Just wondering what most would consider the minimum size handgun for Black bear and Cougar? Or more directly, would a .357 suffice or would the .44 be more appropriate? What loads would be reasonable in the .357 for either? I'm assuming 125 gr JHP (man-eaters) wouldn't be the first choice.
I'd rather take a .41 mag as a minimum. But I don't see why a good .357 with the right load wouldn't work.
I would think a .357 with 180 cast FN would work fine.
A .357 Mag would not be legal for hunting on Colorado using any load I have looked at.
That said I have carried a .45ACP, .357, 9mm and even a .22LR for defensive purposes. Never felt particularly good about the .22LR ...
That said I have carried a .45ACP, .357, 9mm and even a .22LR for defensive purposes. Never felt particularly good about the .22LR ...
.22 Mag is good. .44 Mag is better. Anything in between is in between. Not referring to legality.
Originally Posted by jigman222
I would think a .357 with 180 cast FN would work fine.
If limited to a 357 the load above would be a good choice or one of the 180 grain loads from Buffalo Bore
Heavy .357 Magnum
Item No. 19A20 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.)
http:/
heavy 357 or heavy 10mm at a min.
Buffalo bore also makes a lower powered .44 hard cast (230 gr?) that is a joy to shoot. ought to be plenty for cats but I wouldn't serviously try bear with it (454 instead)
I don't think anything heavier than a .45 ACP with 230 grain JHPs is really needed, but I used a 5.5" Redhawk in .45 Colt with 300 grain Hornady XTPs at 1000 fps.
I have been present at the kill or taken lions myself on 23 occasions over the last twelve years. Most have been taken with .357 mags with either 125 grain CorBons or 158 grain Corbons. Only one required a second shot. A couple were taken with .45 Colts with factory loads. One was taken with a .30-30. One of our cowboys tried a .32 Magnum and the small female took two close range shots to knock it out of the tree and still required a finisher from a .357 to protect the dogs.
I have not seen as many bears taken (and have never killed one myself). I do know that one treed bear required five shots from a .38 Special to get it out of the tree and a cylinder full of .22 Magnum Rimfires to put a finale to the rodeo. 240 and 260 grain .44 Magnums work well, as do .357s with 180 grain bullets. The only bear that I have seen killed with a rifle was with a .45 Colt in a Model 94 Winchester--it was dead when it hit the ground.
If your hunt is a rare oportunity or a "once in a lifetime" hunt, I would go with a .44 Magnum for bear. For lions, a .357 is sufficient. This presumes that you are familiar with your pistol, use suitable bullets, and that you can place your shots where they need to go.
I have not seen as many bears taken (and have never killed one myself). I do know that one treed bear required five shots from a .38 Special to get it out of the tree and a cylinder full of .22 Magnum Rimfires to put a finale to the rodeo. 240 and 260 grain .44 Magnums work well, as do .357s with 180 grain bullets. The only bear that I have seen killed with a rifle was with a .45 Colt in a Model 94 Winchester--it was dead when it hit the ground.
If your hunt is a rare oportunity or a "once in a lifetime" hunt, I would go with a .44 Magnum for bear. For lions, a .357 is sufficient. This presumes that you are familiar with your pistol, use suitable bullets, and that you can place your shots where they need to go.
A magazine article I wrote several years ago, no data has changed since then so it's still pretty accurate.
Hunting bears with handguns
I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!
When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I�m quite familiar with them.
During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.
We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear�s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.
The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.
This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP�s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of �crumple power� his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.
The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It�s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I�m going to have to shoot him too.
This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it�s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about �back up� guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the �be all-end all� choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it�s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!
There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It�s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!
So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!
The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it�s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don�t mistake me here, I don�t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don�t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.
This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don�t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.
Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don�t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I�ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5� barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4� barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.
The final �sub-category� are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.
Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.
Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the �meplat�. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.
One other thing to consider, don�t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don�t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don�t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.
Don�t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.
Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It�s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.
Don�t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don�t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.
I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!
Hunting bears with handguns
I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!
When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I�m quite familiar with them.
During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.
We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear�s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.
The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.
This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP�s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of �crumple power� his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.
The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It�s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I�m going to have to shoot him too.
This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it�s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about �back up� guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the �be all-end all� choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it�s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!
There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It�s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!
So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!
The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it�s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don�t mistake me here, I don�t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don�t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.
This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don�t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.
Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don�t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I�ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5� barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4� barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.
The final �sub-category� are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.
Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.
Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the �meplat�. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.
One other thing to consider, don�t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don�t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don�t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.
Don�t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.
Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It�s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.
Don�t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don�t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.
I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!
JJ,
Wow.......now that is what I call an informed response. And quite frankly nothing I would dare argue with. Thanks. Something I must confess and didn't clarify is that my question is more to do with possible confrontation with a lion or black bear vs. hunting one. Seems that most everyone else who posted would likely agree with your assessment. I've been leaning towards buying the new 4" Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag. for my hiking gun and for where I will be the only real threats I envision might come from lions or black bears. A 4" GP100 is also being considered but after this read, I'm more inclined to go the Redhawk route. Was hoping to cover both bases (personal protection at home and in the woods) but no gun is right for all things. Just another reason to buy both guns, right?
