"The" Standard - 24hourcampfire

OK, so this is pretty boring. Arguably, within different categories there are certain brands of stuff that everyone seems to compare the others to. A .30-06, leupold, Remington, partitions, etc, etc.
 
 That said, how could you go wrong with a Remington .30-06 shooting partitions and topped with a Leupold of choice?
 
 Like I said, not too exciting but tough to beat!
 
 Of course, hanging around here as corrupted me badly enough that I'll likely never own/shoot this combination (grin). Close though -- substitute a Ruger MkII for the Remington...
 
 It's my wife's rifle, REALLY!

Wellllll,I'd tell ya'. But I love ya',so I'll spare ya'...............

I always figured if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Kinda like wanting a new vehicle. Once you get it into your mind, that old one seems like it won't run another mile. Or like looking for a new wife, but I better not go there

OK, so I'm now shooting a SS SUCKS 338 Ultra in a McMillan with a funky paint job, spitting out blue bullets! Shows you how practical I've become!
 
 Of course it has half the equation: Rem and Leupold! Can't stray too far (grin)!

Well I have been severely corrupted by the likes of Big Stick, Flinch and a few others with all their custom rifles and such. However just last week I was thinking how nice it would be to break out my trusty old Remington 30.06, that just happens to be wearing a Leupold and use it exclusively this next season. Now granted it now wears a McMillan stock and a Timney trigger...I didn't say I was cured.

Things could be worse, you could be shooting 2 Rugers or a Savage. Flinch

Muley Stalker,
 Interesting post. I was saying the very same thing the other day to a hunting and reloading buddy of mine. We are both Quality Engineers and we were talking about benchmarks and quality standards.
 
 Bullets - the benchmark seems to be Nosler Partitions. When field performance is discussed the results are always measured against Partitions.
 
 Scopes - when it comes to reliability any scoped is compared against Leupold and especially the Var-X III.
 
 Cartridge chambering - no doubt the benchmark here is the 30-06. While we all probably yawn at the thought of the 30-06. We all spend time justifying why our particular cartridge is better than the 30-06.
 
 Rifle brand - here the water gets a little muddy. I think it really depends on what era or generation you are from. My Dad and Grandfather would swear the benchmark would have to be a Winchester Model 70. For me, I would say that it is the Remington 700.
 
 So as Muley Stalker stated, if you had a Winchester model 70 or Remington 700 in 30-06 with a Leupold scope and shot Nosler Partitions why would you need anything else unless you were a R&D engineer?
 
 Probably because as the Mossy Oak commercial say, "It's more than a passion, it is an Obsession!" All the facets of the hunt are what fuels us and makes us who we are. The "cabin fever" season would be pretty boring as well with out all the discussions trying to agree with or disagree with the above mentioned benchmarks.
 
 C-ROY

The 30-06 lacks sex appeal compared to more modern numbers. But, just for a reality check, look at this comparison to the favorite son of the campfire, the .257 Wby.
 
 This is as fair a comparison I can objectively make. Apples to Apples I would say. Barnes XLC BT top loads for each from Barnes #3.
 
 .257 100gr XLC BT @ 3756 fps:
 Max PBR for 10" tgt 440 yds, zeroed at 375yds.
 
 Range Velocity Energy
 (yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
 100, 3483, 2694
 200, 3227, 2312
 300, 2985, 1978
 400, 2755, 1685
 500, 2537, 1429
 
 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
 .308 180gr XLC BT at 2965 fps:
 Max PBR for 10 " tgt 375 yds, zeroed at 320yds
 
 Range Velocity Energy
 (yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
 100, 2790, 3110
 200, 2621, 2747
 300, 2460, 2418
 400, 2304, 2123
 500, 2155, 1856
 
 When loaded to it's potential, with modern components, the "feeble" old warhorse can deliver over a ton of killing power at 400 yards. With a Max PBR of around 375 yards for a 10" target.
 
 Could have somethin to do with it still being the yardstick against which most big game cartridges are compared.
 
 I don't find the old cartridges boring, but I do find many rifles rather boring.
 
 MM

You couldn't, unless you were hunting Big bears, Cape Buffalo, Elephant, etc..........
 
 Blaine

MM,
 
 What length barrel allows 2965fps with a 180gr bullet out of a 30-06? I always thought 2800fps was pushing it.
 
 BTW, I think the nut behind the rifle counts for way more than the actual chambering. My .02c...

Barnes #3 indicates 24". Charge is 64 gr of MRP for 2965 fps with the XLC.
 
