I need to see if Mule Deer has done a review of the optics here..

For those who don't know about them, they are a Tasco made scope that SWFA has a sole source contract with.. And they track well, but are much lower priced than companies tracking scopes... So the question is how's the optical quality vs. say a Leupold VX3

I have owned and used both a 3x9 SS and a VX3; would rate the SS glass on par with the VX3; YMMV. Wish the SS had AO; it had a certain amount of parallax I could not get rid of or I would have kept it.

I think it's incorrect to say they are made by Tasco. They USED to be. Don't think that's the case anymore.

They now have an "HD" lineup that costs more and is definitely made by someone else than their regular line. So, OP, you'll need to be more specific with your question. That said, I'm interested in the results of the thread as well.

Only the name " Super Sniper " was bought by SWFA. Manufacture has nothing to do with Tasco. Classic and HD's are made by two different companies altogether.

The fixed power SS scopes I've looked through were not on par with a VX-3 for clarity & brightness

I got a 3-9 HD for Christmas and I am not too impressed with the optical clarity. I only looked at it briefly, but I think the glass is on par with a Weaver T24. I think it may end up in the classifieds before I mount it.

Either is the 3-9. No way it is any where close to a VX3 to my eyes.

I have several older Leupolds and one VX2 and the SS is not close. Plus the SS is a very heavy scope. At least the 3x9 I had was so I sold it.

Jim

you buy a SS scope because of the mechanical reliability. I say don't worry about the glass. Frankly if a scope has elite 3200 quality optics and adjustments as good as nightforce I would buy it all day long.

Mechanical function is vastly more important than "glass", and those who use their stuff know this.

The 3-9x SS is absolutely on par with a VX2 optically. Have seen several dozen, have had them side by side, have measured them in direct comparison. Most can not tell the difference between the VX3's.

I never felt wanting with mine - even well past sane shooting hours.

I have a ss 3x15, and a 3x9 hd. The glass is very good in both. They are clear and let you see long into the dusk. I compared them to my vari x ii on deer at well past shooting light and could tell no difference in brightness, or clarity. Buy with confidence.

Ditto. I've sat with my 6X SS until lights out at the range. The optics are on par with a VX3 to my eyes.Actually I think it's better than my 2.5-8 Leupolds. That's right up until sane shooting ends

I find it clearer and sharper at 600 yards than my 6x36.

So.. If they aren't made by Tasco, it would be interesting if they are made the same way - sounds like they track well so maybe they are...

Glass is and isn't important... Depends on the guy using it...

If you spin it's probably less.

I'm not a glass geek, but to me te SWFA are optically on par with the Leupold MK4's I sold off.

I'd say the SWFA scopes are kind of like the Glock of the optics world. Functional, durable, and well priced.

You Cross-eyed STUPID Fhuqkers that must guess...assuredly will. Congratulations?!?

The Fixed Fhuqkers smoke EVERYTHING Reupold V2 and V3 in optical splendor,if only for starters. Hint.

Though in fairness and as has been mentioned prior,the "view" is but a small piece of the puzzle and amongst the least that bear fruit. Re-hint.

You Drooling Dumbfhuqks and your never fhuqking ending Cluelessness,are a fhuqking hoot! Wow +P+! Few things funnier,than a herd of Turd Polishing Dumbfhuqks,waxing eloquent on their Dumbfhuqkery...by simply doing their "best".

A used Fixed Fhuqker will hang with a NIB Reupold Mk4's optical "splendor" and then some. Hint.

Pardon my having them all and then some. Hint.







If only for starters.

Hint..................

splendid assortment of optical splendor.

Personally I've never owned a SS, I looked through a couple at the range and they ones I saw were less than impressive, but I'm starting to wonder if the owners just didn't bother cleaning then ... Who knows.

Looking at SWFA's site the HD SS's cost just as much as Leupolds do, but half of what a NXS / ATACS costs....

Someone here said the HD's aren't made in the same place. Are they the same mechanical quality as the standard SWFA SS scopes?

Tasco never MADE anything... they were strictly a marketing company, and had manufacturing of their lines farmed out to a multitude of companies...

as far as optic quality.. I can only speak on the one example I picked up... a 12x... bought it on the basis of Schtick always talking them up... and got a thumbs up from Montana Marine on them...

optical quality to me is if I can see out of them... a bunch of big buck scopes from a multitude of manufacturers, I can't see out of worth a damned... its not that I question their "optical quality"... its just I don't have perfect eye sight....

I was always able to see out of a Tasco it seemed....the Super Sniper I have, I can see better out of it than similar Leupold.....

I can definitely see thru mine, better than a Nightforce and a high end Zeiss a gentleman had at the range... wanting to look at mine, and let me compare thru his...

he drew the same conclusions and about Schitt when I told him what I paid for it...

proof is in the pudding... and you don't see a lot of guys bad mouthing them, contrary to a lot of other scopes...

Dang, I wish I had 1/4 of the gear Stick posts photos of, and I'm pretty sure, in fact I'm certain that what he shows is but a fraction of what he owns.

As with all optics, quality and price are correlated.

And that, dear friends, just sold me a SWFA.

I hate Glocks

I would too if I lived in a state that limited magazine capacity.

O.K., I'll interpret again for the homunculus from up north. Wow, he means well. He really does.

I've found over the years that you can ask people for advice on a product, but it REALLY helps if you actually go get that item and use it yourself.

I understand that people don't want to spend money for something only to discover they did not like it. But sometimes you simply have to take that chance. Like most things in life it's a calculated risk.

This clears up volumes of speculation and uncertainty.

Since we're trying to be more articulate..and thank you for that.

1) if 10+ year old designs can create solid tracking scopes... At a lower price than the high end glass... Why haven't the middle to high end tier guys done so.

2) I seriously doubt SWFA has the proffessional optical resources (people, programs, ...) that Leupold does, and others do that are "specifying" the glass for thier scopes. So I would never expected SS scopes to be compatible to eyebox, and other resulting optical system performance characteristics...

3) and the real question - Can a group that doesn't make anything (they outsource) reach the same quality... It's interesting given quality is not exactly objective (it's very subjective).

Sticking to facts-
SS prices have gone up to match Leupold in thier HD series...
Night force has created a lower end line to compete with Leupold
My guess is Leupold will come out with a better tracking mechanism... In which case they will come out on top again.

Market dynamics... I like Leupolds due to the weight, but it's NOT unreasonable to say that tracking is becoming one dimension of the "product distinctive" ground ... Optical system performance and weight are the other two.

As I said - Spinners put tracking on top, Non-spinners often put weight and Optics (pleasure in good glass isn't going away).

LOL -- that is a great interpretation. You should be a judge.

Scott that's not the issue as I have M&P that holds 15
A Glock is like a club in my hand so I guess it's a good comparison

Bought 4, 2 SS 6 X and 2 1 X 4 no regrets!

'22,

I seen a scope.

Once...........(grin)















TwatCooter,

Ain't it funnier than fhuqk,that someone as fhuqking STUPID as you...can't even fhuqking spell "proffessional". "Thier" is a nice touch too,you Drooling Dumbfhuqk. Bless your heart. Laughing!

The ONLY thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination,which has been an obvious constant since day one,so you really needn't do your best and prove same obliviously,over and over again. Hint. Laughing!

The sooner you shut the fhuqk up,take notes and apply same...the faster you've a chance to garner your FIRST fhuqking clue. Hint.

Texan,ain'tcha'?!? You run around hoppin' fences tryin' to eye-fhuqk the World through your scope. Dangle some pics,it WILL be fhuqking funny!

Laughing!

A scope is a container for crosshairs,until same is needed to put direction on a boolit. Google it. Hint.

You've been led to water.

Thank me later.

Laughing!.................















'Clark,

Variables are an EASY pass...no matter who makes 'em.

Hint.................















TheBitchingSniveler,

Ain't it a right proper Dichotomy,that though your Delusions grant you the grandiose supposition that you THINK you have a clue...while the only fhuqking time you connect a dot,is when you cite what I've said. Plagiarism does you MANY favors. Laughing!

Bless your heart and here's to your best efforts. At least Imagination and Pretend are priced within your means,so you can afford to "contribute".

Laughing!..............
















'NH,

I get this day in and day out,all day and every fhuqking day and it's never not funny. I've had 20 guys in a room gawking a whiteboard,as I've explained what do what and then roll tape to corroborate what happened and more importantly WHY. While some will get more outta same than others,NOONE will get as much as with the first yank on the trigger and the more folks THINK they fhuqking "know"...the more they get outta that first poke.(grin)

It is simply fhuqking amazing,how CLUELESS 99.9999% are,when it comes to something sooooooooooooo amazingly simplistic as arranging POA/POI intersections. Now the most humorous part is,that it don't take a 2500yd poke in this morning's conditions(blowin' 'bout 27mph from the NE),to connect them dots. Sighting in a rifle with a new scope in 2 pokes and then crushing schit on shot #3 at 500yds+++,do get folks attention. Physics and facts is right handy knowed quantities,from which to delve.(grin)

Glass REALLY fhuqks folks up,because NOONE has a fhuqking clue on what matters and more importantly why. I really enjoy watching Dumbfhuqkers chase their tails! I've puked more scopes,than folks could begin to fathom and have long delighted in the approach of setting them on a stump and shooting same,so noone else would have to suffer like woe(s). Always figured I was doing the World countless favors,in such an approach and still delight in it,whether bino,spotter,camera lenses,scope,etc.(grin) When it's time to move on,count your losses,be grateful for the insight and choogle. BFD,it happens and WILL happen again. Chock it up to experience,note trends and procure wares armed with the intel,to circumvent similar fate(s). A guy makes his own "luck". Hint.(grin)

The biggest piece of fhuqking schit scope I've been forced to suffer is a Nightfarce BEAST. Whatta fhuqking gawwdamned joke that turd is! The only thing that POS was missing,was a fhuqking back-up alarm,propellor and a blinking light. FUNNY schit!



Schit is as easy as one let's it be. The 6x42MQ connects the most dots and by a vast margin. It has the brightness due mechanics,it has ample eye-relief(though shy of a 6x42 Reupold just like everything else in the World),it's tracking is straight up fhuqking AMAZING,it's adjustment latitude is perhaps even Amazinger,it's reticle foolproof,it's turrets being more tactile and stubborn in their ability to stay put than the MOA version(s) and it's ability to fend atmospherics/rugged ABUSE is totally offa the fhuqking charts.


If only for starters.

For them Stupid Fhuqks that's afeared to touch a turret,the windshield is without equal and tosses 10Mil/36MOA of option,in easily distinguished breakdowns,which will thread countless needles.

[bleep] BDC's,CDS and all the other Jerry Lewis Telethon bullschit that's "endorsed" by the countless Clueless Fhuqks. Pass an etched reticle,that subtends as intended and the option of dialin' or slidin'.

Very easy to arrange a hasty 700yds of data to stare you in the face,even on an 18" Wylde Middie with 75HPBT's at 2800fps. With a 200yd Illuminati fixed subtension zero,there's over 42Mils of options remaining on the table. Hint.