Thanks again for taking the time.
Wow.......now that is what I call an informed response. And quite frankly nothing I would dare argue with. Thanks. Something I must confess and didn't clarify is that my question is more to do with possible confrontation with a lion or black bear vs. hunting one. Seems that most everyone else who posted would likely agree with your assessment. I've been leaning towards buying the new 4" Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag. for my hiking gun and for where I will be the only real threats I envision might come from lions or black bears. A 4" GP100 is also being considered but after this read, I'm more inclined to go the Redhawk route. Was hoping to cover both bases (personal protection at home and in the woods) but no gun is right for all things. Just another reason to buy both guns, right?
Thanks again for taking the time.
As CH pointed out a 357 is not legal for big game in Colorado. You have to use at least a 44 mag. Of course if you wish to be sporting you could use a contender or an encore in a rifle caliber and be legal,like my 30-06 encore.tom
I have shot a lot of critters with .45 ACP, 9mm, .357 and .44 mags. I LIVE in bear and cougar country and see both a lot. The pucker factor you experience with a bear or cougar staring you down at less than 20 yards is something everyone needs to experience when choosing a handgun for personal defense. I am not talking about the critter in a tree with dogs barking at it. I am talking about the critter than isn't backing down. Although they will work, a 9mm, 45 ACP, .40 Smith or .38 special seems pretty darn insignificant in such a situation. I have been there many times to say the least. They will get the job done, but they aren't going to "anchor" the critter....generally.
You have a millisecond to crumple a critter that means you harm. Basically you get one shot and it may not be perfectly placed due to adrenaline. Here is where the .357 with PROPER 158-180 grain HP bullets works pretty good, not great, but pretty good. As JJ stated, forget hard cast bullets. They are simply full metal jacket bullets in terms of performance.
The .44 magnum and .45 long Colt with 240 or 250 grain HP bullets really shine. The crumple factor is awesome and there is not doubt you made a leathal hit. The big .45's, 480's and 50's are just that, they are big, heavy, cause major flinching and are not for the faint of heart or the occasional hiker/plinker. They are for seasoned handgunners that know how to use them. The biggest badest gun in the world does you no good if you are afraid of it and can't hit a barn with it. Even the .44 is too big for most guys to shoot well. This is when I recommend a GOOD .357 of no less than 4 inches. Better to hit the critter with a decent round than to miss with a big round. It boils down to what gives you the warm fuzzy, within reason. Throw your ego away and be practical. Ask yourself how much your are honestly going to practice with a big gun to get good with it in an intense situation? I am not talking slow fire at the range, but pull that pistol and get it into action and make the shot in a couple of seconds. Shoot the biggest gun you can shoot well, leaving the ego home. My favorite is still the .44 magnum. It always decides the fight for me and I have never felt undergunned. Flinch
You have a millisecond to crumple a critter that means you harm. Basically you get one shot and it may not be perfectly placed due to adrenaline. Here is where the .357 with PROPER 158-180 grain HP bullets works pretty good, not great, but pretty good. As JJ stated, forget hard cast bullets. They are simply full metal jacket bullets in terms of performance.
The .44 magnum and .45 long Colt with 240 or 250 grain HP bullets really shine. The crumple factor is awesome and there is not doubt you made a leathal hit. The big .45's, 480's and 50's are just that, they are big, heavy, cause major flinching and are not for the faint of heart or the occasional hiker/plinker. They are for seasoned handgunners that know how to use them. The biggest badest gun in the world does you no good if you are afraid of it and can't hit a barn with it. Even the .44 is too big for most guys to shoot well. This is when I recommend a GOOD .357 of no less than 4 inches. Better to hit the critter with a decent round than to miss with a big round. It boils down to what gives you the warm fuzzy, within reason. Throw your ego away and be practical. Ask yourself how much your are honestly going to practice with a big gun to get good with it in an intense situation? I am not talking slow fire at the range, but pull that pistol and get it into action and make the shot in a couple of seconds. Shoot the biggest gun you can shoot well, leaving the ego home. My favorite is still the .44 magnum. It always decides the fight for me and I have never felt undergunned. Flinch
flinch, Excellent reply and includes the realistic issue that most people can NOT handle even the 44 mag because they don't practise with it. The 357 with a good round is an excellent cartridge and at the upper end of what the casual shooter is going to realistically handle half way accurately PLUS give them a relatively accurate followup shot. Does my heart good to actually see people get away from the theoretical and into what the average Joe can do.
I am going to disagree somewhat with JJ and Flinch. I haven't killed anywhere the number of bears that JJ has and he didn't say how many lion kills he's been on. This isn't my point. You can kill a lion with damn near anything in my experience. I have never had one give me a lick of trouble when hit.
A friend of mine worked as a damage control contractor for several reservations and killed more than 3000 lions in 50 years. I drew a lot of experience from him and chased a lot of them with him too. I think his bear kill was in the neighborhood of 700.
