Wondering if anyone has loaded +P loads to match the "FBI" loads.

Buffalo Boar uses the Rim Rock Lead with Gas Check.
They are easily available from Rim Rock. BHN of 5 is listed for that bullet by Rim Rock. They state that they can be pushed 1000 fps plus.

I am leaning towards a heavy load of HS-6.

What say you fella's with proven loads?


They will be shot from 3" Model 60 (.357)to 6" K-38. With a few in between.

I don't understand exactly what you are asking. If you are asking if I have loaded them, the answer is yes. Most of us probably have.

Two things:

I have never used bullets as soft as these with a GC for 20-22k psi. I believe they are 2% Sn only.

The data for HS-6 is very wide spread. Maximum charges for lead SWC go from 6.6gr Hornady Third Edition to 8.0gr listed in Speer No. 8 manual (1200fps). Hornady lists using Standard SP primers. Speer using Magnum SP primers. I will be using Magnum primers because my experience is that this powder needs them. Hodgdon's data does not list +P loads for lead bullets.

Proven Loads?

I did some load development work last year in regards to the "FBI Load" with this 158gr bullet.



Equivalent load with 3 powders are as follows:

7.0gr HS-6
6.4gr AA#5
5.6gr Unique

Hope that helps.

Don

What bullet is that? Specs?


How did the three powders compare?


Thank you in advance.

Gibby,

That bullet comes out of a MP Mold's .359640 mold. Actual weight lubed using the alloy I use for .38 Special loads is 160gr. The 3 powders produce loads that are the equivalent of each other in velocity (SWAG of about 950fps from a 4 inch barrel). I mostly use Unique only because I have so much of it.

Don

Many of us have been powder coating our cast bullets. I have been experimenting with real soft lead and powder coating including a bullet much like the one pictured. Expansion is impressive and weight retention is nearly 100%. I have pushed them in 357 and 45 Colt and ended up with no leading at all. I have been using Accurate powders and cannot comment on your powders listed.

I load a lot of the Thompson 358156 in HP form. I have two of the molds, one solid and one HP that I converted. The solid weighs about 159-160 and the HP goes 151-153 depending on alloy in my pot. Both of them get the same charge underneath them and more often than not it's either 5.0 or 5.5 gr of Unique.

I actually prefer them cast a little harder as they tend to act like a Nosler Partition peeling back the hollow point and then fracturing the petals off, leaving the solid base to penetrate deeper. And they seem to expand even out of my 2" M10 shot into wet phonebooks from 7 yards.

I've loaded them up to 7.0gr of Unique for use in my 38/44s and they are everything Skeeter said they'd be as far as expansion when you are getting near 357 magnum velocities.

Yep, that's the beauty of casting your own: you match the alloy to the intended velocity and usage.

Don

My soft cast open but do not fracture. I have recovered 280 grain soft 45 Colt rounds and none have lost 5 grains.

Do you know of any commercial casters that make these?

I use a 158gr SWC load using AA#5 with good luck. I am wanting to get about 100-150fps more. HS6 will let you do that.

So, a soft lead bullet with gas check going 1200fps at 20-22k psi in a revolver is no problem?

All depends on whether you are on the giving or receiving end of the barrel.

No problem at all with powder coating. Several details to get right to make it work with traditional lube, but easily possible as well. In my experience anyway.

No problem even without the gas check. I have done it Mt 45 colt Blackhawk.

+1. I cast bullets for my M1 Carbine that travel at 1800fps without a gas check.

Don

BHN 5 ?

Straight lead with just enough tin to make the bullets fill out the mold.

PM me your address.

No, not a BHN of 5. My example simply shows that in most situations, gas checks are not necessary. That's where the varying of an alloy blend comes into play. You don't want to use just pure lead (BHN 5) anyways. Include at least 2% tin in the mix for good mold fill out.

Don

Don and Scott, I want to compliment you boys on your patience. We need to encourage everyone we can to get involved in shooting and learn about it. You fellas and Roninphenoix seem to have the right temperment to do that. I stay out of many discussions because I simply do not have the patience necessary and I don't want to discourage or piss anyone off by telling them they need to do some homework. You fellas are helpful and informative and that may encourage someone to go do some homework rather than me bluntly telling them they need to go do it.

This bullet casting forum is a great place for shooters to learn some good information without all the crap that is on some other forums at the Camp Fire (and all over the Internet.) You boys seem to always be the first to offer help and assistence (there are others here and I don't mean to leave them out), so I thank you for being there and doing that. I wish I had more patience to be able to do it, but I just don't, so I stay out of it and leave it to you fellas who are more tempermentally suited for such tasks. My hat is off to you, so if no one else says thanks for doing it, I sure do.

As I've mentioned before, leading is related to bullet fit, bullet alloy, bullet hardness, the pressure of the load, barrel twist and the lube being used. Faster barrel twist and higher pressure at some point makes a gas check required but I've yet to find a magic threshold as there are other factors at play.

I've fired enough plain based bullets bhn ~13 loaded to ~40 kpsi @1200-1300 fps loads through revolvers to know that they can be just as accurate as gas checked gas bullets. But I'd also expect the same loads shot through a 1-12 or faster twist or cast from a softer alloy would require the use of a gas check.

