This happened some time back and it's sickening to see this happen.

Another arrogant biologist who thinks he knows more than anybody else from his text book training. These are the same clueless types who bring us the woof.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...ona-man-guilty-jaguar-macho-b-death.html

This particular quote is really confusing. If the dude tried to "intentionally capture a jaguar", how does his confession support Arizona's claim that "agency personnel did not set out with intention to capture a jaguar"? I guess "agency personel" was his team, not McCain.

Maybe I just have drank too much to understand. That is a very real possibility.

It comes down to poor judgment by the biologist. The jaguar did not need to be euthanized. It should still be living today.

In my experience with biologists, some are really knowledgeable, and others I wonder if they got their degree from some fake university on the internet.

I understand what you are saying, and the point of your post. I just didn't understand that quote. It would be nice to know why he euthanized it, and why his team let it happen.

Maybe they didn't know?

Did McCain have authorization if he thought it was best for the cat? Apparently it was 100 years old in people years. More info is needed before conclusions can be drawn. It does sound like McCain was in the wrong on the surface though.

Yeah, that pretty much says it.

With all the ifs in his lawyers explanation I can't help but think IF he had left the durn cat alone it would probably have been alive.

BCR

I don't understand why you decided that Emil McCain is "arrogant". I have known Emil for almost ten years and can guarantee that if you spent any time with him, you would realize that he is anything but arrogant. He certainly made some errors in judgement in his eagerness to get a tracking collar on a jaguar in the U.S., but he was not incompetent.

As a new graduate student, he was given a box of immobilizing drugs, some snares and a few radio collars and was sent to northern Mexico to study jaguars. He received no useful instructions from his thesis advisor, but with the help of a local trapper, learned to snare, immobilize and radio collar jaguars.

After completing his M.S., he came to Arizona to help Jack Childs organize and implement the Northern Jaguar Detection Project, taking on most of the grunt work in the field for a pitiful salary. He was working as a volunteer with AZ DGF's team when Macho B was snared.

The errors in judgement were two. First, he should not have worked with two other volunteers to obtain scats of female jaguars in heat and include them in the scent stations being used to snare mountain lions. Second, protocols that were developed to deal with an accidental capture required a capture team which included a wildlife veterinarian to be present when the animal was immobilized and collared. A veterinarian was not available on the day the jaguar was captured, so the animal should have been released without being immobilized and collared.

Emil had nothing to do with the decision to euthanize the animal once it was recaptured--that decision was made by veterinarians at the Phoenix Zoo. Even that decision was controversial as a veterinarian at the University of Arizona (who had not been a part of the necropsy team) alleged that the necropsy results did not support a diagnosis of kidney failure.

Emil's attorney made an important point that everyone conveniently ignored in their "hindsight is always 100 percent" commentary. An 18 year-old jaguar that weighed less than 120 lbs. was not a healthy animal. Any adult male that weighs much less than 200 lbs. is nutritionally stressed and/or suffering from illness. The team that captured the animal had no way of knowing its age. That was determined during the necropsy investigations.

Wildlife biologists are human and they make mistakes, just like people in every profession, even doctors and lawyers. They are underpaid and could make much more money in just about any other profession with the same amount of education that is required to get a wildlife job. They do it because they think that what they do is important.

I have been a working biologist, I have conducted and supervised wildlife research, and have managed large ranches in three states for owners who value wildlife and wildlife habitat. In all those capacities I have worked with state, federal and private consulting wildlife biologists who were dedicated and capable.

I have no respect for someone who reads a newspaper account and decides that a wildlife biologist is "arrogant" or incompetent.

Here is a timeline of the events associated with the capture, collaring, recapture and euthanization of the jaguar taken from the Arizona Game and Fish Department web site:

Timeline of Macho B Events

Feb. 18, 2009 � On National Forest lands southwest of Tucson, a jaguar is inadvertently captured during the course of a black bear and mountain lion study. Biologists take the opportunity to fit the animal with a lightweight tracking collar to learn more about the species before releasing it at the capture site.

Feb. 19, 2009 � Through analysis of the jaguar�s spots, it is determined that the animal is Macho B, a male cat that had been photographed by trail cameras periodically over the past 13 years. Macho B was believed to be the oldest known jaguar in the wild at 15-16 years old.

Feb. 24, 2009 � Initial data from the tracking collar shows that the jaguar moved more than three miles from the capture site and was foraging and moving well throughout the habitat.

February 28, 2009 � Updated tracking data indicates a change in the jaguar�s movement, so at midday a field team comprised of biologists deploys to visually assess the animal in the field and to try to locate any kills it might have made (javelina are common in that area). Tracking-collar data are extremely limited because the area is so rugged that the tracking collar signal cannot reach the satellite network. The Team is unable to locate the jaguar or a kill.

March 1, 2009 � Tracking-collar information is still limited due to signal blockage. But, the field team, which now includes a veterinarian, gets a visual on Macho B. The cat�s condition seems to be deteriorating, so the team hikes out far enough for their satellite phone to work. They talk with Arizona Game and Fish Department contacts in Phoenix, who coordinate planning efforts for re-capture the next day and on-site veterinary assessment of the cat�s condition.

March 2, 2009 � Through assistance from tracking hounds, the field team locates Macho B, anesthetizes him with a dart, diagnoses probable renal failure, and transports him to The Phoenix Zoo for further veterinary assessment.

Within 3.5 hours of recapture, expert veterinarians at The Phoenix Zoo conduct physical exams and blood tests that reveal Macho B is suffering from severe and unrecoverable kidney failure.