He prefered to kill them with a rifle. He had a 44 but said that a rifle was much better. My only real point is that there isn't much of a "crumple factor" with any reasonable handgun. As for the 9mm and 40s needing more maintenance that is pure ignorance. The chambering of the gun has little if anything to do with reliability of it. Most of my experience is with Glock handguns, but there are others that are also reliable. I have seen them thrown from helicopters, buried in dirt and about everything else and they still go bang just about every time. Some malfunctions are going to happen- that's why cops are trained extensively to perform malfunction drills.
If I were hunting over hounds, I wouldn't feel the least bit undergunned with my 40 S&W on a lion in a tree. It would work on a bear in a pinch but in my experience, you have to wait a while.
If you want instant results, a high velocity rifle round is the real answer. Some may question why all these mediocre rounds are used for this. The reason is simply weight. A houndsman doesn't want to pack a 7# rifle around on his mule all day when he can get by with a 2# handgun.
For the record, a 180 grain Speer Gold dot out of a 40 S&W does a fantastic job on bighorn sheep, lions and humans. I just may know someone who has personal experience in these matters.
A friend of mine worked as a damage control contractor for several reservations and killed more than 3000 lions in 50 years. I drew a lot of experience from him and chased a lot of them with him too. I think his bear kill was in the neighborhood of 700.
He prefered to kill them with a rifle. He had a 44 but said that a rifle was much better. My only real point is that there isn't much of a "crumple factor" with any reasonable handgun. As for the 9mm and 40s needing more maintenance that is pure ignorance. The chambering of the gun has little if anything to do with reliability of it. Most of my experience is with Glock handguns, but there are others that are also reliable. I have seen them thrown from helicopters, buried in dirt and about everything else and they still go bang just about every time. Some malfunctions are going to happen- that's why cops are trained extensively to perform malfunction drills.
If I were hunting over hounds, I wouldn't feel the least bit undergunned with my 40 S&W on a lion in a tree. It would work on a bear in a pinch but in my experience, you have to wait a while.
If you want instant results, a high velocity rifle round is the real answer. Some may question why all these mediocre rounds are used for this. The reason is simply weight. A houndsman doesn't want to pack a 7# rifle around on his mule all day when he can get by with a 2# handgun.
For the record, a 180 grain Speer Gold dot out of a 40 S&W does a fantastic job on bighorn sheep, lions and humans. I just may know someone who has personal experience in these matters.
Originally Posted by teesh
Just wondering what most would consider the minimum size handgun for Black bear and Cougar? Or more directly, would a .357 suffice or would the .44 be more appropriate?......
For me the minimum would start at the .41 mag with a 6" barrel. I have tried this round with people that are not highly experienced hand gunners and have gotten very good results. Recoil is reasonable and it packs a good punch. One of the worst recoiling handguns that I have ever shot was a Colt Lawman .357 with 4" barrel shooting full power loads. It kicked the daylights out of me. And I can shoot a .44 mag (8-3/8" bbl.) rapid fire & enjoy it.
Like the Flinch mentioned practise until you can draw and fire in about 2 seconds. Until it is second nature with you.
Originally Posted by WyoJoe
For me the minimum would start at the .41 mag with a 6" barrel. I have tried this round with people that are not highly experienced hand gunners and have gotten very good results.
Do you mean that the skill level of your foe influences your cartridge choice?
Some of the comments regarding options are not as prudent as one would think.
Placing yourself in harms way with a false sense of security is not a very wise decision. It's like buying a pre-folded/packed parachute from Ebay and planning to use it in an emergency without checking it out first. Sure you think your safe flying that little plane now cause you have a parachute right?
If you think that buying a gun for bear/lion protection is so important that you must have one to venture into the areas your interested in traveling. Then why go with something that is not a decisive and proven performer. Going into a known problem area( your opinion) with less then the right choice is just silly!
I read and hear people all the time talking about handguns and shotguns for the river in AK or BC where bears frequent the salmon streams. If you really think that the risk is worth the reward you better have a dedicated guy with a gun handy guarding the people fishing. Take turns fishing but somebody better be at the ready if you really think it's a problem that justifes a gun to begin with.
This comes from a guy who has been pinned to the ground and chewed on. With a 44 mag and hot handloads, enough to kill any bear alive. Yet I could not unbutton my coat and get that gun out to use it. Each time I tried to move to get the gun I was shoved down and attacked with great vigor by that bear.
No matter what you choose it must be ready and available, not over your shoulder with a sling, not in a holster, not under your coat, but at the ready. Other then that it's simply a false sense of security. These ideas that having this gun in your backpack, under your coat, over your shoulder just invite trouble and will put you into places you should not be going with that false sense of security.
When I was hit and knocked down from behind the wind was knocked out of me and I could not breath for about 30 seconds. Getting my hands on the gun was not my first priority, getting air into my lungs was. After that blocking the back of my head from the biting was. Then after some time, I cannot measure under the stress of the moment, I was able to think about my revolver. However any movement by me just increased the intensity of the bears aggression. So regardless of the gun you choose, you better decide that it must be at your fingertips in an instant. You cannot fish, cannot daydream, cannot enjoy the moment.
