I was driving back to school today and along the river there is some really thick vegetation. Its all willows, aspen, and pine trees. There has to be monster whitetails down there and i have seen moose there too. Looks good for black bears and probably elk. I got to thinking that i dont have a rifle for thick brush/woods and the 358 Win came to mind. The only thing i have that would half way qualify is a marlin 336 30-30 but i would be interested in something bigger if i ever had to hunt the thick stuff. So tell me about the 358 Win. The pros, cons, and experiences with it. I just remembered the 338 Federal. Would the 338 Federal make more sense as a woods gun? Not trying to start an arguement here but just wanted some help on deciding which one to get if i ever get a dedicated woods gun.

For a woods gun, think light and compact, easy to maneuver in brush. DO NOT think caliber. There's no such thing as as brush caliber. NONE will bull through brush without deflecting. If you don't have a clear shot, you don't have any shot.
That said, the 358 is an excellent deer/moose/bear round if you don't try to shoot brush with it.

I have a Savage Model 99 in .358 Winchester for hunting the timber in Oregon. Nice short rifle with a 1.5x5 scope. Without the scope it is a great saddle gun. Deer/moose/bear no problems.

I really don't understand why the .358; because it is my belief that the .338-08 would have been much better.

DeerTracker,

Try this link.

http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=016407629494559605640:xponie3lspc

24hourcampfire search engine.

There has been much said about the 358 Win & 338 Fed. Both are awesome woods cartridges IMHO. What sold me on the 338 federal was the Sako 85 ss I was able to buy from another member here for $725. You can't beat that with a stick. I just finished cooking up some loads for it this weekend and will shoot it soon. I have no doubts about it being effective on the deer, bear or moose I point it at.

I also have a weatherby MV 20" carbine in 308 Winchester that will see some field time especially in and around swamps and thickets.

Your 30-30 with 170gr partitions would work very well by the way.

It's good to have options in our business!

CLB

The .338-08???? That's called the .338 Federal and niether it nor the .358 are setting any sales records. Both are sort of "niche" rounds for use at medium to close range with a big punch.

In this case (thick brush / close range) the .358 or .338 Fed. would be very good choices with heavy-for-caliber bullets. While there is no bullet that will shoot "through" brush.....that's not the point. What you need is a big bore bullet that will consistantly penetrate and exit even on less-than-perfect shots. It's all about leaving a good blood trail and the "shock" that a good big bore gives you (and YES...big bores DO hit harder at close range no matter what the "experts" shooting their .243's and .257's say).

While the .30-30 "may" give enough penetration (I'd feel a lot better about it if you hadn't thrown in the possibility of Elk and Moose)....it will not consistantly leave as good a blood trail as the bigger rounds and the "reaction" to the shot by the animal will be less (on average). It's that "reaction" that is critical. While the big bores won't kill all that much quicker (although they DO kill somewhat quicker on average) the reaction to the shot may be your only clue as to a good hit in thick brush where the game is out of sight in a few feet.

Without an immediate blood trail, this can add a lot of confidence when you search for the shot-at animal. It is seldom that even fairly big game doesn't give some reaction (stumble, stagger or at least flinch) when hit by a big bore bullet at close range. This might not be so true with a smaller bore size.

The .338 Fed. and .358 Win. also give a bit more velosity (and thus range) than the .30-30 if a shot of 250-300 yards should present it's self. Both are easily 300 yard capible while the .30-30 is at it's best at less than 200 yards. If longer range is truely not an issue, I'd add the .45-70 and .375 Winchester to thelist as well. If your game didn't include Elk and Moose, I'd also consider the .44 Magnum in a rifle and the .35 Rem.

The main "problem" with the .338 Fed. and .358 is finding a suitable rifle to shoot. MOST shooters just don't a bolt-action rifle as well as they do a good lever, pump or semi-auto when fast repeat shots are called for. This can be overcome with a LOT of practice, but for the "average" hunter.....the bolt action is NOT the best choice. If you CAN shoot the bolt action well.....you can also add the .35 Whelen and 9.3x62mm to the mix of proper calibers.

