I have never spent much money on my optics but I am looking to slowly correct that. I mostly deer hunt the woods of Oklahoma so being able to see far has not been much of an issue to date. However, I am wanting to start doing some hunts out west (NM, CO, etc.) with my dad and kids in the coming years so I want to start getting gear that is more versatile. My current binos are Leupold BX-1 6x30 which is the best glass I have ever had therefore the best that I know. I would like to get a pair of versatile 8x42's that I can use here in OK or spotting and stalking out west. I am trying to stay around the $500 mark and I settled in on the 8x42's after having done some research and again the fact that I want them to be versatile. What I am not sure about is the best value out of the group listed below. I am also open to other suggestions in my price range. Thank you all in advance.

Leupold BX-3 Mohave Pro Guide HD: $479

Leupold BX-3 Mohave: $265

Vortex Viper HD: $570

Vortex Talon HD: $400

Steiner Predator: $350

Nikon Monarch 7: $420

Or am I better off stepping up to the Zeiss Conquest HD for $900?

I have both Vortex models you list and they are very similar in glass quality and function. Virtually everyone prefers the ergos of the Viper. The main differences are the Talon is the top Chinese glass and a double bridge while the Viper is Japanese made and single bridge.

I am not a fan of the feel of double-bridge bins and would check the feel of the Leupolds before going there. They are doubles.

I really dislike the Steiner Predator eyecups...

The Monarch has a limited warranty and the Vortex is unconditional and lifetime...

As to the Zeiss Conquest... I have been a Zeiss slut for 35 years and still have my old ClassiC 10x42... I do not like the feel of the Conquests at all.

If you can find older Leica Trinovids for about 800 it is worth it!

I found out a long time ago to buy once / cry once.

Europtics has the 2012-2015 year model Leica Trinovid discounted to $879 for the 8x42 (list price $1599) and $899 for the 10x42 (list price $1649).

You wont find a better binocular at this price.

I have owned the Zeiss Conquest HD, while you can look for a new pair of Leica TRinovid 8x42 model number 40008...these are the pair the socalled new HD's were to replace. Fantastic Glass and in the mid 800 range if you find them.

http://www.samplelist.com/Binoculars-C3392.aspx

I'll throw our hat into the ring for the 8x42 Toric or 8x42 Tekoa .

There have been a few members here whom have purchased the Toric and written reviews on here and some other forums.

In a nutshell, we're a direct to consumer company, so no additional added margins on the product.

For the Toric, at $650, your getting quality that is just as good as some of the $1000-$1200 models out there...and in many cases, rivaling some of the $1500+ Binos. But by all means, check out some of the reviews here and on Bird forum.

The Tekoa is at about a $450 retail. While the Toric reign supreme and has better light transmission and resolution, the Tekoa is knocking at its door. It has a lighter weight polycarbonate body while the Toric has a magnesium allow body, among a few other differences.

As I have said with the Toric, with the Tekoa at a $450 retail, youre getting a Bino that can hold its own against the Conquest in some fields, but beat out many others at that $700-$800 mark.


Just to drop a hint....while we had the Toric promotion a few weeks back...we will be having a Tekoa promotion coming up in a few weeks as well. Chance to get that 4450 down to even a lower price.

Viper HD's are the best deal.

Conquest HD's are better than Trinovids.

Leica hasn't done much beyond put lipstick on their binoculars the last 10years or so.

David

I would keep an eye on ebay as well, I have found a couple of great deals on there the past couple of months. I bought a pair of Swarovski 10x42 SLC this week for $525.

The problem with Leica is their TERRIBLE warranty service.

Don't get me wrong, the 8x32 ultravids are the best current 32mm binos I've looked through, including the Victorys and ELs, but given the experiences of my hunting buddies, and what has been reported on the places like the 'fire, I be leery of Leica..........

Nikon is now advertising a "No Fault Warranty", but the paperwork in the package seems to suggest different. In the past Nikon's warranty service has been hit and miss.

When it comes to optics, I've learned the value of manufacturers who stand behind their products.

