I was looking at my rifles the other night, daydreaming about hunts past and I got to thinking about the failure issue with A Bolts. I know there are some guys here at the fire who swear up and down that they are junk. I just don't remember what the reasons are for their dislike of A Bolts. As far as accuracy they are as good as any and better than a lot. They do have shiny stocks and gold triggers, but who can't like a little bling on their rifle. They have junk bottom metal - but so do Rugers. Not looking to start an arguement here (I plan to just read comments from here out), just curious as to what the failure issues with the A Bolts are. Never hurts to be aware of problems that are historically present with what you're using I guess.

I have hunted with them on and off for twenty years,I have never had one fail me in any way.

Just talked with an employee of Sportsmans who guides part time in Alaska. His A bolt, 375 H&H has failed to fire several times while in the bush. He guides mainly for moose where there are lot's of bear. He's dumping the rifle and buying a CZ.

He also stated that the metal parts on his rifle rusted easily.

What ruraldoc said, but I have been using my oldest A Bolt almost 25 years and it still works great and has given zero problems.

For the most part, I think Abolts are fine when they are cared for, but if neglected, even a little bit, they'll mess you up when you least expect it. Seems like most of the complaints come from guys in Alaska. My only actual experience with the Abolt is in working on a Stainless .338 Win Mag that my buddy from Alaska used for 5-7 years while guiding. It failed to fire while he was hunting deer for himself and when he went to see if he still had the safety on or what the problem was, it fired by itself after he had removed his finger from the trigger. He typically loans out his rifle to clients, so knew he couldn't have that. I gave him my M70 stainless to use while I fixed his Abolt. He guides and outfits for Brown Bear so spends a lot of time near salt water. The corrosion within the trigger, not to mention all the sand, dirt, etc. had caused the trigger to fail. I replaced it with a Moyers adjustable trigger. The area of the receiver where the trigger group attaches was cracked, but was easily welded and repaired. The chamber was scratched from sand, dirt, etc., but that was polished out. The fancy scissoring magazine lifter was corroded and busted and the spring that holds the magazine to the floor plate was also corroded/busted. When I finished, it shot well and he now has that to back up his M70. Keep in mind that this is a guy that treats his rifle harshly, as a tool. He likes the M70 since it can handle being submerged in a river and swished clean of all the sand he has accumulated over a hunt! This is the type of guy who will run into trouble with an Abolt. Most average hunters would have few problems, I would think.
Test

test1328

I don't own an Abolt and can't claim personal knowledge of them, however I'm not tracking on your "I think Abolts are fine when they are cared for, but if neglected, even a little bit, they'll mess you up when you least expect it." The example of the Abolt you gunsmithed back into service was severely neglected by its owner!

Are other models of rifles still reliable after being as abused for 5-7 years as your alaskan friend did to his Abolt? The way I see it having an Abolt be reliable for five plus years would be a complement to Browning. Am I missing something? What models of guns in your experience do you recomend?

idahoguy101

Yeah, your missing it. A simpler trigger group wouldn't have failed.

So the problem is with the trigger?

idahoguy,
I'm sorry I wasn't more specific about how a different rifle design might better withstand such treatment.

Because my friend did not have time to purchase a new rifle, scope, etc. and get it sighted in in time before his first hunters arrived, I gave him my Win. M70 .338 stainless classic that I used on my Brown Bear hunt, along with 40 rounds of handloads using 250 grain Swift Aframes. The rifle was sighted in for these loads and ready to go. It also had a VariX-III 2.5-8 scope on it. That was 9 years ago, I think, and he's been using it ever since in the same manner that he always has. He swears up and down that that rifle is the most reliable, dependable, best designed rifle ever made because he knows that he abuses his rifles and he is amazed that it still goes bang every time. Besides him carrying it for bear hunts, he uses it for moose, and takes it on every goat hunt that he guides since many of his clients are bow hunters. After seeing how difficult it is to arrow a billy, many of them readily use his .338 to shoot their goats. He cleans the rifle once a year, usually in December after all of his hunting is done. He claims he has never had to adjust the scope or do anything to it other than clean it up once a year. He still loads to the same handload recipe that I came up with originally and says it shoots to point of aim, usually within 1.5" at 100 yards. So, long story short, the M70 stainless seems to be capable of withstanding the same treatment as the Abolt for almost twice as long without any problems and it is still going strong.