Hardly "daunting" to double that distance and it's data,on say a RSS of alter hue. Simply input however/whatever you see first,as per the scenario's demands. It's a right proper mindfhuqk for these Clueless sorts,to poke in 1/3 on the erector and 2/3 on the reticle,for 100% ringin' da' bell.(grin)



Add a zero-stop to Boobproof the works when loaned out and suddenly one is fresh fhuqking outta excuses.

It takes (1) on the Illuminati. Hint.



A pair on a Fixed Fhuqker. Hint.



Better go wrench on my crummy and see if I can make the bed stay put,or I'd touch on more than a few other "nuances".......................(grin)














'slayer,

You suck a mean ass you Clueless Fhuqk.

Congratulations?!?

Don't let the cat get your tongue,nor the couch your kchunt.

Laughing!..................















'george,

I've never lost a bet big enough,to be forced to suffer a Grock...and my fingers are crossed,that my luck stays that course..............















kk',

MQ or MOA? Pics?

Thoughts?

I still buy used Montuckys that "don't shoot" and Fixed Fhuqkers that "don't track"........................(grin)

I own a few Glocks and hear what Shane was saying. You can geek out on handguns ad infinitum, and I've done a bit of that myself, but in the end you aren't likely to beat the combo of reliability, quality, and "git 'er done" of a Glock at a rather amazing price point. Besides my HANDS are kinda blocky!

I was already plotting a fixed 6 for the AR I built this winter (currently sports a Leup), so I could start to suss out if a much more expensive SWFA might be the scope for my next bolt gun build, but Shane's comment seals it.

Because they are run by clueless dimwits, their reps know less about using their optics in the field than some motivated 12 year olds, and 99.99% of hunters have no clue as to the technical side of guns/optics. This thread so eloquently attests to that.





...


You have no clue what you are talking about.







Yes they can, and yes they do. Quality of an aiming device is "subjective"?

Do you actually shoot?









SS prices have not "gone up", and nothing Leupold makes matches an SS as an aiming device.

Nightforce has not created a "lower end line", and they are not trying to compete with Leupold.

Leupold will not fix their scopes, for the reason I stated above.







Everyone should put zero retention and ability to fend abuse- durability and reliability above everything else. It's an aiming device.

Big Stick, I just giggle (I know that's what you want from us minions) every time you change someone's name or gender. It's so cute and so, fifth grade. You crack me up you kidder you.

How many of the top rifle shooters in the World use SWFA SS scopes? I would think that if durability and reliability are the most important traits, every top shot would be using them.

I don't know squat about the top shooters in the world, except for visiting with D Tubb very occasionally, but I do know that of approximately 140 hunters we've had in camp over the years, not one has shown up with a SS anything. There have been a very few NF, a very few Zeiss' of various models, a few S&B's, quite a few Swaro's, and loads of Leupy something or other.

This the heart of your issue...misinformation...which leads you to incorrect conclusions/assumptions.

Who's going to pay them to shoot it, and how much..... is the most important trait to "pro's".

Is the Nike driver Rory hits the same one I can buy in the pro shop?

You saw it yourself...... on your pard's fancy scope testy thingy.... the SS tracks with the best of them..... for 300 clams.

We twisted the schitt of of several VX6s..... an old VX2.... a way old Vari-X III, and an LRHS today...... they all worked.... and they're all still sighted in. It's a Festivus Miracle!

The answer is that not one top shooter uses them.

How many use another scope that lists for 300 bucks?

I doubt any of the "top shooters" use a NULA either. Nevertheless, I won't be selling mine any time soon.

You beat to that subject.... Facts are pretty nice.

It will be interesting to see if one or two guys will say the entire field of shooters are x, y, z

A group of some of the best shooters in the military that can quite literally use whatever scope that they want are using personally purchased SS 1-6x scopes because they stay zeroed... A whole bunch are using Nightforce, some are using Leopold's and it is a constant source of complaint, others are using S&B PSR's and they too are having problems.












1) Competition shooters that really are good are almost universally sponsored in some way. They shoot what they're offered. Not so good shooters generally mimic what the "Pro's" are shooting.


2) Competitors that shoot in field or sniper matches want certain features. SWFA SS scopes are simple and robust optics that lack extraneous features. There are no reticle options, little to no options between mil and MOA, and no zero stops. None of those things really matter to a hunter.





It still is interesting that people think zero retention, reliability and durability are not the most important traits of an AIMING DEVICE.

Spotshooter,


How did you start the thread asking questions.... To now giving answers...?

Easy - I tend to started off by assuming That I don't know everything and could be wrong...

None of my staple items ( F-250, Glock, Ruger, Rem 700, SWFA, Vortex, Husqvarna......) are 'world class', but they work for me.

Besides the great pricing/function/durability, two other big things I like about the SWFA are the rear-parallax (perfect for a southpaw), and the huge amount of elevation travel.

I don't know the details on grading glass, but I've had no trouble seeing and holding on a 6" target at a mile when there is no mirage, using the 12X. Hitting it is another matter altogether....lol

Uh oh, looks like you've ruffled Bear Grylls' feathers.

Now THAT'S funny...

I was about to be really, really impressed and ask you when you last won at Perry while shooting for the Marine rifle team, then the last sentence.....

Just going from what Form says they are a successful and well-liked military sniping scope. Those guys know a thing or two about what works in the field, I suspect.

Whether shooters are sponsored or not is meaningless.

A shooter in open competition is going to use the equipment that will best help him to win. I don't know anyone who uses inferior equipment because it was free. Fuqking rediculous

If a scope is head and shoulders above what is available, especially in the departments of click value, zero retention, and tracking, it's price doesn't mean schidt. If it costs 25¢ or 25K the best shooters would be using it because they care about hitting what they shoot at.

I'm not saying they don't know a good deal of stuff I don't ....

I'm still poking around to learn more about SWFA... Looks like the make 9 million in revenue, and have between 15-200 employees'... I still haven't found out if they have a optics testing lab.. I would assume they do.

Kind of hoped some of our SS guys could have answered that... Again still try'ing to learn stuff on the subject before I start dropping coin.

They're not dubbed "Best in the World," for nuttin'!

Ridiculous is not a banned word. You don't have to get cute in spelling it to get it through the [bleep] filter.

Hear ya, but but when I looked the other day, the fixed 6 was only $299. Figure it'd get snapped up in the classifieds for $200 easy.... so $100 risked and you can see for yourself!

I have the perfect rifle to play with one on. Fast twist heavy-ish barreled AR15.

For the LR boomer that's my next project the stakes go up considerably. The SWFA scope I'm I'm considering for THAT is $1300 minimum, more w/ illumination and if I'm not brainfarting, HD.

So, what are the Sigs of the optics world? I like Sigs.

Maybe Schmidt & Bender. See: http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-pm-II-riflescope.aspx

But hold on to your wallet.

What would you hope to learn from a "manufacturers" optics testing lab?

S&B would not be the Sig of the optics world. They are better than that.

I don't know. If you like them, I'll leave that comparison to you.

I did some training with State Dept owned Sig P228, I didn't care for them. The breechblock was roll-pinned in place, and the de-cocker was not good for a southpaw. I didn't really care for the DA then SA trigger function either.

The standard sniper scope for both the SEALS and the Army snipers is the Leupold.

If you look at the scopes used by the winners of the F class nationals they are almost all Nightforce scopes. If someone wants to post a list of the equipment used by the top 100 shooters let me know, I will send you the list.

So is what the best shooters use in competition. The best competition shooters use rifles I wouldn't lug around in the field, and they use loading methods that I wouldn't waste my time on.

Just like everything in life one can choose to do the best he possibly can or settle for mediocrity. I load for my big game rifles with the same or more care as I do for match rifles.

One who has a fuuking clue would do well to note what the best shooters use and conclude as to why.

McDonald's and Olive Garden is tops for plenty of dolts too.

Dude, you should probably get laid or something, you're not making sense. Maybe tonight you'll get lucky?

I understand enough about what the best shooters do (and why) to know that for my purposes, a lot of it is unnecessary. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to comment on it.

My purposes include shooting small groups and shooting steel at long range.

Fingers crossed for you tonight!!

Which crash helmet do you wear on your daily commute? Favorite brand of Nomex suit?

You know only a putz wouldn't use the same gear as the pro race drivers....

David

LMAO, I'm wondering who his pit crew is, and how many times he has to change tires on the way to work.....

Nothin better than a good Festivus Miracle. Makes me happy I called the Leupold Derangement Syndrome Hotline to get some group therapy.

No.

The 10X Leupold M3Ultra(renamed MkIV) was the initial scope packaged with the M24. Big Army might still have them but with the emphasis on urban sniping a gas gun (M110) and a variable get the nod. The USMC never used a Leupold. This is just what I've read.

Just in case we were in danger of running out of things to argue about.... while I certainly accept the premise that an aiming device has gotta be reliable, durable, and hold zero, I do hunt at first legal and last legal light routinely. In Oregon that a chronological 1/2 hour pre or post the sun cracking the theoretical horizon. I say that, because in reality, if you are a) in a valley, the sun will drop below YOUR horizon sometimes well before the theoretical sunset, b) there's huge trees soaking up light as well, and and c), by late blacktail season we are usually socked in with these very low, dense clouds that have have to be experienced to be really understood.

My point there is that by a chrono'd 1/2 hour after theoretical sunset, it can be DAMN dark. Yet still legal. Obviously one adjusts his hunting style and if inclined to wait it out, you find a spot where a very low-light shot would be ok (not LR, or cross canyon, for instance).

So the optical quality of an aiming device is something I've put considerable care into, at least on rigs that might see blacktail duty.

Which is my usual long way of saying this: I'm ordering up a fixed 6 SWFA. If it doesn't at least hang in there with other scopes I use, in very low light, then it's unlikely to make it onto a hunting rifle... as the scopes currently on those rifles have shown themselves to be adequate in the ruggedness, reliability, and zero-retention categories.

As much as I respect Form's data, and I don't think I'm alone in this, as long as a scope is working ok, I do have considerations beyond sheer ruggedness. Another is that I'm not putting a heavy scope on my Kimber or Rem mountain rifles anytime soon, either.

wondering if there as good as a huskema

So tell us what Leupold models and sizes our military uses?

Tell us more, what scope models does our military use?

http://www.shootingtimes.com/optics/optics_leupold_is_army_strong_021611/

The SEALS did use a Leupold Vari-X Mil-dot. They may use a different one now. Next time I see one I will ask him what they use.

I think that the Army's use of Leopold scopes is shown in a previous post.

You seem to be in the know, now I'm not sure.

Post a link, or tell us the specifics.

There are a huge number of scopes in military. No company owns it all but Leupold has the biggest share.

These are issue Rem 2010s for a JSOC SMU and have brand spankin new Nightforce ATACRS and the HK 417 has the Leupold 3-18 MK 6.



It is safe to say there are zero SWFA optic issued to US troops.

Sig makes (well, markets) their own optics. And everyone I have seen thus far has been impressive. They have been well priced as well.

I guess what you're saying is. If they aren't good enough for the boys. They probably ain't good enough for the FIRE.


Take care, Willie

Actually no, not that at all.

I think SWFA has some really decent scopes at the price point. Lots of guys have had good results and are happy.

The only thing I am saying is that SWFA scopes are not, to my knowledge, issued to our troops.

The exact scopes currently on my personal hunting rifles (Leupold VX-6 3-18x50mm) are also not, in any way, issued to our troops.

