Which would you pick for deer and elk out to 450 yards? Why would you choose one over the other? Both would be shooting a 180 grain nosler accubond

300 mag. you can always load it down if you wanted but i wouldn't hack i use a 300 ultra for deer just because i like shooting it more than my 300mag. but if your going to be hunting elk and shooting out to 400 yds or more I'd opt for the 300

.30-06

-Additional recoil of the .300 Win Mag not worth it for the slightly increased velocity.
-If you reload: Less powder, cheaper brass for the '06.
-If you don't reload: Much greater selection of factory ammo.
-If you don't reload: Factory ammo is cheaper.
-Regardless if you reload: If you ever need a box of factory ammo, every store that sells ammo will have '06 bullets.
-No belt on the '06.
-Sight in at 200yds and the .300 Win Mag will drop about 40" at 500 yds, and the .30-06 will drop about 47". So the magnum isn't significantly "flatter."

I run the 300 WM in order to use the 200-gn
Accubond <grin>!

I'd say it comes down to your recoil tolerance. A 300 mag is a pretty sharp kicker. If you can shoot a sharp kicker well, then it's a "better" elk rifle- it will push a heavier bullet, which is a good thing on several levels.

If recoil affects your ability to shoot well then I'd go 30-06. It is very shootable.

Let me diverge from your question even further if you don't mind. In my opinion, if you are able and willing to tolerate 300 Win Mag recoil, then buy a .338 WM instead. Many- myself included- find .338 recoil to less bothersome than 300 WM.

Anyway others with more elk experience will chime in (I've only hunted them 8-9 seasons and killed a couple), but that's my opinion.

.300 WM.

That said, I have two .30-06's and wouldn't hesitate at ranges under 500 yards.

The .300 is just more authoritative. At 450 yards it will ahve about the same thump as a .30-06 at 300-325.

just get a 300 rum and be done with it. if you don't mind a heavy rifle get a sendero or a 700p. my 700p with scope weighs about 12# recoil is not bad at all and a 200gr at 3200fps is wicked medicine

Likely I'd go 06 with a 180 @ 2750 and mainly cause I can get the rifle in a lighter and more compact rig generally.

I feel that there's a high likely hood that the up and coming 84L is gonna be the most model perfecto factory rifle ever made.

At this time as much as I don't like certain things about it the Montana in 300 wsm is the model perfecto rig! I don't like it's beer belly and I wish that it had a skosh more weight in the tube. If the tube was 23" and .6" at mzl now that rig would speak to me.

Dober

The .300 WM kicks more, cost more to shoot, but only produces a 1-2" flatter trajectory. That is hardly worth it.

i get 3106fps with a 180 outta my 300wm. don't own a 06 what can they do with a 180gr.

I don't mind the kick, I just about hate the weight anymore though.

Dober

jeez, I dunno... A 12 pound rifle sounds like just the ticket for a late November mountain hunt, snow to the knees, 9000 feet elevation, scree slopes and side hills steep as a cow's face...

300 all the way

It did to me too, when I was 19...

Dober

I've owned both, and where I hunt, 200 yards is getting to be a long shot, so the '06 would be my choice, here. Now, if you were to be consistently shooting beyond 300, and more towards the 400 yard type shot, I would think hard about the .300 WinMag. With a 165 grain bullet, it has a wicked flat trajectory (but for deer, so does a 25-06), and where I would really consider it is if I needed to use heavier bullets.

A 300 WinMag with 200 grainers is a potent rifle for bigger game than deer, and the heavier bullets is where the big 30s will really shine.

If Elk (as you originally mentioned) were on the table, at longer range, I would have to vote .300 WinMag.

It's pretty hard to beat a 300 winchester magnum as a long range elk/deer cartridge,if you can shoot it well.....I've noticed the best 300 magnum shooters tended to be real riflemen, shooting a few thousand rounds a year from various rifles....many "two box a year" 300 magnum shooters I've seen were real bums,and far better served with something they could manage.

300WSM, it's way better than an '06.....(grin)

Ahem...

Id go with the .300 Win. just cause Im too old to think "WSM"

For that matter, I think the .300 Win. is a little " Buck Rogers" compared to the .300 H&H...which as we all know is the consummate elk cartridge......



Ingwe

With the premium ammo you can get these days, the 06 will do what the 300 standard ammo does. For example, with Federal premium ammo in 180 gr Barnes MRX bullets, you will still have over 1500 ft/lbs at 500 yards. Plenty for your purposes.

A (nice)300 H&H is on the wish list.
Just the sound of it has panache.

Its the only thing with sloping shoulders that I consider "sexy".....

Ingwe

So glad that you clarified that for us -- my shoulders slope.

. . . . . . . . . or is that droop?

Dooooood!





Ingwe

Course Ingwe is right....

The best 300's are the H&H and the Weatherby.....

Weatherby?.....Bob, we gotta talk....


hopefully over a few cold ones.....


Ingwe

i shot a hog with my dad's weatherby one time at 20 yds. damn bullet just bounced off and the hog ranoff

I'm thinking at 500 yds a 300 magnum shooting a 200 grain bullet is better equipment than a 30/06 with a 180 grain bullet. But ONLY if your up to the task of shooting 500 yds. I know that I wouldn't try it. Best of luck...

idahoguy101

With the modern ballistic drop compensation scopes like a Leupold Boone & Crockett reticle for example, they can be set to drop the bullet right in at 400, 450, or 500 yards. So the advantage of higher velocity for flat shooting is not as important as it used to be! In fact this scope has a special setting for the slower game bullets like a 180 30-06.

If you are worried about the sharp recoil of a 300 win mag vs a milder 30-06 you could split the difference in recoil and shoot a 180 300 WSM. Happy Hunting

For the guys that are advocating the 300 H&H- Would you get that in a cap lock or flintlock?