I think BW has it right, since the biggest reason for the original failure of my friend's Abolt was the trigger group problem and failure. All of the other things that I mentioned would not really keep you from firing the rifle, they were just little things that can be annoying. The problem, as I see it, is the trigger group has a closed housing where dirt, sand, water, etc. can collect. Over time, pieces within the trigger group corrode and rust and then fail or bind up enough to prevent firing. The old M70 has an open trigger design that makes it extremely difficult to collect dirt in any part of the system and if it does, it is easily seen and can be cleaned readily. This is one reason, among others, that you have heard such an outcry on this board about the NEW MOA trigger on the SC Winchester M70's. The new trigger group is a closed system, very much like Brownings, which a lot of people see as potential for problems down the road.

I still say that for the average Joe hunter that cares for his rifle, keeps it clean, etc. and that may only hunt in inhospitable climates for 1-2 weeks in his life, that the Abolt will be just fine and will serve him well. They are very accurate rifles from my limited experience of only 2 Abolts. I just don't think it is the best rifle to have along with you if you're going to be carrying it everyday into the Alaskan bush (or similar) for years on end.

Hope this explains things and helps you out.
Test

If memory serves me correctly, I have heard about the bolt head coming loose, or breaking off, from the bolt body; but again, I may be completely wrong about that.

Can anybody else elaborate?

The idea of NOT being meticulous about rifle maintenance, especially when you hunt in big bear country, is completely foreign to me. I dont care what make and model your rifle is, it is a given that you perform preventive maintenance on it. All rifles are mechanical devices and all mechanical devices will fail if neglected long enough.

The "Brand A is better than Brand B because Brand A can be neglected longer" argument makes me laugh. Every one of my rifles leaves home for every hunt in tip top working order every time.

The biggest problem is the trigger built of mixed pedigree metals. It rusts rapidly and especially a wire connector linkage. This causes the trigger to bind, usually in a fail-to-fire mode.

The number of parts in both the bolt and trigger group is excessive, metalurgy uncertain. That is a recipe for problems.

As I have stated repeatedly, I have limited A-Bolt time, yet they have failed more times in my presence than all other brands and models combined.

I own an A-Bolt in 375. I know a guide using an A-Bolt in 375 and he does not baby it. He has close to 20 years on it and it has worked fine in bad salty conditions. The trigger parts do not rust and corrode in his rifle... The uncertainty of the metalurgy is the issue, I believe.

I own quite a few Brownings of other models and have nothing against Browning, other than the A-Bolt...
art

lodgepole
I have seen pristine, well-oiled A-Bolts fail in less than a week with reasonable care. None of the failures I have personally witnessed could possibly be written off to neglect...
art

Lodgepole,

Glad you at least got a laugh! <grin>

As a client, it is easy to sit back and say, "well my rifle is in perfect working order and I have never neglected it and never would. It always gets cleaned after every day." However, as a guide/outfitter, as you probably know, they have a lot of other worries, headaches, etc. to deal with besides looking after their rifle. The problem is compounded by the fact that many of them spend weeks and/or months out in the bush in the rain/snow with only a tent and one hunter/client after another. So, most of the guys that I know in this profession jump at anything that will save them some time and make their lives a little simpler and this includes rifles that they don't have to baby, clean, and inspect every single day to make sure that it will operate as expected.

As I've alluded to, if you want to hunt with an Abolt, be my guest, and I'll never have anything bad to say about anyone who does. I was just sharing my experience and admittedly limited knowledge. However, I will say that Sitka deer appears to have greater knowledge than myself and has reached a similar conclusion.

Test

I read thru this several times, shaking my head..my only comment would be, if you allow ANY GUN to be subjected to this level of care and maintinance and lack of careful cleaning and inspection,...well other than maybe an AK47 ...then your likely to have problems
a cleaning kit, careful inspection every night,and cleaning with a can of WD40, some gun oil, a few patches and brushes, a cleaning rod, screw drivers and having a stainless gun with a synthetic stock can go a long way toward preventing problems, in the field, IVE used a synthetic stocked stainless A-bolt in 375H&H on several ELK HUNTS and found it does its job quite well.
yes its a bit heavier than nesessary but thats not always bad in a 375 H&H

For the most part I don't know that they are junk. My cousin has a 25wssm that is junk. It jams and don't feed properly. It has been sent back to Browning and still don't feed well. I can hate a tool that don't function like it should. I also can't stand those cheesy clip/magazine things they use. I'm weird like that as I prefer ADL style. I don't like a palm swell but that's me. I guess other than the clip,if the gun works like it should I should not have a problem with them, but I do -grin-. Aint it good we have choices.

I bought a used 300 mag A-Bolt in '95 and haven't had any problems with it. I also consider my gun a tool for the job at hand and would say it's used medium to hard.

On the above guide's gun, I would think a lot of guns would start to malfunction in a similar condition.

