does not go flat, but the rate of upward movement on the quality axis slows down a lot. Someplace along this graph we get to the point of diminishing returns.

The first slowdown in the rise of the curve likely is somewhere around $4-500. The real slowdown is likely around the $1,000 mark. That is relative and depends on your own viewpoint and I don't think there is a strict definition of what price points these points occur. In short someplace upward of the lower point ($4-500) we start get less bang for the buck. At the upper end ($1,000) the bang for the buck really slows down.

Why somebody needs more binocular than can be got at about $1,000 with a Zeiss Conquest HD or the Meopta Meostar HD, I don't know. But if you need to spend more you can.

The degrees of change are subtle and are not as dramatic as one might expect from the increase in price.

I think we all need to go through our own personal evolution in arriving at selecting the best gear we take afield with us. In many ways the most important thing about how well we enjoy a binocular comes from how well it fits our face, hands, and eyes. If it has the right eye relief for you, the eyepieces fit your eyes, if it balances right and everything feels right when you use it, that is a big step in the right direction regardless of who made it or what you paid for it.

You are living at the fist dip in the curve with your binocular and you are eying the upper drop in the curve.

The Meopro HD is not the binocular that the Meostar HD is.

Just an FYI

I bought a pair of Swarovski SLC 10x42 on Ebay for $940.

I also bought a pair of Swarovski SLC 7x42 on Ebay for $600

I also bought a pair of Swarovski 8x30 SLC (the first version) on Ebay for $400. Not a big fan of them, but the are small and light weight.

How so Timber? I've been curious about this myself.

save your $1000 for a year and add an extra $500 to it in that time. Then go and buy a really good pair of used Leica geovids, or trinovids, if you don't want the rangefinder, and call it good.You will never regret it. Once you go to alpha glass,you will never go back. I did just what I mentioned above, and best move I ever made.

A Meopta Meostar HD is optically a better binocular than a Leica Trinovid. I hunted with the Trinovid for 15 years or so and now own the Meopta HD. Both are bulletproof.

I haven't used the Meopta's, so no opinion. Had a decent pair of leupold wind rivers before. Not even in the same ballpark as my geovids. They add an easy 10 minutes early and late to glassing, and there is never any eye fatigue. I spend a ton of time glassing and I would make a lot of cuts to my hunting budget and outfit before I gave up my leica's. There is that much difference.

Leica's products are great. As you know though, the warranty is for original owner only. That's not so great.

If there is one thing that I have learned about scopes and binoculars from my time at the 'fire, it is that there is no meaningful step up as such. There is nothing worth having except the absolute top of the line (read: price) currently available. A caveat here is that this will only be acceptable until the next model comes out at a higher price.

With all due resect John, "Duh".

With some things I agree with you, but if you spent 2 weeks glassing for big mule deer (or anything else) at long ranges sometime for 8 or 9 hours a day you would change your mind. If you are sitting in a box blind glassing deer at 200 yds then yes your choice of binoculars doesn't really matter. (as much.)

Its clear the coatings or possibly other aspects are lesser in the Meopro HD as the light transmission specs as listed on Meopta's website are quite higher on the Meostar HD series.


As to the original question, I would recommend the Meostar HD or possibly a used Zeiss Victory FL as a next step up for the OP.

atse,

So have you used any other brand of what you consider top-line binoculars that the Leica? Did you just go straight to the Leica from the Leupold?

What 5sdad is saying, with his tongue at least partly in his cheek, is that there are many Campfire members (and others) who firmly believe that the most expensive binocular is the best, and that if another more expensive binocular comes out this year they will switch to it, just because of the price and not any proven advantage in the glass.

Thanks for all the input guys. The Meopta are certainly a desired next step, though I have at least gotten to the point after looking through the Bushnells over the last couple of days that they do still look better to me than any I've owned in the past. Probably better not to spend another $1K until I find a legitimate flaw.

That being said there seems to be one bino in particular that keeps popping up as a giant killer. Many well respected reviewers put the Zen Ray ED3 at Meostar type levels and the cost is something attainable. Are they really that good or are people looking to spend less money more likely to rate the underdog higher then the optics they can't quite afford at the time?

Nick

JB - I've purchased all my used stuff from those guys.

A good tactic!

Nick - don't overlook the ZenRay Prime HD.

I should have clarified this before now but one reason I am looking at something to add to the stable is that I really like the feel of an open hinge design. They just seem to fit my hands, especially in field situations. Not sure why but after having both designs the Vanguard Endeavors that were stolen out of my truck were the best feeling pair I've had.