Acting on recommendations from the veterinarians, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Arizona Game and Fish Department authorize that the animal be euthanized and that a necropsy be conducted to determine as much as possible about what might have contributed to the terminal kidney failure.

Mudhen,

thank you very much for the first hand info, your level approach and setting things into perspective.

Knowing the people usually does that.

So here, from the top of my head - 24 hour campfire posters with academic wildlife background:

Mudhen
458 Win.
NathanL
Houndgirl
cmg

I am sure there are more and no slight intended.
Perhaps this little list helps the perception of posters here over a certain them/us - feeling.

Didn't know you had a wildlife background also. Might throw alpinecrick and myself into the list there. Not sure who else off hand. I'm not sure of 1Minute's wildlife background, but he seems to have some sort of connection to academic research.
And I don't have any personal knowledge of this jaguar case. Knew a grad student that got mauled by one that he trapped in Mexico. Does that count?
If you want to read some really ignorant stuff, read the comments below the article in the link.

Mudhen,

Tell us this, was the Jaguar emmaciated when he was first captured on Feb 18th?

According to your own timeline, either the cat was considered healthy enough to be collared when captured, then lost an amazing amount of weight in approx. 12 days...(euthanized March 2nd)

or

He had serious health problems at the time he was captured and, was illegally collared in spite of this..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 2nd is much more plausible, therefore, he was charged.

With no authorization to conduct research on a protected species, the cat should have been released.

It's quite possible the unauthorized actions of your friend and his colleages contributed to the jaguar's death.

Arrogant doesn't seem to be too far off, maybe foolish would be a better word. It appears this Biologist saw an opportunity to make a name for himself.

In his mind, this opportunity obviously outweighed the fact that it was illegal and the fact he was using an older animal that was in poor condition.

Mudhen,

Thanks for some unknown background info.

Misjudgment or not, it seems like this guy was given the short end. He would have probably been given a letter of recommendation if the cat had not apparently already been sick or weak from what just may be old age. Sounds like it may not have been around much longer one way or the other. But, what the heck if something out the ordinary happens, someone has to pay and it looks like he took the fall. The relatively minor penalty for the death of an endangered species seems to point in that direction.

I'm willing to guess that most days a vet who was was supposed to be with the team was nowhere to be found.

Then again, jumping to conclusions seem to be a campfire trait and perhaps I'm guilty also.

No misjudgement Battue. Illegal. Look at my post. Do you think the phuggin cat was healthy when it was collared? I don't think any reasonable person could assume that.

To believe it was, is to believe it managed to lose 80 or so pounds in 12 days. That's pretty unlikely. Even if his weight was reduced to 150 lbs. because of age, do you think it possible he lost over 30 lbs in 12 days?

I think this cat's condition was probably known and it was used anyway.

That is all in the unkown background info posted by Mudhen you appreciate so much, but fail to understand..

Connect the dots people. Egos' [bleep] alot of stuff up.

Mudhen, respect me or not, I'm happy to see you clear the record of a perception given. I stand corrected.

I called him arrogant because of what I read. Because he was the supposedly decision maker in all of this. Because many, not all, game biologist come across as
"hey I've got a degree and I know it all".

Bottom line though, this whole thing is an incompetent fubar by "educated" people.

None of us know the health of the cat when it was collared. I do know that when the kidneys fail you can lose weight at an alarming rate. Seen it happen. The bones even are sucked dry and become hollow tubes rather quickly.

Misdemeanor federal charge and 5 years probation for the death of an endangered species. Read between the phuggen lines.

those vets, they're a pretty flakey lot....


Renal failure is the most common cause of (not traumatic) death in most cat species that are lucky enough become old.

I know I read somewhere what drugs were used, but the reality is that (without IV fluids) any anesthetic is going to drop renal blood flow 15-20%. With healthy kidneys and a short anesthetic period, no biggie. In an old cat, it is often just enough to tip them over the edge.

This cat was likely in or near renal failure at the time of capture and would have likely died in 6 months even without capture. IMO, the anesthetic just sped things up.

Poor judgment? yes. Killed an otherwise healthy cat? no.

That's the problem with you. You read between the phuggin lines instead of what's in front of your face on the page.

I think the sentence was just.

Just sayin...

Utahlefty,

Not meant to be a judgment on vets or their dedication, although I see how a vet could take it that way. What I meant to imply is that the life of a government vet is busy enough without having the luxury of being outdoors on a daily basis with a research team. Didn't convey it all that well.

JM:

After 66years, I have a fairly good handle on my problems, but thanks for the additional insight.

I'm in....USDA APHIS Wildlife Services.(WS Specialist)

Just yankin' your chain. (grin)

I've been the "CYA vet" on numerous elk, moose, and sheep captures over the years.

I've not seen a "govt vet" at these digs. Around here, it's mostly pro-bono volunteerism of a private vet that's willing to get some exercise. The indian reservations tend to have their own vet on site when they're receiving the captures but I suspect he's not full time employed either.

John Moses:

Here is a picture of Macho B after he was released. You tell me what you think.



There are two possibilities (at least):

He could have been in the early stages of kidney failure when he was captured and immobilized. If so, the symptoms that might have been detected by a veterinarian, especially if the vet had drawn a blood sample as part of his routine examination.

Alternatively the kidney failure could have been induced by the stress of capture and immobilization of an aging critter.

Unfortunately, we'll never know, which is actually fortunate for you, because you can continue to speculate endlessly about how it could have been done better.