Casey

After having used mine in Namibia, and scouting around our mule deere and whitetail places, the Toric is a no brainer. I can say this even after direct comparison with my SLC HD, Meopta HD, and Conquest HD, and the SLCneu, Swaro SLC 8x30 Wb, and ConquestHD the outfitter in Namibia had in camp.

The toric is fantastic, and better than anything under $2k IMO.

The Toric is a 42mm ?


Casey

8x42 is the one I have.

I have Razor HD's that are one year old, I had Conquests both the regular and HD, do not even begin to compare the glass quality.

Sooner:

I will give you my opinion, as I own some of those
that have been mentioned.

If it is in your budget the Zeiss Conquest HD is very good
and one of the best in the mid-range.

The Nikon Monarch 7 is also very good for its price and
you will also do well here.

The Leica Trinovid 8x42 is also very good, but the Conquest HD is better and brighter.

Good luck with your optics search.

Conquest HD's

Viper HD's

Razor HD's

Trinovid

David

find a used set of leupold gold rings.....

I gave my son the Razor HDs for Christmas last year... they are extremely good glass and I agree the Conquest is not close. But that is also a $1500 bin at full retail. I just found a used example on Amazon for $400! In "like new" condition and Vortex warranties them on top of that.

Yeah I gave my son my Razor HD 10x50's as well

Let me clarify

I paid less then 1k for my Rzors new on a special and the conquests IDGAS which one is not in the same league as the Razors and the Razors cannot compare to my Leica Trinovids.



I have purchased 8 pairs of binoculars in the last 4 years trying to find the optimum bino, none of the stores around me sell really good Alpha glass. I don't like them I sell them and try another pair.

I suppose we all see things differently. Vortex has never been in my radar, with all of the other great choices.

I own the best from Swarovski and Zeiss, Swarovision and SF.

The Zeiss Conquest HD, can be a one and done. The 10x42
is a great all around.

Save your cash and go there.

The Docter 8 x 56 ED/OH with Abbe Koenig prisms is just outstanding. I own Nikon Edge, Monarch V, Trijicon, Leica and Swarovski and my favorite image comes from the Docter 8 x 56. The Docter 8 x 56 Nobilem is also outstanding, if you can find it. It's no longer produced, but it has a huge porro prism and is exceptionally bright and clear. The Nikon Monarch V 8 x 56 is also very, very good for around $500.00.


Jordan

I own Zeiss and Swarovski but if I wanted the best bino for around or under $1000 I would be taking a long look at the Maven B2.

If its too big then the Tract Toric,Conquest HD or Leica Trinovid.

I'd take a hard look at the Minox HG glass made in Germany. I have two, an 8.5x43 and a 10x43. Both are terrific.

Might try talking to Doug at Cameraland NY.

I have the older Trinovids, too, almost a year old... I do not see the Razor as inferior glass. I like the feel of the Trinovids better but would be happy working with either.

The 8x56, at more than twice the weight of everything else discussed and several times the money... very relevant...

Of the ones you listed I like the Leupold BX-3 Mohave Pro Guide HD: $479

I don't know what you want to do or if you have good eyes or need binos that offer eye relief.

Viper HDs are good but they are not as good as the Conquest HDs.

You should be able to find a pair of Leica Ultravids for under $1000 if you look hard enough.

I know that you can find good deals on Swaro 10X42 HDs right now. They are extremely good binos that work well in poor light as well as having very good glass.

You might check out the Swaro 10X25 CL Pockets. They are very good for the money.

Nikon Monarch 7s are great and presently have a very good warranty. We see it in action and they really don't ask questions and will back up their product.

The new leupold BX3 HD Pro Guides are very good and I was surprised that they can run with Vortex Vipers or with Nikons but they don't break into the big dogs.

Razors are good but people who are completely honest with you will tell you take the APO prism system can get knocked out of alignment and cause headaches. They you have to send them in for new Razors.

I have quite a bit of experience with all levels of binoculars but I don't know what your needs or what your eyes like.