I had a 7 Mag in the Gold Medallion offering. Shot wonderfully, but I am certain that the chamber opened up and caused brass to become lodged. Either way I was pounding the bolt open from shooting factory ammo. I got the store to take it back.
Also witnessed first hand a guy coming into a gun store with his trigger gaurd in two pieces, they did nothing for him except offer to send it off to Browning. Only way I got my money back was: they offered to send it off and it was still in the store a week later. I went off on a saturday with a crowded floor. Never will go back to that crap hole. Also won't buy a browning.
They are good looking guns and they shoot accurately but so do my rugers and remingtons.

Good point. Browning impresses me bout as much as Under Armor. They both work I guess,but you got better options for same money.

340
"...and cleaning with a can of WD40,..."

I guarantee you a ruined Alaska hunt if you keep that up. WD-40 has no use in gun cleaning and the gum it builds will catch you sooner or later...

"...several ELK HUNTS..."

What, is that supposed to be tough for a rifle to handle? As argument I lose where that means anything. Also, I pointed to a rifle with hundreds of times more time afield in far worse conditions functioning perfectly. Not all A-Bolts fail immediately around saltwater... Just enough to make them a poor choice, IME&O, with far more than 3 hunts behind one...
art

I know, I said I was just going to read from my initial post on. I appreciate the posts descibing the closed trigger group issues, wasn't aware of this. As to some of the other, seemingly more isolated issues, I wonder if it isn't maybe a little more brand bias than a quality issue. I've seen at least a dozen model 70's go through my dad's shop that had issues with the floor plate latch, several Rugers that were inaccurate to say the least - tough to find a brand that hasn't had an issue or two. And that's what I was getting at, I like Browning and want to be aware of chronic issues that are found with A Bolts. As far as abusing a rifle and having it continue to work, I have a 20 year old A Bolt that has seen it all but salt spray and has yet to fail even one time (thousands of rounds, dozens of animals, rain to snow, -30 to 90+, mud and sand, horseback and canoe). In my book that translates to reliability and is the reason I was curious as to how the A Bolt had gotten a bad rap with some. Seems I read here on the fire once that a guy had a barrel blow on one that he had tape on - isolated or chronic?

Browning had a bad run of steel... as did many manufacturers at baout the same time... and a large number of A-Bolt barrels blew... tape did not seem to be an issue...

I know all that sounds ideal 340 but get into Alaska's bush or coastal areas and all that maintenance you descibed goes out the window. Chitty weather, sand, silt and mud, salt water or salt spray, snow and or ice. All these things make doing what you describe daily near impossible or at last for me undesirable. I have had guns literally wet for an entir week, whether its cuz its being rained on while I am carrying it or packing it, or just from the extreme level of moisture in the tent that keeps the gun from completely drying. I am partial to certain guns that can withstand this kind of use year in and year out and from all the horror stories I have heard Browning seems to be right in the middle of em. Rugers and Winchesters not so much!....grin

I did have an A-Bolt in 280 Rem at one time and it killed deer in dry azz West Texas with no problem, but West Texas aint Alaska!

I'll scond that Art, and learned it the hard way. I'd oil my trigger, action and barrel with spruce tree sap before I'd spray it down wih Rem oil. That stuff sucks!

test1328

Thank for the clarification. I'm not a gunsmith or a guide. I haven't yet made it to Alaska for a hunt. So I'm not pontificating on anyone's opinions. I don't think you feel like I have...

As for my opinion. If I REALLY needed the most dependable rifle available I would have a Mauser action. Again, just my opinion...

Idahoguy101

+1. Exactly.

I certainly do not want to debate the merits or lack thereof of the Abolt versus another brand of rifle. Ranger1 asked to hear about failures and I thought I'd share. Idahoguy asked how other makes might compare if subjected to the same conditions, so I shared my knowledge of how another make, used by the same guy and under similar circumstances had faired. About the only useful comparison that I can think of, really. Obviously, everyone is going to draw their own conclusions from the above information and to each his own. However, elk, deer, bear, sheep, goat, and any other hunting down here in the lower 48 cannot compare to some of the conditions encountered in AK or some areas of Canada. Unless you've been there and experienced it, you'll never understand. Accuracy, stock design, whether or not you like the way they feel, all of these have no bearing on a discussion of failures of the Abolt, which is what I thought this topic was about. If you like your Abolt, well then use it and enjoy yourself! You don't have to justify your ownership and use of one to anyone here.
Test

Well Test, they say laughter is the best medicine. Enjoy !

