I just purchased a Tikka T3 Lite, 270Win; the rifle will be used for whitetail and hopefully mule deer and Elk. For whitetail and Mulie, I'll use a 120 or 130gr pill; Elk will be 150gr Accubonds.

I've narrowed the scope choices down between two: VX2 3-9x40mm CDS or VX2 3-9x40mm LR Duplex, with the CDS system costing $28.00 more. Based upon reading alone, it's my thought the CDS would be the more logical choice for shots greater than 300yds.

For those of you that are actually using or have used the above systems/reticles; what is your recommendation?

Please feel free to elaborate on the pros/cons of either prospective scope.

The problem with multiple loads and CDS is that you have to send in your load specifics to have the CDS built. If you go that route, I would say you're better off picking a 140 gr pill that will handle all your game so the dial will be on. I don't think that's much of a stretch with today bullets.

Also, 140 is the largest AB they make. The 150 LR AB is a different animal. I would not personally choose that for a close elk load.

I would go with 140 AB or a 150 partition and call it a day (if they shoot in your tube).

I can't recall using a less helpful reticle than the LR from Leupold. I'm not much on their CDS either, but would prefer the CDS to the LR by a substantial margin. I'd much rather by a used Leupold, send it to Beaverton, OR and have an M1 elevation turret installed. It'd be a much better system.

Either way would work.

I think the dot's or some type of Christmas tree reticle is the way to go on hunting rig out to 500yds.

The subtensions of the LRD will only work on max power. You could change your subtensions with the power ring but that's pretty complicated for hunting. With a 150 at 2850fps you can zero at 200 and the dots will be basically dead on at 300, 400 and the post at 500. A 120 or 130 moving faster would be something like 310, 420 and 520.

I have a couple of scopes with CDS. The zero stop is a must, it is absolute junk without it. I also just get them in moa and make a chart or use my phone for drops, much more versitile. That said I'm losing confidence in them I've had one go down twice. And the return to zero just is not reliable.

I find the LRD to be great for the sort of shooting I do in the field.

Dial-turning isn't something I see myself doing in the field, while dots offer a quick reference for "close enough" shots on game out to 400.

YMMV

For me, the various dots and hashes are useless in poor light, or up against dark cluttered backgrounds. The CDS is almost cheating when the wind cooperates. If you don't like the specific yardage dial concept, just have leupold make a CDS dial in MOA with a zero stop and use ballistic drop charts you can generate online. One dial will do it all in this instance.

I just put a LRV duplex into a VXII 6-18 and mounted it on my .222 Sako. I think the result was excellent. I killed ground squirrels out to 420 yards with it and anything I could guess the distance to correctly inside that was pretty much dead meat. I wouldn't hesitate to put the LR-D on a big game rifle. I am not a fan of the CDS knobs from the tactile standpoint. They just don't seem robust or positive to me and I don't have confidence in them. Doesn't mean they are crap but that is my experience with them. A B&C might be more useful with the windage hashes, but it is also busier and not available on the VX2.

They do a CDS MOA dial so you don't have to worry so much about changing bullets. Chronograph, ballistics software, and a little range time will do the rest pretty easy. Seems a no brainer to me to just run that dial for everything.

If you're going to run a dial, just get the M1. You won't regret it.

If you figure your shots are only out to 500 or so, the hashes/dotz are easy enough.

And for sure, I would go with one single load--the 140 Accubond is a winner in the 270.

The Leupold 6x42 LR works well. My only hunting load for my '06 is regulated to 300yds first dot, slightly less than 400yds for the second dot and ~480yds for the post. I prefer it to dials in the field as it is faster and i am looking at the target when making decisions on range. Besides, 500 yds is a very long shot in field conditions.

Any factory 180 gr. 30-06 loads that will match THE LR Duplex out to 500 yards?

Over CDS any day.

I prefer the LR reticle.

I sight-in a bit differently than Leupold's instructions.

Since the reticle is only exactly correct for one BC and velocity, I sight-in at the longest distance I can, and let the error come back to the shorter distance instead of sighting in at 200 yards and having the error at the longer distance.