To each his own I guess. You can get the Nikon Monarch V 8 x 56 for under $500.00. Yes, they are heavier and larger but the view from a 56mm lens is outstanding. I have found that I prefer it. Again, to each his own. The Docter's are about a $1000.00, but that is less than half of new Swaros, Leica or Zeiss. It'll relative I guess.

Still shaking my head...

Ultravids for under a grand???

I have far more than a passing history with Razors and have never heard of a single case of prism system issues with them. But I do know exactly how to get the exact numbers on those returns and will see what I can find on that and report back.

Art. I sell them. Its not my full time gig but it pays for my camping gear. In fact, I sell a lot of razors. I make a point of getting my customers into the very best binos for their budget. I probably have sold more than 60 pairs of Razors in the last three years. I might know more than a little bit about binoculars. Most people who buy Razors know what they are doing and take them sheep hunting. They aren't easy on them. The APO prism system consists of three sets of prisms that work in very tight alignment to produce a very snappy image. At its apex it approaches the optical quality of a pair of Swaro SLCs. However, this same tight alignment can be knocked out of alignment in the course of rough use. They will work and produce a decent image but because the optical elements aren't in perfect alignment the user will develop severe head aches especially if they use them on a tripod.

http://cameralandny.com/spec-sheet.html?catalog[name]=Leica-Ultravid-10x25-BR-Binoculars-%2340253-ultravid-hd&catalog[product_guids][0]=1240327

Best used Pentax DCF SP or ED you can afford
Excellent customer service

I have a pair of Talon HD 8x42s I got through Cameraland for $365-ish and they're awesome. I really like the ergos and have compared them side by side with much better glass and while there is a difference (mostly in color rendition) it doesn't justify the massive price difference in my mind.

I have not tried the Viper HDs so I don't know what Sitka Deer is talking about, but I've found in optics as in much of life ignorance is bliss cuz I'm really happy with what I have and don't, at this point, care to even consider another bino.

Definitely shop Cameraland's open box specials tho; they're a fantastic value!

I'm very happy with my German made Minox. They don't have the sexy name recognition of Swarovski or Leica but to my eyes I don't see how I can do better. My hunting partner uses Swarovski and the Minox compare very favorably in my opinion. There's a lot of options out there for high quality optics without breaking the bank.

Binoculars are really wanted or necessary to see better. I have been using quality binos. for many decades for hunting and sailing to see aids to navigation and landmarks.

My eyesight is better than average at almost 20-13. Each person should choose their own optics by comparing them.

The three I have here now are my 7/12x32mm Switch Powers, Hensoldt 8X56 Nacht Dialyts, and Nikon Action 7-15x35's.
Fourth unknown, Fifth Nikon Action 7-15x35.






Of them the Nikon Action zooms were the most fun outside just now. For the price I suggest having something like them around anyway.



I want to post a pic. of them and will do it later.

swell......

You know you can't wait Don...

Maybe we will get lucky and he will talk a little optics with us...grin...

Good vision is a waste without the ability to process the signals received.

The trouble with irony is not everyone gets it...

Here are some of my binoculars:



From the bottom of the picture.

Leupold Switch/Power 7/12x32mm
Considering the versitality, ability to see and cost these might be the first choice.

Hensoldt 8X56mm Nacht Diayts.
I have been using these Hensoldts since the early 1960's.
Leica laser LAR 1200 Scan Final two at top pic. unknown.

swell.....

No such thing as a "APO" prism system.
APO relates to the configuration of the objective lenses.

The Razor uses a standard Schmidt Pechan prism system.

Yup... more info coming in on exactly how many Razors get returned... "damn few" is the guesstimate...

I could easily hunt and be very plesed with the Razor line, as it is the pick of the litter as far as Vortex binocs and spotters go. They are quite good. Problem is there are as good or better binocular choices for less money.

But the swelling is going down...

What is APO prism system?
Achromatic lens systems, those used in most binoculars, are designed to bring two color wavelengths (typically red and blue) into focus in the same plane and thus present clean, crisp images by reducing the fringing between color areas in the image. Extra-low dispersion (ED) glass in objective lenses helps to improve this further.

We were curious about how Vortex achieved the apochromatic view and thought you would be, too, so we asked about it.