If you seriously consider that the place you're traveling to dictates the use of a gun, then you better make that the priority and act with a military level of preparadness. If you don't think you can or want to use that mindset to enter into the place that worries you, then stay out of there. No firearm you carry will help you when a problem occurs if your not expecting it all the time. Lions don't attack from the front. You will not likely see it coming. They will run up and hit you from behind so fast and with such rage and intensity that you will never draw the gun anyway. With the wind knocked out of you and four 1" teeth stuck into your nack It's a little to late for pulling the gun out of the holster. Do you really trust your friends and or family to shoot at a moving lion or bear that is on top of you? You want a bullet impacting and penetrating clean through an animal on top of you? Hard cast and solids seem quite a bit less attractive in this situation. At least to me. Actually the skill set of the shooter in a huge panic seems a bit risky as well. Bears can do the same but usually provide better survival time lines, or in other words just a bit more notice. Still not with enough time to unshoulder and aim a rifle or shotgun, or dig out from under your buttoned or zipped coat to use a gun.
When you think that the area your traveling in is going to be a problem, then you better go with the intent that you better have the gun in your hands. Otherwise it's just a pound and a half of metal weighing you down. This is a fact, coming from a guy who has lived through it once, and seen the problems several times.
Far to many people have some kind of gun and feel invincible. This gets them into places they should never have gone anyway because they feel safe with a very misguided sense of security.
Placing yourself in harms way with a false sense of security is not a very wise decision. It's like buying a pre-folded/packed parachute from Ebay and planning to use it in an emergency without checking it out first. Sure you think your safe flying that little plane now cause you have a parachute right?
If you think that buying a gun for bear/lion protection is so important that you must have one to venture into the areas your interested in traveling. Then why go with something that is not a decisive and proven performer. Going into a known problem area( your opinion) with less then the right choice is just silly!
I read and hear people all the time talking about handguns and shotguns for the river in AK or BC where bears frequent the salmon streams. If you really think that the risk is worth the reward you better have a dedicated guy with a gun handy guarding the people fishing. Take turns fishing but somebody better be at the ready if you really think it's a problem that justifes a gun to begin with.
This comes from a guy who has been pinned to the ground and chewed on. With a 44 mag and hot handloads, enough to kill any bear alive. Yet I could not unbutton my coat and get that gun out to use it. Each time I tried to move to get the gun I was shoved down and attacked with great vigor by that bear.
No matter what you choose it must be ready and available, not over your shoulder with a sling, not in a holster, not under your coat, but at the ready. Other then that it's simply a false sense of security. These ideas that having this gun in your backpack, under your coat, over your shoulder just invite trouble and will put you into places you should not be going with that false sense of security.
When I was hit and knocked down from behind the wind was knocked out of me and I could not breath for about 30 seconds. Getting my hands on the gun was not my first priority, getting air into my lungs was. After that blocking the back of my head from the biting was. Then after some time, I cannot measure under the stress of the moment, I was able to think about my revolver. However any movement by me just increased the intensity of the bears aggression. So regardless of the gun you choose, you better decide that it must be at your fingertips in an instant. You cannot fish, cannot daydream, cannot enjoy the moment.
If you seriously consider that the place you're traveling to dictates the use of a gun, then you better make that the priority and act with a military level of preparadness. If you don't think you can or want to use that mindset to enter into the place that worries you, then stay out of there. No firearm you carry will help you when a problem occurs if your not expecting it all the time. Lions don't attack from the front. You will not likely see it coming. They will run up and hit you from behind so fast and with such rage and intensity that you will never draw the gun anyway. With the wind knocked out of you and four 1" teeth stuck into your nack It's a little to late for pulling the gun out of the holster. Do you really trust your friends and or family to shoot at a moving lion or bear that is on top of you? You want a bullet impacting and penetrating clean through an animal on top of you? Hard cast and solids seem quite a bit less attractive in this situation. At least to me. Actually the skill set of the shooter in a huge panic seems a bit risky as well. Bears can do the same but usually provide better survival time lines, or in other words just a bit more notice. Still not with enough time to unshoulder and aim a rifle or shotgun, or dig out from under your buttoned or zipped coat to use a gun.
When you think that the area your traveling in is going to be a problem, then you better go with the intent that you better have the gun in your hands. Otherwise it's just a pound and a half of metal weighing you down. This is a fact, coming from a guy who has lived through it once, and seen the problems several times.
Far to many people have some kind of gun and feel invincible. This gets them into places they should never have gone anyway because they feel safe with a very misguided sense of security.
That is absolutely correct, I have spent my entire 61 years in some of the most densely populated Grizzly country on Earth and carried various guns while working/recreating during this time.
I have a Ruger Redhawk 5.5"sts .44 Mag with 250 gr. warmish loads, but, never bother with it as it is too bulky, heavy to backpack and slow to get to. I also have a custom P-64 -.375 H&H with a 20"tube, good sights and 300 NPs which I carry IN MY HANDS anywhere that I consider a gun is needed.
I have has about 60 Grizzly encounters, have had colleagues mauled, but, never anyone under my supervision/protection and I think that JJHaack is totally righton. The BEST weapon is controlled fear, sharp awareness and a gun that you are utterly familiar with and CAN shoot.