My pet .30/06 "beanfield" load with a 200 yard zero is:
-9" @300yds
-24" @400Yds
-48" @500yds
whereas the LR Duplex subtends
6.57" @300yds
19.2" @400Yds
39.1" @500yds

With the 400 yard dot sighted in exactly, I am:
2.4" high @200yds with the crosshairs
zeroed @250yds with the crosshairs
1.8" high @300yds with the first dot
zeroed @400yds with the second dot
-3.5" @500yds with the post

I would much rather deal with a couple inches of error at the shorter distances than 5-9" of error at the longer range.

Michael

I prefer the CDS. I have two VX-III 3.5-10's with it and have had very good luck with them and will be getting several more for other rifles. They have played a helpful role in killing 2 elk and several deer in the last 3 years. My first one I put on a model 70 Supergrade in 300 Win Mag before my first elk hunt and ordered the dial for my load with 200 gr gamekings and it worked flawlessly out to 700 yards which is the most I could get out of 1 revolution of the turret. I then pulled it off that rifle and put it on a 700 titanium 30-06 shooting 180 gamekings and had a dial made for that load for my elk hunt this last year and again it was spot on. I just put one on a Paul Jaeger rifle that I bought recently and as soon as I get a load worked up for it I will be ordering another dial. Midway has the VX-III 3.5-10 CDS on sale right now and would be a nice step up from the VX-II for not much more.

Here's the link.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/13...al-system-cds-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Why is it so many guys can't figure out how to use an LR reticle with their (any???) chosen load?

Enter the data with your zero into a trajectory program, hit calculate, and see at what distances you are 2.2, 4.8 and 7.8 moa low. With a typical 270 - 30-06 load a 250 yard zero puts the dots on at about 350 and 450 yards, and the post at roughly 550.

Depending on you elevation, a 180 Accubond at factory velocity will come pretty close.
At sea level,that load drops about 1/2 moa more than the LR Duplex calls for (2.0 at 300, 4.9 at 400, and 8.3 at 500) and at 10,000' it's about 1/2 moa flatter than the reticle would give (1.6 at 300, 4.3 at 400 and 7.2 at 500)

The dots are uber simple.

With a new rifle I get zero'd at 200 yards and then while I'm doing load work up at 400 yards zero the bottom dot.

Just use a 2'x2' target board with a 6" round dot in the center.

Re-check top dot(should be close at 300 yards), recheck duplex(should be close at 200 yards). You're all set to go hunting.

Past 400-450 yards a turret would be the way to go but that's farther than I shoot when hunting so I'm not worried about it.

Next thing you know you'll be suggesting a LR duplex w/ an M1 turrett...

David

I almost ordered one to try but figured it would be overload for my memory.

Fixed 6x and dots is the only way to go for us simpletons!

I just received my FX-3 6-42 w/ LR reticle, M1 Turret and 200yd parallax setting....

David

+1

If the guys who think lining up a load w/ dots is so complicated would take some milk jugs out and practice they'd find it much simpler than they could imagine sitting in front of a computer screen.

Maybe someone mentioned this and I missed it, but Leupold can install dots matched to your ballistic specifications. Like say, a 286 grain Nosler started at 2400.

Mine is a FX-3 6x42 LRD going on a Weatherby MK V Ultra Lightweight 30-06.
Just thinking about one of the High Energy Factory Loads from Federal,Remington,Hornady that bump a 180 gr. up to 2900 + fps.
Sea level here in Alabama, If I could draw the Pallisades unit?
Idaho at what ever the alt. is their.

The LR Duplex works well on my 7mm topped with the vx 6 2-12x using a 140 gr NBT @3225 fps. My velocity was an average verified over a chronograph as well as the bullet bc being verified. If a person has an accurate velocity and bc the rest is just math. The figures I give are by the book, I did test at the given ranges and can not dispute the results. It should also be considered that the size of the dots on the LR Duplex are 1 moa in size and at times it is more precise to use tops or bottoms of the dots.
Sighted 2.4" high at 100 yards gives a 265 yd zero.
350 yd -6.4" top of 1st dot is -5.9"
400 -11.9" bottom of 1st dot -10.8"
450. -18.7". top of 2nd dot - 19.35"
500. -27.1" bottom of 2nd dot -26.5"
600. -50.2". top of the bottom post is -46.9"
This works for me.

I love watching the desk dot pilots figure it all out on their computers. I'd really like to see some videos of dots out to 600. I've got several with folks running 300-600 on a BDC turret.... it's fast, accurate, and even a noob can immediately understand it.