Lots of good optic these days and not all of them have been or are "issue" scopes.

And just because something is issued, doesn't mean it's any good either...

Yeah, the scope choices are enough to make a guy crazy. There sure is a lot of chatter about the SS scopes though.


Take care, Willie

John I believe what he has been saying is that guys he "works with" have been pulling off their "issued" scopes and replacing them with SS scopes. I'm sure he'll be more than happy to clarify this though.

A simple search tells me the USMC has used fixed 10X
scopes, such as the Unertl 10X until the early 2000's
the Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50 Police Marksman II LP, and the Leupold M3 10X.

Barring an obscure NG unit with pretty lax Command SOPs anyone replacing issued optic with SWFAs is headed to Article 15 land at minimum and Courts Martialville as a standard.

Tier 1 SMUs use what they are issued, period. Those lower on the food chain have even less flexibility.

I don't expect much clarification on this issue. Crickets are expected.

*chirp*

*chirp*

*chirp*

Conventional Army is generally Leupolds as that's what the weapons manufacturers supplied. Conventional Marines is S&B. Shooters in the Navy, AF, Marines and Army- Nightforce and S&B, with a small sampling of others for specific uses.

Of note- there are only two scope manufacturers that have been awarded contracts for optic specific competitions since 2001- S&B and Nightforce.









Article 15 for changing a scope....? I would stick to trying to convince people that Leupolds are "great" instead of trying to act like you know what military snipers do, as you have no idea what you are talking about.

John,


Neato "ATACRs" and "Leupold 3-18". Never seen those.... Give or take. All the 4-16x NF's I use say "MilSpec". So do the BEASTS.


Bet you had to do a lot of "recce" to snap those photos......






There have been at least three units/commands that have bought and deployed SWFA SS scopes. That's not to say they are common, they are not. They were bought to fill an urgent need do to failure of the issued optics in two of those, and because no other optic could fulfill the requirement in the third.

I did a few tours overseas and I know for a fact there were guys using personal optics and other parts on their issue guns. You could make the argument it was a fairly lax command climate in that one Company Commander asked for advice on both.
Big Army does have a bunch of regs on modifying issue weapons, but I don't remember to many people paying a whole lot of attention. If the weapon was "as issued" when turned in it was all good.

I wasn't "tier 1" but I knew several guys that went that route.

My brother bought a 16X SS sometime in the late 90's and the optical quality was good enough to spot California ground squirrels at 600-1000 yards. We weren't good enough to hit them, but we could see them.

Hang a pict pal. Gonna guess crickets on the picts. Love to see a 417

Those be the real deal on a predeployment work up for a JSOC SMU on high angle stuff and if you can't tell 4-16X50mm from 5-25X56mm that ain't my mistake.

Guessin works right up until it don't. Congrats on finding the Don't.

As to any recc I had to do it just entailed being there, if you get my drift.

DF,

Thanks for your input and service.

Times might have changed a bit under the current admin. When did you serve?

To note this is not a bashing of the SS scopes, just a little perspective on those optics and current issue use of same.

I retired in late 2013, but still keep in touch with a few guys in my last unit.

Gee, a 5-25... you don't say. And what about this new fangled 4-16x"50"mm...? Must be new and super secret.



Never seen a NightForce.









Though I needn't strap hang on pictures of other people's kit to feel like I'm in the game.

You seem to know a lot about it. When did you serve as a US military sniper?

Never ever ever, how about you, Formy???

It's been a few years since my 11B days, but as I remember somewhere there was a list of approved devices that could be used but not necessarily issued company wide or at all. It was either allowed or overlooked if a soldier purchased the optics for his own use. Seems like ACOGs were the hot item back then. Have no idea how things are now.

How true. Note the M9 pistol, which is a peice of overweight [bleep]

As if being a military sniper has anything to do with trigger time in rough conditions?

I'll bet between Burns and Boxer, Secnarshooter and many, many other in the fire, there's more trigger time than most military snipers living with rifles capable of long range hits under field (not NRA highpower) conditions.

11 years.











You've missed the conversation.

You would be very wrong...

Bahaha!

Thanks for quoting Burns - it’s worth seeing how full of schit that guy is from time to time.

Off the top of my head, the guys in my last platoon personally purchased ACOGs, a couple night vision setups, a Leupold CCO of one flavor or another (which wouldn’t hold zero, as I recall), Nightforce, Horus Vision, and a Trijicon variable for use on their issued weapons. Apparently we should have all been court martialed.

In my mind, there's a big difference between a world-class competiton rifle (F OR BR, or...?) and a practical long range field rifle.

One is a niche tool, the other is an all-arounder.

I wouldn't want a 40+ oz optic with 40X magnification. That is a niche optic where winners are decided by hundredths of an inch. Seem common sense to me that an SWFA SS scope would not be a contender in that world.

By the same token a world class competition rig wouldn't be very practical as a field rifle.

Well-said MM, couldn't agree more.

Personally, I like to see how accurate I can make my light rifles, for me it's fun and also useful for what I want out of a rifle.

All kidding aside. Admittedly there has been quite a spark of interest in these scopes. At least for me. How ever, being I may have been born at night. But it wasn't last night! I have to wonder if some of these guys that blow so hard about them. Might be on the take a little.


Take care, Willie

Form,

You seem to hang around with guys who have funny looking faces!

But I like them just the same. Grin.

Was that picture taken on the plains of Afghanistan?

Is that your technical in the background?

Same could be said about a lot of different products spoken about here at the Campfire.

Sir, if I wasn't so familiar with the way our gooberment operates. That would make me feel warm and fuzzy. But????? Just sayin.



Take care, Willie

RC,


Once again- the only Leupolds in that list that were actually tested for correct functioning is the 10x40mm M3 Ultra and 1.1-8x CQBSS. EVERY OTHER SINGLE ONE was included as a package with the rifle system it was attached to.


I get it, it's hard to understand how sniper weapon systems procurement works..... Give or take.

Though the Mark 4 12-40x60mm spotter is probably the best spotter I've used, all things considered.

I doubt if those Leupold models dominate F or BR competition shooting either.

In fairness, I never had any tracking issues with my Leupold MK4's. I had a 16X, 10X, and 3.5-10X.

My decision to go with the SWFA had to do with rear-parallax being far more friendly to a lefty, and the generous elevation travel.

But I honestly can't see a difference in the glass quality.

Formi,

Would you comment a little on rifle scopes used for "observation" by .mil marksmen?

I see a lot of written here about sniper scopes and hunting scopes but what I don't see is much info about "how" they are used. It's my understanding that a military marksman is likely to use his scope for aiming and observation. Observation thru the rifle scope might be for hours at a time for a marksman. Maybe with an observer or spotter. On the other hand, most hunters just need an aiming device. Observation is done with binos and spotting scope.

I think there is a big distinction between the two uses... both marksmen and longrange hunters need scopes that hold zero and have accurate and repeatable turrets, but marksmen also need their scope to double as an observation device.

Seems to me that SWFA scopes work as aiming devices, which is all that most hunters need. Whether or not they are suitable for .mil uses seems like a different topic.

Jason

reminds me of a political argument. Regardless of the number of posts that are made defending Leupold, there are an equal number of posts that question the integrity of their design and their quality control. We simply would not be having this conversation otherwise. They have the market whipped with their view through the scope, their eye relief, the reticle, the light weight, OTOH it seems that someone needs to tell the Leupold bean counters to invest some money in their VX-3, VX-6 lines the mainstay of the hunting community and make them bomb proof reliable. If they were $75 more in price but as reliable as the SWFA we would not be having this discussion.

Well said.

As usual, Burns is a BS laden huckster.....

Hows the rifle business John ?

LOL

Tony

A couple of things come to mind here - Leupold probably sells 10 times as many scopes as SS so we really can't use the number of anything between scope lines to "compare"...
As Form indicates the "failure rate" is however a good and compatible measure. Given these two it really comes down to economics of the "cost of repair" vs. the added cost to make them better... Those are at best educated guess economics...

If one were a LARGE optics company, I guess you could prototype new mechanicals for spinners and get them out there to test them.. This is why I asked about optic's labs - the same would be true of testing reliability. Many commercial dev. Labs have mechanical testing labs... To check for weaknesses in thier design... BTW I'm not talking about testing each scope, although that can be done as well.... The two problems being addressed are different.

Back to the original post, I am really happy with the optics quality on my 6x SS. I have put a number of rounds through it out to 300 (that is the length of my range) and shot two deer last night in fading light at just over 200 yards.

You can argue all that you want about Leupold being better or worse, but you will not find a Leupold for $300 that has the reliability and quality of the SS. If the price point was equal, then the comparisons would mean more. On the higher-end scopes of both companies, then it just flat comes down to failure rates and I am sure not liking what I read about Leupold.

I understand that Leupold stands behind their products very well, but that does you no good if you are in a position where the scope fails when it is needed.

The economics of that decision also include a sales/marketing component, and giving people what they want. People used to want an awesome warranty. That paradigm is starting to shift, and replacing crap that breaks is no longer good enough. The market is starting to demand scopes that just don't break, now that they see the Internet chatter about NF, SWFA, and the Bushnell Tactical line, and they realize that such a product is realistic to manufacture and offer at a reasonable price.

Yep. Leupold left a void, and free markets abhor a void. Put another way, Leup left a big ripe fruit just hanging there, and it got grabbed.

I mean think about it. With the level of market dominance they have/had, if 10,15 years ago they'd made it a corporate priority to make their scopes bombproof and with very precise, repeatable adjustments, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The SS scopes might not even exist or would be a curiosity at best. Same with Bushy Tactical. The mere fact that people who are absolute GEEKS about their gear are willing to put something labeled "Bushnell" or "Vortex" or a scope formerly a "Tasco" on their rifles speaks volumes. Performance matters.

OK...fine. As long as I don't have to carry something as big a the Hubble Telescope on my hunting rifle.

I'm not being argumentative. However, the market for the scopes you mentioned is not as large as one might assume by reading the internet forums.

Scout out the retailers. If there was a market for those types of scopes, they would carry a larger selection of them.

Ok Jordan, if you are very confident in what you say......what are Leupold's annual sales figures for the past 10 years. Are they on the decline, like you would suggest?

Leupold did add the CDS line and did a good job of making most of the hunters more than happy.

I wrote them about putting M2 turrets on the VX3 line... And glad they did. It. Mine track just fine.

There is "another" breed these days of "I want tactical" gear want-ta-bee's...

I've only two SWFA scopes, a 10X and a 16X and as expected the 10x is the clearer of the two but they both track beautifully.
The only other scope that I own in that price range that dials as well is a Weaver Tactical Grand Slam 2-10 Mil-Mil sold by Midway.
It's smaller with the 1" tube and a whole 2oz. lighter.
With the smaller tube, and being a variable, it doesn't have as much internal adjustment but has worked for my needs or will get a 20moa rail.

Sorry I can't give any feedback on a head to head comparison vs any of the more expensive scopes.
My pockets aren't as deep as some so I search for value rather than absolute best.

I am not sure why you are referring to numbers? The fact remains that a large vocal group believes Leupold's quality and reliability is in question while another large vocal group believes they are wonderful in all ways. My father always told me "where there is smoke there is fire" this is enough for the wise.