Royce

I favor the 06 for one among an arsenal of "several" rifles which might be well covered quite well by the 300. I just rarely need a rifle that heavy. If I need the power of more recoil, I step up in bore size as well.

This guy didn't stop a 190 cup and core run diagonally through at 399 yards.

Fred, that was mean......



Ingwe

Laker............I`d say that you`d be happy with either.

For the 300 Win, can you handle the added recoil? If you don`t reload, willing to pay extra for 300 factory ammo? If you do reload, willing to pay extra for more powder and 300 brass?

But as the `ol saying goes, "no deal is a good deal, unless you get what you want."

Assuming you`re not concerned with added recoil, ammo cost or reloading costs, there are two factors to the 300`s favor. More down range energy and flatter bullet trajectory.

Keep in mind that if you reload, you can always reduce the 300`s power down to 30-06 levels.

This is just a personal preference that I use, but I like a good solid 1500 lbs of downrange energy at impact for elk.

You can use an "external" ballistics calculator like the one on the Hornady site in order to compare these two cartridges from a downrange ballistic standpoint. Type in all the info requested and compare the two...... Very informative and fun to do!

.....but funny....Royce always makes me chuckle!

Get the 300. You won't have to suffer the shame of being seen with an -06.

But if that had been 401 yards......

The critters won't know the difference, only your shoulder will. If you can handle the recoil...300 win, if not nothing wrong with an '06

I own a 300 Win, and if I had it to do all over again, I'd go -06 (or better yet 7mm Rem Mag or 270 Win). The 300 really shines with 180 or 200gr projectiles. For reasonable hunting distances, the 300 really has little to offer over the 30-06.

That being said, I've made a commitment to myself to learn to shoot the rifle well. I always carry the 300 to every range session with 20 or more rounds, no matter what other rifles I'm shooting. I'm learning how to handle the recoil and my confidence is going up.

txduckman07- Great post. Learning to shoot your rifle is far more important than caliber...or a bunch of other things.
While I too chose the 300 Win Mag, I believe that a man that had learned to use a 308 or 06, with that very same 180 gr bullet, could hunt every bit as effectively, at any range.
A couple hundred feet of velocity is pretty much irrelevant in field performance. Ability to shoot is always relevant.

neither get the 300 roy there is something about them rounded shoulders

.30-06 Springfield has served me well for over 20 years.
Oh, and by the way, over the years I've had .300 Win Mag. .300 WSM, .30-06, and .308 Win. The first 2 have been gone a long time.

Then I might have needed to use a Partition to get it done. (Oh, that's right, Partitions are old news just like the '06 is now. )

Long live the old news which is still good news.

This isn't meant to be rude in any way, but if you have to ask, you better choose the .30-06, based on recoil alone. I know WAY too many guys that did the "macho" thing and bought the .300 based on 'crowd' recommendations (mostly guys that have never really hunted, but are experts).

The .300 is not a beginners caliber. It is best served in the hands of a seasoned shooters/hunters that can handle the recoil without flinching. Most guys that buy into the .300 magnum mind thinking can't hit their arse with both hands after 2-3 shots, due to severe flinching. The .300 has a very sharp recoil curve.

No animal is really going to tell the difference between the two calibers. .30-06 ammo can be had at Wallmart for $14 a box. Military ammo is even cheaper for fun and practice. You don't need premium bullets for the .30-06 either. I shoot them both and love them, but I shoot the .30-06 SOOOO much better. I don't have to think about how far away my eye is from the scope when I shoot either. I don't have to worry about uphill shots with the .30-06 to avoid getting cut. I have to really concentrate when shooting the .300 to keep from getting a magnum eyebrow. Flinch

Flinch,

Not sure about your area but here that $14 box of rem cor-locs or the winny power points is now $23 to $27.
And that's cheap!!!! Go to the local sporting good store and you can add $10

I know my eyes aren't up to the task and neither are my knees for a 500 yd shot. I would rather *hunt* into 100-200 range and if I spook it, my bad. After all, that's why we call it hunting for animals instead of shooting for animals.

Ouch, stand by for the abuse from the long range target shooters who use live targets. Seems like all of us born before 1950 have a different hunting ethic than the "I Sniper" crowd.
How about 18 paces with a c.1809 Baker British 61 caliber flintlock? Impossible, I know without a knob twiddling scope, bipod, wind meter, laser range finder, ATV and some monster Magnum.
Could have killed him with an 1873 44-40 and it is sure is neat when they are so close you can smell them.
(Turning on the popcorn popper)(GRIN)

*OldMan* you gave me one helluva good grin. Leaving work with a smile on my face for a change. By the way, what brand of wind meter do you use ?

Hmm, seems I saw turrets on an NXS on oldman's recent Benneli 270 WSM thread.

Should make a heckuva 18-pace rig......grin

Oooooooooh.......tough crowd...

But who deserves it more than Oldman???


Ingwe

LOL

oops.... I meant Benelli.

+2

Spot on..

I'm i w.a. and deer and bear over lap and when a big blacky is at 350 yrs its nice to knock the stuffing out of him the brush here is very thick and 300 i have used leave them right were i shot them not saying an 06 wont. a well placed shot works with even a lesser gun than an 06 but the 300 gives me, personally a little more confidence . but for early august i use a 338win mag no deer in the mix and i really like to thump bear hard the first time just my personal more is better obsession

I've owned and shot an old Belgium Browning in '06 since 1970 and another in .300 WM since '75. They are vastly different critters in performance depending upon the powder and bullet selection. Inside 300 yards one is as good as another, inside 100 maybe the '06 is best, but beyond 300 the magnum really shines. I suppose I like the magnum best since I can purposely take lengthy shots with assurance of a one shot kill. Those shots maybe the only ones I will get for the entire season and I would not attempt them with my '06.

within a 500 yard limit, your optics and shooting abilities are going to be far more important than your choice of cartridge.