 An interesting comparison, the Barnes 180gr XBT UNCOATED. Top load is 2799fps with 59gr of RL19.
 
 The blue coating aparently makes a big difference. Most of the coated bullets get 150-200fps more velocity compared to the nekkid bullet of same size/weight.
 
 MM

With the .257 Wby 100gr XLC, fastest is 3756fps with 76gr RL25.
 
 Same bullet, but uncoated, fastest load is 3528fps with 72gr RL22.
 
 24" barrel.
 
 MM

Muley Stalker,
 
 Sorry about going off the rails, of your original topic.
 
 MM

I like the fact that the 100gr X arrives with the speed at 400yds,that the 30cal does at 400. Also like the way that bullet works at those impact velocities.
 
 For a standard,I'd have to say the 7-08 and the 120 or 140 XBT is where I'd like to start and I'll happily strap a Leupold on top.
 
 The Pimp has Barnes #3 up at his house,what does it grant the 7-08 with a 140XLC,as far as initial launch speeds?............

Flinch if I were stuck with Rugers or Savages I'd start bowhunting again. The very thought upsets my stomach.

Stick,
 
 The 257Wby has speed in spades....I THINK that is where the MOJO comes from.
 
 OK, 7mm-08, 140grXLC fasteset load is 2970fps with 51.5gr H380....24" pipe.
 
 Max charge of RL15 is 45gr, for 2863fps.
 
 While I'm at it,
 
 .284Win, 140grXLC fastest load is 3050fps, 60.5gr RL22, 24" bbl.
 
 7mmRemMag, fastest is 3296fps, 72gr RL22, 24" bbl
 
 I've got a box of .338 185gr XLC BT here. Gonna sail some over the chrony in my 26" .338WinMag. Barnes fastest for them is 3303fps over 77.5gr Win760 and 24" bbl.....I will be loading RL15. Barnes lists 3260fps for 69.5gr RL15. If that is close, I expect around 3300 from the 26" pipe on mine.
 
 MM

I really think the 2965 from a 180 grain XLC in a 24" barrel is optimistic at normal pressure limits. The blue coating does reduce friction, but according the actual pressure tests accomplished by OKShooter, this reduction in friction just makes the XLCs about the same as conventionally jacketed bullets in that regard.
 
 Blaine

Are those the corrected speeds or what they published and had to retract or amend??
 
 Just curious!
 
 Mike

Blaine,
 
 I don't have any pressure testing equipment myself. But shooting moly-coated190gr Sierra Matchkings from my 26" 30-06 over 63gr RL-22 yields 2903 fps. No signs of pressure whatsoever.
 
 Someone with quickload ran that combination and I believe it indicated a pressure of 62K psi. It was definitely in the safe range.
 
 Based on my experiences with the slick moly bullets, I do not doubt that Barnes loads are achievable within standard pressure. but I'm guessing a longer pressure curve with a heavy charge of slower powder would probably beat the hell out of a semiauto action designed for milspec ammo.
 
 MM

ROTR,
 
 My Barnes #3 is of the third printing. The 30-06 data looks identical to the corrections that Barnes had posted some time ago on their website.
 
 So I will say they are correct data.
 
 The 180gr XBT max charge of MRP is 57gr for 2789fps.
 The 180grXLC BT max chg of MRP is 64gr for 2965fps.
 
 Only difference is the coating.
 
 
 MM

MM,
 
 I wasn't knocking the '06(too hard). I just was commenting that I like how a nice impact speed,works in harmony with a robust bullet.
 
 The 2863fps figure is pretty close to on the mark,as to what my 7-08 tubes do with that projectile. I don't recall a barrel cracking the 2900fps barrier and Re-15 is my propellant of choice(ACCURACY).
 
 I really love the 120XBT in the 7mmRemmag at 3500fps. That is a fantastic marriage.
 
 Be curious to hear how your 338 pans out for you,in that 26" tube................

thanks MM I was just wondering...It's kinda scary to think they might let some bad info out!!
 
 Mike

Back when I was guarding embassies, we got well educated on the benefits of velocity in all manner of impact weapons. The takeaway that always sticks
 in my mind is this: doubling the weight of the projectile (bullet, club, fist)doubles the impact energy. Doubling the velocity, quadruples the impact energy.
 
 The 257, as you indicated, hits with about the same velocity at 400 yards, as the '06 at 100 yards. I'm a believer that high velocity impacts do crazy things to the central nervous system that ballistic tables cannot really indicate.
 