Snipers often do use their scopes for observing though mainly due to a lack of good binoculars and/or lack of understanding with how to use them.


Not going to get into TTPs, but missions, units and skill of the shooter will determine "how" they are used; rarely should they be staring through a scope.


As with a lot of hunters they need good binos and the knowledge with using them.

If they were a few oz. lighter and maybe a little shorter, the 6x MilQuad would be on all my rifles. Glass is better than it should be.

Roy, I guess baffling with BS would have be more correct than crickets.

As has been stated the Army and US Mil as whole have specific regulation prohibiting modification of issue weapons.

It obviously has happened in the past and a decade ago was more common.

Today's risk adverse command structures are much less tolerant of deviation and to be honest there are a bunch more optics being issued. Prv Snuffy Smith should most likely stick to the optic Uncle Sugar issued him rather than swapping out for the latest internet fad.

I posted pictures of a few issue guns and the guys who we pay to shoot them are as Tier One as it gets. They use exactly what they are issued. Period.

If I am wrong then it should be simple to post a picture from a recent deployment complete with Unit, optic that was replaced, who replaced it. As some think it is no big deal and an accepted practice there could be no repercussions from command.

This might just get the crickets.



Not Afghanistan but yes that is my truck.



Formy,

Post a picture of an issue optic being replaced with a SWFA. As you seem to think modifying issue weapons is no big deal give us the unit, date of picture, who was issued the weapon.

Expecting crickets but if I am wrong then I will eat the crow.

I think it is time to get right to the point.

With shooting, the most important part is the operator,
and not so much the optics.

I have a 12x mq, optically, I'd call it OK, but not great.

My opinion of them is that they are big and clunky looking, and heavy.

I much prefer the optics on my Zeiss and leupi vx-3s.

My 12x SS is on an extremely accurate 22/250, and it tracks like a hound on a rabbit trail. I will say that it IS impressive the way it tracks.

But where I deer hunt, a 200 yard zero is overkill, let alone twisting turrets.......

Now groundhog hunting with the 22/250 is a different story.

Tony

John you're a disgusting piece of schit.

Formi has answered all your bullschit, far more politely than you deserved. Over and over with the "expecting crickets" - now you want him to post a picture with unit, date of picture and who was issued the weapon?

No man I know would ask another man to pimp out his brothers in arms to prove a point. It's clear what you are.

David

It was quite clear who and what he was to many when he first appeared on the campfire...

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuHYIqKPQI4&sns=em [/video]

John asking him a "name rank serial number" type question is kind of silly don't you think ? I know I wouldn't answer it. I think the real question here should be " Why are these men (and maybe women too) replacing an issued optic if the issued optic is so fantastic " ? And apparently with their own funds ?

Yup.

"Quite clear".

Gonna hear the crickets.

If there is no big deal to moding issue weapons then lets see the pictures.

Fan boi gonna fan. I get it.

Them in the know play a bit different game.



Sort of proves the point, if you know the game.

You still unemployed ????

LOL


Tony

WTF!!! Are the fuggin scopes optically good? And do they spin as good as most of the elite, or not? I'm beginning to think that when some make a statement of understanding how to glass with binoculars. If along with the lunacy, are they capable of hitting a bull in the ass with a shovel!!


Take care, Willie

Being an fng to long range shooting I try to learn as much as I can from threads like this and I have learned a lot from Mr. Burns, albeit nothing shooting related. He is truly an island unto himself, so to speak.

Those that know the game would never request those IN the game to violate opsec/persec as you've asked.

Far from it.

Just pointing out that you've been an opportunistic POS and pretentious azzhole since day one. You've grown a thicker skin and shown a sense of humor since, I'll grant you that.

Thanks for the picture. I have a very similar built AR that I'm gonna try the 6x on so that pic is great to see. I will agree, it looks a little big & clunky.

You drinking again tonight?

I know "the game" your playing your playing all too well. What kind of piece of schit would demand someone post pictures of co-workers breaking rules on the internet? I can think of a dozen company policies that are ignored by all levels of employees in my company but I wouldn't post pictures with names, dates and addresses like you requested even if I hated them.

What a silly little bitch you are.


David

Quickly and easily I might add.

I LOVE THE OPTICS FORUM!

Hell Yea!

Fan Bois gonna Fan Boi.

The idea that anyone in today's .Mil is willy nilly swapping out the issued optic for a SWFA is so dumb only a moron infected with LDS would buy into it.

Congradulations, Fan Boi.

Rock on Fan Boi.

OPSEC, really??

The idea that some body is replacing open source optics with dog schit hardly constitutes a violation of OPSEC.

Now with Command SOPs and Army wide "Modified Issue Weapons" regs, yea that might just get your ass in a ringer.

Hence the reason that with all the knashing of teeth and whimper whining we are not going to see any one in a real unit sporting a SWFA optic.

Harsh but fair assesment.


It do rock.

John knows how to shoot. Either one or two years ago a group of long-range shooters gathered in Montana I believe. Among them was John Burns. He's pictured with a 3' round steel plate (the picture was posted on this board). He hit it 3 out of 3 times at 1760 yards, with a cross wind that was blowing (I may have this wrong) a steady 30 mph. He's been more than willing to answer any question I asked him for the entire time he's been on this board. Stick took an instant dislike to John and began to attack him in his own unique way, which of course attracted the Stickophants to join in and pile up on John.

However, despite the barbs slung his way you can't say John isn't one of the best marksmen you've seen. Are some better? I don't know. I'm not good enough to criticize anyone's shooting skills. I know Stick is damned good. A while back, after getting some information on his shooting habits from people who know him, I estimated that he's very likely shot over a million rounds in the last 30 years. He routinely lays out a dozen rifles he's been shooting that day. He shoots them all, testing and finding the best loads, etc. His photos have more rifles in them than I own.

But, back to John; hitting a 3' round steel plate, 3 times out of 3 shots at 1760 yards in a high crosswind ain't luck and John doesn't guess either. He doesn't receive the credit he deserves as a marksman because some posters had a problem with the shooting system he was selling. If you don't like his rifle, scope and custom loaded ammunition tailored to that rifle, don't buy it.

Ah sheit, who really cares who's d ick is biggest.


Take care, Willie

Well if at the end of the day your Dick is actually biggest then I guess there is that.

Just Sayin,

BFD! Magdood. I couldn't care less what he has done shooting wise. From the majority of the posts I have seen of JB's he brings little to the discussion other than how f'ing great he is and little more. This thread is a perfect example.

No where did Formid. claim that serving mil personnel were swapping SWFA scopes for work related equip. He was pretty clear they were purchasing SWFA SS scopes for personal weapons, the point being they could buy whatever they wanted, including Leupold, but instead found SWFA scopes to meet their needs over Loopy. Burns on the other hand created a straw man argument to distract from the real issue, and then basically accuses Formid. of lying about something he never said. Real class, and this from a guy who has a vested interest in Leupold equipment. Bias anyone?

For long range shooting and glass, I'll take advice from Formidilosus any day of the week. If I want a good laugh from an arrogant prick I'll just dial Johnny B. good and grab the jiffy pop.

Guessin is so silly.

Might want to actually read the posts in the thread and not come off like a retard.

Just sayin.

Myopic readers and thinkers. TFF

I think a day or two on the range with either of them would be enlightening.

Typical of anonymous swingin' dicks on the Internet who've never accomplished schidt in their pitiful and pathetic lives to try to run down someone who has.

Funny as fuuk!!!

Yessir, I just sit here in Mom's basement and watch videos of HALO jumps.

Yep, Touche! I get the retard for the day award. I haven't gone through this thread since it first started and should have checked the post instead of relying on post Christmas/holiday cheer suppressed memory. What I should have said was:

"BFD! Magdood. I couldn't care less what he has done shooting wise. From the majority of the posts I have seen of JB's he brings little to the discussion other than how f'ing great he is and not much else. This thread is a perfect example.

JBurns missed an opportunity that most professionals would have jumped at by getting the details from Formidilosus on what the problems were with the Luepold scopes and then goose Leupold to rectify the problem since he's a dealer. He could have helped fix a problem which would make for a better product for everyone, make a valuable contact, and increased his credentials here on the forums which in turn would have helped his business.

For long range shooting and glass, I'll take advice from Formidilosus any day of the week. If I want a good laugh from an arrogant prick I'll just dial Johnny B. good and grab the jiffy pop."

Agreed. I'd learn a lot from both. One would teach me how to shoot, the other would teach me how great his shyte is.

That's basically what you did post azzhole.

Perhaps you can point out where John Burns posted erroneous information. I don't believe he did, but I'd like to see you try and interpret one of his posts that you find wrong.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe EHG pointed out some image proof that there was some confusion in those three hits on that plate at the Ice Breaker Challenge....

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9640942/10

To clarify, my post wasn't directed at you but to all the other fuuk faces on this thread.

That rings kind of hollow, what with the respective answers to the question each of you asked the other about how long you'd been a US military sniper.

Yes, you do.

Wow! I waded through all these pages of bickering, trying to gleen which SS, etc to maybe top a LR play rig. While I don't know any of you from Adam's housecat, now we've got someone requesting photos and personal information, along with equipment details directly related to TTPs, of probable special operations personnel, on an open internet forum. So, instead of worrying about a scope, I'm head-scratching over if this JB cat's comments need forwarding to an SSO, as a potential eliciting attempt?

Anyhow, it'd be nice to get info w/o having to be subjected to the constant pecker measuring, like its a gay stripper bar up in here.

FWIW, I'm not sure what replaced them, but I know all of the last batch of NF5-25x56 got sent back to drmo, from at least one entire SF group. There's also a HUGE mix of optics in use at that level AND commander's exceptions to policy for damned near anything a team guy feels he needs for mission.

It's not about interpreting anything. Burns has the opportunity to advance the art of shooting(long range or otherwise)by passing along useful information, which is the whole point of the forums. But instead he chooses to go full rooster mode and drags perfectly good threads into the garbage pit.

I've had great success with the straight 6X with milquad and mil turrets.

Well over 1,000 rounds at this point on my .308. Can't find anything wrong with it.



Travis

4W, you're correct. A guy asks a simple question in regard to simple quality. To hear hands on reviews of a product. Only to put up with the dick measures, and frustrated wana be human SUPER SNIPERS. LMAO Only on the fuggin internet.



Take care, Willie

THANKS


Take care, Willie

Thanks Travis. Sincerely...thank you.

Does anyone here actually have a broken Leupold.... currently?

If so..... why not ship it to a couple other guys here for verification of its phuqedupedness?

Ohhhhhh..... that's right..... you already sent it back for repair..... "Got it back in two weeks".....

I'd like to buy the next "titis-up" or "poor tracking" Leupold that you're getting ready to send back..... just to see WTF.

Travis, would you consider that particular scope OK for hunting in big timber? I have a rifle I like to take both the range and hunt with. My only concern is if the reticle is heavy enough for 48 year old reasonable good eyes in the big woods at near dark.

Then post the correct information.

Scroll up a little bit. 32_20fan posted a link.

I think I have one that isn't tracking properly. Meaning MOA does not = MOA.

But I have no desire to sell it. I'm just going to get it corrected.