I know a couple guys who can make hits with dots (Hondo can put down to 500).... but it's certainly the exception. Outside 300-350ish the wheels seem to fall off the dots. So, for most shots on big game (out to 350-400).... they're alright.

I guess I just don't understand how there's an 'acceptable margin of error' of 3.... 4.... 5" at those ranges. Compound that with 'gap shooting' the dots.... a little wind, and you've got a recipe of a solid 8"-10" "miss". That may work on an elk.... but an 8" miss (any direction) on a deer and you've got a potential rodeo.

I also don't understand how the fixed dots are the titties.... while a 'fixed' Ballistic Turret is "too rigid". If I pick a similar bullet.... my drops are going to match my turret very closely... or I can simply wrap a piece of tape around it and write new yardage numbers that are spot on. Middle in the middle is always better than "hold the third dot just a little low on it".

I also hear the 'dots are faster' argument all the time.... and that may be true.... if you need to take a split-second 457 yard shot at an alarmed animal. Dots, turrets, laser guided Tomahawk.... that's a bad shot man. If it's past 300, and I don't have time to spin a turret.... I don't have time for the shot... I've missed more than enough at that range to know my limitations.

If you run a CDS, leave it spun to 200-250ish.... and hunt it. Everything inside 300 gets shot just like it has for 100 friggin years. Everything over 300 you get a rest and spin the dial. It works well, it allows you to eliminate as much ballistic margin for error as possible, and allows you to put the X where it needs to be...

Fully agree with every thing you posted. I’m a turret turner from way back. I learned hold over and under in sniper school as well as turning turrets and I happen to like the precise hold that turrets allow for. If you know your equipment it’s so easy most can do it. Reading the wind is where the men are separated from the boys.

Don't reticles like the LRD have to calibrated to a load at a specific magnification? Unlike the CDS.

My Leupold VX-III, 4.5-14x42, CDS has had nothing but problems. I purchased this scope early 2011 for a trip to Africa. I has been mounted on my Rem. 700 SPS, 300WSM. My 180 gr. Accubond load was sent to leupold for the CDS elevation turret as the scope was designed for. It has not held elevation zero more times than I wish to elaborate. It is currently back at Leupold, 2nd time, for warranty work hopefully to correct this problem. I have no problem with Leupold service and turn around, but the scope has not lived up to Leupold legend. Now, having said this, the baggage handlers for Delta airline may well be the culprits in regard to handling. Although, this rifle and another, sporting a Burris Compact, traveled from NW MT to RSA in a Browning gun vault case.Tthis is one of the heavy duty plastic containers with egg crate foam inside. The Burris has retained zero for many years. The Leupold CDS has been knocked out of zero too many times. My .02 cents. Good luck! MTG

Amen brother. Lots of long range hunter wannabe's either overlook this fact, or won't admit it.

Only thing that could make CDS worse is a custom dial.

CDS is so simple a caveman could use it.

Am I the only one still holding over with a basic sim-plex reticle? Now I will not shoot past 400 and have not needed to past 300. A fossil it seems.

Ed, like you I can shoot to almost 400 w/a simple back line hold with 2 of my 3 rifles. Most men really don't understand how far 400yds actually is. powdr

If memory serves me well(yea right) my 6x36 with the LR and a 150PT in a 270 to 500yds was money! Past that you got no choice.

Dogshooter you're right for beyond 400.

I couldn't agree more!

I will only shoot at Prairie dogs at extended ranges and I can shoot them regularly at 400+ yards, but I miss some too, probably 50%. I know an elk or even a deer would be not too hard to hit at 500 yards on a still day. But to me, hunting is not a stunt which a lot of immature hunters are trying to do with their, "I shot my deer at 600 yards, whoopee."
What's wrong with hunting deer rather than setting up the shooting bench and shooting deer so you can brag about your shooting skill.
So you can read ballistics charts and you can judge range with your range finder and on a still day you can hit your game animal. Shooting game animals is a lot different than hunting.

Wondering how many guys with their dots have ever actually shot them at all ranges to see what's what? Can you actually make hits with your 432 yard dot on a 12" plate at 450?

I bet 80% have never run them further than their 200 or 300 yard range will allow.... and another 10% hasn't run them further than the end of a keyboard.

Same goes for most guys with a drop chart taped to their stock. I see FAR more theory than reality in this post.... and in the field. I run into guys shooting all manner of rigs at 'long range'... and have yet to see a guy running dots make a cold bore hit at anything over about 350. Truth be told, I very rarely see any random dude make a cold bore shot at 400+..... regardless of gun/glass/caliber.