Nick

Don't blame you there - I prefer the open-hinge design myself.

For the coin, I'd go Swaro SLCs or old Zeiss Classics (10x40) and not blink.

Leica has great glass, but schit CS when you need it. Swaro has the best in the business without any questions.

Minox and the Meoptas are truly great glass, but if you're going that high already, just get the Swaros and be done.

The ED3 is great glass for the money to my eyes.

The ZEN ED series is very good. Many can't won't get past the Chinese link. But they are very good. The new ZEN ED 4 will be out shortly. The ZEN Prime HD is better than the ZEN ED series. They are sure as hell better than the Bushnell you have.

John, I haven't owned many pairs of "higher end binocs. I do have an older pair of Steiners, and have used Leupold Goldrings that weren't mine. They were very good glass, just not as good as my Leica's, and likely not as good as Swaro's or Zeiss, although I haven't used them. I understand your point that many people jump from the latest greatest thing to the next. I'm not in that camp. There are likely many bino's that will fit the bill for this post, not all of them expensive. But, as you know, there is truly a difference in high end glass. Not everyone may need it or want to pay for it. But I use mine almost daily and can tell you that it was worth the price of admission. And there are enough deals out there that if you don't mind the "stigma" of owning used equipment you can get a pair of top end bino's at a reasonable price.

So the cheapskate in me (can't seem to make him go away) found some articles last night on the Sightron Blue Sky SII 8x32's and Pentax DCF BC 9x32's. Of course like every other decent bino's there are comparisons to pairs costing hundreds more and people can't believe how underpriced they are, and on, and on. Though it did make me wonder.

Any experience with either compared to some of the models mentioned above? I am thinking that a pair in the 32 range would be a better fit as I do have the Bushnells and smaller/ lighter in my situation would be a very handy thing.

Any feedback on these?

Thanks,
Nick

Well, I think you need to decide on what power/size binoculars that you are really looking for first. A "lower" 8x32 is not going to compare to a high-end full-size 8 or 10x. That's simply not apples to apples, and thus would not be a "step up" for you.

Sometimes it's worth to buy a few excellent tools whether it binoculars, rifles, shotguns etc. than to have a closet or safe full of stuff.

Save your money and buy the best and buy them once.

Sell off the "surplus stuff", you can always buy more later. Put those proceeds towards your new bino's whatever brand you choose.
I have done it several times, more so in the last 2-3 years because of more disposable income however I find that now it's more trading, buying, selling and just trying a few things out like lightweight rifles or high end bino's and culling the case again.

i have had swaro binos for 20 years. Spent too much when i bought them. They are now worth more than i paid. I often wonder how many "step up " in binoculars i could,have went thru to get to what i have now enjoyed for 20 years and also how much i could have spent in numerous "step ups"
I notice how cabelas euro products make theirs binos the same color and shape to appear as swaro . Tells me which cabelas beleives are best.

I currently dont own a hunting binocular, but I am after one as the season is winding down. I hope to have a new one for next season.

I hunt with a 2,5x20 Leupold, on a 30-06. I prefer glassing with the binocular, then sneak up and shoot with a low powerd scope. It adds excitment, and because I really dont "need" the meat, I try to do hunting as imersive as possible.

Now, in Astro binoculars, which I have two of. A Fujinon FMT 10x50 and a Swaro SLC 15x56 (2014 model), I vastly prefer the Fujinon! Its AFOV, or apparent field of view is much larger, which makes the "picture" you are looking through much larger and involving.

I belive that is also important when using a hunting binocular. Some have smaller AFOVs, and its like looking at a smaller "window" but more magnified. And some with larger AFOVs, which almost fills up you entire field of view. I feel its much more comfortable to look through a 8x32 with a HUGE picture, for hours, then a smaller one, in 10x42.

Take, magnification x degrees (often stated on website etc) = rough approximation of AFOV.

Just take note that often manufactures magnification and degrees are not true. My Fujinon is actually 10,4 mag, and 6,7degrees = 69,7. Compared to 10 x 6,3 = 63.

It makes a huge difference!