Other than the Browning BLR there are few non-bolt rifles available today......that basically leaves the used gun market. My own battery of "brush" rifles includes the Savage 99 in .358, Marlin lever guns in .45-70 and .35 Rem (I also carry a Remington Model 14 in .35 remington sometimes), Wichester Big Bore in .375 Win. and a Ruger carbine in .44 mag. Any of these would be great choices for a fast, heavy-hitting "brush" rifle.

By the way......even though it's not a "big bore" (I do love te bigger guns).....don't overlook the .308 Win. for this type hunting. It is available in every type action known to man, has enough range to "reach out" and while maybe not a true big bore.....ain't that small either. It might be the best choice of all for a combination short-longer range rifle to walk the hills with.

TejasRick said a lot of good stuff there.

I have had two .358's, currently have one. It's a Model 7 that I had rebarreled. I have killed deer with several bullets, but have settled on the 225-gn Partition at about 2500 fps as the best all-arounder.

I use it because I really want my deer down NOW, or if they do not, I want a red carpet of blood. Also I hate wrecking meat and since my kills are often at close range, the goal is something tha kills fast WITHOUT going 3200 fps! And the .358 does just that.

It's a really neat cartridge.

I wouldn't even consider one unless I was a handloader, though.

My hunting partner for more than 25 years uses the 358 on elk for blk timber to open sage out to 250 yards. I have to agree that its a killer, he reloads for it. He has a Sav 99 358, Rem 760 and Rem 742 that were in .308 Win and set them out to be re-bored to the 358. I think its a good round that didn't get off the ground and assortment of bullets is not as great as in the .338 caliber. Never the less its a good short action round.

Just in the "for what it's worth" category, with a 225 Partition a .358 will hold 1800 fps out to 400 yards, with reasonable wind drift to boot.

I shoot mine out that far at targets and it does just fine (using turrets). Have not killed anything with it past about 125 yards though. It sure put the smackdown on the doe at 125 yards however!

Do not overlook the 356 Winchester Big Bore. The beefed up Model 94 won't take 358 Win. pressures but close enough that any game you shoot will not notice the difference. Chronographed velocities from a 20" barrel:
220 grain Speer 2404 fps
250 grain Hawk 2152 fps

375 win

im gonna be different and say .35 whelen

Im kind of leaning towards a 338 Federal at the moment. My brother shoots a 338 win so we have bullets around for that. My mind changes just about every day as to what gun i wanna get next. Problem is that im a broke college kid. I guess ill have to handle the ruger hawkeye we have at work tomorrow and see what i think about it. Maybe a lay away is in the future.

I see midwayusa is once again offering 358 Win
barrels for Savage 10/110 series rifles. Heck, find
a Stevens 200 in 308 and switch barrels.

Priorities....

DeerTracker,

Some good stuff here. The best bullet for hunting in the brush is one that doesn't hit any brush. I have hit brush an few times, and it messes with accuracy.., badly.

I liked the advice you received concerning quick handling rifles, and practicing a lot with it. You can learn to roll a bolt pretty quick, but it is really that first shot that is going to be your best chance at making a solid hit.

I also like that the older Savages (pre accu-trigger) and the Stevens rifles are really good platforms and are less expensive than their counter parts. If you are diligent, and patient (qualities of a good hunter), you should be able to find one of these near $300.00.

It can be in any chambering....to start with.

Midway does currently sell the 358 Winchester barrel for those rifles, the Savage, and Stevens.

For their short action offerings I like..,

1) 358 Winchester (handload 200 grain TSX)
2) 338 Federal (factory or handload)

For long actions...

1) 35 Whelen
2) 338-06

Any of those four, when loaded correctly will not disappoint and give you a good case of perma-grin.