Dave

I tend to avoid trees but I have no problem seeing the reticle in low light. I'm 38. And typically drunk.




Dave

JHC! Who gives a flying phuuck if he did or didn't ...or if his dick hit the moon or the back of your throat
A guy asks if the glass on a scope is good and people are debating sniper wares and camp Perry shoots...what's next who would win in a quick draw competition standing backwards sighting with a mirror?

You tell me that it's not about interpreting anything...then you post your assessment, or interpretation, of JB's posts.

WOW!

I hope you get the information that you seek. Both Formidilosus and John Burns can give you very good information if you ask for it. Both will be very helpful. Both shoot way beyond my skill level, so I ask questions.

Just for clarification, this would in fact cause me to give a flying fugk.

To each his own.




Dave

Please kindly point out where I said anything about Leupold, anything about their sales figures, or anything about the last 10 years.

I was speaking in generalities not from the perspective of the scope maker, but the consumer, based on several forums I frequent. Scope makers tend to respond to the desires of the market, but there is lag time involved. There have been various trends over the past several decades in what the scope market wants, and scope makers have subsequently chased those trends- variable power scopes, maximum brightness, lightweight, wide magnification range, BDC reticles and turrets, lifetime no-fault warranty and fast service, target turrets, MOA/MOA and Mil/Mil, and now, durability and reliability.

It's already been posted, and it's old information.

That quote didn't specify that those personally-purchased scopes are going on their service rifles...

Thanks for that. Seems a cost effective way to add some good tracking, mil/mil glass.

so looking at the original question:



In all the many threads bickering about scopes on the Campfire, the best comment I have read is, "...a scope is an aiming device..." I'll add my own comment, it's not a camera lens, where ultimate image quality is valuable.

Sharpness, brightness may add to the pleasure of the experience, but ultimately it's gotta let you hit where you want.

So it's settled then.

SS scopes are good to go.

Almost as good as VX-2/3 was an ok answer for me.

I knew most of the rest.

Someone pointed out the fixed power SS are still cost low, and probably worth it if you spin.. Why I say if you spin? Leupolds have resale because they fix'em if they go bad so people value them highly... For good reason - low to no risk there at all...

I guess some of us don't calibrate costs as much as others, then again I don't put turrets on 22's... So I'm more of a practical shooter I guess.

I still like my Leupold CDS, I'll probably try a Nightforce ATACR, and maybe a SS this year...

if they were equal $$, SS6X or a loopy 6X FX3lr

for a tikka 260

Is this a question?





Dave

For my crude use I would take the FX3 6x42LR(or 6x36LR).

I don't shoot past 400-500 yards and prefer a scope that is smaller than the rifle.

I will never not love the 6X42 with LR reticle.

It covers almost everything in my opinion.





Clark

Tough too beat for a simple and effective big game hunting scope.

Not what I'm saying - you specifically asked for


1 picture
2 who the person is
3 date of picture
4 unit (don't know how you mean this - unit of scope or .mil unit person is member of - if the latter you really are oblivious)



If you don't see how stating "SFC Snuffy Smith changed out the optic on his issued sniper rifle here - November 7, 2004" wouldn't be a violation of OPSEC - I don't know what to say.

Then again - I've spent several thousand hours in a SCIF and am a little more used to making sure people don't put things out there that can identify them as partaking in a particular mission, location, date and time and with what equipment.

As I've come to expect from the fire, after 20 or so replies to any given topic...the rest is ego.

There are three to five posts here that directly answer your question...if you feel like shoveling through the manuer.

They're UBE.




Travis

folks seem to like the loopy

I had the fixed 6 vx3 along side the fixed 6 super chicken in night conditions and cannot tell a difference in optical quality. The super chicken is a lot of scope for $300

I find the fixed power SWFA scopes plenty good in terms of image quality for aiming. The Classics do exhibit some glare compared to the HD 3-9x and FX-3 under certain conditions but isn't a deal breaker especially given the price, tracking, and zero retention.

i've had an older 10X, but nothing in the fixed line up in 5 or 6 years.

I would agree. I've got an FX3 6x42 with M1 on my sheep rifle, and some SS scopes on my utility and play rifles...

Guys,I really appreciate this comparison. How do they compare in ease to get behind (eye box) and lack of tunnel vision?

Hell, even asking is the big hint.
You ever try to tell someone on the teams 'don't do that' or 'can't' or much of anything half the time, for that matter? This whole thread would stroke an SSO out.

Such and informed [bleep]. What makes you think Leupold would listen.

....so far they haven't. There is something very wrong when a $300 Jap scope outperforms practically everything they make. That is unless every owner of these SS scopes is flat out lying.

Don't think thats the case but. Rather than dividing ourselves lets make contact with Leupold.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that hiring "Tier One" guys to shoot/help promote your products does not make you an operator (or a military member) or provide you with any more qualifications w/r/t OPSEC than Hillary and her illegal server.

If you could get any model of MK 4 you wanted For the same price as any comparable variable SS HD. then which one would you pick.

I only want answer from people who have not recently measured their or anyone else's junk. In less it was Katie perry's then we will need full disclosure

Katie Perry has a penis?

Now it is an UBER thread!

The erector assembly matters.

I've read negative chatter about their product for years here and nothing seems to have changed. I also believe they are well aware of what is being said about their products on forums.

I hope not. Wouldn't go well with those world class hooters...

And for the record, I'm kind of digging my 6x Chicken MQ. Put it in a cut down 308 5R and bolted it in any ugly MagPul stock. The setup works like it's supposed to, bouncing around from 100 to 400 yds. Glass quality is not lacking.

Hey, dude! I was retard for a day yesterday. Don't be sticking me with the "Such and informed [bleep]" label for today, ya fuhger. I got enough on my platter already.

I hope not.

AkBob....guessing that was directed at maybe JB, and not me.....that end has gotten convaluted.

That mil quad might be a good fit for the next 5R AR I build.

You are correct sir. JB has a ton of shooting and hunting experience, and I hope he takes my hint in the good-hearted spirit it was intended. I think the thread (like many others) got a bit sidetracked. I'm not an operator but did 26 years in the AF and have done a good amount of operational planning, so I do know a bit of what I speak.

I have a 3-15 mil quad on a Tikka .223, but haven't shot it a bunch. I have two other SS' that will be mounted up shortly. As many have said, they don't cost a boatload and if you don't like them, the resale is very, very good. You're just a bit late now, but for next year....SWFA always has a really good Black Friday sale.

I don't have a huge comparison, but the SWFA scopes I have played with didn't compare to Leupold FXIII or 3s in terms of clarity. It may just be my personal vision though.

On the SWFA, the mil quad reticle is a lot of fun for a target or prairie dog rifle, but I think the reticle is a bit busy and thin for first or last light big game hunting.

I'm all about the FXIII or FX3 6x42 for my serious hunting rifles. I'll likely get more SWFA 6X42s, but doubt I will do much serious hunting with them for the reasons stated.

I don't know squat about tracking, but both scope models have stayed zeroed well for me even in the dreaded WA mounts. I did have one FX3 get knocked off somehow once, but it never happen again, and that was in a set of talley lightweights.

I killed 16 big game animals this last season, and my main rifle wears a FX3 6X42 LRD. No regrets.

Yep. Everyone's eyes are different. The point hits home at work every day. I've been selling scopes and firearms now for a year and a half. We sell to many people that have never looked through a scope before and they have no pre-conceived notions. I'll have them look through several brands in the same price range and you never know which one they will pick, though Vortex is chosen less often than Leupold, Nikon, Burris and Bushnell.

I forgot about the bedding block thing! That was a hoot.

FYI - if you are switching from Leupold to SS, you'll want to increase the mass of your bedding block to ensure proper scope creep counteraction, as SS have more Al in them than any of the Leupolds.

Alternatively you can paint on an extra layer of spray-tan so as to reflect less sunlight from your face down to your scope-tube. Or wear sunglasses .

PS - not mirrored sunglasses.

If you're serious..Yes, I do. youre more than welcome to it. Its been back twice, and is having issues again. 4.5-14LR with a MOA TT.

Shoot me a PM, let me know what you want for it....

Funny schit! The Crickett Queen took all her marbles and went home,after cypherin' that noone was in the market for Snake Oil. It's never not hilarious to watch the Lying Clueless Fhuqk try. Laughing!

Now Dogshooter thinks that a Reupold that rattles is skookum?!? Is there NO end to the fhuqking Stupidity of you Dumbfhuqks?!? Wow!

Yarded another Reupold 6x42 with M1's offa rifle the other day and poked on a 6x Mildot Fixed Fhuqker which smokes it in all regards,yet sucks compared to the 6x MQ version of same. The erector travel latitude,tracking and even a schit Mildot reticle,trumps any/all things Reupold can/will do to their 6x42 and I've prolly had a few of 'em.(grin)

Sneak Peek.



The Reupold 6x42's eye-relief cain't be touched and it remains the most Boomer Friendly container for crosshairs.

I enjoy that someone was giddy about Reupold MK4's in comparison and I've never shot with anyone,that prefers a MK4 over a Fixed Fhuqker. Fact is...there's lotsa Reupolds including MK4's sailing away,never to be seen again. I've got 'em in 6x M3,10x & 16x M1's,3.5-10x M1's,3.5-10x M3's and 4.5-14x M1's offa the top of my head,but am prolly forgetting a few. Just mighta shot a few others too. Only talking 100+ scopes. Hint.

The BABLR suffered a 3.5-10x MK4 M3 for a spell and it's trite erector travel was the bane.



Tough to suffer schit like that,with dozens of Fixed Fhuqkers surrounding it to extrapolate in kind. Hint.

Hey wait...is this the 6x42 Reupold that got yanked from above?!? Laughing!



Good to "know" that the MQ reticle cain't kill anything and is PETA approved. Laughing!

Never been tough to cypher,who shoots and who don't.

Hint......................

Great BLR. I had one painted almost exactly the same, but unfortunately, it went down the road before it was able to wear a 6X SS.

I just whacked two white-tailed does in fading light at over 200 yards with my ineffective, clear as mud, 6x SS.

I don't know how I could ever do that with such an inferior scope.

Big Stick, let me help you out there little buddy. It seems that you get so excited when you get to tickle the keyboard your little brain just gets ahead of your stubby meat whackers.


I hope this helps my friend. I know you make a concerted effort to let everybody on the forum know that you are much smarter than are they (we). I will continue to try to help in whatever way I can toward that end.

Now please, intentionally misspell my username, accuse me of whining and talk about my opposite gender genitalia. That always makes me laugh. Have a great day my friend.

Lil Fish,

Have you got any used 4.5-14X50mm of the side focus variety that you want to swap for a 6X Super Chicken. Willing to trade straight across, used Leupold for NIB 6X super Chicken with reticle of your choice.

Love and kisses
John

My most recent one- Leupold did fix it- How the he!! does the whole windage turret fall completely off when unscrewing the cap??

This was a VX3

dennisinaz,

That happened with a new Burris Signature 8-32X with me.

I think some already said that the warranty thing is nice if you're having failures where you can afford to send the scope back and wait.

My few failures occurred at places like Kodiak Island, where the postal service was 50 miles way...

That fact escapes many who have blind love for products with "great warranties" .....Why folks brag about defective products and premature breakage is beyond me...