I have a Ruger Redhawk 5.5"sts .44 Mag with 250 gr. warmish loads, but, never bother with it as it is too bulky, heavy to backpack and slow to get to. I also have a custom P-64 -.375 H&H with a 20"tube, good sights and 300 NPs which I carry IN MY HANDS anywhere that I consider a gun is needed.
I have has about 60 Grizzly encounters, have had colleagues mauled, but, never anyone under my supervision/protection and I think that JJHaack is totally righton. The BEST weapon is controlled fear, sharp awareness and a gun that you are utterly familiar with and CAN shoot.
Thanks to all for the comments and opinions. Its helped in selecting my weapon of choice and is very much appreciated.
Good comments from JJ and Flinch! Unfortunately, I shoot a .357mag better than a .44mag and a 4" barrel is more "packable" than a 6" barrel. But then again I'm not hunting, but more of a "woods gun" type use.
Leo
Leo
Absolutely agree with JJHACK. Nicely said.
There's basically 4 conditions.
Adequately armed, mentally ready enough to take useful action.
Empty handed and scared smart.
Empty handed and clueless.
Armed but lulled by a false sense of security.
I prefer the first, I can get by with the second, I want no part of the last two. There is no replacement for having your wits about you, being observant, and making smart choices.
Tom
There's basically 4 conditions.
Adequately armed, mentally ready enough to take useful action.
Empty handed and scared smart.
Empty handed and clueless.
Armed but lulled by a false sense of security.
I prefer the first, I can get by with the second, I want no part of the last two. There is no replacement for having your wits about you, being observant, and making smart choices.
Tom
Originally Posted by teesh
Just wondering what most would consider the minimum size handgun for Black bear and Cougar? Or more directly, would a .357 suffice or would the .44 be more appropriate? What loads would be reasonable in the .357 for either? I'm assuming 125 gr JHP (man-eaters) wouldn't be the first choice.
_____________________________________________________________
Yep..357 magnum will easily kill black bear and mtn lion in the hands of a decent hangunner...proper bullets, and acceptable range...and good initial hit...with follow up SA as required.
A reliable S&W wheelgun N frame is preferred by me and has served me well on many bear and lion kills when I didn't kill them with a well placed arrow....
My input doesn't include night attacks when one is camped and a black bear want's ther jerky you foolishly stashed under your pillow ..or you used bacon grease for your hair..:)..:)...or charging or wounded critters at close quarters..:) Jim
I have only shot one bear with a handgun. It was not by choice but by necessity. I was at a friend's home and a big black bear decided it wanted to come in for tea. The only gun in the house was a government colt 45ACP. We lost track of the bear, I opened the door to see where the bear was and it stood up rght in front of me. I put four in the chest and three in the head of 230 gr hardball. Distance five feet, heart rate 200. It will get the job done, but I don't know if I would reccomend it. I butchered the bear and it ate really well. That was 20 years ago and I have not repeated the event again
Randy
Randy
medicman,
You have cogently conveyed the reason why I have chosen an S&W 1911 .45 ACP as my trail gun. While I fish where there is no griz, black bears are more than common. I appreciate the idea of a powerful cartridge in a handgun design that facilitates easy deployment and incredibly fast and accurate follow-up shots. While a .41 Mag would be better, I am not willing to accept the trade-offs of greater length and width, increased recoil, and not as quick follow-up shots!
To me, it is most difficult to eliminate the venerable 1911 handgun in .45 ACP as the single best handgun for nearly all applications, from target practice/plinking to self-defense, to trail use.
When was the 1911 invented and who invented it???
Just kidding!!!
You have cogently conveyed the reason why I have chosen an S&W 1911 .45 ACP as my trail gun. While I fish where there is no griz, black bears are more than common. I appreciate the idea of a powerful cartridge in a handgun design that facilitates easy deployment and incredibly fast and accurate follow-up shots. While a .41 Mag would be better, I am not willing to accept the trade-offs of greater length and width, increased recoil, and not as quick follow-up shots!
To me, it is most difficult to eliminate the venerable 1911 handgun in .45 ACP as the single best handgun for nearly all applications, from target practice/plinking to self-defense, to trail use.
When was the 1911 invented and who invented it???
Just kidding!!!
JJ,
I'd love to know any autopsy results you found on those bear shot by cops with their duty guns. I'm assuming the chest hits just lacked penetration?
SOS
I'd love to know any autopsy results you found on those bear shot by cops with their duty guns. I'm assuming the chest hits just lacked penetration?
SOS
MEDICMAN - " I have only shot one bear with a handgun. It was not by choice but by necessity. I was at a friend's home..."
Medicman, where were you?
L.W.
Medicman, where were you?
L.W.
Yes, that is correct, very limited penetration with expanding bullets, and with the round nose FMJ bullets they just pushed the important things out of the way and did little internal damage.
Mando, as far as the 45ACP and the personal feelings you have, I wish you well. Sometimes deep rooted emotional feelings are very hard to overcome, even for an intelligent person with a lot of common sense. The object for most is not to kill the attacking animal eventually but to crumple it on the spot. Re-read the part of my prior post where they used a 45ACP. It killed bears, but only after they lived long enough to chew and claw a person to bits. The penetration and tissue disruption was not in the same league as 41 and 44 mags or the 45 long colt and Casull. I also think it prudent to accept that your gonna get a single shot or at the very most two before contact is made. Speaking only for myself I want significant damage internal to reduce the time an animal like a bear has to disrupt my soft tissue.