Forgot to add: Arizona Game & Fish had a permit from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that allowed them to immobilize and collar a jaguar that was trapped incidental to their mountain lion and bear research. That was why protocols were in place and why they had a GPS collar activated and ready to go. Based on the account of the volunteer who placed the scat, the AZ DGF team probably did not know at the time that luring the jaguar to the scent station was not incidental.

I know mtmiller has academic and professional experience in wildlife.

I won't throw myself into the same pot, but my education and background are very related to wildlife habitat and management.

How about following the law and not illegally baiting, trapping and collaring and endangered species to begin with? To add insult to injury, it was done with no veterinarian present to assess the animals condition.

Looks to me like the man was guilty of disregarding game laws and his own department's protocol. Did it lead to the animals death? who knows, but when you strike out on your own and end up with a dead Jaguar...well it ain't gonna be good for you.

No speculation there Mudhen, Just facts.

That is one healthy looking cat.

exbiologist (duuh, what was I thinking )
alpinecrick
scenarshooter
jpb (boy, I am in for it now - having forgotten him itfp)

The list is growing longer.

Best wishes to all.

Any "wild" animal that has a name wasn't that wild to begin with, endangered or not.

No way to determine if it was healthy or not from a pic.

The language in your original post seems to indicate that you have more of a problem with Biologists in general, than with this specific incident.

I appreciate & value them and the work they do, as they have done wonderful things with our whitetail herd here in Mississippi.

My objection is to the incident, not Biologists as a group, which I like.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Su35;
Had a dog with kidney failure. When we put her down she weighed next to nothing. When you picked her up it shocked you how little was there. Like having a Model 70 one minute and then being handed a Nula. She walked into the vets office and proceeded to greet all.
The other problems where hidden to the untrained eye or those who were not around her on a daily basis. We can't go by a picture.

JM, battue,

right you are.

But SU35 simply talked about a healthy looking cat.

There I agree - the jaguar in the picture is healthy looking to me. I know nothing about jaguars, I admit.

Correct.

I think the thread heading sums up at least, one way or another, what seemed to be this particular cats immediate future. At least the "worlds oldest Jaguar" part. Old people or old cats there is a time.

"Arrogant biologist" is open for debate.

"Arrogant Biologist"

I will admit was a wrong choice of words. More knee-jerk than anything.


My apologies.

I'd love to see a wild Jag. Muscular, powerful animals.

At a local big cat sanctuary there is an Amur Leopard that is 18 - not identical species, and he has a very safe comfortable life at the sanctuary, but he is quite healthy and active - and can still jump 8-10 feet to a platform. Maybe Macho B would have lived another few years, maybe not. Javelina would seem to be pretty easy prey for them, if not livestock or deer.

Interesting, and nice to see that everyone here regrets the cat's death.

SU35,

I am sorry that I came on so strong and probably shouldn't have added the line about respect. Like most other biologists, I spent a lot of time and money learning about wildlife--how to manage their habitats and how to manage their populations. Until I became an administrator, I basically was paid far less than other professionals who had spent as many years in formal education as I had. I knew it was going to be that way going in and have no regrets.

I also learned that you can never quit learning. I learned that the first thing that you should do when going to work in a new area is to acquire as much local knowledge as you can from the folks that live there. I learned to respect the experience and knowledge that hunters and fishermen have with respect to the lands and waters on which they pursue their quarry. I learned that a farmer or rancher is always going to know more about the piece of ground that they own and/or manage than I ever will. I also learned to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, when the talk gets a little over the top.

One of the first things I learned was that the guys in the coffee shops and bars know always know more than a "dumb ol' deer biologist" (which is how I took to introducing myself to people that I would meet when I was out working).

Another thing that I learned the hard way was that writers, especially those that write for newspapers and other venues with broad readerships and tight deadlines, can garble information worse than anyone else that you will meet outside of a nut house. Many times I have spent most of a day with a writer in the field, describing a project and answering questions. Reading the results in the next day's paper or Sunday's sports section usually made me wish that they hadn't spelled my name right, if they even mentioned it at all. This is why I try not to judge anyone too harshly based on news stories, especially those that are written with second- and third-hand information derived from earlier news stories.

I never said the Emil should not have to suffer the consequences of his errors in judgement. I am not sure if he was even present when the cat was collared. Everyone involved was basically under gag order while the investigation was ongoing. Either way, Emil gave the go ahead to his volunteer intern to place the scat on the scent station and he has taken the rap. It will probably cost him his chosen career--at least in this country.

mudhen,

I had no idea you were a biologist.

I do think that it is very cool that you are! Really!

This say's a lot about you, a whole lot.



Thank you for your post(s)on this subject, I am a bit more educated or have a better understanding now.

btw, do you know Jim Higgs?

I do not know Jim. I'm kinda semi-retired these days and don't attend professional meetings like I used to do. I probably should change my handle to exbiologist, but I see that it's taken...

edited

Your omission has been noted... <cue ominous music>

Going to cost you an extra wild boar or two for that...

John

... thats letting me off cheap. Here I was fearing for my 18 years old Taliskers.

Boy, do we have pigs around this year. A hunter saw a band of 50 give or take yesterday and managed to be so overawed that they passed unscathed.

As good a year as any to come down here (Hint )

Good way to end a thread!

Bet Mr Glenn is pissed!!!

If he is, he hasn't expressed that to me. He, his wife and daughter are just feeling sad for Emil.