 My admittedly "book" studies of the .257Wby/100grXLC, have me clearly seeing what all the rave is about. It appears to be about the most practical combination of attributes to make a flat shooting, hard hitting, user friendly hunting rifle.
 
 But you must know by now that I will generally chime in with something favorable when the '06 is a topic (grin)
 
 MM

I hear you ROTR,
 
 I will back off 5 grains from max and work up, as always.
 
 It is nice to know there is a potential for those velocities.
 
 Generally, I've found the manuals to be pretty close, if compensation for my actual barrel lenth is figured in.
 
 MM

Gives me a belly ache too Sky. Flinch

Flinch,
 
 You was ALWAYS a 257Wby Slut,but have just now started coming outta the closet.
 
 Tell me that liberation don't feel great? I got that feelin' every time I sold or traded a 270!................(grin)

Muley,
 
 One out of three ain't bad. (grin)
 
 I would go with the Rem 700, but I don't own and never will own a 30-06 and most already know my views on the scope you listed [Linked Image]

My pick would be the 300 win mag versus the 30-06. It simply outperforms the 06 in so many ways, for the way and distances I hunt.
 
 I like speed which equates to flatter shooting.
 
 I am also a Ballistic Tips fan and never cared for partitions as they simply aren't as accurate as the BT's. Since I hunt to 650 yards, on occasion, I want the added accuracy of the BT's over that of the partitions.
 
 On a side note I use a 7mm mag and 120gr bullets at a measured velocity of 3635 FPS with a 24" barrel. For those that have a love for energy levels it produces some amazing energy levels. I am not convinced that energy levels alone kill as well as bullet construction and the geometrics of the bullet, but thats another thread.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Don: I see MM posted that he can attain 2903 with the 190 grain bullet in a 30/06, that is pretty close to some of the factory stuff for the 300 and even some handloads, I have seen 3019 for factory and have attained 3050 on average from my 300 win mag so his 30/06 is not too bad.
 And one could get a 30/06 probably cheaper than our 300 Win Mags.
 Bill
 Typo fixed.

Partsman,
 
 I've puked a lot of data here. For clarification, 2903 fps is the velocity I'm getting with 190gr moly coated Sierra MKs over 63gr RL22, from 26" 30-06.
 
 MM

Thanks, guess I typed faster than I was thinking.

Don,
 
 I'm surprised the 300WinMag gives any measurable advantage over a 30-06 in the PA woods you described over on the optics board.
 
 I grew up in central and eastern Montana in some of the same area Big Sky lives and hunts. Even in that open country, the muleys I took were all between 30 - 150 yards.
 
 My style of hunting that terrain was generally working in and out of draws along a ridgeline on foot. Deer generally flush from the brush in the draws. The thing that always impressed me about the muley bucks, is how they tend to stay in place when the does scatter. It paid big dividends to look very closely through the cover where the does bolted. I've shot more than one buck while he was lying down.
 
 Back then, my hunting rifle was a .243, spitting my handloaded 100gr Hornady spire pt, over 43gr IMR 4831.
 
 MM

I've owned and used both the 257 weatherby and the 7mag. When loaded with like weights of bullet,I've yet to see a differance in the way they kill after numerous kills with both. On animals ranging from antelope to elk. The weatherby just cost more to shoot.

That is a curious statement,to shoot like weight projectiles,in differing diameters and deem the chamberings as bein' equal?
 
 Now I'm a 7mmRemmag FAN. But it can't run with the 257Wby. As far as cost,Factory ammo is priced different. When reloading though,they are same/same,assuming like componetry in each.................

Welcome to the board Dude,
 
 A lot of the .257Wby shooters around here run 7mmRemMag brass through their dies and trim as required. Report excellent results, and no more cost than most common rounds.
 
 MM

MM,
 
 The 30-06 is a different proposition because it's loads are usually developed to not exceed 60,000 PSI, where any modern bolt gun can more that safely withstand 65,000 psi. Most of the other "modern" chamberings are developed to the 65,000 PSI standard. So I expect increased velocities with the 30-06.
 
 OKShooter did a bunch of pressure testing with his two 30-06s and produced a loading manual. He found 62 grains of RL-22 yeilded 2646 fps at 59,100 psi in a 22" barrel. A 26" barrel would add another 100 fps, bringing that up to 2746 fps. Given you have another 6,000 psi to work with, it is easy to see how you can get close to 2900 fps with 190 grainers in a 26" barreled 30-06. Add to that you can probably get 68-70,000 PSI before you see any pressure signs, and the velocity you mention would be easily obtainable--just don't tell the guys shooting factory ammo in their 24" barreled 300 Win Mags!
 