300 or 30-06 will do fine inside that envelope..

don't dink around with a BDC type scope, develop your load for the cartridge you choose. Call the folks at Leupold and have them build you a custom turret. couple of hundred bucks and you are in the game.

no counting clicks or using mil dots, just dial and shoot..

It's really that simple, once you learn how to shoot, estimate yardage, windage, etc...

I just put a scope on the 300 mag project I have going, i'm building a 1000 yard sporter... I should follow my own advice, i'm twisting turrets like a mad man!

good luck!

I second that. I have 180 Partition's going 3000+ fps. I think it should be more than sufficient for Elk should I ever get to go again.

I have a friend that hunts Elk with a 300 WinMag and 150 CoreLokts. He goes every year to Colorado and comes home with meat.

My do-everything other load is the Nosler 150 E-Tip or Accubond @ 3280 fps.

30-06. I guess the older I get the more I like the classics.

Popcorn was good! Just because a scope has IA, doesn't meant the user is a "knob twiddler". Also because a person has a gunsafe full of all kinds of guns, doesn't dictate which one he/she MUST hunt with based on the opinions of "experts", most of whom have been hunting fewer years than the age of my "old paint"(on the left)

Where's the the different colors? Or did you mean Palamino or Dunn?


Paint Hores's

30-06. I mainly like lighter weight rifles. 180 AB's would be a good choice if you like them.

CLB

Klik,

That bull is sweet! How wide is that rack?

CLB

JWP, you apparently know little if anything about Paint Horses so I'll help you out. Kazi Joy will be 28 next month and is a registered Paint of the color phase known as a Palomino Overo.
He has very subtle light patches that may be seen if you have any idea what to look for. Was a cutting horse in his youth and knows far more about being a good horse than I ever will about riding.
You might want to check out the horse at this site.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cedarhavenfarms.com/images/gretahd.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://cedarhavenfarms.com/greta.html&h=460&w=563&sz=141&tbnid=SaKQvQwrdkSicM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpalomino%2Bovero&hl=en&usg=__skpI8OfjryA1b-6-04sjQCMN7mU=&ei=VnCJS-vRJ4mWtgeb1OWUDw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&ved=0CBIQ9QEwBg

Really not cool to try an be cool when you don't know shiet.
The other horse is a registered Quarter Horse... you want that explained as well? (GRIN)

My wife up on KJ in God's country:

I've probable got more experience with hiorse than you do AZZ wipe.

Yopur picture obviously leave a lot to be desired. I don't think that you will ever remind me of anything that I have forgotten and I am sure that you will never come up with something that I do not already know. You pmpus AZZ

http://www.apha.com/breed/colorreq.html

A. A horse meeting bloodline requirements outlined in Rule RG-015. must
have a definite �natural Paint marking�.

B. For the purpose of this rule, the term �natural Paint marking� shall mean
a predominant hair coat color with at least one contrasting area of solid
white hair of the required size with some underlying unpigmented skin
present on the horse at the time of its birth. This solid white area must
be in the prescribed zone depicted in the illustration below. In the event
the horse has a predominantly white hair coat, the term �natural Paint
marking� shall mean at least one contrasting area of the required size of
colored hair with some underlying pigmented skin present on the horse
at the time of its birth. This colored area must be in the prescribed zone
depicted in the illustration below.

C. The �natural Paint marking� as described in B above must extend more
than two-inches (2�) and be in the prescribed zone depicted in the illustration
below.

D. The �natural Paint markings� on a horse with both parents registered as
described in Rule RG-015. may be anywhere on the horse�s body or legs
behind a line:

(Reference point 1) from the base of the ear forward horizontally to
the base of the other ear; or
From the base of the ear to the outside corner of the eye, continuing to
the corner of the mouth; or
From the corner of the mouth, under the chin, to the other corner
of the mouth; or
(Reference point 2) A level line around the leg at the center of the knee.
(The center of the knee is determined by using the bony protrusions on the back of the knee as the starting point and drawing a level line horizontally around the knee).
(Reference point 3) A level line around the leg at the point of the hock.
(This hock line is determined, starting at the point of the hock and drawing a line horizontally around the hock).
The �natural Paint marking� need not be visible from a standing
position.
Non-qualifying areas include but are not limited to the following
locations:
a. Eyeballs;
b. Lips of vulva;
c. Shaft of penis;
d. Inner sheath not visible without physical manipulation of the area.
55


E. To be eligible for registration in the Regular Registry, a horse must possess
one additional Paint Horse trait (see RG-070.F.) that need not be
visible from a standing position if the �natural Paint marking�:

EXCEPTION I: occurs in an extension of a high stocking beyond reference point 2 or reference point 3. The �natural Paint marking� must
extend more than 2-inches, be one solid white area and have some
underlying unpigmented skin. The extensionmust be in excess of two
inches above the line specified (either horizontally or vertically).

EXCEPTION II: occurs in an extension of a face marking beyond
reference point 1. The �natural Paint marking� must extend more
than 2-inches, be one solid white area and have some underlying
unpigmented skin. The extension must be in excess of two inches beyond the line specified (either horizontally or vertically).



F. Additional Paint Horse traits for purposes of this registration rule are listed
below. These traits alone do not qualify a horse for the Regular Registry.

White leg markings extending above the knee and/or hocks;
Glass, blue or watch eye(s);
Apron face or bald face, described as outside a line from the inside
corner of the eye to the inside corner of the nostril;
White on the jaw or lower lip;
Blue zone around a �natural Paint marking�;
Two color mane, one color being natural white;
Dark areas or freckles in white hair on the face or legs;
White areas in the non-visible zone, excluding the head, completely
surrounded by a contrasting color;
A contrasting area of another color in the non-visible zone including
the head, on the predominantly white horse.
G. Any horse registered in the Regular Registry which has marginal color,
or color which may not be easily observable, shall have noted in the
�remarks� section of their registration certificate the size and locations of
the qualifying area. If inspected, the date of inspection shall be noted

I have used the 30-06 with 180 gr. Noslers or Woodleighs and the 300 H&H with 200 gr. Noslers or Woodleighs for years..I like them both...I would probably go with the 300 H&H with 200 gr. Noslers or Woodleighs for elk, Moose. I would not feel undergunned with the 30-06 with 180 or 200 gr. bullets however.