I made a move up in binoculars a couple of years ago. For years, I used a pair of Leupold Wind Rivers. They were, and are, for that price point excellent to my eyes. I first noticed them lacking when I made my first hunting trip for antelope. Living in a heavily wooded area of the east, I just wasn't used to "looking that far." I also do a good bit of wildlife viewing, mostly birds and clarity, brightness, sharpness and color are all important for that use, and I was ready for something better in that regard. By the way, you might check out some birding forums. Those folks are pretty demanding of their glass but they don't seem to care much about brand loyalty or the look at what an expensive pair of binoculars I own factor. I am also now past 40 and my eyes are changing (I've always had excellent vision until now) and they are doing it in a hurry.

I did a ton of research and looked at a bunch of binoculars. I saw a step up from where I was ($300) when I started looking at $600 and then again at $1000. That was my maximum I could spend, although I did look at some of the "alpha glass" so many on here recommend. I have a couple of friends with Swaros. If money was no object I would have bought them and been happy. I have no doubt the top end in price carries that price for a reason.

To answer your question, I think every time you double the money you spend there is a step up in quality. It is not a doubling in quality. Going from $100 to $300 is a HUGE jump. Going from $300 to $600 is noticeable. $600 to $1200 is too, but less so. I can tell even less difference, although it is there and I suspect hours behind the glass would make it more obvious, when you go from $1000 toward the top-end. So, I think what you have to ask yourself is, what is my budget and what do I need?

With those two questions in mind I decided on the Cabela's Euro HD. Those are going for about $1200 now. When I bought them, they were $1000, but I hit things perfectly and only have $800 in mine. I have not regretted it for a moment. They work well with my eyes (truly believe that individual variations on vision account for much of the debate on this site) and I honestly can't see a big enough difference when I look through Swaros to think about doubling or tripling my investment. If I were doing it again and had $2500 in my pocket that I had to spend, I would still buy the Euro HDs and put the rest toward a hunting trip or buy a new rifle or something.

Maybe my eyes will change more and I will "see" things differently in the future.

atse,

Thanks for your clarification--and I agree that top-notch binoculars are well worth the price when you REALLY use them. However, as SteveC99 pointed out earlier in this thread, as the price goes up there's far less gain per buck.

I get to really use a lot of binoculars, and have for many years. I completely agree with his post, especially about the $500, $1000 and $1000+ levels of performance. Today we have binoculars retailing for $500 (or even less) that are of equal quality to anything you could buy for almost any price 25 years ago--and binoculars costing $1000 that are BETTER than anything available in 1990. And there were some very good binoculars back then..

So no, I don't feel that somebody wanting a good hunting binocular today is better off saving all their spare change until they can buy the most expensive binoculars on the market. $500 will buy very fine glass today, and if somebody wants a $1000 or $2500 binocular later on they $500 glass will still be a very fine backup. I've had to resort to my less-expensive backup binoculars on at least three "major" hunts in the past decade, and didn't feel handicapped in the least. One of those backup binoculars cost around $900, another around $500, and one even cost less than $100.

John, very good post - thanks.

Excellent, as usual MD. A year or so ago you posted a thread on brand bias. It had a reference to optics and wine? I think? Would you happen to have a link? I kept it for a long time and finally lost it. It was an outstanding piece. Thanks!

I got that test from a magazine article, which is somewhere in my files. It would probably take too long to find it, but the basic test involved a bunch of different bottles of wine without labels, but with price tags.

They had a bunch of people taste the wines, as I recall mostly casual wine drinkers, and in general they preferred the taste of wines with higher price tags, even though the price tags were random.

But that wasn't the really interesting part. The people were also hooked up to a machine that tested brain waves, and when they tasted wines from bottles with higher price tags, the part of their brains that responds to pleasure reacted with more pleasure, even when the wine actually retailed for $5 rather than $50. The authors of the study concluded that perceived values actually change the way our brains respond.

John, repeat of my above post.

John,

There is no doubt that the equipment that we have today, even the mediocre stuff, is much better than what was available in the 80's and 90's. As a kid in the 80's I had a 788 243 and a tasco scope. it was still pretty good. I like the geovids I mentioned, not only for the good glass, but for the rangefinder that it has. I use it as much as the binoculars. Nice not having 2 separate items.

I'll sure sign on to that one. What I would like to do is go around with a traveling unmarked optics demonstration. Just a bunch of unmarked binoculars with either no armor or drastically different from what the binocular comes with. The complete disguising would be impossible in some cases. But when a user picks up a binocular marked only with an ID number and a small test protocol designed to point out what that user likes or does not like, the results would literally be life altering, I think. When you have in your hand before you look at it, say a Swarovision, and you have read all about how great it is, you expect to see greatness, and it should be no surprise that you do. Thing is the greatness you see is often skewed to greater levels than are justified. On the other hand if you are going to look at something generally derided as a cheap POS, then a cheap POS is what you will think you are seeing. On the other hand a more objective evaluation caused by being handed an unknown binocular and a test sheet, you will be far more likely to see what is there for what it is, not what you think is going to be there.