Would I take an A-Bolt on an expensive and/or potentially dangerous hunt? No. Thats where the high end stuff comes in. A-Bolts are for the canyons, sage flats, and lodgepole forests of home. In that capacity they have kept bad weather and scratches off the expensive toys for years. Its their niche as I see it.

well, I hunt about 80% of the time with a synthetic stock/stainless weatherby MARKV in 340 wby caliber and Im forced to say Ive never been to alaska but I do backpack hunt for days at a time in colorado, and wy on occasion for ELK and I see lots of snow and colder temps on most hunts, now I don,t SPRAY down my rifles, but I do disassemble them from the stock and wipe them clean and clean them carefully almost every night, and Ive never had return to zero problems (but then Im happy with consistant 1"-1.3" groups in an elk rifle)
both rifles are heavy but the a-bolts almost a full pound heavier, and a 375H&H has no advantage Ive seen on ELK over the 340wby

Ranger ,a stainless stalker was my main hunting rifle for about 10 years and i was satisfied .But while giving it a thorough cleaning i noticed that the screw that goes through the trigger would not tighten and when i removed it the threads came out with the screw.Ifixed it with a moyers trigger but i had lost confidence in the gun and sold it.

Sorry I can't add to the list of horror stories. I'm not questioning the veracity of any of them (if Sitka says something its good in my book) -- but I have shot the dickens out of an A-Bolt for the last 26 years. It has a new stock and it needs a new barrel but it has never failed me. I have a friend that hunts as much as I would like to and all he has ever used are A-Bolts. He shot the barrel out of a lightweight .338WM a-bolt! Had it replaced and still shoots it for prairie dogs and coyotes as well as elk, moose etc. He has never coddled any rifle and the a-bolts are beat to hell but they still work.

I have an A-Bolt Medallion in 300WM. Never shot it that much, though it seems to shoot fine. I bought it used in the box, looked like it had never been fired. The safety started sticking and it would not go ON safe. Cleaned it and made sure the mechanism wasn't stuck, but it happened enough that I sent it to Browning. I never did find out what was wrong with it. I might carry it on a day hike elk or stand deer hunt, but I'm not taking it on an overnight trip. It just lost my confidence.

I am canadian, I had 2 triggers break. the rifle was an abolt 1.
First snapped where the the pin joins the trigger to the rifle. same trigger snapped in the middle.
Mettle was very poor and full of air holes( ie not solid).
The rifle was extremely accurate after I bedded it. Original bedding material disintegrated with oil.
The problem was brownings customer service in canada, it was awful. They left me pretty bitter and vocal.
For a long time there was a web site called " broken browning" until its owner was forced to close it. I thought my case was isolated, I found out that is was a resonably common problem with a bolt 1. I suppose that is why there was an abolt 2.
I had the entire trigger group replaced after the second break and have had no further problems since although the rifle gets very little use. I just lost my faith in the rifle and the company. Please no hate mail, I'm just giving facts as i saw them

They haven't changed,I guess. My brother bought new a BBR 300WM.The BBR was before the A-bolt,a cross between a Weatherby and a A-Bolt.He leaned the rifle against the cabin wall and it slowly fell over,the stock broke in half. The wood was punky,as in rotten. He had to buy a used stock from Browning service.

In my hunting group consisting of myself, Dad and Uncles we have a few Brownings and continue to buy them based on our very favorable experience with them.

We have the following that have many years of use on Deer, Elk, Bear, Coyote, etc.

For A-bolts we have:
7mm Rem Mag Composite Stalker
300 Win Mag Composite Stalker
7mm WSM Composite Stalker
30-06 Hunter FLD

For BAR's we have:
7mm Rem Mag Safari
270 WSM Shortrac Stalker
300 WSM Shortrac Stalker

For X-Bolts we have:
300 WSM Composite Stalker
325 WSM Synthetic Stalker

I also have 2 Citori's, 1 Gold Deer Hunter Special, 5 A-5's, and a BPS in 12 gauges.


I cannot recall any of us ever having a single misfire, jam, failure of any sort. I think an A-5 was having trouble ejecting light loads once, but we just needed to reconfigure the spring and sleeve configuration. I know for sure that non of them have had to go to the smith.

I don't think anyone can deny their out of the box accuracy.

As a side bar, They have not spent a lot of time in salty environments, but have all been hunted pretty hard.