Then you have the .338 Win. a round I dearly love for about anything short of elephant.

JWP, you are great at cut and paste BUT I have the registration papers and would gladly supply you a copy if you email me your address and send $50.00 for the cost of notarized copies.

What you THINK you know does not comport with the facts.
Wonder how that paint in the link I sent you passed muster since she is a virtual twin to my old gelding..... hmmm?

Sorry you're wrong and I'm right and that's all there is to that.

Now back to the 30-06, 300 WinMag discussion, I agree with Ray on the 300 H&H since it is a better feeder and to quote Pet Loads, the more efficient 30 caliber magnum (output vs input).

My ancient (1952) 721 AC (love that 26" cut rifled barrel) still shoots MOA or better and when it goes "bang" animals die with, thus far, one shot. I happen to prefer the 168 TSX but Nosler and Woodleigh bullets are also among the best.

I don't care what the horse is. I know at on time the Paint Assc. would register them if they had color without being of Paint blood lines

The problem is your condicending Pompous responce's. To say that another posters doesn't know as much as they think is like the black kettle calling the pot black

You are certainly your favorite person and are nowhere near the authority that you seem to think that you are.

Of course you never post any authority's word or cut and pastes that backs up your rude posts. I would surmise that's because there isn't any

"I don't care what the horse is. I know at on time the Paint Assc. would register them if they had color without being of Paint blood lines"

Did you mean "at ANY time"? Or "at ONE time". Musta been a L-O-N-G time ago as my horse is pushing 30.

Why don't you put up or shut up? More fun to sling BS ?

I have the papers and have made you an offer to get a copy.
You gonna QUACK or do something?

BTW, here's yet another link (one of thousands) to a REGISTERED PAINT that bears a slight (LMAO) resemblance to mine (LAFFIN)

http://www.showhorse.com/users/horse_info.aspx?id=215141

When are you gonna admit you don't know squat?

So what does your paint/palomino feel is the better choice, 06'-or 300?

I would vote for a 300 wm.

I also vote for palomino, no paint. just saying.

Looks like Barbie's horse(which is a palomino).

Greetings.....I posted on ask the gunwriters a while back about the 300 WSM and the tikka T3 and Sako A7.....as everybody probably knows the tikka is a long action with a bolt stop for the 308 length cartridges and the A7 can be had either long or short or mag short for the WSM's....i think i'm going to go with the 300WM in the tikka T3 stainless for a couple of reasons....i believe that limbsaver makes a pad for the T3 ( please correct me if i'm wrong).....i think it could use a limbsaver because of the light weight....i want to shoot that 200gr. AB with that astronomical BC....i have a tikka 6.5X55 and the accuracy claims are good by me so far......i want the rifle to be capable of the long range shot thats maybe not at the best angle because i live east and will probably not be able to go west or alaska but a couple of times....$$$$$......i think i may need the confidence of the paper ballistics while afield....i can't see going all that way and having the animal just a little to far....i'm gonna shoot....from what reading the recoil is gonna be stiff even after the limbsaver and the weight 0f a leupold 3X10 40mm....i'll spend the time and the $$$$ at the range until i can shoot it well in all positions.....at least thats my plan....regards......bearit.....forgot to mention just got a 5 rd. clip for my 6.5 for varmint hunting,a little expensive....i have to admit you have to get used to the look of it....it does stick down from the belly of the gun butfor me it does not really interfere with carry of the gun....i know that the 30/06 has always gotten the job done but as MY large game(moose,elk brown bear hunting may be a once or maybe twice in a lifetime thing i'm gonna go with the 300WM for the extra reach.....bearit....

welll ifing you could get either one of them and shot my ass i would really appreciate it.that old sum bitsh been riding my ass going on 30 yr.tired of that old [bleep] monkey on my back. cheap basturd won't even give me a apple now and then. keeps calling me a paint because of some paper he got. [bleep] only paint that been on me was when his old lady threw a pail at trying to shut his ass up and some splatted on me.you boys is smart can see a palomino right off. he rode me bareback once when he first got me and left a stinky brown spot on my back. when the misses saw it he told her i was a paint and thats been his story since. he has a brother named Al Gore got the same problem. [bleep] flies wish he'd clean this pelosie out of my stall

mister jwp475 i can see you know horses wish you'd take this old blowhard on a bear hunt. he's rotten enough to use for bait if thats legal .you could tie him up out about 1000yd bet his old azz would be praying you could longrange his butt before the bear started chewing on him

You know there was a time when I felt you were unfairly picked on, not just here but on other sites.
I was wrong...

The 200-gn Accubond is a damn good longer range bullet from a .30 magnum if your rifle will shoot it well.

As to actually using it at a range where what it does for a guy actually matters- buy a LRF and practice, practice, practice!

300 win for me, especially if I want to use a 200gr pill(which I prefer, AB or NP).

i've owned and killed elk with both. all my 300's are gone now and these days i just stick with the 30-06 (and 180gr partitions).

I have both. I don't know which is better or which I like better. To simplify things, I shoot 165's in the '06 and 200's in the 300 win mag. Now, if I could only figure out what to do with all those 180 partitions.