If you 'start at the start' and 'keep it simple'.... hitting stuff to 500ish is pretty easy. A turret, some tape, and about 20 rounds should Tell you what you need to know. The next 980 rounds will Teach you what you need to know..... after that.... you should be good to go.... regardless of glass choice.... or the opinions of desk jockeys.

I purposely placed my plates at odd ranges(230-509 yards) so that it wouldn't be so 'easy'. Other than offhand or kneeling I rarely shoot under 200 yards.

Shooting a scoped, high powered, center fire hunting rifle at 100 yards is almost silly. Kind of like the dude who has a big shiny pickup and is afraid to get it dirty much less haul anything.

However, shooting past about 420 yards and it becomes quite evident for me that I shouldn't shoot any farther at a big game animal.

For actual hunting dots are fine, for sniper style hunting turrets are obviously better.

I figured out that I much prefer to hunt/stalk than snipe so never really got into turrets. And about half the time it's too windy to be shooting(at an animal) past 400 yards anyway.

That and I don't like/trust fiddling around with scopes. Set it and forget it.

Yes, because sitting in a house overlooking a greenfield and waiting for the buck that you have 732 pictures of to show up, and then killing him with his head in the alfalfa at 121 yards is "hunting".....

These conversations never cease to entertain. Lots of guys are all too happy to use superior technology to defeat an animal's senses by taking a 300-yard shot. But if someone stretches it out to 500, they're "not hunting" or "unethical." The funny part is, the distance at which it becomes unethical usually starts at the distance just beyond where the detractor is comfortable shooting.

No houses or greenfields out here bro......just lots of wind.

[img:left][/img]

Smokepole, the distance at which shooting at game becomes unethical is, IMO, determined by the wind, atmosphere, shooting light, stability, etc, not how badazzz a guy's gear or imagination is.

I hear that.... here's a view from one of my treestands....



I absolutely concur on wind and timing dictating ethical shooting distance. This is why I'm an advocate of actual field shooting.... the best way to know how all the variables add up... is to shoot in the wind, and schitty light, and rain, and from various positions, etc.

Good judgement comes from bad experiences.... and bad experiences come from poor judgment. Better to stage the poor experiences and apply lessons learned..... than to find out the hard way.

Some people would have a heart attack if shown what a real 400 yards looks like. The same person after being edumacated might abruptly switch their opinion to 400 being some miraculous distance that nobody can shoot at. Still others will regard 400 as a rather easy shot, quite makeable by anyone that bothered to develop that moderate skill level.

When told about long hunting shots you have to figure out which guy you're dealing with. One guy's unlikely is the next guy's easy, the next guys fantasy and the next guy's BS story.

Most of the deer/antelope I shoot are between 150-250 yards away.

Practicing at 350-450 makes the shorter shots much easier.

If someone wants to get tactical and snipe deer that's fine provided they aren't using live animals as target practice and bragging rights.
Backing up from an animal just to make the shot longer is retarded but I'm sure a few sniper dorks have done just that. The sharpied up yardage sign for the hero shot is beyond funny but whatever.


Main thing is realizing personal limitations and then sticking with them in the field.

I'd agree with that. I'm not sure what you mean by "badazzz gear" but I can tell you that "badazzz gear" will make a difference in the right hands.

Only if the wind allows.....that's been my point all along.

Agree SamO, 100%

The wind might not allow me to make a shot that another guy can easily make. If you take bullets alone as an example of "badazzz gear," the right ones drift less, and in the right hands tend to drift where they're supposed to.

The LR duplex works. I took a cow elk at 380yds with one,it was as easy as splitting the distance between the dots.

Then I began to shoot quite a bit more, and started to go up into the hills to shoot at rocks and such.

Then I found that the dotz are a great hunting tool, for plinking it leaves a bit to be desired.
Then I had a M1 installed on a VX-ll 3-9, worked great for 4 or 5 shots, then return to zero was more of an approximation.

Switched to SS scopes with .1mrad turrets and a MilQuad reticle.
Game changer. Able now to correct misses accurately, and dial up and down all day with actual return to zero.

For a pure big game hunting rifle, dotz just plain work.
For the hunting rifle that gets shot all year at all manner and size of targets, turrets and matching reticle win.