If you want a great little handling rifle, consider the extra money for the Ruger Hawkeye Compact in 338 RCM.


Those five cartridges are very well ballanced to match what you are looking to do.

Also, there is no need for a barrel on any of those over 21"



...love my Whelen.

If you want a good brush rifle, look for a used Ruger Frontier rifle in 358, 338 or even 308. They are the perfect brush rifle with their 16" barrel and 35" overall length. You can find them on Gunbroker or GunsAmerica. You can even use a forward mounted scope or red dot. Another good brush gun is the Marlin guide gun.

Nobody has mentioned it, but if you can find a Remington Pump rifle (either Model 760 or 7600) in 35 Whelan that would be a great gun for your use. These rifles were not a catalog item, but Remington made special runs for certain dealers. A gun shop in Clearfield, PA called Grice Gun Shop often has a special run made for them.

I did a brush test with my .358 last year. Here's a link. I just bumped it to the top of this forum, also.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3540307/1

or you can mount a regular scope w/ the correct rings...
this is a 308 w/ a 2-7 leupold. very thick hunting property.
[/quote]

The merits of the 358 Winchester is the same as any other short action "Brush Gun". What most people call a brush gun has nothing to do it shooting through brush in case anyone was confused about that, a good brush gun is any short action, short barreled, light, handy, quick to point, rifle that's easier to manuever through thick woods than your average 22-24" barreled long action rifle. What makes the 358 Winchester so cool is that it has enough power to take elk and moose cleanly in a short, light, handy rifle,(the same goes for the 338 Federal) that's the same size as a rifle chambered for the 308. The 358 is a great cartridge but one thing to keep in mind is your bullet and factory ammo selection is gonna be a lot more limited than with a 338 Federal, if you handload, that's not a huge deal, but if you don't, you might want to check out the 338 Federal. Although I do handload and I'd prefer the 338 Federal only because of the better bullet selection, because then one can make loads specifically for a particular hunting application. They are both great cartridges and neither would be a bad choice, so it's really up to you. I hope that helped a bit.

Go with your gut right there. The 358Win and 338Fed are basically the same in the performance category. Though the 358 is a "has been" and the 338Fed is still fighting for its life. I'd hunt with either and be happy.

RH

I have a .358 Hawkeye and a Savage M10 rebarrled to .358, I like the cartridge a lot...However, you better handload or plan to start...finding factory ammo is like looking for teeth in a chicken.... I only found one box at a hardware store in Maine 2 years ago. But you can't go wrong with the .338 Fed...I never shot one but the idea sounds fine.

[/quote]...................I have the same identical Ruger Frontier as shown in the pic above chambered in the 300 WSM and topped with the 2.5-10x32 Sightron S2 scope.

If an ideal, fast and great handling brush rifle in a bolt action is what you`re looking for, there is none better than the Ruger compact or the Frontier version. Great dimension as a truck gun, climbing in and out of stands, carrying, speed, stalking, etc,,,you name it!

You should still be able to nail maybe a new one or a newer used one in the Frontier version from G/B, chambered in either the 338 Fed or the 358 Winny. If necessary, they`ll handle anything you want to out to 250-300 yards and maybe a little more too.

I have never fired a .338 Federal, however, I regularly use my .358 BLR. If you handload, it is an absolutely dynamite cartridge. It is accurate, it penetrates, leaves a big blood trail, & puts game down quickly.

My best loads include: Spr 180fp at 2700 fps ( great deer load & matches a 180 30-06 velocity wise ), 225 Sie at 2500 fps ( most accurate in my gun ), 225 Partition at 2500 ( all around ), & either Spr 250 at 2400 fps ( a sledgehammer at any reasonable range ).

Too many people put the .358 in the same class as the "big & slows". That is a mistake, as the .358 is a completely capable round to 300 yards and even beyond. Let's be honest; most of us don't have any business firing at something farther away than that anyway.