Several years ago a friends brother was hunting Elk at the Chalma ranch in NM..
On the last day of the hunt late in the day the guide spots a nice bull with his Swarovski binoculars.
The hunter raises the gun, can't see the bull, guide looks it's there.
Hunter still can't see the deer and looks through the binocs and spots the bull.
He has an average scope on a expensive hunt.
Moral of the story he upgraded the scope and purchased high end binocs. Granted he could easily afford them.
When I talked to a fellow 5-6 yeas ago about a S&B scope he had mounted on a rifle he was selling In asked what was the difference in his eyes and his answer "15 minutes at dawn and dusk".
That made me a believer in higher end optics and sold my "surplus" guns etc, qsaved up and purchased my first Swarovski scope and then binoculars.

By the way I paid $1,300 for the Swarovski, sold them 3 years later with a new harness and hard case for $1100 to a campfire member and purchased a new pair of 8.5x42 EL swarovision last month.

See if you can find the Swarovski 8x30 Habicht.

Dont belived its sold in the US, but its a very very good binocular! Maybe a dealer can find one for you.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=251846

Nowadays, if a guy thinks he's going to get an extra 15 minutes of viewing time/shooting light by using a $2500 scope/bino as opposed to a $500 scope/bino, he's going to be sadly mistaken. I've had m.y own McKinley's side by side with my own SLC HD's to know that there MAY be a 1-3 minute difference....MAYBE.

I've also had a VXIII side by side with a S&B Summit. 15 minutes ain't happening.....once again maybe 2-3 at most.

The biggest difference, IMO, between $500 binoculars today, and the premium stuff, is in the build quality, not optics. There are several $1000 binoculars today that will give you 98% of what a $2000 binocular does. You'll never know what you're missing, and even if you have them side by side it will be extremely hard to see. Side by side with my Meopta HD/Swaro SLC HD for example.

Good study.

The presence of scarcity also produces a spurt of "buy that now" transmitter substances...

Just in time inventory and "demo" pricing...:)

I'll bet post purchases of the sacrificial type, a bunch of defense mechanisms kick in....beyond hiding it from the significant other.

I got brainwashed into the roof prism thing decades ago so it may be too late for me(maybe But along the way I bought 2 pairs of these, the Swaro Habicht poor prisms; a 10x40 and a 7x42, both of which I wish I had back.A guide in southeast Alaska "taught" me about them....the dingiest,dankest place i have ever been for glassing and his 7x42 was the best performing of any bin I took up there.

The 10x40's so badly beat my Zeiss Classics in depth of focus, sharpness,color and clarity that there wasn't much doubt about it. Seems they were in focus "forever" with a wonderful 3-dimensional view.I found myself banging the focus adjustment much less than with a roof prism..

They rank in a handful of the "best" hunting/viewing bins i ever owned. If you want alpha optics at half the price tag, these are how I'd go.The optics are every bit as good as any roof prism.

They may look old fashioned, not as chic as a roof,but leave nothing on the table in performance. at a much lower price point.I have been promising myself another 7x42 but just have not pulled the trigger.

JG most all my Canadian whitetail hunting has been done with pretty mundane standard Leupold scopes. I am not one of those folks who has been thwarted and lost a chance at a big buck by not having alpha glass on the rifle.

But I do know a couple people who have; they whine to the high heavens!

It can happen. One guy still bends my ear over a big buck he could not shoot with a 2.5-8X Leupold in an Alberta alfalfa field.

One guy with a lot of hunt time up there had this to say... while the difference is not all that great, but I get 3 minutes more at dusk and dawn, that's 6 extra minutes a day and over the course of a 10 day hunt, that's an extra hour of "prime time",which became, in his mind, significant.

Since he had killed more big deer up there than me, and had more years "in",I could not argue the logic.

Which elites do you have? I had the elite 10x42s and sent them in for repair my fault....They sent me a pair of the new elites with ed glass!!!!!very nice upgrade....I am very Happy with them...I think you would have to spend a Whole lot more for very little improvement...

Not doubting you for a second Bob, but I've never not got a shot at last/pre dawn light due to the scope I was using. However, throwing a little red dot into a VX6 or Meopta duplex reticle.....any potential problem would be solved forever.

