Well, this is the first time I've tried to post an image here so I hope it works. I really want you guys to have a look at this and tell me why you think it happened.

I shot a medium sized whitetail does last week. I was using a 165 grn. Nosler Partition from a 30-06 at about 50 yards. She was angled away from me, and the front part of her was in brush. I didn't have too much time, but I aimed at her ribs. I shot too far back and hit her in the rump. The bullet went through to the vitals and she didn't go far.

I was surprised there was no exit wound, and I found the bullet when gutting her. The front of it looked like might be expected. The front end was sheared away.


But the reason it didn't penetrate all the way is shown below. The picture doesn't make it too clear, but the bottom of the jacket is hollow. The lead core that should be beneath the partition was gone.



This is only the second animal I've shot with a partition. The first one was a bull elk I shot in the shoulder and it worked perfect (it was a 180 grainer).

Is this kind of thing common? I really want to believe in Partitions, but this makes me wonder.

???

I visited with a man that I guided a few times when he was back hunting with the new owner of the outfit and he showed me a 250 gr partition fired from a 338 Win Mag that he recoved from a moose that had the exact same thing happen. Evidently the bullet had a rough ride and tumbled. I don't think it is very common and I personally still have faith in the design. Weird things happen some times.

Interesting. I had a similar thing happen back in 97 or 98 when I shot a bear using a .375 H&H with 300gr Nosler Partitions. The first shot was while it was standing and went through and through, the second was while it was quartering away. The bullet went rear left to the front right, and dropped the bear in its tracks. Pieces of the bullet core and separated jacket were found just under the skin on the far end. The jacket looked way worse than yours though.

Today the Nosler partition is still my �go to� bullet.

Got me.Only can recall seeing that twice.Both times on a forum.

Yep, same thing happened to me about a dozen years ago... The bullet was a 130 Partition shot from a .270 Win into an elk about 80 yards away. All that I recovered was the piece of copper tubing like you have in your pic. The piece of copper was found on the far side and under the hide, so the bullet almost exited on the broadside elk.

I sent the bullet to Nosler and they thought it likely tumbled in the elk and expanded from both ends. They also suggested that I use 150 Partitions for elk. The only time I've ever run across a Partition doing that and even then it still performed well enough to do the job quickly.

Lonny, do you think it might have been tumbling before it hit the elk? Reason I ask is that the deer did have her head behind some brush, but I don't think there was any in the path of the bullet.

Can't be sure though.

Tumbling is indeed probably the answer. More bullets do this than we ever suspect.

The next question would be: At what point did the bullet tumble and lose the core?

And after that comes Warren Page's famous query: At what point in the animal's death did the bullet fail?

Have never personally had one do it, but a friend did once with a 180gr out of an '06, on a moose at 50yds. It was shot through light brush and tumbled. As is in most cases, this "failed bullet" was recovered from a dead critter! So that's one Partition failure vs. probably around a hundred that I, and/or a partner has used to perfection.....I can live with those odds.

Jeff

+1+

I think a certain mono-copper does that exact think a bit often itself.

Yes, I do think there was a possibility that the bullet hit some brush before making contact with the bull. I've thought about that possibility since recovering that 130 Partition and while I'll never know for sure, it sure isn't out of the question. And even if the bullet did or didn't the Partition still did its job.

Does anyboddy know of any bullet testing done to simulate shooting through a light screen of brush immediately in front of a target?

There has been a lot of that sort of testing done over the decades, through everything from brush to small dowels. The results generally indicate that the results are highly variable, and about anything can happen.

My own tests and experience in hitting brush while hunting indicate the same thing.

30-30 target shot from 75 yards. A screen of brush - our local alders, around 1/2" diameter- was just a few feet, ten or less, in front of the target. You can see what was happening to the bullets. Yes they hit the target; yes, some were not pointed point on.

Hey Klikitarik,
That's a great test. It even looks like the one furthest to the right even mushroomed before it hit the cardboard sideways.

That's pretty cool. You ever try it with say 20 or 30 yards between the brush and the target?

I have a Nosler 250gr pt from my .338mag around here somewhere that key holed and lost some of the rear core.

It hit a 5 pt bull elk at very close range (quartering towards me) in the bottom edge of the curve in the neck bone "point on", deflected and slammed through the ribs sideways, stopping on the shoulder bone.

Piled the bull up right there, but I was amazed when I found the bullet.

"Stuff" can and will happen with any bullet. The partition is still my personal premium bullet if I don't use a Hornaday.

BT

Yep, that one seems to be pretty clear. I think only one or two did not expand before hitting the box, some still going front (or back) end first. I would imagine they would have all been lethal to a deer. However, penetration and damage may not have been everything desired.