Well I havent had my A-Bolt all that long. It was a 300 Rem Ultra Mag that I had rebarreled to a 8mm Remington Mag. I had it coated so maybe any issue with corresion if there was an issue will be solved. I asked the smith that rebarreled it about replacing the trigger and his reply was there was nothing wrong with the trigger although I had him adjust it and it is sweet. It was restocked by MPI with a light weight stock. I know some on here are not impressed with MPI but I sent it to them to be done and at this point I am satified. I am taking it to Kodiak in May for a bear hunt so I trust it. I have had Brno,Remington,Sako,Colt Sauer,Savage, and a custom Peter Noreen. To my mind nothing was as sweet as the Colt Sauer, smoothest bolt bar none. The A Bolt offers short bolt throw, Tang Safety, and a Clip magazine. These are all desireable to me. My hunting partner has had his A Bolt for 20 years and has taken Bear,Moose,Caribou,Deer,etc and never had an issue, although he does maintain it. It sits outside the tent in the rain, in the snow, etc. I believe there can be faults with any rifle. I also know there are alot of die hard Winchester folks here and the A bolt is manufactured in Japan, which bugs some, me as well. I am of the opinion that it is a good rifle. It does how ever seem to stir more comments than most

Get back to us on how much you love that "clip" after it falls out on you... Of all the "features" I would choose for a DGR, that would be last.

However, I have seen first hand how well duct tape works to renew the latch.

I have been hunting with a .270 Gold Medallion for years and I have never had a problem. It's not the A-bolt II, it's the older style with the fluted bolt.

It's a pleasure to shoot, it's very accurate and the walnut is pleasing to my eye.

That's my experience.
I have other rifles, Remingtons, Winchesters and Rugers and I could say the same about them all. The Browning is my favorite deer rifle though.

The A-bolt I owned failed to impress me enough to keep it. Too heavy and didn't like the Ergo's. I didn't ever have an issue with accuracy or function even in some bitter cold.

While I think some things on the new X-bolt are positively stupid, like 4 screws/base and that stupid plastic magazine, I did like the "feel" of the rifle. I don't mean the tacky overmold but the slim forearm and fairly slim grip felt good.

I'm with ruraldoc on this one.

I've had A-Bolts since they came out. I've fallen down scree slopes, into rivers, off of logs and dropped mine more than a few times. I am NOT a cleaning fanatic - in fact - I'm more of a "shoot it until I have a problem" kind of guy.

Not one of my A-Bolts has EVER failed me - in any way.

I wished I could say that about some of the other brands I own. Hint - one of my worst brands that I own in regards to needing visits to the gunsmith - is the darling of the "modifiers" - you know - the brand that everyone takes to their gunsmith to get them they way they want them - and then raves about!

Not only have all of my Brownings been trouble free - they have all been accurate - BEFORE - a trip to the gunsmith - not like that other brand.

The three screw,two piece bottom metal can cause nonfeeding,when the middle screw backs off. Since the clip is on the floorplate, the magazine drops enough for the bolt to pass over the cartridge.It doesn't take much.The blueing wears off quickly. The finish on the wood is much too hard,it shatters easily.

That might explain a lot. I have the Synthetic Stainless models.

I will grant you accuracy. My LH (that's the why I bought a Browning) son's 30-06 shoots early Interbonds into almost a single hole at 100m. That's the only rifle that has gotten them under an inch.

And the checkering is metric,you have to single point when you refinish.

I am new to this forum. I have been reading for several years. I have a browning A-bolt that I bought in 1988. It is .338 win mag that I have used for elk, deer, and several times to Africa. I have never had a problem with it. It is the best gun I have ever had. It always shoots 1" groups with 250 grain nosler partition.

The only problem I've had with my abolt '06 is that I short stroked it one time after missing a buck on the first shot. The bold shoved up the second shell while spent brass still in the bolt. Jamed up momentarily till I could wedge the buck grunt call in there to unjam. Buck spooked right underneath my tree and second shot put him down for good. Just don't short stroke them and you'll likely never have a problem.

I have had a Browning rifle of one sort or another since I was 9 years old. Presently still have two of them, and one is 2 years older than I am. The other is an A Bolt M1000 Eclipse in 300 WinMag. One of the most accurate rifles in my possession. It is a consistent 1 shot killer every year, and on some pretty long shots. Accurate rifle.

I hunt the swamps, rivers and clear cuts of NW Ontario in weather conditions that vary from warm and dry to wet and cool to snowing and wet to 40 below. If my rifle gets real wet, I wipe it down with a good gun oil. The bore and the bolt usually start the season clean, and end the season clean. It's likely gone through 150 rounds a year for the last 8 years, and I have NEVER had a problem with it. The trigger is as crisp today as it was when I bought it. I have done nothing to accurize it, and I'd be willing to bet that I can put two out of three shots through the same hole at 100 yards, most every time, and sometimes all three.

I would take that rifle anywhere to hunt under any conditions and expect it to deliver. It always has, and no reason to doubt it will for a long time to come.

Guess I'm just lucky and should take all those steaks out of the freezer and return them to the wild.