Once again, only if the wind allows. David Tubb can't do it every time in wind, nobody else can either, including Hodnett and everyone he's trained, from many countries. Nobody consistently dopes mucho wind, ever, no matter what equipment or bullets they have.

But if you shoot a lot, at the same distances you commonly take critters at, the wind becomes a lot less difficult than you're making it out to be... Especially with a reticle that matches your turrets, coupled with a solid zero....

Tanner

This.

Turrets are more precise and "funner", but where I hunt, shot presentations on bucks are often quick, even at longer ranges, so I just dial up to 9-10x max power and wait. If you know the approximate ranges of landmarks, the dots will let you connect on vitals pretty fast. We hunt wide pipeline ROW's around here and good bucks are often just strolling across, maybe pausing for a second or two to look around. Have to be ready and be quick. In open country, I could see a turret being used more often.

JG, I was shooting a new rifle the other day at 400 yards. Tried to get out of the wind(doing load work-up...) so I went to a spot down in a fairly deep creek bottom.

Wind at my shooting position was R-L quartering towards me. When I walked out to check the target the wind was swirling in the opposite direction.

I notice the same thing once in awhile if I have surveyors tape placed near the target. No way in hell to accurately predict it on certain days.

Shhh Tanner!

We were about to find out how much it costs to hunt there and see some pictures of somebody else's deer mounted in their den...

David

Great point on the wind flags, and once again SamO, agree 100%. I'm not worth a crap as a wind doper. Gusting/swirling 20+mph wind will make a fool out of the best of the best. Take away the wind and it gets rather easy, even for me.

Leupie 6x42MQ....

so with dots, a little wind.... and a tweener yardage.... you have no part of the reticle on the target?

Gap shooting dots AND wind sounds like a super way to make hits....

Dots may be a little faster..... but just like IDPA.... you can't miss fast enough to win. It ain't about making the fastest hit.... it's about making the right hit.... unless you're gunning an ÜBER Mag and have Hack to back you up...

No part of the reticle is on intended point of impact.

Dot's are just a reference point for hold over.

Shoot with them enough and they become even easier to use.

Things get too complicated horizontally otherwise we would have sideways dots.... lead is where practice comes into play.

Running shots and wind require more than twisting turrets.

I practiced and practiced out to 550 yards in the month before hunting 2014. It took 3 rifles: 260 with IOR, 260 with Leupold CDS, and 7mmRM with Sightron SIII. The 7mmRemMag won.

I hunted for 5 days using a Leica 1600 rangefinder and a Sightron riflescope with turrets.

Then I filled my mule buck and antelope buck tags both at 50 yards.

In 2015 I will practice at long range again.
My favorite scope is a Leupold CDS VX3 3.5x10x40. I have a number of them. If there is anything better than that scope for hunting, it would be wasted on me.

Rocks are pretty simple too.... practicing with one makes it much easier to pound nails with one.... but it still doesn't make it the right tool. Practice with a BDC turret makes it very easy to hit stuff.... even in moderate wind... and it's just as fast when practiced up.

If dots are simply for holdover..... and you have no "horizontal dots".... how do you A: KNOW your hold is correct?
B: KNOW where the bullet is aimed?
Close enough is usually good enough.... till it's not.... but hey, Hack has spare time and a .44.

You are absolutely correct on the running shots and wind.... but I've shot with 100's of guys in the wind..... and I'm headed out today in 10-15 MPH rainy winds to do it again. I've never, in 40 years, seems somebody legitimately practice running shots, especially with a high powered rifle. Do you?

How many guys that run turrets EVER advocate taking a running shot that requires use of the turret? I've read thousands of posts on LRH right here in my dozen plus years on the fire... and I don't recall a single account of someone taking a 450 yard running shot after spinning dope in the turret. But more than one guy with "dots" has made that incredibly low percentage shot.... so that's ethical?

Will Leupold install a M5 turret on a VX-6 or VX-3?

I think I shot at a running antelope buck at ~~450 yards. I aimed 20 feet in front of him and dust flew up 40 feet behind him. The guys I was with were laughing at me.

I did that once on a big ole 80's class B&C 'Lope in that was running does in NM in a 50mph crosswind, with my .264 Win Mg.
Damn thing never even knew anyone had fired on him, and my hunting buddies had a good laugh at my expense. Finally got him with a 300 yard shot later that evening when he was too tuckered out run to does anymore.