I did try another test with the 45-70 using the snow covered lake beyond to judge the hitting ability of the bullets - their ability to stay on track IOW. That was wholly unimpressive. Those bullets were landing far and wide even in a heavy bullet (400 grain) classic brush bullet (RN) design.

It seem to me there are two concerns when brush deflection is involved. One is striking the target. The second might be bullet performance when you do. As much as I don't especially like to see a bullet tumble once inside an animal, at least it has done some of its work and expended some purposeful energy by the time it turns. As far as that goes, some bullets even expand with an expanded face which is deflective by its very shape. (While others expand with more of a ball shaped frontal form.) Deflection is another problem.

We are, on the one hand, fortunate to have so many very good bullets to choose from in this time. On the other hand, there are virtually none of them which are totally devoid of recurring issues of some kind - many of them essentially minor, just not perfection. I never have made the Partition my major "go-to" bullet. However, I have seen that my initial experiences and consequent impressions were a bit hasty in judgement. I don't think that folks who adhere to the Partition as the single most useful bullet for a wide range of applications are wrong.

I had it happen on a whitetail buck in Manitoba; the bullet was a 160 partition from a 7 RM; I know it was deflection because we found the clipped-off willow branches, and the bullet struck sideways,spinning through the liver and both front and rear cores spun out of the jacket,which I recovered against the off-side hide.I have had a Bitterroot deflect and hit a deer as well; a 130 gr from a 270 at about 10 yards in heavy cover on a 250 lb buck. It held its core, one side of the expanded bullet sheared off; it still retained over 2/3 of its weight.These examples are a good argument for using a tough premium bullet, even for deer-sized in heavy cover.

I've recovered a fair number of Nosler Partitions from big game critters that I've killed. The front core is almost always blown away and the bullet is expanded fully. The front looks like this:





And the side view looks like this:




When the bullet hits heavy bone, like moose or elk, and tumbles through rough stuff, occasionally the base gets squeezed. Like this:





Here is a side view of squeezed bases. Notice that none of these totally lost their core.



Frankly, I've never seen a totally lost rear core on a Partition. I'm thinking that the bullet tumbled early and the rear core crimp just couldn't hold the core. Schit happens, even to the best of bullets.

Steve

Dang, I knew metal prices were getting high. However, I didn't realize they had gotten to where spent bullets were worthy as fare for the the collection plate.

Of probably 50+ deer and elk I've witnessed shot and killed with Partitions--and probably 60 bullets in the critters--I've yet to see that happen, even with the "older" Partitions.


But about 10 years ago one of the clients with another guide had it happen with a 140gr out of a 7mmWthby at short yardage (I can't remember how short).


I have seen "failures" of other bullets, premium and otherwise. The most common of the denominators I can see is higher velocity at short range. Of course in this case an 06 and 165 grain would not fall under that label.

Otherwise, I have only seen this a couple times on forums too.

I find it interesting the lead has been wiped clean on the front side too. Unless lots of bone is encountered, usually one sees at least some lead left on Partitions.




I'm gonna steal your John Locke quote and harrass the Fred Thompson guys up on the political page



Casey

That's an excellent demonstration Klikitarik.


Casey

One of our priests owns a big-frame Marlin .45-90. It is a family heirloom, but he has shot it. Believe me, he would be all over the expanded Nosler Partitions.

Usually the Partitions sail right on through and you seldom recover them. I have about twenty and I've probably killed something over 200-225 critters with Nosler Partitions. That is about ten percent.

By the way, very often the Partitions exit the big game animal backwards. At the Nosler plant, they have several photos of Partitions with just the base sticking through the hide and the lips of the front acting like grappling hooks.

The coolest photo is of a large caliber Partition base sticking out of a Burchell's zebra hide. The photo is an extreme closeup and you can even see the long-grain extruded powder marks on the lead core.

Most folks don't know that the Partitions often exit backwards, like a freakin' parachute, so don't tell anyone.

Steve

Being that I"ve seen same with Partitions, and thats what drove me away from them, failure to penetrate 2 fairly simple shots where I thought the partition should shine, that was the point in life I swayed to mono bullets. Some have visible proof they also fail. I"ve shot plenty of them, and have loaded the quantity "plenty" many times over for friends. We have yet to see a failure with that projectile.

Now there is the question about failure vs death, but in my instances both shots required follow up shots. ANd neither were tricky so I went on to a better bullet.

Jeff

I initially saw a couple of deals with the Partition that put me off. One was a 150 from a 308 which failed to make it through a whitetail on, basically, a broadside shot. When the X came around that seemed like a good answer to that and many other problems. Of course, it has issues of its own. A couple of failures to expand -at what I consider long range- have made me re-think the what I want in a close-to-far multi-purpose bullet. I won't re-post those pics here right now. However, I do think there is good evidence that the X does indeed tumble. In fact I think that may be part of the reason we're seeing the TSX resemble the BT in it destructive properties. (And that, IMO, is not a good reason to choose them, but that's me.)