I just edited this. It would be more accurate to say that they are sad about the whole situation, for a variety of reasons that would require another long post to explore.

The way that this unfolded not only removed the best chance we had to learn about the movements of this particular animal, but probably erased any chance that we will be able to gather definitive information about where and how often jaguars wander into the U.S. in the future. Instead, the legal actions brought by NGOs such as the Center for Biodiversity, WildEarth Guardians, etc., will by default delegate the responsibility to judges and the courts to decide what constitutes critical habitat for jaguars, rather than letting the animals themselves tell us.

Unfortunately, too much of management of wildlife and public lands is being done in the courts, at least IMO...

did you ever hear about the black bear that was killed in Duval county TX i think it was around 2001. you never know whats out there. i saw a jaguarundi 4 yrs ago on the ranch we use to own near Freer TX

So a biologist euthanized a rare healthy animal in the wild. That makes lots of sense. Maybe it's easier to study a dead animals habits that way.

Boy, oh boy-- I hesitate to put my foot into it, but...

What's the big deal, at all?

It's a little too bad that there's one less of a rare neato animal (don't you wolf-lovers chime in here). But they're birthing and dying every year; this one came to our attention only because folks 'knew' it. How many other jaguars died during that same period?

5 years of probation for petting a wildcat? A warning sounds better to me.
Wantonly killing rare animals would be another matter (don't you wolf-haters chime in here.)

And must one be a triple PhD on the payroll of the CIA and the College of Cardinals, with retinue, to do field study? Better tell the Museum of Natural History to turn down that civilian scientist Teddy R. And don't let Edison play with potatoes in his garage, they're too dangerous. (It's for the children, you know.) Can't go to the moon- a few astronauts exploded; can't build a dam- someone fell; gotta outlaw bats- a high school pitcher got his noggin cracked; can't relocate a herd of bighorns- an ewe died of fright during netting. Until the occasional bad-thing-that-happens is made impossible, let's either allow no action or at least make every action cost a billion dollars in redundant failsafe procedures and insurances.


Or maybe the Dept. could tell their biologists to be more careful out there, and maybe the rest of us can stop putting everything under a microscope and making a lot of hoopla over one animal's death.


Oh, boy. I've did it now.

mccain was a contractor, and not employed by the state...

when macho b was originally captured he was sedated and fitted with a tracking collar... he was released, but when tracked, it was noticed that his behavior was erratic and unexpected... he was recaptured and found to be in kidney failure probably caused by a combination of his age and the sedative drugs he was given at his original capture...

he was dying, and was euthanized... highly unlikely that he would be alive today if re-released...
unlikely that he would be alive today even if he had never been captured and sedated....
he was an old cat....

the participants in his capture exceeded the bounds of their charter, which was for other species...
if macho b's capture had been truly incidental the incident would have been written off as unfortunate...
the on purpose and unwise placement of jaguar feces at capture sites is what caused controversy...

The problem for me is the government system and how it works. The guy made a mistake at work-the in heat scat post-and instead of giving what appears to be a dedicated man a chance to learn from his errors, what does the government do? It chitcans and criminalizes him.

Now, drunks kill a person with a car and what do we do? Send them to school and eventually put them back on the road. Physicians make errors-while in residency or in the real world-and they get a chance to learn from their mistakes. Pharmacists do the same and are given the same chance. Oil companies, Government Nuclear facilities, auto manufacturers all of which are essentially people all make mistakes. None are immune to error. Name your field, mistakes happen and in most cases as long as they don't occur repeatedly the individual in given a pass to learn and grow. But no, the same thing happens with a Jaguar, that apparently wasn't going to be around much longer anyway and the guy has to walk the plank. The system and the black/white individuals who think the decision was correct need to look in the mirror.

One comes on here and tells their tale of woe on muffing a shot on a game animal, and fail to recover after making a dedicated effort, and they will get the "you did your best, chit happens, learn from it and move on" line. Admittedly there are more deer, elk, etc than Jaguars, but the fact is it appears this guy just made a mistake.

Get enough Jaguars and they would become the next Wolf, Mountain Lion, Coyote or whatever bitching thread to be bashed around.

Then again I know I'm not perfect, so what do I know.

Enough said.

I do sound like mistakes were made. Mudhen you said "...A veterinarian was not available on the day the jaguar was captured, so the animal should have been released without being immobilized and collared...."

Pardon my ignorance but just how in hell does a fellow do that? I am assuming you can't just sort of scratch it between the ears, say nice kitty and take the rope off. Seems to me like you'd have to have somebody flat ass the thing to get the rope off and then run like hell.

Pretty stressful for the cat to say nothing of who ever was fooling with it.

Not being a smart ass but seriously, HOW do you do that? Turn it loose without wireing it up that is.

BCR

Verrrrrrry carefully.....

Ingwe

and have many tooth pics on hand. Just in case...

Yep. The Jaguar may need one....


Ingwe

There was another confirmed bear kill in Llano county in the late 90's! In the vicinity of the old "Click Store". I remember the stories I used to hear from relatives in south Texas on Jags and other cats. And my dad had a German police dog that got into it with an Ocelot on the old family place in Atascosa county in the late 40's.

There is a really cool pic from I think 1914, of a rancher and a jaguar he had shot in Mills county (Goldwaithe Tx), a bit west of Waco! Pic was taken in front of the old jail that is still there on the edge of the US 183 right of way on the courthouse square.

Kaywoodie

This statement

In January I was sitting in a camp waiting for the weather to break during a sponsored youth javalina hunt camp. The weather was snowy, windy and cold even down at 4000 ft, we didn't have any youth show up, so it was a bull session for all the guides and us helpers.