The apochromatic (also called "apo") lens system, such as is used in the new Razor HD binoculars, is designed bring three color wavelengths (typically red, blue, and green) into focus in the same plane. In the apochromatic Razor HD binoculars, Vortex staff tell us that this is accomplished by using a second ED lens along with a third, non-ED lens in the objective lens area. This apochromatic design, sometimes called a triplet optical design, reduces the amount of blurring or fuzzing between colors in the observed images even further than an optical design using a single ED objective lens. We felt that the apochromatic Razor HD was significantly above average in reducing chromatic aberration.

This apochromatic optical design is similar to that used in the Vortex Razor HD spotting scopes and it seems reasonable to think that Vortex elected to use that approach in this binocular update. In conducting research for this article, we noticed that the apochromatic spotting scope seems to be quite well received as an above average value for the money and, based on experience with our Razor HD binoculars with the apochromatic triplet design, it seems likely that the binoculars will be well received as well.

In observing colors, we felt that our apochromatic Razor HD instrument was for all practical purposes color-neutral.

What is the benefit of an apochromatic lens system? As binocular users the colors appear sharper to us and there is greater observable or "apparent" detail in the images viewed through it. This is easily discernible with the new Razor HD. The color sharpness translates readily to increased observable detail. The difference this presents to the human eye is significant and we believe outweighs the resolution measured on black and white test charts, which suggest that the Razor HD's resolution of details is on the high side of average for black and white images.


Read more from original site: http://www.opticsreviewer.com/razor-hd-binoculars.html#ixzz4NCpT8xXC

What this means is as I have previously said. If one of the three different lens gets knocked out of alignment the viewer will start developing head aches. Now for most people who can afford Razors and refrain from rolling them down a mountain there are no problems and there will never be problems. But this can be an issue.

No, you said prisms, and that's why you were getting your ass rode.

Prisms hang out in space inside a binocular. Anchoring them can be tough. They get knocked out of alignment sometimes, especially in cheaper glasses.

A lens triplet is far easier to anchor and keep from shifting... I have trouble believing it is even remotely common to have them come loose or shift. In the grand scheme of things they are made for anchoring...

Still have some things being checked out.

You have shown us your zoom binoculars, so now show and tell
us about your quality binoculars.

Here's some Leupold Mckinley's for $367 to your door.

might check out the Maven line of optics, I like mine

The Nikon Action Zooms near the top are superb considering what their price was.

They seem to have been discontinued, however now I see Nikon 'Aculon' 8-18x42's at only $175!

Find some, try them.

Nikon Aculon's $175.

[img]https://www.rei.com/media/351eb6a9-9401-486b-b890-6d4f7ba0a941[/img]

From here to the bottom of the hill down there the Leica's measure 536 yards. To the top of the hill it has to be over two miles.

I have several binoculars. If I had to have just one it would be the Nikon 7-15X35. The Minox 15X58 is better that the 15X in the Nikon but the Minox 13X56 was not as good as the 15X Nikon. I love my Alpen Tetons 10X50 but they are too limited. None of the others would be in the running because of the goodness of the glass and its versatility. Alas I'm not limited to one so I either use the Nikon Monarch 7 8X30 or the Nikon 7X35 and religate the 7-15X35 to the truck.

You can bet your last buck I will be trying this new optic.

I'd look hard at the Meopta Meostars, best glass for the money IHMO.

The Razors have piss poor edge clarity in comparison and don't do detail as well. They'd be a good deal if they were 700.00, their not worth much more than that. The new trinovids are like 900-1000, they are very nice as well.

Nikon ACULON A211 8 - 18 x 42 Binoculars

I just found them on Amazon for $135.

Just after you posted I added this to my post above:

[img]https://www.rei.com/media/351eb6a9-9401-486b-b890-6d4f7ba0a941[/img]

From here to the bottom of the hill down there the Leica's measure 536 yards. To the top of the hill it has to be over two miles.

DumbassDon and Wrongman, opining optics... JFC...

Never ceases to Amaze and the same tired pictures.