This bruiser was at very, very last available shooting light and I could have easily shot him with my VX6/duplex......

[img:left][/img]

JG I hear you...like i said I never lost one.

But I now have one red dot scope here .

I have the new 10x42 ed's and in all honesty I have realized that there is little I could afford that would improve on the view. I have come to the conclusion that any dissatisfaction I have is with the shape. I am a fan of open bridge binos and to satisfy the itch I am looking at different 32mm options, that way I won't be buying another pair to fill the role of what I already own.
Nick

I'm late to this thread, but will say you should look at the Leupold Gold Ring Binos. They hang with the best to my eye and Leupold does have fine customer service if you ever need it.

Illuminated is THE way to fly for hogs, btw.

Might try Rockstad Enterprises, they sell new, used, & demos of all brands. I bought demo Leica 10X42 binos for $770 and a used but like new Leica 20-60 spotter for $930. This was a few years ago, but it was the best deal I could find at the time.

Warranty & customer service should weigh in heavy on your choice, Swarovski & Zeiss may be the best in that regard.

Buy once & cry once.

I like the Zeiss 10x42 HT demo I bought from Camerland. Quite a saving on the normal retail of over 2K. Exceptionally sharp and great in low light. My Swaro 8x32 SV EL are great too but I think the Zeiss has better center resolution.

For the money I think the Zeiss Conquest HD is outstanding value. Very little difference from the alpha models.

Here are links to two press releases that refer to two possible articles;
One done by CalTech researchers;
http://www.caltech.edu/news/wine-study-shows-price-influences-perception-1374
"Marketing actions can modulate neural representations of experienced pleasantness," published January 14, 2008 in the early online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
and another done in England by Richard Wiseman.
http://www.wired.com/2011/04/should-we-buy-expensive-wine/

The Wiseman "study" had some methodological problems that raise questions about the validity of the results. You can read about that here;
http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/wine-science/the-wiseman-%E2%80%98study%E2%80%99-%E2%80%93-cheap-versus-expensive-wine

Valid or not, it's apparently it's an area of interest for the wine industry, because there were other similar studies done on perception of the quality of wines being colored by the price.
Here's another example you can download;
www.wine-economics.org/workingpapers/AAWE_WP35.pdf

I'll leave it up to ya'll to decide for themselves whether wines and Bino's are subject to similar judgements.

p.s. JB check your email box.

How one hunts determines the quality required.

At 77, I'm past walking into the high desert looking for mulies. I'm not likely to be more than a couple of hundred yards from my van, Kawasaki Mule, Ranger, or at worst, a horse. My favorite white tail hide is a box stand overlooking a food plot, a game trail, and a spring. Everything a buck needs is there including girls. I can park my van in a hidden spot some forty yards out.

I bought SLC 8x30 when they came out some 25 + years ago. Last year I was looking them over thinking of an upgrade and trashed the diopter wheel. I sent them to the service center, and when they returned, they were better than new.

I can tell the old SLC is not phase corrected when I look at the clear sky. It is not an issue looking over a buck at somewhere between 70 and 250 yards. Unless I run into a heck of a deal, this optic will do for me.

SIL just bought a place in the edge of the expanding mule deer territory. A farm with a creek running through it. Here, the mulies are hunted much like white tails. I intend to place a box stand where I can see them feeding around the edges, which will be planted food plots. The old glass will do here.

My greatest need is to sell some unused guns and trade for a new fuel injected, power steering mule. My old one is about as temperamental as the flesh and blood variety.

Jack

That sounds like a good plan to me jt402. Good luck with it, and take some pics when you smack a buck!

I bought a pair of Meopta "Demo" 8x42's a few months ago for the neck snapping amount of 699. One can shop and buy Swaros at 1k more or less and they have better resale value if that is what you do. That said these Meostars are very very good binos.

The first and last 15 minute argument is certainly worthy of discussion, but I think in many cases it is overemphasized and probably applies to a fewer number of instances and shooters than suggested. No doubt it applies to many hard core whitetail and some muley hunters (such as many here) but for the rest of the world.....

Unless you are near or exactly positioned from where you will shoot, once your game is spotted, you are often going to gave to close distance or reposition yourself which is going to burn at least a few of those critical minutes. You may or may not end up getting a shot.

That said, each person needs to decide for themselves the rate of return the alpha glass or investment in an illuminated reticle will bring.

Just food for thought.