Check out this shot of an X exit, a 300 XFB from a 45-70: (that 500 Interbond is only shown for scale purposes.)



That was neither a high speed impact nor exit. I rather think that bullet was sideways during exit. So many pictured TSX bullet holes show trauma far greater than most I have even seen in my experience with original Xs. Does that mean the TSXs are coming apart explosively (I think not) or are they tumbling (likely IMO) or is it something else?

ALL expanding bullets tumble now and then. They are designed to be stable in the air before expanding, but after opening up inside an animals made of everything from water to bone, anything can happen.

The longer the remaining shank, the less this is likely, but it still happens. We just don't usually see any evidence of it, because the hole inside the animal is a mess, and when the bullet is recovered its usually under the hide. We don't really know which way it is "pointing" before we skin the animal out, or just stick a knife through the skin to retrieve our fascinating "secondary trophy."

Hell, even solids tumble more than now and then. If you want a bullet that doesn't tumble (or at least never acts like it does) use a round ball.

Dogzapper,

Neat collection of spent Noslers.

My 250gr from the .338 looks just like the "squeezed" bullet on the lower right of your photo. It broke a rib on the off side and then slammed into the shoulder blade, where it stopped. BT

No way I'd turn loose of my recovered bullets to put them in the offering plate. I'd put my money in first !!!

The petals seem to be much more resistant to breaking off with the tsx than with the original x.The result is a larger expanded diameter,which naturally results in more trauma.

Damn stright!!!!

Steve

dogzapper: Yes, I think you're right;the bullet was deflected before it struck him,because the entrance hole was "long",hit sideways. I have a bunch of recovered partitions that look like yours,some with the squeezed bases.The partition is very good, predictable,and reliable but may be trumped by other stuff out there today IMO.

But they do appear to be getting awfully close close to, the "Weekly Offering."



An interesting "photo shoot" even if there is no "freudian" extra meanings to it. Love to look at what they do, how they work, and what's left, too though, so I understand not wanting to part with them.

Back when folks complained of Xs losing petals, they were nit-picking the bullet in general, largely because the were more difficult to shoot well consistently. As is often the case if there's one nit to pick, people look for other nits. And if many people are finding nits, well, then it becomes a popular past time. I was one of the minority who seemd to like and have success with the original X design - the flat based versions anyway. Sure a petal would break off now and then - like when you'd punch a solid bone end on a critter weighing half a ton, or pulverize 8" of spinal bone on a lesser critter. I guess that never really surprised my nor did it bother me. Most of the time Those bullets would leave through a small hole that left little corners in the hole in the hide, or they could be found in the animal in the picture perfect bundle often seen in the ads. The bullet I pictured above was not a TSX - it was an ordinary flat-based spitzer shaped bullet. Unlike most X bullet wounds, it left evidence of much more trauma. The first bullet fired into the same animal, a "bonded" lead core bullet of the same weight, was much less messy. Both lethally punched holes through the lungs.

I just love expanded bullets and have kept every one I've ever found.

My last safari to the the Northern Transvaal (RSA) yielded many beautifully expanded .308" 180-grain Interlocked SPBTs. I keep this entire safari's bullets in a series of carefully-marked ziplok bags.

Of course, the fact that I found them meant that they FAILED. Which is why every animal was a one-shot instant kill.

Sometimes armcahir shooters and their opinions give me intense belly laughs.

Steve

Naw, no id-slip (I have a BS in social psychology). My computer desk is just a total mess of papers, cameras and Leica binoculars. I grabbed the first clean paper that was near an open area where I could photograph.

For those who are interested, the envelope now has a check in it (no bullets) and will be dropped into the collection basket tomorrow during Vigil Mass.

This doesn't mean I'm out of photography background envelopes. For some reason CTKCC keeps sending me LOTS envelopes; prolly because I keep stuffing them with healthy checks.

Steve

Good Nosler example's guys.Love to see them.Better than a newspaper in the a.m.

Have used Nosler Partitions almost exclusivly for over 50 years and still continue to do so. Have NEVER had one fail. Almost all lose the front core when recovered but also do the job and I find them to be uniformly accurate in anything I load them in. I shot an Eland at about 75yds left rear quartering shot. My intention was to put it behind the ribs into the heart/lung area. Hit a mopane about the size of your little finger about 6 ft from Eland. Hit left rear quarter and it penetrated all the way to hip bone and broke it. Bullet was completely buried in the bone up to the base. It was a 260gr 375H&H. Finally got the Eland after VERY long track over 2 days. Also have a 220gr from a 30-06 that penetrated completely thru a Wildebeest shoulder shot and was under skin on off side. The front core had seperated from the rear but was in same location as rear and recovered. I have lost no game to the Nosler Partition only to poor shooting.