SS (aka super chicken ...lol) have lifetime manf. Defect warranty FOR the original owner... Non transferable.

So if you don't sell it you have some recourse if it breaks...

Leupold is the same, but it's transferable... So they have great resale value.

At least stick agreed the optical eye box is better on Leupold.... Someone will have to translate the rest of what he said.

the plus delta so far...


Fixed power scopes
Weight Leupold is lighter..
Cost - SS is cheaper
Tracking - SS takes it here
Warranty - Same if you are the original owner
Resale - Leupold
Glass quality - probably Leupold .. At least in the eye box

Variable power scopes -
Weight - Leupold
Cost - pretty much the same
Tracking - SS seems to be ahead
Warranty - Same if you are the original owner
Resale - Leupold
Glass quality - Not sure, Leupold probably

Reticles... Well still checking.. However this is personal preference, and use based value...

I used to think seeing super chicken's on 22's meant a mental disorder... But now I realize the lower resale would mean rotating scopes.
One still has to wonder WTH do spinners provide on a 22... HINT... (Had to say it, Couldn't help it)....

For my purposes a fixed spinner doesn't make good sense..
I'm still gonna try a SS at some point, but frankly I can put a bushy elite 4200 variable on a pdog gun cheaper than a Super chicken variable and get tracking and great glass...

So if fixed isn't your game, SS might not be the best deal.

BTW - we now have a "Dogshooter" member.. .. Not me..

Seen that. Elevation turret on a friends 1.5-5X after a couple hundred 375 rounds.

Got this from the owners manual of one of my SS scopes , under "warranty":

"The SS rifle scope line is backed by a very simple lifetime warranty: if your SS rifle scope
ever becomes damaged or defective, under normal use, we will repair or replace it.
That’s all there is to it! No registration card or proof of purchase needed. It doesn’t
even matter if you are the first or tenth owner, you can be confident your purchase is
backed by the same great service and guarantee as the day it left the factory.
The SS warranty does not cover loss, theft or intentional damage."

So, in other words, don't pound in your tent stakes with it. That sounds like a fool-proof warranty to me. One less for Leupold dominance.

They provide the ability to put your bullet on target regardless of range or wind.

I don't like to brag as I am considerably more modest than most people, but this rimfire has probably killed more in one month, that most will in two decades.



Good luck using holdover and Kentucky windage to replicate this on the slaughter fields.





Travis

Their warranty is excellent.




Travis

Where happened to their stripes?

Ass shots count half.

Ass shots are my favorite.

WTF?



Dave

That's that Montana thing. Unless you look at a map, you think it Brazil.

I know because Carol and I went to Montana to see Glacier. There wasn't one and the Indian (dot) guy at the motel with the Hillary bumper sticker said it was the global warming.

At 299 a pop, everybody should try one...

'hooper,

The BABLR is a right proper Vulcan MindFhuqk and noone sees it coming. Was letting a pard bang around with it at the 1200yd line the other day and he kept shakin' his head,tryin' to cypher how in THE fhuqk,he was doin'...what he was doin'.

Might just be my FAVORITE Sleeper and I do love me some Sleepers............(grin)















TheBitchingSniveler,

You suck a mean ass and are a "force" to be reckoned with,for heel nippin' and scrap chasin'. Laughing!

Congratulations?!?

At least Imagination and Pretend are free,so you can "afford" to "contribute". Laughing!

PLEASE find me "mistaken",as I assure you,it WILL be fhuqking funny. Hint.

Bless your heart...............















JohnSquirms,

This one ALMOST fhuqking made it through 20rds of BRUTAL recoil on a Flyin' Lion in 5.56 squirtin' 75's,before it puked. Almost.

Yet another 4.5-14x sidefocus 30mm piece of fhuqking schit Reupold Musical Instrument. I know..I know,you were "issued" one as a Mall Ninja Marine and kicked in alotta outhouse doors with same. Laughing!



Have yet to see one in either 1" or 30mm,non-A/O,A/O or sidefocus,that'd track or last worth a fhuqk.

Like you could afford a Fixed Fhuqker?

Bless your heart............
















'naz,

Do broken reticles "count"?

How 'bout A/O rattlin'?

BT/DT.............















'Walter,

It's never a bad thing to deal with a Manufacturer that's comfy in backing their wares. Though it is farrrrrrr more comfy dealing with a Manufacturer,that makes schit that takes a lick to start with.

Saw (4) Factory Fresh Reupolds puke in a single outing this year...none would track for even halfa fhuqk.

Few could begin to fathom the Reupold Mass Exodus that's transpired and all parties state same,in that rifle mannerisms greatly improved,with the shift to Fixed Fhuqkers. 'Course I'm only talking 100's of scopes in extrapolation.(grin)

I'd never go back to Kodiak without one.

Hint..............














'Finn,

The Reupold 6x42 is Legendary and for good reason. Never have failed a MK4 M1 Fixed Glass either,unless broken reticles "count".

Thanks for the memories...pass the Fixed Fhuqkers.

Mainly because I got 'em all.............(grin)















Twatshooter,

Your sheer and utter STUPIDITY,is without bounds. Congratulations?!?

I enjoy the HILARITY of a Drooling Dumbfhuqk who's never seen any of it,"offering" a "critique" upon same.

You Dumbfhuqks and your Imagination and it's Pretend.

Fhuqking Wow +P++!

Here's to the HILARITY of you doing your best............















'NH,

Seen zoom selectors freeze in place too and the temps weren't the issue.(grin)

BT/DT.............















'TCO,

You are gonna fhuqk her up,by using facts instead of Imagination and Pretend.

Just sayin'.............(grin)















'flave,

I always tell guys the same thing: "You'll LEARN more in an afternoon,gunning a brick of 22LR through a Skookum Rifle...than everything you "think" you "know" now".

Zero recoil,modest noise,eerie Precision,finite ability to see trace/impact and a CRASH Course in wind reading.

I hear good thangs about Olympic Class Springers too. It just might assist wind reading skills too,with a .010 BC at 600fps and a 1 ounce trigger.



Hint..................(grin)

I assume this means me as I like how you change people’s usernames so they are similar but somehow, supposedly, demeaning. It just makes me giggle. Does that make you “BitchingSniveler”? (See what I did there?). Just kidding, don’t get mad, I was only funning you.


Thanks for the “force” to be reckoned with comment. The suck mean ass was kind of harsh don’t you think? Oh well, I’ll take the good with the bad. I’m glad your thoughts of me could make you laugh.


I assume this is because of your determination of me being a “force” with which to be reckoned. So, thank you.


I agree. After all, the best things in life are free. I’m kind of flattered that you think I actually contribute. Actually, I take your constant advice of taking notes and applying the same.


You know I don’t try to find you mistaken. O.K., I guess I do occasionally on your communication efforts to the rest of us; but, in my defense, that is only to help you look even better than you are.


Ooooh, thank you. I’m touched. May your God bless and keep you Gilligan. (Hehehe, you see what I did there? You are my little buddy. Hence, Gilligan).

lil Fish,

I have been pretty busy picking up pop cans on the highway and have squirreled enough to make this deal work.

The 4.5-14 in your staged picture is a 40mm. I prefer the 50mm.

This is what it looks like in a field picture. That one is a Gen2 (VX III) with a decade plus of dialing and hard use. Never been back to Leupold.



As you have them all let's stick to the plan and stay with the 50mm.

What model 6X SS is your preference.

Love and Kisses
John

lil dick syndrome still rages I see

A question for you, what is your real world, honest assessment of the SS 6x fixed or any other SS scope as to lens view, tracking, zero retention, ruggedness etc.? Have you run a enough rounds under them to get a good feel for what they are? No sarcasm here, just want an honest opinion.

WTF?? Are you trying to de-rail the thread?

Dammit!! slipped again...


....sorry

What's funny is it wasn't that long ago and we were all building light "handy dandy" rifles and everyone was still looking for a bad Reupold.

I love the 6x MilQuad but it doesn't fit into my "do it all" category. I still like handy dandy and top them with Leupolds that have never failed shooting out to 300 yards or so.

If I want to shoot rocks a mile away then the SS it is. Or if I ever build another chunk. Or a 22 lr but I like my light rifles light.

And then again my cousin shoots his old vari XIII's with cheap dials screwed into the regular turrets on his 800 yard range. Maybe he's just lucky.

Larry-Poo, I double dog dare you -----> http://personality-testing.info/tests/NPI/ FYI I scored 6.

Must be a drag being you this time of year. Wouldn't your height (or lack thereof) make your days even shorter than that of the general population?

laffin'

14

Deflate &SBTO...

Cool - I was reading some old posts from Chris from SWFA... On him talking about the warranty.

Apparently it improved since then, that's pretty cool...

Thanks,

Ok you got me on that one.... But I was funning anyway.

I use the Leupold varmint reticle on my pdogs rigs with a 6.5-20x. So I use that for hold over... But it does have it's limits.

Some of you guys use loggin chain for wind flags ... So I get it.

TWR,



I still am. The six lug Weatherby Mark V arrived from Twisted Barrel where it was fluted. They sure offer lots of options. Without the scope and rings it weighs 5lb 7oz including a sling, twenty-six in barrel and a Terminator T2 brake on that. Tomorrow it goes out to get a salt bath nitride bath. This one uses a case holding a few more grains than a .264 Win Mag.

SuperCub,

We are twins. I also scored 6.

Scored a 6 also. That appears to roughly be the norm based on the trend graph.

Stick will never take that test, and even if he did he wouldn't tell you his score. :::laffin:::

6 for me, I guess that's a good thing?

Went to SWFA yesterday to determine for myself if Larry has a fuggin clue.
He does.

Looked at all SS models that I had not yet had the opportunity to finger fuq. Was impressed by some and left with another 1-4 classic needed for a 10/22.

The 3-15 with the DM reticle was really neat. Had I had a need for the power range, it would have come with me...and still may.
The MQ with the open center/dot was also unique and something I had not seen before.
The glass in these scopes is just fine and the price points are stupid affordable.

I scored 40 cause I'm better than all you guys

No it means you're a weak minded pusssy.........

Suppose he's skeered of a double dog dare?

Stick ain't skeered of anything.

41 here Beecchh!

Hey Dances with Sticks !

IIRC you spit swore out that the Beast from Nightforce was junk...

Not saying Junk is vague, but it subjective... So What the flip did ya mean, and what do you think about Night force...

BTW I'm not seeing any Bushnell elite on your gear either ... Hmmm.....

I scored a 25 which is horseschit because I'm better at modesty than most anybody.




Dave

TheBitchingSniveler,

Here's to the sweet "satisfactions" which must be your's,in being the gal that almost did sumptin',once.

Congratulations?!?

Bless your heart.

Laughing!..............















JohnSquirms,

You couldn't knock the "new" offa used pair of fhuqking boots.

Never seen a 50mm 4.5-14x. Laughing!






Pardon my being afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess...while you talk out your ass.

Again.

Bless your heart.............















'495,

I see you are all horned up,all over again.

Ain't it a fascinating constant,that the only thing you could offer in the first hand,is what a dick tastes like?!?

You "lucky" kchunt.

Bless your heart.............















'TCO,

John Squirms has never even seen one,but she'll happily lie about it and kick in an outhouse door with added "fury",to smooth it over.