I have both and perfer the 300wm, but ask me in 20 years and I will probably not even have a 300wm. so goes the cycle.

kc never been on another site just got access to this pc that oldman put out in the barn still trying to figure it out. typing with your tongue is hard

makes me think there are two types of magnums , power and / or trajectory. The 300 does increase range approx 100yds over an 06, do these few inches mean much on an animal larger than wt deer, most likely not. Does the extra power of the 300 make a differance over an 06? Well if you run the bullet faster then it will expand more when its on the animal so penetration with a bullet from a 300 and an 06 are similiar. i sold a 300win and bought a 3006, because it kills as well ,ranges as well, comes in a light short package if desired. Like other posters have mentioned........if you need more than an 06 then you need alot more so for me the next step is to a good medium bore. Point of interest, a 168TSX at 2900fps and a 200gr AccuBond at 2625fps out of an 06 will have almost the same trajectory and the 200gr AB will pack 20+ % more pwer all the way out to 500+yds. At ranges beyond 300yds you will need a range finder or be well practiced at estimating distances anyway and the 06 will kill with any resonably placed shot at that distance.

You would be correct on both counts. A palomino is a color phase not a distinct breed.

"In the United States, some palomino horses are classified as a color breed. However, unlike the Appaloosa or the Friesian, which are distinct breeds that also happen to have a unique color preference, Palomino color breed registries often accept a wide range of breed or type if the animals are properly golden-colored. The Palomino cannot be a true horse breed, however, because palomino color is an incomplete dominant gene and does not breed "true". A palomino crossed with a palomino may result in a palomino about 50% of the time, but could also produce a chestnut (25% probability) or a cremello (25% probability). Thus, palomino is simply a partially expressed color allele and not a set of characteristics that make up a "breed."

A Paint is a recognized breed with an association for them.

I fail to understand why ignorance of easily obtainable facts is endorsed by some in an effort to advance their personal agenda.

Being a keyboard commando and internet bullyboy does not make the man.

Any "larger" 30 caliber from a 300 Savage to a 30-378 Weatherby will kill any big game in the lower 48 if the "nut behind the bolt" is a capable hunter and shooter. Much ado about nothing.

Well this is got interesting, from which cartridge for Elk and Deer out to 450 yards or so 30-06 vs the 300 Winchester to some thing about horses or the back side of one. Well 450 yards is getting a bit on the long side, either would do if you can see it and you can dope out drop and more important doping out the wind. There is always going to be trade offs, shootablity vs light enough to carry all day for days on end, after all its hunting not target shooting. That being said, shoot what you what to shoot and leave it at that. As for horses I don't know anything about horses other than I did a little riding when I was a child. So I will not say anything about horses. You could split the difference and go with either a 7mm Remington or 7mm Weatherby and the game would not know the difference and you could build a very nice shootable and carryable rifle to boot.

I have yet to meet a deer/antelope/elk I can't get inside 400 yards of. Of course I am handicapped...no noisy ATV to "extend" the range.(GRIN)

Great self description.... Finaly something we all can agree on...... Admiting your short comings is the first step to recovery... Congradulations

i can attest to the handicap part. to dumb to drive a atv thats why i have to carry his sorry azz around. he's been that way since i kicked him in the head.he never learned a apple a day will keep the hooves a way

just got back form the range shooting the new 300 win mag

Remington 700 custom shop gun
Shilen match grade barrel
Bushness 4200 Elite 5-15 Target

put 35 rounds thru in four hours

Hornady HPBT 168 gr loaded fairly hot2900-3000 fps inch and a quarter groups

Sierra Matchking 190 gr loaded 2700-2800 fps
three quarter inch groups.

took me about 8 rounds to get dialed in at 100..

no muzzle break, at round 35 i didn't flinch but i darn well knew i was done for the day!

Learned a little bit today

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if you aren�t comfortable shooting past 200 yards that�s fine by me.

Some of my easiest hunts resulted in my closest shots and my hardest hunt, a 6 hour stalk, resulted in my longest shot (350 yards) right at the end of shooting light. Although I�ve gotten close enough to reach up and touch belly fur, I don�t buy the suggestion made by some that it is always possible to get closer - often, through no fault of the hunter, it just isn�t.

There were many years when I thought 200 yards was �long range�. It wasn�t until I started shooting at longer ranges that the veil fell from my eyes and I discovered just how close 200 yards really is. These days I regularly shoot clay pigeons at 400 yards, steel gongs at 500 and, lately, clay pigeons and steel gongs at 600 yards. While I try to get close, I�m confident of my ability at longer range, too. In years past I have often come home empty-handed after turning down what I considered �long� shots. Now, if and when the time comes, elk at 500 yards will be more of a chip shot than a problem.

Define �hunting� any way you want, but I suggest that it is a poorly prepared hunter that is incapable of taking shots longer than 200 yards. Being capable but choosing not to do so is a different matter altogether.

Come hunt the elk migration routes through open sage country with me. The elk often go for miles without stopping and typically end up in another Unit or on private land, safe in either case. You can't catch them in a tail chase so you take the shots that are offered or take a pass.

This was the area where I took my longest shot to date. After 6 hours of �getting closer� I was finally able to take a 350 yard shot right at the end of shooting light. My hunting buddies got nothing.


This one I got lucky on � the herd had passed me and turned back around. I ended up with a lasered 213 yard shot with my .45-70. Then they were gone.



I got lucky here, too. We watched a herd come off the hills on the horizon. While I was lining up for a 500 yard shot a hunter on another hill took a shot and turned the herd. They came up right in front of me and I ended up with a 40-yard shot (after turning down closer ones). After I took my shot they were quickly over a fence and onto private land.


I applaud trying to get closer but sometimes it just isn't possible.

By the way, I don't have an ATV - or horses, either. We do it on foot.

What he said!

With the Hornady Light Mags in 180 grain, you can get 2900 FPS. Handloading will get you close to that (upper 2800's) as well. The new Hornady Superperformance ammo is supposed to give you performance as good or better than the Light Mags, but I havent seen any numbers on it yet.

At safe, attainable-for-everyone speeds, an '06 will reliably run 180's in the mid-low 2800's...

By the same criteria, a 300 WM will run 200's in the upper 2800's...

The 200-gn Accubond (for instance) really drills through wind and will retain velocity and energy better than a 180, as well as penetrating deeper on average.