If we can be so open and personal, I'll brag as well. I got BS about all kinds of stuff, not to mention on it. I think I may just about be full up!

Steve, great pics and a great post. Anyone who has shot a fair # of Partitions knows those pics are spot on and Partitions flat out work. I have many Partitions that I have dug out of game that look exactly like the ones in the photos you posted. Those that think they are failures just don't understand what real bullet failure is. I'll just keep on shooting the Partitions and some Accumonds. I'll try to dig out the few that I can find and the ones that go on thru I guess I'll never know if they failed or not??? 163bc

Wow. I've never recovered a Nosler Partition from any animal I've put one into, nor have I had any complaint as to the level of damage they inflict. They kill them and then spread a little extra KE on the landscape. One followup shot to poorly hit elk went from the right ham, through the femur, traversed the entire body, and left the center of the briskit. That killed him pretty well. That was a 200 grain version over a bit too much powder (98.5 grains of AA 8700) at a range of 100 yards or so. Penetration distance was right at 5 feet or whatever the length of an elk that weighs 300 lb. field dressed is. Exit wound was a perfect ragged hole about double the caliber of the entrance.

If ya think thats impressive, and it is, my guide friend in AK, shoots 338 Win mag, 225X at the time. His boss found a big blackie, BC skull, in some alders, borrowed Spencers rifle, and bad timing on a shot, thats on video some years ago, hit a 4-5 inch alder dead center, that was appx 10 feet from the bear also, totally penetrated the bears front shoulder, exited and went through another smaller alder and was lost in the tundra....
Ever since my 180 partition, 30 cal, 300 wtby appx 3127 IIRC, hit a 225 pound whitetail in the neck at under 150 yards, and stopped on THIS side of the neck, I"ve avowed those bullets as possible problems. That took another shot. So did a stem to stern one same load in a Nilgai, shattered hip joint and stopped....

Jeff

Jeff

If you are recovering bullets, you need to get a better one IMO.

Got nothing against Partitions, except .338 210's, but there are better Premiums out there. For that matter, I like Corlokts better, based on field work.

I once shot a 45" bull moose at about 100 yards in the shoulder blade with a .338 Mag 210P. No brush between us. Down he went. At 10 feet, up he came again, 3-legged! The second 210 up the nose, one handed, did the trick. Then I sat down and quivered for 5 minutes or so. That, by the way, was the second and last time I ever approached any downed animal from the front, as well as not giving it an insurance shot from some yards out. The first time on a similar bull (.30-06, plain jane 180 gr bullets,) a few years before had remarkably similar results. I learn slow, but I do learn.

The first 210 round had shattered his near shoulder blade, peppering the near lung with bb sized bits of bone and lead. The opposite lung was untouched. Never did find the base _ I think it richocheted back out the entry wound.

First and last time I used the 210 on game.

Here are some pics of Partitions I have recovered thru the years. They are boringly similar to Partition pics others have posted here and also to the many others friends that use them have recovered. The Partitions flat out work just like they are supposed to!! 163bc

The retained weights of the Partitions in the previous pics I posted are as follows:

7mm 140 = 88.9 grains
7mm 140 = 89.2 grains
7mm 150 = 95.7 grains
30 cal 180 = 120.0 grains
30 cal 180 = 110.2 grains

163bc

I have a box full of recovered bullets, including many Nosler Partitions in various calibers from .227 to .338. On average, I've had a 15% recovery rate with Paritions, and most of those were found under the hide on the off-side of the animal. This recovery rate doesn't mean that 85% of them exited, since a number were lost back of the diaphram (from frontal chest shots), somewhere in the plumbing system, and either I couldn't find them or some African skinner couldn't find them. Retained-weight has averaged 65%, regardless of caliber.

Overall, I've been very, very happy with Nosler Partitions over the last 27 + years. They've been extremely accurate in most rifles, good killers on everyhting from 100 lb. animals to 2,000 lb. animals; they've been totally reliable in terms of terminal performance, and I can't point to an episode where a Partition has failed me in any way. I've not experienced a detached rear core, but then I suppose there's a first time for everything. On average, Partitions have penetrated deeper for me than have some bullets that typically retain more weight.

Even so, if I had an episode like that one on a moose with a 210 Partition out of a 338 Win. Mag., I'd likely be looking to another bullet as well - either a heavier Partition, or better yet, a Barnes TSX..........

AD

The instant it failed to perform as expected or desired. And the animal graciously died anyway. IMO.

Kind of like "Not guilty by reason of insanity". In my book it should be "Guilty but insane."

IMHO, if you are finding bullets, you ain't using enough caliber/bullet.

But then, I'm a "blow a hole to daylight" kind of guy.