 I went back and looked at all my Barnes X data. In my tight chambered rifles, I was/am usually able to get within 30-50 fps of what they claim. The again, I don't go for max velocity but max accuracy, so there may be more velocity available at the expense of accuracy.
 
 I can get 2950 with 225 grain X bullets from my 338 RUM, and 3050 with the coated version. Since I haven't seen any published data, I don't know how that compares. My 26" barreled 30-06 will shoot 180 grain Gamekings at 2900 fps, and the 165 XLCs at 2920 (best accuracy), which is within 30 fps of the little blue card they sent with the bullets. My 416 Rem shoots 300 grain Xs at 2750 with 81.5 grains of H4895 from a 25" pac-Nor barrel. The Barnes #2 says 81 grains of H4895 will get 2747 from a 24" barrel. Once again that is within 30 fps or so.
 
 Given all that, I'd say an accurate 180 grain XLC in a 24" barreled 30-06 at 2965 fps would be lucky. But it might be worth a try. Sometimes a 180 grainer shoots as fast as a 165 grainer..............
 
 Blaine

Heck I don't know stick,I've read plenty of people claim that the 7-08 is the equal of the 30/06,with the same bullet weight and those are two different bullet diameters. Those wonderful x bullets have a tendancy to equal things up between differant calibers,since they don't really shed weight.
 
 
 On deer sized game,I've never really been impressed with X bullets though. I like plenty of damage with a good size entrance hole and bigger exit with plenty of hate and discontent caused inside. With the X bullet you always get an exit hole,but in my experience,its like a partition always small. Internal damage has always been disapointing. I've gotten more impressive wounds on deer with the lowly 30/06 and 150 to 165 remchester wonders. I've always failed to see how the .257 weatherby killed any better then the 7mag or 06/270 for that matter. I always aim for bone and on high shoulder shots the .243 has dropped deer and antelope, just as quick as the 257 did. I think thats really what has kept the 06/270/308/280 so popular. When it comes down to it,on any given day, any of these cartridges will drop game just as fast as the small bore magnums will and do it with less fuss and cheaper.
 
 
 Having seen plenty of game killed with various rounds and having discussed this with others who have also witnessed the same,I've come to the conclusion that there really isn't a whole hell of alot of differance on game between the .257 mag clear up to the 300 mags,out to 400 yards. Sure the paper figures vary,but I've never killed an animal with paper. On elk sized game and larger,I've seen a noticable differance in performance on game when you start shooting the .338/340/375 class of cartridges and the 40 and bigger is a step up from them.
 
 I've heard it said that from .25 mag to 30 cal. you could kill a thousand animals each with all of these small bores and not see an ounce of differance on game. The problem is,people tend to kill a small cross section of animals with a few cartridges and form opinions.When in fact a large number of cartridges out there will mirror the on game performance of what they are shooting.
 
 
 I've kept fairly good records of the distances that I've killed animals at and it's really boring and close. Deer and elk have been at 200 yards or less. Antelope has been 350 yards or less,bear has 100 yards or less,moose have been 150 or less and caribou have been 300 or less. I've also had the oppurtunity to hunt and talk with hunters who have hunted exstensively all over the world and killed hundreds of big game animals. There experience and need to shoot beyond 400 yards, in order to connect on game has been very limited. On N american game,their experiences have mirrored my own. I guess I find it easy to see why the 06 and 06 based cartridges have remained the standard. How often do you really need more and when you do,a medium or big bore does a better job.

Dude,
 
 I'd submit,that the first Rule of the Jungle is everyone does it different.
 
 My thoughts on like weight bullets in the .284" and .308" diameters,is akin to guys with size 8 and size 11 feet,wearing the same shoes. Sounds great,unless YOU are one of them guys!
 
 I'd concur that the X readily fords barriers,that other projectiles can't hurdle. But favoring one diameter,while cutting the throat of the next,an even match it do not make.
 
 As far as making an X wreck havoc upon Game,you've multiple routes available. My preference is to shoot towards the lighter weight of the available spectrum,housed within a given diameter and to line up much skeletal structure on the receiving end(high impact velocity,coupled with the bullet integrity to drive through and THROUGH). In my experience an entrance hole is always the diameter of the projectile(excepting hyper frangible bullets,pushed to breakneck speeds and imposed on thinly constructed critters),when speaking projectiles geared towards medium Game on up.
 