The Jag came into the conversation and one of the local Taxi guys that skinned the jag was sitting there and said this.

It had a large infection pocket under the skin, the size of a grapefruit he said, so give or take, it was still big. The surrounding area was also infected by the looks of it. He said he couldn't tell if it was recent but he didn't feel it was, though he couldn't say it didn't happen during the capture.

Seems it could have been at the capture site for the easy food as much as the scat.

There's a rumor for you, I don't disbelieve him, he didn't say it bragging or elaborate beyond his experience.

Kent

Oregon State grad, '72, Fish and Wildlife Science, with Honors. Worked only 2 years in the field afterwards and then circumstances took me elsewhere in location and career(s).

Your friendship or personal respect for Emil as a biologist notwithstanding, your whole argument is moot. There was NOTHING inadvertent about this capture. That was his biggest mistake- targeting a Federally protected mammal when having been previously denied a permit to capture such.

Macho B was doomed to die, no doubt but Emil's actions set back wildlife biology a decade or more in public opinion and for that alone, he should be thrown out of the profession. He used extremely poor judgement and then lied about it to cover his mistake. Bad, bad decision.

We got rid of them jaguars for a reason!
SSS

Yup. More of us lurking than you might think.

"Your friendship or personal respect for Emil as a biologist notwithstanding, your whole argument is moot. There was NOTHING inadvertent about this capture. That was his biggest mistake- targeting a Federally protected mammal when having been previously denied a permit to capture such."

I never said that the capture was inadvertent or accidental. I am not aware that Emil ever applied for permit, much less ever having been denied one. The permit was issued to AZ DGF.

I don't know that he set anything back ten years or twenty years or decades or eons. I was simply trying to put things in perspective. It's easy to read a newspaper column or watch a 30-second report on the evening news and make a judgement about a person's character--perhaps easier if he or she was an axe murderer or a mass murderer.

Obviously, the judicial system agreed with you and I have no quarrel with that, however it could be that it did not assess a sentence that you believe was sufficiently harsh. But as they say, "Opinions are alike a*sholes: everyone has one". You have expressed yours and I respect yours and your right to express it. I have expressed mine in previous posts on this subject and can find nothing that I think that I need to retract

I have a couple of close friends who are biologists here in AZ and have followed this fairly closely. I blame the AZ game and Fish employee just as much as him. You spelled out a timeline of what you presented, ostensibly, as facts. One item said that they inadvertently captured the jaguar.

I don't think they could have imagined the fall-out from their actions when this all started but they should have known when they were denied a permit (which they were) to capture the jaguar to begin with.

With the lead poisoning studies and such going on right now, biology is a real hot potato in Arizona. This hurt them more that you can ever measure. I just read a study done by DJ Case & Associates to see how this stuff is perceived in AZ. The Sportsmen who participated in the Tucson region (where the Macho B stuff happened) were especially jaded. In fact, many comments were made about this in the report prepared for AZ G&F. I spoke with another biologist by phone and they were very worried about the ramifications that this holds.

There was no doubt in my mind that this mess was going to result in criminal indictments. I don't have an opinion about the sentence he got. Was it fair?? I don't know. Some wanted him lynched!

There are more jaguars running around than people think. Lion hunters catch them occasionally. Not just Warner Glenn. A friend of mine caught two of them in an 18 month period about 5 years ago. He never said a word- just let them go. I don't think he is alone in this. They don't want the scrutiny that this brings. Now the whole thing is under a microscope. This could potentially impact lion hunting in Arizona because people are worried about the poor jaguars.

I hate to see professionals screwing this stuff up and I can't help but think that Mr. McCain had a personal agenda when he set out to do this and maybe land a big study grant or something.

Arrogant? I dunno, maybe not the best adjective to use. Nearsighted and foolish, no doubt.

I think AZ G&F is sugar coating it to state that none of their employees knowingly participated in this. I think that they did.

Here is a quote from the prosecutor that I completely agree with (for a change)

�One of the state officials employed to protect our endangered wildlife instead endangered this same wildlife. The community was rightfully outraged. Public trust had been broken,� said United States Attorney Dennis K. Burke. �This office takes its responsibility to enforce federal species laws seriously and will robustly enforce these protections.�

Most of the public, as you suggested, got only sound bites or a small piece of the big picture and ran with it. They are outraged- mostly that their precious jaguar is dead. I am mad because a professional biologist, working with a State Government Agency, entrusted to protect and study our wildlife resources, apparently took unilateral action which ultimately resulted in a public relations nightmare for the State and biologist in general and then lied to cover it up. That is way beyond just "bad judgment" It was most certainly criminal.

I wonder why the kidney failure of the jag? Was it the snare? The tranquilizer? Are jags less robust than cougars?

In the 1980's, when we were working on a cougar study on the west Slope, Arizona sent up some young gun biologists to see first-hand how we were capturing cougars with hounds. They didn't approve of the use of hounds. They ended up catching more cougars with snares, but they had a higher injury and mortality rate then we did with hounds.




The only thing worse than an arrogant biologist is some arrogant guy who has killed a few head of big game and now thinks he knows more than the arrogant biologists.......



Casey

I am an arrogant wildlife biologist, damn proud of it too. So much so, I have the college degree and almost two pages out of four on my resume to prove it (references included). I also have been an educator, wildland fire supervisor, farm boy and lab rat to get through college.