Whether any of this matters is left as an exercise to the reader. Personally, as I said earlier, I love the 30-06; was shooting mine again today (yesterday too) out to 600+ yards. And I like my 300 WM too, but it's in a heavier rifle set up for long range.

But anyway, a lightweight sporter in 300 win has no appeal to me; it's not enough of a step up from the potent and very shootable '06 to justify the recoil. For the amount of recoil a 300 WM sporter dishes out I'd rather run a .338. Which I do.

I'd guess that with longer than 22" tubes (on 06's) that one could go to 28 plus. But in the normal 22" tubes I've found that I can get to 2800 and then some if I push it, but I've had to push it harder than I prefer to get there.

When I was younger I'd of pushed it to get there but as I've gotten more mature (aka older) for me it's just not worth it. Give me a LRF, dotz, or turrets and I'll get there just fine without pushing it.

Dober

I use neither today for the game mentioned,but this is mostly because I really don't care for 300 magnum recoil anymore, and decided15-20 years ago that I didn't need the fuss and bother so just continued using a 7mag of some sort for the same things......

That said, a few years back when I wanted a 400-500 yard elk rifle,I built a 300 mag;I actually built several in 300 Win Mag,300 Weatherby,and 300H&H;hunted them all,but my favorite was a H&H-length 300 Winchester with 24" Krieger SS barrel and Brown Precision stock that weighed about 8 pounds all up.With perfectly safe loads it gave 3125-3150 with a 180 gr Partition;and about 3250 with 165 Bitterroots.It was light enough to lug in rough country;recoil(then) was tolerable;it shot flat,and killed elk with impunity.

I also had a 300 Weatherby that would do 3200 easily with a 180...

Bout the same time I had 30/06's and I read of those that would break 2800 with a 180 and safe loads,but never owned any....in any event I could not see the sense in it as I just simplisticly figured ...."why fight for 2800 with an 06 when I could easily get 3100-3200 from a 300 magnum?"

Back then we had no range finders and had to use scope reticle subtension,our instincts, honed through lots of varmint shooting and pacing-off shots,and hours on the range,to determine distances.We became pretty good at it,so we zeroed these flat shooting loads at 300 yards, and (from actual shooting out to 600 yards,not reading bullistic tables)we found that 300 magnums left the 30/06 in the dust with any bullet weight clear out to 600 yards.From a 300 yard zero,these loads were down 8-9" at 400 yards,and 2 feet at 500.....at 600 the bottom post was your aiming point in a fixed 4X scope,where the bullet dropped 4 feet.

Yes Matilda, we could actually kill them that far away without dots,B&C reticles,rangefinders,and other paraphenalia,mostly because we could shoot, knew our rifles,and shot a lot.All this meant was that we were still on hair at 400 yards,and "no" we did not miss them at 70-225 yards because of silly mid-range issues and other trivial nonsense(I never heard of such drivel till I started hanging out on the internet).

(BTW figuring 8-9" of drop to 400 yards is not "holding high and guessing". It is actually rather simple to hold a high shoulder aim point and have the bullet drop handily into the chest cavity.This is simple stuff and requires nothing with a properly zeroed and accurate rifle.There is no "guessing" involved except for the unknowing.....)

So trajectory was important back then(as it is today;I suspect some on here would go apoplectic if the ol' Leica did not give the range reading down to the final inch....many would not know what to do...), and we compared these combo's to lots of others and the big 7's found most favor....everyone dumped the 338's and they became dust collectors and safe queens....in the field I never saw a difference between a 300 with good bullets and a 338.....I left those to the Elmer Keith disciples and just continued to kill stuff, near and far,with the 300's....


I suppose an 06 shooter might get the same things done,but he may have to go to the dots quicker than a good guy with a 300........he will likely kill them just as dead.

Good read BobinNH you come from the same ole school I went to. Had my trusty ole daisy BB gun and just hold over a foot and dope 6" for wind and kill a sparrow at 35 yards. Same priciple wer'e just using bigger BB's now.When you shoot 500 BB's a week you can get perdie handy.

I am in awe of you olde-timers. We are truly standing on the shoulders of giants.

Bob,

in my experience, bullet for bullet, best loads from the 06 and the winnie might have as much as 12" difference in POI from a 20 mph crosswind at 400...

deflection is significant with either, but i'll take the speed advantage every time when shooting in open country...

amongst fast .30s the winnie is easily the easiest to load for, and most businesslike cartridge going...
it is easier to find in a properly stocked rifle than the H&H, thereby making it the most user friendly...

i have qualms about trading my old 700, but the new M70 EW makes me itchy...

For me it isn�t so much the increase in velocity, its what that extra velocity does. The .300 WM can add about 125-150 yards to what the .30-06 can do in terms of retained velocity and energy. In other words, at 500 yards the .300 WM will do what the .30-06 will do at 350-375 yards.

Additional recoil? Yes, but still far less than other rifles I own. When I really want to reach out and thump something I grab the .300 WM, not one of my two .30-06�s.

Less powder? Frankly, I don�t care. My .300 WM hunting loads burn about 10.5g to 14.5g more than my .30-06 loads. At worst I�m looking at 482 rounds fired to burn a pound of powder. Since I have other rifles to play with, at the current rate of .300 WM consumption that�s probably about 5-6 years � figure less than $5 per year, nothing I�m going to give a second thought to. Especially since I ***LIKE*** shooting and hunting with the .300WM.

Factory ammo? I ran a couple boxes of Winchester through the rifle when I first got it and didn�t have the dies yet. Don�t really care what the factories offer.

Cheaper factory ammo? As a handloader I don�t care. Apparently a lot of non-handloaders don�t care, either, based on the number that own .300 WM rifles...

Around here (Colorado), any place that has .30-06 hunting ammo is likely to have .300 WM hunting ammo as well.

Never understood the belt thing, although it offends my aesthetic senses. Started reloading for my 7mm RM in 1982 and have never had a problem with the belt.