Laughing!.............















TWR,

Light done right still has no equal and never will. Unfortunately them splendid parcels become more than a wee bit heavily compromised,when the ability to conjoin POA/POI intersections mechanically fails. Really don't matter what it weighs,when it rattles. Hint.

Adding farrrrrrrrrrrrr more robust glass to the equation,which also boasts tracking and repeatability that crushes Gold Rings,do not hurt the equation. Frost that equation with erector travel that is obscene and a windshield that will grant more "up" than 1" Reupold's erector after zero and the warm starts getting purty fhuqking fuzzy.

Often intellesting to schlep like platforms,launching like projectiles,with different glass and extrapolate in kind,with hot fhuqking barrels. Side by each forays,paint purty peectures.

I do it daily and the Montucky 6x Fixed Fhuqker is THE schnizzle,whether the spout is 18.5,21 or 22. One poke and folks is hooked,procuring same.

Seen it.

Hint...............















SuperKchunt,

Was you ever able to make the determination of which year it was,that you last stepped Outdoors?!?

Didn't think so.

You Whining Do Nothing Kchunts are a fhuqking hoot!

Bless your heart...........















Fredrica,

You was "telling" the masses about Reupold MK4's there for a minute...what happened?!?

Laughing!

I've never seen one.

Bless your heart.......................











Twatshooter,

Cheer up...you "got" yourself,by being fhuqking STUPID enough,to "think" you have a first fhuqking clue. Hint.

Never have seen a Reupold 6.5-20x in either 1" or 30mm hold zero,let alone track. Though on the brightside,their erector travel is dismal,eye-relief sucks ass and they are as dim as you.

Laughing.

At least Imagination and Pretend are priced within your means,so you can "afford" to "contribute".

Bless your heart...............















Ringmam,

Tough to get giddy about a fhuqking Weatherby that ain't a Howa or has more than (2) lugs. Hint.



Whether S/A or L/A mag constraints suck ass.

Hint...................





















'Hutch,

I don't know about poking said glass on a 10/22.



Hey wait...

Laughing!.............














Never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't. Nice to see The Paper Hat Brigade gunning for THE Crown in Kchuntfest 2016.

What were the "odds"?!?

Laughing!.............

Ditto.

I shot the day before yesterday with a 6X SS, a Leupold, and a Swaro.


They all sucked and I couldn't see anything with any of them.




I failed the IQ test....does that have anything to do with any of it?

Heavy
Mediocre resolution
Reticles that don't work well for my applications
Exposed oversize windage turret

I have not ever dialed any of them extensively because, for my use, the above traits are a deal killer. I don't have any reason to believe the SSs don't track and retain zero but then again I seem to have pretty good luck with my current optics setups.

I also posted this earlier in the thread if you missed it.





What would be your metric for "outperforms"?

Hunting?
Competition?
Military issue?
Posting the most rifles in a staged picture on the internet?



Dude you are off a dream world. I posted pictures of issued sniper rifles and the optics, all of which is open source.

The hows and the whys of how and why I shoot with active duty SMUs are not a part of the discussion but let us say I sure as schit didn't "hire" them.



lil fish,

So you do have some trading stock. Kewl!

Looks like most have never even been used in the field. My lucky day.

That old VX-III of mine sure has had a hard life. Here it is in a field picture from 2007. 700yd ram.



If this works out well I might just take the whole pack off your hands.

What model of 6X SS strikes your fancy?

Love and Kisses
John

the SWFA SS line is different than a full on optics company like leupold. They are the procurer and sole distributor and they spend no money promoting the scopes. I was once told by a guy that took a company public on the stock market that sold consumer goods that your product should cost 1/6th preferable to 1/10th the retail price. so the raw markup should be 6x to 10x. That sounds like a ton of markup but once you start dividing up all the costs I think it winds up being the retailer makes half the profit and the company that is procuring the product makes the other half.

with the SS line SWFA is both, they also spend no money promoting the scopes. as a result other companies cannot offer an equal product and be feasible. The SS line does have some downsides, some actually big ones. big easily moved turrets. tactical retcicles, FFP reticles in their lower powered scopes like the 3x9, The other is most of their stuff is mil based. which to this day no one has really made a good argument to me for. the mil people say use the reticle as a ruler. to that I say ever heard of the MOAR reticle? despite it all I did buy an SS scope but I only will use it for load development, all I care about is holding zero and accurate tracking. frankly the optics could be that of a steel tube weaver k6 from 35 years ago. I don't care.

I wish an optics company would offer a product that is guaranteed tracking, possibly with a certificate verifying it. like I said I don't care if the thing has leepers glass in it or glass from a $40 walmart bushnell. just track and be mechanically sound.

I think the context I was referring to, in this thread anyway, was strictly tracking and zero retention with regard to durability John. If you have any reports that prove otherwise I'd like to see them. I'm talking about a test where a SS was compared to ANY Leupold with regard to the about criteria and the Leupold did better (or heck, even as good).

my score was 18

Right in the middle with the rest of the normals.

I see the little gaffer didn't have it in him to post his score.

I like my Mk 4's just fine. I have shot more than my share and they are fine by me. Good talk sugar tits.

Something must be really wrong with me I only scored a 3 on the test.

9

I scored a "14".

19

14

Well, I got a 2. lol

That's not bad at all. All that means is you guys are two of the good guys. Google "Narcissism". If you score high on the questionnaire it means you have a lot of narcissistic traits. That's not really a good thing.

We are just the class underachievers.

The difference between the SS 3-15x42 and the Leupold MK4 4.5-15x50 is 2 ounces in the Leupold's favor. Given the sort of rifles you peddle, is 2 oz. a significant weight concession?

As far as resolution, what is the quantitative difference?

Also, do you do a custom reticle or one of Leups? What about the SWFA reticle doesn't work for you?

For turrets, the Mk4's windage turret is exposed as well, at least on the copies I have. Is it the diameter or the distance from the centerline of the tube that concerns you?

Hey Burns, now that your buddy here posted pics of several rifles bearing the scope you said he didn't own (or implied that), it's your turn to post pics of your rifles with said SWFA SS scopes.....right ? So just how many SWFA SS scopes have you owned ?

Leupold 4.5-14X50mm I use is 17 oz. The SS 3-15X42 is 24 oz.

Guess again?



Way more than enough. If you are happy with SS resolution then rock on. It is not sufficient for my applications.



I use a custom reticle. The SWFA reticles are sub optimal in any thing but full daylight and offer zero advantage for me in any lighting conditions.



Why would I suffer a MK4 windage turret?? Heck why would I suffer anything MK4??

This is what a properly setup hunting optic looks like, and it sure is not a MK4.

Roy,

WTF are you talking about?

To be clear I have never ever owned a SWFA optic. EVER.

Why would I ???

Who is my buddy and where did I say he did or did not own anything??

29 for me...

Come on now John, your "offer" to Big Stick to buy all the 4.5-14x50's, or should I say trade for a SWFA SS ? Really ? My read into that was that you were implying that he hadn't owned one.......

I didn't say you owned any SS's and was pretty sure of it. In fact I doubt you have ever spent any time behind one to validate this statement...

" Reticles that don't work well for my applications.."

Of course, they wouldn't work for your rifle systems that need pre-calibrated hashes......that's a given. So did you make all those evaluations of the SS scopes like Eremicus makes evaluations ? Meaning w/o looking through one, owning one, touching one, driving past a range were they might have had one..........lol

I was told 0.75 MOA for zero retention spec by Leupo design staff via one of the design engineers at my work who has an "intimate" connection with the design team over there. He's had whatever scope he wants on demo, more or less indefinitely.

What....plus or minus .75 moa ? Sounds about right..

That's the spirit......

Roy,

I am simply willing to trade useless (to me) $300 scopes for $1000 "never been used except in a stage picture" scopes any day. lil fish is dodging the issue and we all know it and it is funny.

He yipps and yaps but when the rubber meets the road it is all talk.

As to any "pre-calibrated hashes" you might want to study up on the state of the art in high end optics. Just Sayin.

Oh my well that sure seems authoritative. Did this "Leupo design staff" happen to have a name??

Oh my bad you never actually talked to him but one of the "design engineers" at your "work" has a "intimate" "connection" with the "design team over there".

Yeah all that seems real legit.

Leupold Derangement Syndrome, it's not just for breakfast.

Holy Schit.

You're saying your reticles are boiler plate, not exclusive to the Burns-O-Matic heat seeking missile system you sell.......seriously John, using "state of the art" in a sentence that's attached to a Leupold scope is down right funny. The only thing State of the Art about a Leupold is their buzz words used in marketing campaigns. Diamond Coat being one of my favorites. A ways back there was the quintessential Leupold customer here who actually said that Leupold used "real diamonds" in that thin film schitt they pedal....

I scored a "4" , maybe I need to want more for myself...........



P.S. I am perfectly happy with the ruggedness of my 20x ss

LOL Roy,

Yes the reticles are totally "boiler plate" as reticle hold over is suboptimal in hunting situations.

If you don't understand how far ahead the VX-6 line is over anything else as a hunting optic then my advise is hunt more and post less.

If E figured Leupold was using real Diamonds that is hardly a demerit against Leupold. E has a few issues that he needs to work out.

Not trying to be a dick but seriously what would you know about anything "state of the art" in a hunting optic?

Do you actually do any hunting?

Post up any relevant pictures of you actually using a hunting optic in the field and more specifically a SS optic.

Again I really try not to be a dick (with very suspect results) but some times a guy just has to call a spade a spade.

10 elk on one rifle and optic in a weekend. 600yds to 200yds.



Anybody got a SS that has stacked game in a similar way?? I will be waiting.

Burns,

The spec came from a design engineer. It's for the VX-6. I don't have info for any other line.

I tell you what... use one of your Leupo contacts, if you have any, and prove me wrong. And post their name!

Before you jump to conclusions, I live near the Leupo facility and have interacted with the employees in our community... the people that design, build, and service the products. It's not that far fetched that some of the locals know people that work at Leupold. I bet I've been to the Leupo facility in person more times that you've seen their ads in magazines

I've had the designer of the VX2 tell me the ocular was a mistake and gave me a VX3 for the trouble. I've had two scopes take 4 trips to the "lab" for fixes. It wasn't until I showed the techs the internally smeared lenses in the front lobby that they could understand the problem. Another VX2 wouldn't hold zero and was replaced. I've discussed scope designs with design engineers. And have bought firearms from and been to the homes of Leupold managers.

This was Leupo country 10 years ago, but it's changed dramatically. Many here would love to support the local company but have given up and gone elsewhere. The blind faith is gone in their home turf... but it still runs strong with some such as yourself.

Keep an open mind as your experience might not reflect that of many others and can cloud your judgement. You are sounding like a reactionary Leupo fan boi. You can do better than that.

Jason

I don't own any SS scopes John and in a previous post, I believe I said something to the effect that " if all the field reports are correct.." or words to that effect. You seriously asking me if I hunt ? Wow. I've posted many many pics of whitetails that I've taken everywhere from NYS, to Maine, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan.