BFD! Anyone with a lick of common sense can see all the major flaws in what happened to Macho B. I will draw the line in the sand with JM and stand on his side. What the permit covered, did not cover the end result. Henseforth...leave the cat alone. Repeat after me...leave the cat alone. If he is dying of renal failure due to old age, big deal, let him die. Lots of things die in this world because of one thing or another. It's just life.

Yet, if you�re setting a trap under the guise of catching everything but a jaguar, yet bait the trap with jaguar poop, what would common sense dictate? Then if that jaguar dies in your custody, for any reason at all and it comes out that you baited it in without your federal endangered species permit allowing you to...then you might as well just [bleep] your wildlife career Good Bye.

Personally, this biologist screwed up big time and got cracked for it. The permit did not cover what happened. Yet, I do know the structure of these state game and fish departments and it is bureaucracy to the max. And really those higher up chicken manures couldn�t admit that part of this was their fault so this person became there fall guy.

The timeline that I posted was taken verbatim from the Arizona Game and Fish website (as I noted in my post). It was their post that described the capture as "inadvertent", and reflected their understanding of what had happened at the time.

I posted the timeline because it corrected a number of misapprehensions in other people's posts, primarily allegations that Emil made the decision to euthanize the animal and did so himself.

Jaguars, like mountain lions, are lone hunters, have large territories, and kill very few animals when compared to pack hunters (read wolves). Their impact on game is minimal. Second, they are rather easy to control with hounds.

John G, thank you for beating back the heinous people of self imposed infinate knowledge while they were taking a crap, drinking a cup of java and playing sudko;~)

Sorry John, not following you. Predators kill and eat what they need to survive. If they couldn't get enough, they'd die, pack animal or not. Predators, including lions, can have a large impact on game, depending on your definition of "impact" and "minimal." The ease of lion control depends mostly on regulations and management levels, same as wolves and most other predators.

I simply took the opportunity to point out that some of the "jaguar-lovers" here would just as soon gut-shoot a wolf. Take that fact any way you like.

I see that you consider yourself far superior.

Nope, Just a mere mortal. Especially when my wife gets irritated at me!

The only thing even worse that that is some guy with a keyboard expert that has been "killing" critters for years and yet hasn't left his keyboard alone long enough to refill his coffee cup, but he stills know more about everything than everyone.

Anyone know of any strong evidence of even one female jaguar in the US? So far as I can tell, these are like all the Iowa/Illinois, etc. mt lions - lone males.

Brent

There have been no recent records of female jaguars in the U.S. The preservationists are salivating heavily at the thought of one showing up, especially if she is pregnant. So far, all of those documented in the last fourteen years (total=four) have all been males.

I'd love to see a population of jags here too. But I don't think that has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

There were jags first being photoed in AZ back in 1991 or so, but so far as I could recall, they were all male if gender was known.

Thanks,
Brent

The first recent jaguar was photographed in the Peloncillo Mountains on the Arizona/New Mexico line by Warner Glenn late in the winter of 1996. About six months later, Jack Childs and Matt Colvin obtained video of one that their hounds treed over in the Baboquiviri Mountains in Arizona. After trip cameras were put out in areas presumed to be travel routes for jaguars, another individual was identified in Arizona several years later. In March, 2006, almost exactly ten years after the first one, Warner Glenn photographed another large male in the Sierra San Luis in New Mexico, a few miles north of the border with Mexico.

There was one roaming around when I lived in AZ in 90-92. Over by the Stronghold, if I recall correctly. And there was one killed "legally" but a local rancher before that as I recall as well.
Brent

Well then I challenge you to provide refuting evidence against anything I have posted, like a professional biologist would do, and without the insults. Can ya do it? Can ya?

Mudhen! You old American Coot!

You�re from the same general local, what do you think Warner Glenn would have to say to Elin McCain?

Anyone who read an outdoor life rag when they were 8 years old knew about Warner Glenn, his hounds and his absolute famous photographs. That entanglement of man verse critter even made it into the Smithsonian, plus SWAN, ASM, & TWS.

I have never met Warner Glenn, maybe you have. But what do you think his exact words about this Macho B situation would be?

Very doubtful he would agree with your McCain position. If memory serves correct, Mr. Glenn after his first fateful day, became an ardent supporter, protector and above all hard core rancher conservationist in the protection of Pantera ocna .

"There was one roaming around when I lived in AZ in 90-92. Over by the Stronghold, if I recall correctly. And there was one killed "legally" but a local rancher before that as I recall as well."

Don't know about the one over near Stronghold--just know the ones that have been confirmed.

The rancher you mentioned killed his illegally in 1986. He didn't know at the time that it was illegal. At that time, the jaguar was not listed as endangered in the U.S. since the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had regarded them as having been extirpated. (They were listed in the late 1990s.) He did take the animal in violation of Arizona statutes, but was not prosecuted for lack of evidence. In the mid-1990s, he was persuaded by an undercover agent for USFWS to bring the pelt to Silver City, New Mexico, to sell it to him and was arrested and prosecuted for a violation of the Lacey Act.

Was the poached jag a male? I have no recollection one way or the other.

The Stronghold cat may have actually been the Glenn cat but I can't say.

Bottom line is that there are no females it appears so there is no population or even a hope for a population. Too bad.

Brent

LNF150, I have known Warner Glenn almost for almost 20 years. I regard him as a good friend and see him and work with him and his family regularly. I have been fortunate enough to have participated in a number of lion hunts with him and his daughter Kelly. I have talked with them about this and posted earlier in this thread on that subject, so I will not repeat myself here.