Like velocity, it isn�t about the drop � its about the extra 125-150 yards you get for a specified level of retained energy or velocity.

As a shooter of a .30-30, .308 Win, two .30-06 and a .300 WM, I recognize they all have their advantages. I shoot steel and clay pigeons at 400, 500 and 600 yards with the everything but the .30-30, and would happily take an antelope at 600 even with the .308 Win. For elk at 600 I�ll take the .300 WM every time.

Don't be a wise guy Jeff;here'a a clue....some of my hunting buddies are younger than you!

Such cartridges(if they are comfy to shoot)are better today than they were 20-30 years ago;you have better,more accurate bullets, better scopes.I shot yesterday at 600 yards with an S&B Summit that made 600 yards seem like childs play from the standpoint of being able to see.

And you can have MOA rifles right outta the box that used to take us the better part of a year to put together.

Either the 30/06 or 300 mags are just great cartridges that, with todays scopes and LRF's will take a guy a pretty long way and both will do the job up close. The 30/06 is not chump change.I love mine!

John, I don't doubt the wind issue.....there are folks here who know what they are doing in wind,but I can't claim to be one of them.I know enough, though,to stay off the trigger in a full value wind at long range.

I have seen wind do some funky things to bullets when hunting and shooting out west.

30/06 unless i knew the shot would be over 500 yards

Don't take offense to this but if your asking I assume you may be a novice hunter. Pick the 30/06 and DON'T SHOOT AT ANYTHING ANYWHERE NEAR 450 yds! That's a long shot, get closer or pass it up. The 30/06 will do all you need to do and is easier to shoot.

Nothing spells success like . . . . . . . . . . . . . . success!

Wise guy? Who... lil' old me?

I've had a rennaisance with my 30-06 for the last year at least. For a while it was kind of the red-haired stepchild in my safe. But it just got a scope upgrade and is back in the game.

Partly (like we talked about) this is because I intend to do a quality mule deer hunt soon and I'd love to get one with that rifle.

I'm jealous of your Summit.

Hard not to like a 30/06,Jeff I like mine!It has one of those 4X Conquests on it.....

You can have a Summit, too.....I have fewer nice scopes than you

Do you know where you're gonna chase the mule deer?

I got my first deer with that '06, and got a nice blacktail with it while hunting with an old college buddy I hadn't seen in over a decade... it's a lucky rifle. On top of that it's very accurate and feels great in my hands in that Mountain LSS stock. Love it.

I have flirted with the idea of selling off X number of scopes and rifles, with the end goal being to have fewer, but truly first-rate, items. It's a thought. I love my rifles too much though, I think.

Uh... what's a Summit cost anyway? Dare I ask?

I have not decided on the fargin' mule deer hunt yet. It has the problems we talked about. Mostly, I have all these damn pref points for Oregon, but, I don't know anyone ELSE who does except my brother, whom I've been buying points for for the last 8 years. And he's not in a position to really do a proper hunt (baby in the house, wife working and in school, etc). So I'm in this wierd limbo.

That said, my elk buddy Jerry says he'll go with me to spot and just be along for the ride if I do (say) a Trout Creek Mountains or Steens hunt. Those are two of the primo areas. Deer numbers are "down" compared to some years, they say, however.

I don't know what to do, I just know I want to DO IT!

Jeff, check with Doug but the Summit was about $1400 IIRC...it's a lot of money but then, when it comes to optics these days I don't know what alot is anymore...

Price of good glass makes me like iron sights that much more.I'm gonna hunt moose this year with my 45 Kentucky muzzleloader.

It's been my observation that the 300WM is one fine elk round. Maybe as good as it gets. I've killed some elk with one,actually a 30-338 version, but I never liked the recoil, especially from awkward field positions. But, that's me. My opinion is that a guy ought to shoot the biggest round/rifle he can handle. The trick is being honest with oneself about that. My test is to do some offhand shooting and if I don't flinch to much then I consider the recoil level OK for me.

I have never liked the 300 win mag and like the 7mm rem even less(not trying to start anything here so do not flame me).IMHO if I need more gun than a 30/06 it would be to shoot bigger heavier bullets not shoot the same bullets faster.The only real edge the 300 would have is at the furthest reaches of hunting distances which is further than most of us should be shooting to begin with.
The 300win mag. is about the largest round most guys can shoot which pleases the he-man found in most guys. If more gun is needed a fellow should be looking at a 338 win instead.

I still recommend the 30/06 with 165's-180's and then find the 325 hard to beat shooting 200-220's and/or the 338win mag with 225-250's if a guy wants "bigger" than the 06. Again this is just my thought on the subject,not saying I am right.

Stew I love my 300 Win mag dearly.I wouldn't be without one.

Hey not flaming the 300 win.Hope nobody gets to upset with me. I really miss my 300Roy which is a great round and only a little bit better than the winchester if there is any dif at all. I just think if more power is needed than the 30/06 then the 8mm mag,325 wsm,338 win is needed,hence my love for those three.

7STW we all love different rounds for different reasons,that is why we have so many. All my buddies shoot 300winnies(you included)so maybe I am one of those guys that just needs to be different.I have never,nor ever will,tell anyone the round is no good it is a great round.Its just not on my list of calibers I want.

kinda fell the same if my.308 ulrtalite cant do it i will move to a 300 mag or bigger so no need for the old 06 but if cant afford all i like the 06 with handloads would be good compramise

Damn. Well said.

.325 is pretty sweet...

Let�s face it � if you can�t get it done with a .30-30 you just need to learn to �hunt� rather than �snipe�.

A .308 Win has way more recoil than a �hunter� needs to put up with and that recoil makes it difficult to shoot well. Don�t even get me started on the .30-06 or, more ridiculous yet, the .300 Win Mag.

It�s an invariable rule - the bigger the cartridge, the smaller the shooter�s man parts! People that shoot a .300 Win need a magnifying glass to take a whiz.

Actually wrong but nice try.