To the OP Cry once

I'm sure you'll appreciate the lookup.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/junk

The 7/12x32mm Leupolds on the right are so handy and able to tell "what is it"?

in my best ghetto voice, "What it is?".......

The OP will hopefully be able to discern advice from those that use quality optics and actually hunt vs bullschit from those that do neither.

In case he needs help, Dumbass Don (Savage_99) and Wrongman fall into, Hell they may define, the latter category.

Savage_99,

Thanks for the heads up. I have some on the way.

birds of a feather....

I found some Leupold Pinnacle 8x42 at the LGS for $229 the other day. My soon to be 11 year old now has some new binos to use...couldn't pass them up and have a feeling I will be using them some myself

And I'm an optics snob

If the original poster hasn't bought a pair yet then my suggestion would be the Theron Optics Questa 8x42s. Same basic design as the Leupold McKinleys but with more refinement to the design.

I did a review of them and posted it here and on several other optics forums last year. $425 and the most impressive view you will find in the under $500 price range.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...on+Questa/Search/true/Theron_Questa_8x42

Thomas
As promised I have done a bit of research... I deleted most of the quoted post, but there is very, very little of your assessment I agree with, but want to concentrate on this paragraph.

I really did not like the comment suggesting anyone was being dishonest recommending Razors.

Compounding that with confabulations about APO lenses and prisms shows your underpinnings as an optics pimp might be more than a bit shakey.

The headaches produced by cheap glass are not uncommon at all and I have sent in more than a few bins for recollimation. That is a function of the prisms and NOT the objective lens. Any bin can have the prisms knocked out of collimation with enough force. The return and repair rate on Razors does not show any increase over other high end bins.

I asked the folks at Vortex, called several optics sellers and asked if they had seen any service issues with Razors and all said they had not heard of the issue.

I've read enough of Frank's posts over the years and tried many of the same binos he's recommended to know that if Franks says it's going to rain, I'm packing a raincoat.

Agree with you SKane....FrankD is a very knowledgeable guy.

Truth.

You guys are giving me a big head.

:-)

Its not the prisms being knocked out of alignment, its poor glass quality that causes headaches. The issue is that most cheap glass loses clarity and definition at the edges, (do a simple edge to edge test, even on your razors) Your brain focuses on the center of the picture, but is still trying to process the picture to the edges. The speed at which the eye strain and headaches come on is a direct reflection to the quality of the glass and design. For the average joe hunter, it does't matter in most cases because a long period of glassing maybe 30 minutes, for me its a huge deal because my average day of mule deer hunting, I'm on the glass 4-6 hours.

Rereading my post I see where I was a little unclear. I intimated prisms out of alignment were always the issue that causes eye strain and that only cheap glass has the issue. Good glass as the starting point leaves damage such as knocking the prisms out of collimation as the headache source.

I have been running alpha glass for almost 40 years... The Razors are in the same league. There is no color fringing and they are the same edge-to-edge.

Do you and Ringman hang out often, you guys seem to have the same optics reviewing skills.

They are not in the same league as the Meoptas, Swaros, High end Zeiss, or High end leica..

Every pair I've played with has at least 20% of the view on the edges distorted, plus the glass view has a slightly green tint, and the CA control is not there either.

Art-

You do not have to explain to customers who have spent more than $1100 on average why they are getting head aches. If you are as close to the Vortex Company as you say then you honestly know the price point of manufacture that Vortex has. Vortex is the biggest brand in Optics. Zeiss, Nikon, Leica and Swaro are changing how they do business because of Vortex. Yes, the Razors are decent binos but they use SPIFFs to sales associates to honestly push optics sales. More than any other company. I ask you this, go into any larger store that sells Vortex and you will find a very eager salesperson trying to put Razors into your hands. They get a SPIFF of 75$ for every pair that they sell. They only get 15$ for Diamond backs. Most are only earning about 10$ per hour so they do have an incentive to sell Vortex.