You are correct that Warner has become a champion of jaguar protection and sensible management. Half of the proceeds of his book, "Eyes of Fire" (an account of his first encounter with the jaguar in the Peloncillos), goes into a Jaguar Protection Fund. He and Wendy established this fund in conjunction with the Malpai Borderlands Group to reimburse ranchers in the U.S. who have lost livestock to jaguars, hoping to deter illegal killing. There have been a few confirmed kills over the years and the fund has paid market value (determined by a panel of cooperating ranchers) for the animals that were lost.

Warner also knows that the only way that we will know for sure where these animals come from and where they go when they are here is to obtain data from animals fitted with tracking collars. He was an active participant as a stakeholder in the Jaguar Conservation Team (JAGCT) from the beginning. He participated in discussions when we developed the protocols for collaring a jaguar if one was bayed or trapped incidental to other activities. Like all of us, he regrets the loss of Macho B and was disappointed to learn that the snaring was not incidental.

Yep and here we go Mr. Turn in Poacher 800 # DPole, DPole.

You do have a slight disadvantage in living wherever you do, in not being apart of an ecosystem that did have jaguars and desert mountain sheep roaming the mountain slopes of the southwest at one time.

Yet, I think the majority of hunters and nonhunters alike see a photograph of a jaguar in the wild, in the United States of America along the southern border, living in an area populated by mexican drug runners armed with AK-47's (keep in mind this is all on American soil). Everyone could give a hell less if it ate a deer or two or thousand (probably just eats pigs and rabbits)...any wild free roaming jaguar who crosses the border from Mexico is a survivor, needs to show no ID and is automatically granted wildlife citizenship.

Dpole, my point being, jaguars are so extremely rare along the borderlands. I would pay more $$$ just to see a wild one lurking about our southwestern terrain, then I would to pay to grope the hope diamond or Pam Anderson's fake...err...swimsuit on baywatch.

That is just my call.






























and the last thing they think about is "Holy Hell, Our Deer Population Just Crashed!!! Watching a bobcat chasing rabbit

Sorry, Mudhen, I am going to through out the BS card.



Did anyone think to run a dna eletrophoresis gel? On just hair samples or salvia sequences? If you caught the cat once, run the dna! Dry out the gel, photo copy or scan it and sent it to the universities in mexico that specialize in wildlife studies. Because they have been doing the same thing for the past 20 years with wild jaguars.

Mudhen if folks want to know where these critters come from, stick out your right arm at a 45 degree angle/index finger pointed due south and say "From There". Outside of that explaination, macho b, didn't land here from pluto land. His dna is matched up somewheere.

The dots will come together

Yet what do I know, I'm just a pasty white viking dude

lnf150, I have to call the BS card on you.

DNA is useful stuff, but it won't show you anything close to the resolution that the Mudhen or Warner wants to know.

BTW, who in Mexico has been working on jaguar DNA for 20 yrs? Just curious.

As a pasty white viking dude to another, I'm sorta curious about what you know about Mexican jags....

My apologies then. I didn't realize that you copy and pasted it from G&F. It stands to reason that they are going to assert that it was inadvertent when baiting the traps with jaguar urine and scat is NOT the preferred method to catch lions!!

This isn't over yet- Another federal indictment handed down. This person may be the Game& Fish employee- it doesn't say. They have done a great job of protecting him up to this point.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/17/20100517arizona-jaguar-death-charges.html

According to her "confession" to the Arizona Daily Star, she was the one that actually placed the scat on the scent station. She was a volunteer working with the NJDP.

Jaguar 101: it's wordy (Copied, part of a formal comment submitted to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in response to their request for comments on declaring Critical Habitat for the jaguar in the United States).

Northern Jaguar Population status

Just a little over 100 miles south of the U.S./Mexico border is the northern-most reproducing jaguar population. This population occurs in a remote, mountainous region of approximately 5,000 square miles which extends from near the small town of Nacori Chico, Sonora, southward through the foothills of the Sierra Madre to near Yecora, Sonora, and is approximately defined on the west by the alignment of the Rio Bavispe - RioYaqui - Rio Sahuaripa river system, and on the east by the Sonora/Chihuahua state line. This is a region that is roughly comparable in size to all of southeast Arizona south of I-10 and east of I-19, but it has no paved roads, no cities, and no intensive commerce aside from scattered ranches. Unlike southeast AZ and southwest NM, this region has the benefit of abundant water along a number of rivers and streams where there is little if any human habitation. The major rivers are the Rio Bavispe, Rio Aros, Rio Bacadehuachi, Rio Papigochic, Rio Sahuaripa and Rio Yaqui, with numerous smaller springs and streams. The region also supports an abundant prey base for jaguars in the form of javelina, coatimundi, white-tail deer and mule deer. This is also an area where the human population has declined over the last few decades, in striking contrast to southern AZ, as people have moved from ranches to cities in search of jobs. If we want to truly protect the northern jaguars, this is the place to do it.

The main threat to this jaguar population is hunting related to jaguar predation on livestock. Rosas-Rosas, et al. (2010) reported that during the five year period from 1999 to 2004 at least eleven jaguars were killed in the Nacori Chico area, just over 100 miles south of the border. Killing jaguars is illegal there, so obviously not all kills are reported, but bounties are still offered on some ranches. The fact that a jaguar population persists nearby in the face of this kind of pressure gives some indication of the quality of jaguar �habitat� in the U.S. Jaguars can (and occasionally do based on rare U.S. sitings) walk through the uninterrupted wild habitat from Nacori Chico to the U.S. border in a few days. If habitat here looked good to them, they would stay. But they don�t. There are simply too many people, not enough water, and not enough prey to support jaguars in the U.S.