I'm not sure what big game you have seen shot with a 45ACP, I have seen plenty shot with it. You have to remove the concept that an animal will react like a human when hit. A human hit anyplace with a 45ACP quits the fight right now. A 200 lb deer shot in the chest will run well over 100 yards and live for a long time. A 450lb black bear will not even react to the hit and leave you with the feeling you missed him. About the time you realize that he will be on you and your gun will have been knocked flying out of your hands.
Sometimes our emotions get the best of us, they can even screw with our logic and good common sense. I'm just as guilty at times of this character flaw. I wish you well with a 45ACP, but nothing you can shoot from that gun will really crumple a big black bear they way you will be hoping it does. Re-Read that article I wrote, most of the cops also had significant dissapointment in it's performance after they shot bears.
It's your call. For the most part people who prepare at all are never bothered or need the gun anyway. So odds are slim and none that you will actually put it to use. Even in the unlikely event that you do need it, it's a long shot better then a sharp stick!
Mando, as far as the 45ACP and the personal feelings you have, I wish you well. Sometimes deep rooted emotional feelings are very hard to overcome, even for an intelligent person with a lot of common sense. The object for most is not to kill the attacking animal eventually but to crumple it on the spot. Re-read the part of my prior post where they used a 45ACP. It killed bears, but only after they lived long enough to chew and claw a person to bits. The penetration and tissue disruption was not in the same league as 41 and 44 mags or the 45 long colt and Casull. I also think it prudent to accept that your gonna get a single shot or at the very most two before contact is made. Speaking only for myself I want significant damage internal to reduce the time an animal like a bear has to disrupt my soft tissue.
I'm not sure what big game you have seen shot with a 45ACP, I have seen plenty shot with it. You have to remove the concept that an animal will react like a human when hit. A human hit anyplace with a 45ACP quits the fight right now. A 200 lb deer shot in the chest will run well over 100 yards and live for a long time. A 450lb black bear will not even react to the hit and leave you with the feeling you missed him. About the time you realize that he will be on you and your gun will have been knocked flying out of your hands.
Sometimes our emotions get the best of us, they can even screw with our logic and good common sense. I'm just as guilty at times of this character flaw. I wish you well with a 45ACP, but nothing you can shoot from that gun will really crumple a big black bear they way you will be hoping it does. Re-Read that article I wrote, most of the cops also had significant dissapointment in it's performance after they shot bears.
It's your call. For the most part people who prepare at all are never bothered or need the gun anyway. So odds are slim and none that you will actually put it to use. Even in the unlikely event that you do need it, it's a long shot better then a sharp stick!
Originally Posted by jbuck
I'd rather take a .41 mag as a minimum. But I don't see why a good .357 with the right load wouldn't work.
Similar to my thinking!
I'd choose hard-cast boolits with stout charges of powder behind them. Whether DA's or single-actions, my sidearm would have 4 to 5 1/2 inch barrels.
But how proficient are you with your piece? After putting together your woods-arm, are you going to put a couple thousand rounds through it to be come "good?"
As for me? I need to get busy!
Originally Posted by teesh
Just wondering what most would consider the minimum size handgun for Black bear and Cougar? Or more directly, would a .357 suffice or would the .44 be more appropriate? What loads would be reasonable in the .357 for either? I'm assuming 125 gr JHP (man-eaters) wouldn't be the first choice.
Cougars? 22RF are quite popular with outfitters, many like the 32 H&R, or 38 Spec. 357 is overkill.
Bears? 41 Mag is about right, 44 mag, 45 LC, 44 Spec all work just fine.......keep in mind, the odds of catching up with a 150 lb bear is far greater than a 350+ pounder.....
When I used to go bear hunting with some outfitter/houndsman buddies, I generally packed a 357 with 158gr hard cast or Sierra hollowpoints--but I never had occasion to try them out......
Casey
Dear JJHack,
I wish I were able to take exception to a single thing you wrote, but in all honesty I cannot. I know you're absolutely right. I have been hunting long enough to know that unless struck by a decent well-placed bullet, they do not easily give up the ghost! I wish I could tell you I have not tracked wounded animals, but I cannot write that either.
I wish S&W would build a five-shot .41 Mag on the L Frame. I'd be in hog heaven!
Thanks for your advice!!!
Merry Christmas,
Mando
Originally Posted by JJHACK
Yes, that is correct, very limited penetration with expanding bullets, and with the round nose FMJ bullets they just pushed the important things out of the way and did little internal damage.
Mando, as far as the 45ACP and the personal feelings you have, I wish you well. Sometimes deep rooted emotional feelings are very hard to overcome, even for an intelligent person with a lot of common sense. The object for most is not to kill the attacking animal eventually but to crumple it on the spot. Re-read the part of my prior post where they used a 45ACP. It killed bears, but only after they lived long enough to chew and claw a person to bits. The penetration and tissue disruption was not in the same league as 41 and 44 mags or the 45 long colt and Casull. I also think it prudent to accept that your gonna get a single shot or at the very most two before contact is made. Speaking only for myself I want significant damage internal to reduce the time an animal like a bear has to disrupt my soft tissue.