You have said the the Vortex Razor HD is better optically than the Zeiss HD Conquests that are made in Germany. Try using the 30 m dollar test looking at the signature of the undersecretary of the treasury with each binocular. I know that different people have different likes in binoculars but the Zeiss produces a sharper image for $100 less at MSRP. The Meopta and the Leica Trinovid also articulate a better image for the same or less retail price.

Vortex manufactures much of their line in China to reduce production expenses. This includes their Razor HD Spotters. Maybe they feel that Chinese workers can assemble a alpha level product? Zeiss has tried this and it hasn't gone well. I personally believe that Vortex also counts on customers not using them hard enough to cause failure in the field. Failures happen with all brands of binoculars. We had two Swaro Spotters give up the ghost this past season.

I have also used binoculars hunting. I have not been a hunting guide. I have shot many Alaskan game animals in my 40+ years of living in remote areas of Alaska. You might not know who Tom Butler or Frank Billum or Nelson Greist or Pat Madros is but I have learned many things from them and I have hunted a variety of game. I feel blessed that I have had the opportunities that I have had. I was hunting sheep in what became hard park before Carter. I am not some petulant child seeking name brand recognition. I don't stake my reputation on my relatives performance. I use my equipment hard.

Vortex Razors are good binoculars. But they are not Alpha Binoculars. I do deal with irate customers who bring in Vortex Binoculars that are not in alignment. It happens more with the Diamond backs that we sell but it also happens with the Razors. Viper HD binoculars in my experience have a better track record than the Razors.

You can go your way. I will go mine. The bottom line is I have a very different view of Vortex Optics than you.

Congratulations, you made it all the way to azzhole. Tough choice here; listen to an internet bloviator with an agenda, believe all the formal reviews being done, or trust my own eyes....

Oh wait, two of the options match...

You and Ringman are the same..

I can think of no qualified optics reviewer (and I've read a lot of them) not on a stipend or prostaff that has ever said the razor bins or spotters are as good as the alpha glass. They all say close at best..


Hidden agenda? I'm all ears. I spend 40 - 50 days a year hunting, guiding, or scouting. I get to evaluate a lot of glass in all conditions between my clients, co workers, and taking lots of different glass on field trips. The internet is full of dipschitt prostaffers and pimple faced counter jockeys that get 75% off their asian glass. They have no field experience, or even hunting experience to back up their opinions.

https://youtu.be/mEB7WbTTlu4

I have absolutely no agenda except to try to provide folks with my views on binoculars. I don't understand the "options" part. I am sure all of the Vortex nation folks will jump in to tell us how the Razors perform better Swaro EL, Leica Noctivids, Nikon Edges, or Zeiss Victory SPs.

Okay, you push binoculars over a counter... and you have customers returning non-APO glass with the problem you attributed to APO. So what exactly does a sub $200 binocular have to do with the Razor?

Kaboku68,

Just as an FYI, the Conquests use glass from Komachura and not Schott glass, hence the lesser quality of the image.

Let's qualify the statement. We deal with more Alpens on returns than any other binocular. Leupold Binoculars come next. They break at the bridges. We then through the volume of our sales get lots of returns on the Diamondbacks. However, the Razors have also been returned 4 times in the last two years not with broken bridges or any other damage but with the owners upset because they spent a lot of money and then complained that after they had dropped their binoculars that the binoculars would give them headaches.

There is one solid note about returns. They specifically said the same thing of why they returned the binoculars. We allow folks to return binoculars before 30 days if they can be resold. A master guide returned a pair of Leica Geovid HD-Bs about a week ago because he didn't like them and he wanted the newer model.

The Razor complaints were extremely specific and we attempted to give the customers new Razor binoculars. Two went with new Razors and they haven't been returned. One wanted a refund and we gave it to him. The fourth guy moved up to SLC HDs and is happy with them.

This is in my experience and there could have been other cases. We sell a lot of binoculars so for the most part people buying the Razors are happy with the product. I purchased a pair of 12X50HD Razors for my father who loves them. But we were being specific. These people had almost exactly the same complaint.

WRO- Optics4Birding site lists that Zeiss Conquest HDs have Schott Glass as well.
http://www.optics4birding.com/zeiss-conquest-hd-10x42-binoculars.html