I also have a 160 gr plain base bhn ~18 load that shoots as well as my 357 blackhawk can shoot that is likely clocking 1500 fps.

And Elmer Keith wrote a bunch of books about all of that and more and said it back about 1930. And Skeeter Skelton wrote two books about it. And Julian Hatcher wrote several books about it, and Towsend Wheelen wrote books about it, Ed McGivern wrote books about it, and J. Henry FirzGerald wrote about it and both Major Charles Askins and Colonel Charles Askins wrote about it and I could go on and on because this stuff has been known and written about in numerous books, magazines and papers for almost a century now. It is still being written about today.

And some forum menbers take time and carefully explain it to those who don't understand it. I applaud them.

Yes, pure lead will do it, powder coated. Mold fillout will be your biggest issue.

If you get the powder coating right, it'll shoot with no gas cutting or leading without any trouble. Accuracy may or may not be as good as a harder alloy, depending on the load, but it will be as good as you can do with traditional lube, without the fuss.

Fella what wants to cast pure lead ought to jack up the temp to 800*. It'll fill out the mould. Been doing that for a fair while, no problems.

As suggested previously, bullet fit is more significant than alloy, to a point. The type of powder is relevant if one is trying to bump up the velocity as is lube, be it powder coat or whatever. I'm not a PC kinda guy, my pure PB bullets seldom travel more than 1100 fps, paper patched or lubed.

I do run 30:1 alloy upwards of 1800 fps with a gas check and 1400 fps or so without, BP and smokeless both. .25-.50 caliber. The .38 and smaller bullets used for smokeless get my own brand of dry wax lube which is dilute Alox and a dusting of mica/graphite before fully dry. The RCBS .38-150 SWC dribbles out of my 2" Smith around 900 fps with a bit more than average charge, this with the same alloy. Bullseye does the trick.

I don't do HP bullets anymore, but if so disposed that facet of design would have little influence on my chosen path. Got over that when I began choosing placement and penetration over hole size. Soft slow bullets don't hardly slow down for anything.

There was a time however when I was inclined to load the Hornady 148 gr HBWC backwards and forwards. Backwards will decapitate a 4' barracuda if a fella wants to retrieve hooks'n lures expeditiously. No leading from that soft alloy up to about 800-850 fps in the Smith.

The reason why I ask is, My son has a Model 10 4" also he wants to keep in the nightstand on his wife's side. All (over 6 million) Model 4" 10's were regulated for the 158 gr @ around 900-950 fps. The +P's about the same. Buffalo Bore sells those loads. I do not like to buy factory. I would like his wife to practice as much as she can with that gun. I want to push them so they still will be going fast enough at 25 yds. to expand reliably. I have the Speer 158gr SWCHP, but never pushed them that fast. Those are available from another source with Gas Checks. Do I need GC's?

Gibby,

No GC needed, just adds to the expense. Use one of these loads and you will be fine.

7.0gr HS-6
6.4gr AA#5
5.6gr Unique

Don

Thanks, I'll take a look at those load suggestions. That is the burn speed I was entertaining. The newer BE-86 is right in there too. I like HS-6, but it likes Mag primers is my experience.

Gibby, are cast hollow points an option for you? If so, it's pretty easy to get expansion at that velocity or considerably lower, with clip on wheel weight alloy which is a good bit harder than pure lead.

Powder coated pure lead will shoot fine at the level you describe, without leading, but my experience is that a little harder alloy gives better accuracy. If you're using a round nose or moderate flat point bullet, pure lead isn't going to expand much anyway at that speed.

No need for a gas check, especially powder coated.

This was only ~725-750 fps IIRC, cast from wheel weight alloy.

Thanks for all the help.

I have been handloading since I was 14 years old. Even through a long stretch through college. After college, my career was very demanding. I shot a lot. A whole lot. To do this I handloaded. I always wanted to cast my own. I just did not have the time. I have all the books going way back. A couple of people here have offer to help me get started. I am retired now but I still am pretty busy taking care of the spread. I even have a good source of wheel weights. Maybe one of these days.

I shoot mostly handguns by volume. The other day a fine gentleman from the 'fire suggested I visit this casting category because we do not have a "Reloading for handguns" category here. More people with analytical skills an less bullsh!!t here.

They are not available where I live. I shoot pretty soft lead and it has been doing fine for me. But even my supply of soft lead is getting lean. I have started looking to see what I can find.

Scott, with all the traveling you have been doing, you ought to have three 5 gallon buckets full of wheel weights that you took off of cars with Obama bumper stickers in the Wal-Mart parking lot. I get almost a full bucket everytime I go to Wally World. I expect to be able to continue doing that as soon as cars with Hillary for president bumper stickers start showing up.

Darn it Bob, why didn't you tell about that before I left!

Altho, I have been casting for handguns and muzzleloaders for many years,
I have no experience or knowledge of 'powder coating'. What is it, where do I get it and how do I apply it?

Same powder coating that is used on various metal parts. Instead of spraying on a traditional paint, a powdered plastic is applied via static charge and then the powder coat is baked to cure the powder and change it into a hard plastic coating.

You can apply it via a static discharge gun, or "shake and bake". Look in the cast bullet forum for varoius threads that go into more detail.

You can learn all about it HERE