I'm not sure what big game you have seen shot with a 45ACP, I have seen plenty shot with it. You have to remove the concept that an animal will react like a human when hit. A human hit anyplace with a 45ACP quits the fight right now. A 200 lb deer shot in the chest will run well over 100 yards and live for a long time. A 450lb black bear will not even react to the hit and leave you with the feeling you missed him. About the time you realize that he will be on you and your gun will have been knocked flying out of your hands.
Sometimes our emotions get the best of us, they can even screw with our logic and good common sense. I'm just as guilty at times of this character flaw. I wish you well with a 45ACP, but nothing you can shoot from that gun will really crumple a big black bear they way you will be hoping it does. Re-Read that article I wrote, most of the cops also had significant dissapointment in it's performance after they shot bears.
It's your call. For the most part people who prepare at all are never bothered or need the gun anyway. So odds are slim and none that you will actually put it to use. Even in the unlikely event that you do need it, it's a long shot better then a sharp stick!
Mando, as far as the 45ACP and the personal feelings you have, I wish you well. Sometimes deep rooted emotional feelings are very hard to overcome, even for an intelligent person with a lot of common sense. The object for most is not to kill the attacking animal eventually but to crumple it on the spot. Re-read the part of my prior post where they used a 45ACP. It killed bears, but only after they lived long enough to chew and claw a person to bits. The penetration and tissue disruption was not in the same league as 41 and 44 mags or the 45 long colt and Casull. I also think it prudent to accept that your gonna get a single shot or at the very most two before contact is made. Speaking only for myself I want significant damage internal to reduce the time an animal like a bear has to disrupt my soft tissue.
I'm not sure what big game you have seen shot with a 45ACP, I have seen plenty shot with it. You have to remove the concept that an animal will react like a human when hit. A human hit anyplace with a 45ACP quits the fight right now. A 200 lb deer shot in the chest will run well over 100 yards and live for a long time. A 450lb black bear will not even react to the hit and leave you with the feeling you missed him. About the time you realize that he will be on you and your gun will have been knocked flying out of your hands.
Sometimes our emotions get the best of us, they can even screw with our logic and good common sense. I'm just as guilty at times of this character flaw. I wish you well with a 45ACP, but nothing you can shoot from that gun will really crumple a big black bear they way you will be hoping it does. Re-Read that article I wrote, most of the cops also had significant dissapointment in it's performance after they shot bears.
It's your call. For the most part people who prepare at all are never bothered or need the gun anyway. So odds are slim and none that you will actually put it to use. Even in the unlikely event that you do need it, it's a long shot better then a sharp stick!
I wish I were able to take exception to a single thing you wrote, but in all honesty I cannot. I know you're absolutely right. I have been hunting long enough to know that unless struck by a decent well-placed bullet, they do not easily give up the ghost! I wish I could tell you I have not tracked wounded animals, but I cannot write that either.
I wish S&W would build a five-shot .41 Mag on the L Frame. I'd be in hog heaven!
Thanks for your advice!!!
Merry Christmas,
Mando
my very minuim would be 41 mag and would prefer the 44 mag if given choice move to 475 linebaugh and guranteed job done unless bad shot
Whatever you use, make it count - for your family's sake, don't p*ss off the bear.
Originally Posted by Leanwolf
MEDICMAN - " I have only shot one bear with a handgun. It was not by choice but by necessity. I was at a friend's home..."
Medicman, where were you?
L.W.
Medicman, where were you?
L.W.
I was outside of Elie (query spelling) Minnesota. It was at a friend's home and he was at work. I actually live in NW Ontario now.
Randy
Thanks, Medicman. Reason I asked was I know a man who had the same thing happen to him up in the high Sierra of Calif. Thought you might coincidentally be my friend.
L.W.
L.W.
Originally Posted by JJHACK
...Sometimes our emotions get the best of us, they can even screw with our logic and good common sense. I'm just as guilty at times of this character flaw. I wish you well with a 45ACP, but nothing you can shoot from that gun will really crumple a big black bear they way you will be hoping it does. Re-Read that article I wrote, most of the cops also had significant dissapointment in it's performance after they shot bears...
Yes, emotions do get in the way of reason on this subject. I've been butting heads with internet ninjas on this topic for years. JJHACK, Kutenay, I appreciate what y'all have had to say on this thread.
I've had a lot of "bear encounters". I would estimate the number at somewhere between 40 and 60 over 40 years of back country hiking, fishing, and hunting. Some have been very close, as in being able to smell the bear's breath. Because almost all occurred in Canada's mountain parks, I was unarmed for most of them. Being educated about bears was/is what saved my fat @ss. Now I live in Wisconsin and hunt, hike and fish without fear because 1) I can now carry a handgun openly in the woods and 2) there ain't that many bears here.