As far as me "posting less" due to my lack of knowledge of "state of the art" are you saying that you have specific knowledge and expertise that led to the actual design of any scopes internal mechanical design ? What were they specifically ? I'm not talking about air brushing some stupid logo on the side of a scope and calling it "proprietary" either. Tell me what (new) advancements you've made to the design of a riflescope. I am eager to learn more

Damnation, wasn't long ago that trying to decide between a matte finish or a gloss finish was the "problem"

I am all [bleep] ears now. Tell me all about the "state of the art" advancements in the VX-6.

Well Tim Lessor and Tim O'Connor think you are full of schit.





Who exactly is the "designer of the vx2"??



Quite obviously my experience does not reflect others. That is sort of the crux of the situation.

My experience:



Some others:

Muh Leupold don't track right.

Do you care to guess whether I go with my results or the ranting of anonymous internet posters?

VX-6s are uber.

As I thought. Nothing. Which is the amount of state of the art advancement they offer. They were only 5 or 6 years behind the 6500's wider zoom range though which is pretty good for them. Only 15 years behind Elites to offer the state of the art "dual erector springs"........laughing. And maybe one day they might invent hydrophobic nano film technology too...

Don't know schit. Big surprise.

I was down right nervous that he actually did contribute some advancements to the world of sport optics.

As I said: Uber.

dave

Phuqk uber I got a 24!

Love the Hobby market.

I do like your sense of humor I'll say. John, I'll bet there isn't a guy here who wouldn't like to see Leupold tighten up their QC. For the first fifteen years or so of my hunting, I owned nothing but Leupold scopes. When I had more spendable cash, I started to travel (airline) with them and they were constantly getting knocked off zero. As much as 4 inches off. I don't know about you, but that didn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling. I decided to try something different, searched around, listened to folks who had them and bought a B&L 4000. My zero problems stopped. Started to replace more and more with 4200's. Now I realize that I can't say that the gun cases were handled with equal abuse, but I know that baggage handlers are abusive in general. Maybe this doesn't prove anything at all. From my range time, shooting some very accurate rifles, I'll say w/o a question, that the Elites track better too. I would like nothing more than to be able stick a American made scope on all my rifles.

That is one heck of a mulie John.

No kidding Roy.

Sort of wish it were mine, sort of.

Talkin optics is fun even if we might not always agree.

Have a good night.

'NH,

I've long been more than a touch comfy to give others the first shot,with anything they care to drag along and at whatever it may be.

I've Crunched alotta Critters,that had been pre-shot at.(grin)

To the chagrin of them that shoot the least...not all wares is equal and more than a couple/few things matter. If the glass can't/won't arrange POA/POI intersections,it's over wayyyyyyyyyyy before it starts.

I'm fairly certain that boolits matter too..............(grin)















JohnSquirms,

I do not know anyone who could garner enough faith in their Reupold 4.5-14x's of any flavoring,to trust one even on a lighthearted Killing Rifle...let alone a straight up Utility Killing Rifle. Zero retention and tracking,has never been there. Not that lotsa pards didn't give 'em a fair shake too. Hint.

You'd need a co-signer for the scope covers alone. Hint.

Try this with a Reupold 4.5-14x. Zero confirmation with different powder,with 1000+ MOA dumped in erector betwixt pokes,cycling same top to bottom.

I assure you the feeble fhuqking attempt WILL be fhuqking funny. Hint.

OEM Montucky punched 223AI with form loads. Feel free to use your Imagination and Pretend,to conjure the Delusion that you've "seen" one of those too. Laughing!




Never not funnier than fhuqk,to listen to the Delusions which are fueled by your Proprietary Imagination and Pretend.You are Clueless Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit,who would do/say anything for a penny.

Congratulations?!?

P.S. and by the way,you'll haveta' pardon my being afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess,if only because I actually HAVE and USE it all. I realize that'd be a novel concept to you,and VERY different from how you "do" things. Though in fairness...your "Proprietary" outlandish Drooling Dumbfhuqkery,is simply EPIC fhuqking humor.

Here's to you doing your best and the countless lies accompanying those "efforts".

Bless your heart..............














kchuntboy,

Your head is in so farrrrrrrrrrrrrr up your ass,that my sole hope is that someone is pumping daylight to you,so you are brazen enough to continue.

Don't let the cat get your tongue,or the couch your kchunt,as you wax eloquent on all the things you almost did,the wares you nearly used and the places you fhuqking near got to to.

Wow.

Bless your heart...............















'Finn,

Do NOT discount how "real" Imagination and Pretend are to Squirms.

She's rockin' the Proprietary versions of same and is an Honorary Texan to boot.

Laughing!.................















SuperKchunt,

After copious research...was you able to pinpoint which year it was,that you last went Outdoors?!?

Didn't think so.

At least Imagination and Pretend are "free",so you can "afford" to contribute. Prolly a great time to plagiarize and swipe some pics.

Didja' get the Xmas Card?!? Hell,feel free to say you was there and gunned the frame.

Laughing!



Bless your heart...............















fredrica,

You've "shot" MORE than your share of Imagination and Pretend and it remains a shame,that you haven't the 13 IQ Points requisite,to cypher what an INCREDIBLY Stupid Fhuqk you are.

You "hard chargers" are a fhuqking riot!

Bless your heart..............















MagnumDoosh,

I see you are still sucking a mean ass. Congratulations?!?

Might you be able to narrow down the decade in which you last stepped Outdoors?!?

Lie as you do and embellish as you must.

Laughing!

Bless your heart.................















'fight,

She's never even fhuqking seen one...let her off the hook or she'll Ban you.

Laughing!....................













'260,

The 10x MQ is the one to whoop on a Giggles Rifle.

6x MQ for Killing................















'deep,

You've NEVER known schit and given the odds...never will.

Bless your heart..............











Never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't.

Hint...............

Ok guys you can keep arguing who owns more toys vs. who puts them to use more.


Here is the rub - SALES CHANNELS

I can't buy a frigg'n Super Chicken like I can a Leupold - .. WHAT you ask...why would he say this.

1) I don't like buying anything over 2oo bucks I can't put my hands on, and more importantly eyes on in this case.

2) Many of the financing deals I get when buying said optics are only available via the sales channel (Bearbasin, Cabelas, ....)

So

Where is the best place to see a bunch of Super chicken glass, vs. higher end German, and Leupold glass... So at least I'm ok buying via SWFA.
Amazon, and Midway USA carry SS but don't have a place...


I've given up on you guys discussing real things like clarity, contrast..
If anyone wants to read on that... http://www.6mmbr.com/optics.html
** Note they don't rate super chicken... Which is why I started this thread, the guys I hang with don't use them as much as the tactical yeahoos..

If Dances with sticks reads that link I set he'll notice that even that crew flagged Leupold on their repeatability...

This is not an unknown fact, hasn't been for a long, long time... Every swinging blank on the planet has a Leupold, if you've used them as spinners you know it already if you are worth your salt.

It is interesting that we as a group are willing to 1) deal with optics like that and keep using then (people see value here) 2) others are moving away from them to get better repeatability even with lower quality optic properties (super chickens taking more ground, and guys like me looking at them).

?? I thought Burns was always a Coppertone guy?

Stick,

Interested to hear your review of the VX-6. I'll be up at 11 to see the film....

You mean Lesser, not Lessor right? At least spell the dude's name correctly

I appreciate the contact names, but you forgot to mention the zero retention spec. What do Tim & Tim have to say about it for the VX-6?

If you could share that info with us to confirm or deny what I was told it would be great. Better yet, perhaps you could use your "celebrity" status to have some of the Leupo guys come back here and post it themselves. They used to do that awhile ago, but I haven't seen them for a spell.


Jason

Why not just call SWFA and ask how much they would charge you as a restocking fee were you to send a SWFA SS back? My guess is that it would be $10 or less. Order one and evaluate it at home in all light conditions,which is more than you could do at any brick and mortar store. They will let you return any unmounted scope. All it will cost you is shipping and restocking fee if they charge one, which will likely be less than traveling cost anyway.

Most of the brick and mortar stores I got to will let me take the scopes outside at dusk and compare them.. (As most folks I spend to much at those stores)...

But none of the carry SS.

I'm keen on how the coatings effect the light, for my own reasons. But that doesn't help much if I can't hit the dang thing.

Gotta see it before ya choot it... I like staying on my scope with I'm pdog flipping


I may have to got that route in the end (restock if I don't like it)...
I wish the variable SS were cheaper - .. Or carried by BearBasin - they have 1 year no interest for high dollar purchases.

Oh well, I'll try some gun shows and check out some new shops to see if I can get my hands on them..

Sugar tits
Speaking of dumb plucking chitz take a look at this retard.


You calling me stupid is a compliment, once one knows the source it's actually cute covered in sad.

I'm quite certain I could kill 10 critters the size of a cow elk at ranges of 200-600 yards with a Walmart special 4x scope and most any factory rifle.

I've got no dog in the fight and have nothing against John Burns...I just wanted to point this out. I agree with him on the mil quad reticle though. Too thin and busy for a balls out hunting rifle.

That being said, I do have another 6X mil quad SS on the way.

I have a couple of comments; go ahead attack them.

First - in many ways a warranty is worthless. If you have flown a few thousand miles, then got on a float plane to take you to your hunting camp, then paid more than a couple of thousand dollars to your guide who cares about their warranty when their scope fogs up. I have seen that happen.

I use a 2.5x8 Leopold on a 338RUM, 375RUM, a 340 Weatherby and a .378 Weatherby. They don't especially track well when I sight them in but they don't move after I have sighted them in.

Big Stick, your actually do know a lot about rifles, to bad your way of writing makes the impartation of your knowledge worthless.

Big Stick, you cannot compare your self to others when you don't know who they are.

Big Stick, it also appears that you are shooting far more animals than allowed by Fish and Game regulations. If I can believe what you are saying. Does someone here need to call Fish and Game?

You should have stayed in high school or at least gotten your GED you dumbfhuck. You think I was complementing you when I said you weren't "skeered of anything"? Clearly, to even the dullest among us (like you), that comment was tied to the narcissism questionnaire that was posted. I have no doubt that if you answered the questionnaire honestly you would score abnormally high. A high score is not good, it's bad. It means you show a lot of narcissistic (Google narcissism...laffin'...) tendencies or attributes. Narcissistic tendencies are not coveted tendencies. The more narcissistic tendencies you display the more of an azzhole you are to the people around you. Granted, since your dick-height stature leaves you largely ignored (out of sight out of mind), the people who do interact with you probably feel like they should shoot you for the good of the species. I wouldn't though; I really enjoy your longer posts because the grammatical errors are enormously entertaining, i.e., no spaces between commas and the two related passages, capitalizing seemingly at random, and of course, your trademark double and triple negatives puked all over your writings. Please continue to write in the same fashion as it is sometimes the only thing that makes me laugh for that day.

Oh, yeah...GFY.

Laffin' out [bleep] loud!

You should get better class of pards.













Well you are a hard charger. Three shots on the paper. Did you have to take a day off after all the 1000+ MOA erector dumping.

The fact that you are off with the "zero" does add to my amusement at your "zero confirmation" testing.

I tend to do it a bit different. I just find a coyote at 700yds, dial to the 7, kill the coyote. Yup 4.5-14 working fine and "zero" is "confirmed".



You still need to pick out the 6x SS for the swap.

Love and kisses
John