I agree with all but the last statement as I have no profound knowledge on that topic. The 300 Savage and 30-40 Krag may be the most under rated and over looked 30 cal cartridges around.

.....................Coyote Hunter! And your next jokes are??????

Would you take a 30-30 on a sheep hunt, where the killing ranges are likely to be beyond 400 yards? What if one can`t get closer without spookin the game and yet still have an opportunity for a 400+ yard shot on a nice trophy??

Would you take a 30-30 on an open plains pronghorn hunt? Open ranged elk hunt? How about them big bears? 30-30 for them too?

The 30-30 has its good uses for what is was designed to do, which may fit perfectly into your particular,,,,,"shorter ranged",,,,hunting needs.

Although I cannot speak for the others, I will speak for myself. Now maybe you think a 180 grainer fired from a 308 is "more recoil" than most hunters need. But for me, and I`ll bet for quite a few others as well, that is,,, "chump change",,, recoil.

And!.........Speaking again for myself anyway, and after 35+ years of reloading/shooting/hunting with a 300 Win Mag, plus 3 years of reloading/shooting/hunting with a 300 WSM including 2 years reloading/shooting/hunting with a 375 Ruger, plus shooting experience with a bunch of other hi-powered magnums, (with great accuracy), I can`t still find my privates without looking down, AND without the need of a magnifyer.

Could it be,,,that you yourself,,,can`t handle the biggys and shoot them straight???? Sounds like you`re a little jealous there uh????????????.....LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Laker,
Skipping over 6 pages of postings, I'll tell you right now that you should use the 30-06. For a lot of reasons, many of which were probably posted. The cheaper cost of ammo is a big one unless you are a handloader. The rifle will be a little lighter and shorter and the cartridge will be easier to master. Don't get me wrong, a 300WM in capable hands is a very lethal weapon.
But a 30-06 will be easier to gain confidence because of the recoil. You can master your skill level with cheaper ammo and move up to the premium stuff for elk. A standard cup and core is plenty for deer. Don't buy into the magnumitis, it is not really needed that often. A hunters' ego demands it more than the big game does.

I should add that this comes from 16 30-06 elk kills in my group to date from 75 yards to 425 yards - 6 from the 270Win and 10 from the 30-06. Good luck.

OK, here's the deal.
I shoot my .375 Ruger with about as much recoil worry as I do a .223! I don't think of it at all. And my .375 weighs just 7-3/4 lbs.
Everyone has a different level of tolorance for recoil. Does that mean I should stop at YOUR recoil level for MY best shooting? Rediculous!
That's for everyone to decide for themselves.
I have owned a dozen or more 06s, and like them a lot for their lighter weight, and shorter overall length in thicker stuff.
I also have a .300 WM, and like it a lot for open country shooting where ranges can stretch a ways farther. They are both tools, and both handle their jobs well for their intended purposes. But, they are tools. Asking which is better is like asking which is better, a boat or a plane! It depends on the job it is meant to do.
My favorite caliber for most of what and where I hunt is my .375 Ruger and 300 grain RN bullets. But that does not make it better or worse then someone else's choice.
But it's MY choice.
I like an exit hole from any angle on large animals.

P.S. I like BIG holes!

Actually, I don�t agree with ANY of the statements I made, which I tried to indicate with the winky ( ) at the end of my post. Anyone that has read many of my posts would, I hope, realize I was being facetious in the extreme.

While I do have a Marlin .30-30 and enjoy shooting it, the .30-30 is a big game virgin in my hands. Not so with my Remington .308 Win, Ruger .30-06 or Ruger .300 Win Mag. (Nor my Ruger 7mm Rem Mag or my Marlins in .375 Win and .45-70, for that matter.)

The truth is I don�t believe it�s always possible to get closer, that the .300 Win Mag has intolerable recoil or that people can�t shoot magnums well or that choosing a magnum necessarily indicates lack of confidence in one�s manhood. (Or womanhood, whatever.)

Well, you got that right � it was a joke.



I�ve often stated that it is not always possible to �get closer� and no, I wouldn�t choose a .30-30 for a sheep hunt where ranges were likely to be 400 yards.



To be serious, I haven�t, but I haven�t taken an antelope I couldn�t have taken with a .30-30, either. The last was at 300 yards, a stretch, but I shoot the .30-30 at that range frequently and a 170g Partition RN would still do the job � antelope just aren�t that big.



Would, and have. Without success, but that is beside the point � carrying my .300 Win Mag wouldn�t have changed the outcome on those days.



I think I�d rather have my Marlin .45-70...

That said, more than one big brown has been turned to rug by a .30-30.


Scroll up a ways and you will find a picture of my red F250 in an area where I took a 6x5 bull elk at 350 yards. With my 7mm RM. I actually practice out to 600 yards, the longest range at my local club. Clay pigeons at 400, the steel gongs at 500 and clay pigeons and steel at 600 are my favorite targets. I don�t shoot them with the .30-30 or my other leverguns, but I do shoot them with all my bolt guns, from the .257 Roberts to the .300 WM.



Agreed. I don�t find my .308 or .30-06's objectionable, nor do I find my .300 WM objectionable. Compared to my top-end .45-70 loads they are pussycats.



No jealousy here, it was a joke. Guess you missed the winky ( ) at the end of my post. I was just, in a very facetious manner, putting forth the arguments others have made for not using magnums � arguments I�ve never agreed with.

By the way, I like my 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag a lot...

.300 Win Mag - Who woulda figured from me????

Still thinking...that I'll be taking a long look at the 84L coming out this year in an 06 and punched to Ai

Dober

......................You`re funny!!!!!! I thought you were jokin but not quite sure, so I threw a few things in anyway!!!!!!!.................LOL!!!!

By the way, I am a little jealous � you have a 375 Ruger and the closest I�ve come is to shoot one.

It�s on my wish list. (As is a .338 based on the full-size .375 Ruger case.)