I'm not a bear hunting expert. The only black bear I've ever killed died 30 years ago, and I shot it in my friend's garden in the Swan Hills under an agricultural protection permit, using an army surplus 303. But I've gone through the National Parks bear course, and I've killed a number of deer and hogs with handguns, and I've got access to a lot of data on the performance of handguns on human targets thru my medical and LE connections. For good measure, I've spent a lot of time over the years researching actual handgun performance on bears, mostly because I like bears and I like hunting with handguns.
Everything I've experienced in bear country, and the sum of knowledge I've accumulated about handgun GSW's lines up pretty straight with what JJHACK has posted. I've not been mauled personally (sorry about that, JJ, sucked to be you!), but I've witnessed the effects of a bear mauling on two occasions in backcountry, and several more times in the hospital. (That doesn't count the steel outhouse in the Kananaskis that I watched a juvenile grizzly crumple up like an empty Budweiser can, BTW...)
For handgun hunting purposes on bear, I would be willing to use any caliber from the .41 Magnum on up, not including the .45 ACP (or God forbid the .45 GAP). The .45 ACP's statistical performance on human targets in officer-involved shootings isn't that much better than the 9mm, and is outshone by the newest factory ammo in the .40 S&W. I happen to carry a .45 ACP as my off-duty gun most of the time, but I have no illusions about it being the 'ultimate' round. I carry a 1911 because I like the ergonomics, I shoot it well, and BTW, I carry the fastest, heaviest ammo I can buy. Even then I expect to have to put multiple rounds into an adversary if I have to finish a fight. I have several cases in my files of felons who absorbed 4 or more rounds of .45 ACP in the chest and kept on fighting.
In truth, the only rounds that really have DRT potential fire projectiles of significant mass at significant velocities. These are almost all "magnum" calibers. We're talking 230+ grains at 1100+ fps, and in truth, I like 1300 fps better, and I like 1400 fps a LOT better. In an autoloading pistol I think a hot 10mm would be minimally acceptable, but a .460 Rowland would be a lot better. A good double-action revolver with a 4- to 6-inch barrel chambered in .44 Magnum (or possibly .44 Special, if you handload) or .45 Colt is ideal. I prefer S&W N-frames to the big Rugers, but that's quibbling. I like the .357 Magnum and have taken several deer with this caliber, but it would not be my preference for bear or lion. Still, as JJ says it will do with a good 158 gr bullet at 1300 fps or a 180 gr pill at 1150 fps, I have no reason to argue otherwiwse.
I lived through the whole hardcast bullet fad and survived, and managed to harvest every animal I shot with those dang things, thought it involved a lot of blood trail tracking sometimes. I cast my bullets soft now, 1:20 to 1:30 alloys (tin:lead), mostly. I still like the way LBT-WFN profile bullets work on game though in these soft alloys, but a Keith-style SWC may be as good. Soft lead bullets work very, very well on game (and people). I've grown to mistrust Cor-Bon ammunition over the years, but their new DPX ammunition may win me over. We shall see. I've seen very good performance on deer with .44 and .45 caliber Speer Gold Dot HP bullets and there's nothing there to suggest they wouldn't work well on bear or lion as well.
Fact is that bears are big, strong, determined animals. If you think you will have to deter one with a firearm, it had better be a powerful firearm. This means a serious rifle or a slug gun, not a handgun. If you are very skilled with a big bore handgun, you might have the opportunity to stop a charging bear, but I wouldn't take those odds to Vegas.
Used to catch bear and lion for clients, with hounds. They were treed, holed, or ledged up.
For bear,45lc, 41 or 44 mag , 30-30 better (more accuracy)
For lion 9mm, 357, 45lc. Even had a guy shoot one with 375H&H, pin hole in, pin hole out. Don't know why, but never had a one shot kill with 223.
For bear,45lc, 41 or 44 mag , 30-30 better (more accuracy)
For lion 9mm, 357, 45lc. Even had a guy shoot one with 375H&H, pin hole in, pin hole out. Don't know why, but never had a one shot kill with 223.
Very spot on review regarding the effectiveness of the 9's, 45's and the .40's......tough for many to accept the order in which you listed their effectiveness. The ballistics are indisputable, as are the many records compiled by those who are paid to closely monitor such activities, of which you made mention.
As to the original question...not sure where I'd draw the line as to a minimum, but I carry a 629 4in. with handloads consisting of 300gr. WFNHC's with a MV of 1,250 fps. This way, concerning myself with the "is this enough gun" question doesn't take up the precious few moments I might need to act accordingly.
As to the original question...not sure where I'd draw the line as to a minimum, but I carry a 629 4in. with handloads consisting of 300gr. WFNHC's with a MV of 1,250 fps. This way, concerning myself with the "is this enough gun" question doesn't take up the precious few moments I might need to act accordingly.
Originally Posted by Leanwolf
Thanks, Medicman. Reason I asked was I know a man who had the same thing happen to him up in the high Sierra of Calif. Thought you might coincidentally be my friend.
L.W.
L.W.
He sounds like a good man to have as a friend.
I lived in Alberta in the 70's and did quite a bit of vertical hunting. Mountains are some pretty special are they not?
Randy the flat lander