 If entering a "Rug Yankin' Contest",I'd entertain but only one cartridge and that would be the 257Wby armed with projectiles that didn't rob it's speed potential(100's). I've shot enough members of the 308 clan,'06 clan and H&H clan to think it is without peer in that avenue. She's the showstopper in regars to puttin' lips in the dirt.
 
 
 Now as far as the lowly fast stepping 25,mirroring lethality with more capacious offerings in larger diameters,I WOULD concur. Of course that is the reason why I favor the 257Wby in that application. It is certainly above performance perameters housed within the 308Win clan(which I heap big love and respect),as well as the 284 spawn(again MUCH allegience there,by me). Though on the flipside I've done most of the fast stepping H&H and BIG Wby offerings. In my opinion,the 257Wby lacks little to none and certainly none can touch it for overall splendor and excellence. The 7STW is the one that I believed to tread closest,but I could discern no difference in lethality and aborted them(had a pair of 'em).
 
 As far as other cartridges doing likewise,"with less fuss and cheaper",I'd be much curious to have that elaborated upon. That certainly ain't how I've seen the cards fall.
 
 I'm the last to weigh another's needs. If the '06 is your end all,they'll happily sell ya one. To infer that it's the 257Wby's stablemate regarding performance capabilities,is an issue I'll happily discuss. I cut my teeth on one and tossed it happily aside for the other.
 
 You guess which was which(grin).................

Blaine,
 
 Your 338RUM loads are within 50fps of book top loads.
 
 Just for curiosity, I'm going to shoot an email to Barnes and inquire about their max pressure on their 30-06 data.
 
 I will get some of the 180grXLC and 168 XLC to do some of my own "lab work"(grin). I'll post my results.
 
 I've seen some glowing reports of the accuracy achieved with the newer 168gr XLC BT.
 
 MM

MM,
 
 That is my next step. I was totally happy with the 165 XLC load in my 30-06. I had an average of just over a half inch for 4 or 5 groups when out comes a wild flyer, 2" lower than the other shots. I didn't pull the shot, conditions were fine, etc. It was just another Barnes bullet "Xing" on me. I have also heard how the 168 XCLs don't do that, and I am anxious to try. I do love there terminal performance.
 
 Blaine

Parts,
 
 I am sure that some will push the 06 and get better results. At what costs though? On average a 300 winmag beats a 30-06 by 300 FPS, or there abouts. Sure there are rare times when somebody handloads and get better results but I am talking apples to apples. I will take the 300 FPS advantage any day.
 
 I get 3180 FPS out of my 300 win mag using 180gr ballistic tips. Thats not a HOT load by any means. It is the most accurate load I have yet to find, for my rifle.
 
 As far as "cheaper" goes, my rifles are all custom built. The price would be the same since my smith doesn't charge more to chamber an 06 versus a 300 win mag.
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Montana,
 
 Don't confuse this tread and that thread. They are totally different.
 
 When using my 300 win mag in my elevated deer stand I can clearly see to 750 yards. I watch over fields, wait for the deer to come out of the woods to feed and go from there. I have my 300 win mag worked out to 650 yards. I CHOOSE to kill deer out to 650 yards, for the challenge of it.
 
 I have killed many (over 100) deer at less then 100 yards. I now choose to go long range, on occasion. Again, don't confuse the two.
 
 It must be nice to have so much ground to hunt all to yourself.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Don,
 
 I didn't appreciate how good I had it until I left MT.
 
 The kicker is that I didn't have to drive anywhere, just walk out the door with a rifle and go for a "nature walk".
 
 MM

That would seem to be a warm load when one considers what a lot of load books say and some loads posted on the internet that don't attain that speed.
 I know I had two rifles in 300 win Mag and one would take a hotter load than the other, and from what I tried with my powders and what some writers tried, I was pretty close to them, but never found I could get that high safely.
 What powder do you use in yours.
 And are they 24" Barrels like mine were.
 Thanks
 Bill

Parts,
 
 I use Rel 22
 
 The barrel length on my 300 win mag is 26"
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Thanks for the info, I will try that Rel22 but I won't be able to stretch my barrel, and I aint about to spend any money on it as it shoots good now.
 Thanks for the info.
 Bill

Based on what you said, I "assume" you no longer live in Montana?
 
 Must of been a nice feeling to just walk out back, go hunting.
 
 Have a good one,
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Don,
 
 I joined the Marines in May 1979, upon graduating High School in Sidney, MT. Still on active duty. Been all over the place in the last 23 years. Currently, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade(2MEB), Camp Lejeune, NC.
 
 I bought 40 acres of central MT a few years ago. I'm definitely going back to retire there in Sept 2005.
 
 MM