Jim in Colorado, I have been workin' on a load for the .358 win in my Savage....what powder are you using? I have the same Nosler 225 partition...my best groups so far have been with the Hornady FTX 200gr,,,but I want to hunt with the Nosler.
Thanks,JH

DeerTracker if you like your marlin look for one in the 356
caliber or have your gun bored and cambered or have a new barrel
mounted and then go slay all of those animals you spoke of.
By the way the 356 was brought out by winnie to give the same starting out energy level as the 358 Good luck and good hunting. Cheers NC

Try TAC. It's the shizzle in .358 with 225's.

One nice thing about the 35's you can load light cast pistol bullets in them, I did that with my old 358 Norma and used it all fall on rabbits and squirels. Talk about being able to shoot. After killing a 100 or so small game with you're rifle that big old deer is a chip shot.

erich

For light pistol bullets, try RL7. It is the shizzle for that. In fact, if one is willing to go above book max, I found that RL7 would drive 200's all the way up to 2640 fps from a 20" barrel.

If anyone is interested, there is Remington 600 that
has been rechambered to 358 WIN on the Cabelas website.
The price isnt bad at all.

now if Ruger will just do a 358RCM...

The 358 has been a very good round for me and my kids. They have had good luck using it in our BLR on deer, dropping them at the shot which builds confidence, and I know they would not be under gunned using it on Elk either.

There are a lot of solutions to hunting the thick stuff, and I spend most of hunting season in thick cover. Th 358 win is a great choice, but then we are blessed with many many great choices in the American shooting world.

I call it the 35 Whelen short!
It would be ideal for Minnesota hunters who chase deer and black bear and moose.
Nobody needs anything more for the short range shooting that the average city boy is capable of.
If you are not much for tracking skills that big blood trail is downright handy IMO.
whelennut

I need to try some TAC. Accurate powders were easily available locally and I developed some great 225 and 250gr loads with AA2520. In fact, my fastest and most accurate 225gr load is with a 225gr BT (only works in my model 70 sa's mag - not my model 7 which requires the 225 Sierra) and 2520.

338 Marlin in a lever, 338 Ruger compact in a bolt.

Ah yes, America. Where you can drive down the road looking at the scenery and when it changes, decide that's enough reason to need a new rifle. Gotta love it.

According to SAAMI specs, both 356 and 358 can be loaded to 52,000. I have both and load them accordingly. Never had any problems.

358 STA It will shoot through almost anything.

35 Whelen Short I likey that!

A T3 in 338 Federale with the barrel shortened to 21" would work well. As would a Hawkeye in the same cal.

Dober

You want to get serious about a rifle for that thick stuff? Get a good used Remington 760 pump and stoke it with 200 grain Noslers. Those Noslers will penetrate way more than you probably need, shoot flat enough to hit an elk at 400 yards, and the 760 will shoot more than accurate enough for any big game hunting. Put a neat little 2 1/2 Leupold on it and you are good to go. Go with the heavy duplex, which is a lousy rock shooting reticle, but a great animal killing reticle in low light, think timber, and regardless of what some may say, it plenty of magnification to 400 yards.

My two cents worth

Fred

Those are some really good 2 cents, do you have a 760 these days Fred?

The two 760C's in 06 that I had shot incredibly well and I need to get another one someday. I already have 3 boxes of the old 200 Noz semi's ready to rock in it.

Dober

Nope, I am out of 760s at the moment. I spend 20 minutes or so a day cycling the bolt and dry firing my bolt rifles, so hopefully, I don't give up too much in speed for follow up shots. For someone that doesn't want to put that much time into it, the 760 fills the bill I think.

Fred

Agreed! I love my .356,and use it more tham almost any other rifle. I use the 180gr Speer mostly,since I use it for whitetails. I usually shoot them around 2550-2600,and they are very effective. Once chrono'd that bullet at over 2700fps from the 20" barrel,promptly dissasembled the rest of the rounds. Didn't show obvious pressure signs, but that just didn't seem right.