Another indication of the status of the northern jaguar population and habitat is a comparison of population densities with other jaguar populations across their range. A recent population estimate by the Northern Jaguar Project (2009) on their jaguar preserve east of Sahuaripa, Sonora, indicate a density of approximately one per 100 square-km. Density estimates for jaguars in other locations throughout Central and South America typically range from around 3 to 10 per 100 km-sq. These places include: the Pantanal, Brazil � 10.3/km-sq (Soisalo & Cavalcanti 2006); Corcovado, Costa Rica � 7/100 km-sq (Salom-Perez et al. 2007); three locations in Belize � 6.8, 8.8 and 11.3/100 km-sq (WCS 2004); Calakmul and Maya Bosphere Reserve, Mexico � 3.5 and 4/100 km-sq (Aranda 1990); and the Chaco and Amazon, Bolivia � 2.4 and 8.8/100 km-sq (Silver, et al. 2004); and the Caatinga, Brazil � 2.7/100 km-sq (Silveira et al. 2009).

The population density of the northern population in Sonora is among the lowest of jaguar populations studied anywhere, suggesting that habitat there is somewhat lower quality than elsewhere in their range, although it is still much better than anything in the U.S. One of the few places where jaguars have been documented with a population density this low, 1/100 km-sq, is the Atlantic Forest region of Brazil where habitat has been extensively modified (Pitman and Mazzoli 2008). The researchers there have observed local extinction and are pessimistic about survival of jaguar there. A study of jaguars in Belize concluded that to assure long-term survival, a jaguar population needed approximately 650 individuals (Eizirik et al. 2002). The Sonoran jaguar population has been estimated at around 200 (C. Lopez 2008).

Based on all of these observations, the idea that there could ever be a reproducing jaguar population in the U.S. is ludicrous. However, the nearest northern jaguar population desperately needs help, and wasting funds on a frivolous action to list critical habitat in the U.S. simply diverts help from where it is really needed. From time to time brown pelicans show up on the sewage ponds in Tucson, about as frequently as jaguars show up in AZ, but no one would seriously consider the sewage ponds critical habitat for pelicans.

OK, that makes sense- she was the one that went to the zoo and got the stuff if I recall correctly.

There obviously aren't a lot of jaguars running around in AZ and Mexico. I don't know where John killed the one he got in trouble for but that family wasn't exactly known for their compliance with government parameters, both in their grazing and hunting ventures. John was without a doubt the most outdoor savvy individual I have every hunting with in my life. He practically lived outdoors. Too bad he got caught up in that sting.

I have talked to two houndsmen, both who work or run cattle ranches at some time, who have treed more than one jaguar. One guy in particular was "fired" by his employer because he did NOT kill the two he treed.

The other one did not have a whole lot to say about it but did not count it as any big deal. He caught one of his on the San Carlos reservation. He also told me that he knew of several houndsmen who had treed jags. He said that they are extremely hard on dogs and has chased at least 10 but did not catch many of them. He said that they would single out a dog and kill him while the others tried to maul them. Behavior was not quite the same as most lions.

A few years ago, my uncle was working on his graduate degree at U of A and was commuting from Safford to Tucson several times a week. He had one run across I-10 in front of his car one night and almost hit it. It had a big effect on him and he related the story to me several times. They are around...

We can beat this all we want but the bottom line is because these guys intentionally trapped a jaguar, they broke the law. The bad thing is that the community didn't like it one bit and this got the attention of the AZ AG office as well as the US attorney's office in the District of AZ. When this happens, their will be scapegoats.

The fact that the jaguar died just made the trapping part no longer something that could be ignored. Like I posted earlier, he likely had no idea that he would wade into a crocodile pit with this one.

Too bad for the volunteer, she probably thought she was protected by following orders, but on the other hand, may have been complicit in the whole conspiracy.

I suspect that there could be some other charges, unless the statute of limitations is up, pending for the others.

A hanging always seemed to draw a big crowd in the old west- this is just the 21st century version of the same...

If I ever see a jaguar in the wild, not sure I would want to tell anyone!

Other than James "Grizzly" Adams' story that was here on the home page for a while, any evidence that jags made it into the Sierra Nevada? Seems like the habitat would have been very supportive of them.

Heck with all the wild boar/ferals now in south Texas and California, they might do pretty well, if they could get to those places.

they use to show up here in south Texas probably still do.a black bear was killed near freer TX about 9-10 yr ago. most figured it came up from Mexico or the big bend area. guy who killed it got in a lot of trouble. he tried to claim self defense but the evidence did not support that

yep...I recall a big bear, 400 lbs or so that was killed by a car on I-10 - that was over 15 years ago, IIRC. The last time I was in Big Bend NP, they had warning signs about, near the Chisos Mtns regarding bears.

Pics of bear road kill from around Alpine, TX I believe. Texas is now part of an early suitability study of reintroduction of Louisiana black bears into East Texas. Every year we get some young males that wander out of Arkansas and Louisiana but no breeding takes place.

I used to work with a ranch in Katarina, TX (South Texas) that had a mounted jaguar on the mantle that was killed around the turn of the century (1900).

I knew you couldn't do it.

Now back to emulating dirtbags: Yep, you jaguar-luvin', high-rise livin', cabbage-headed flatlander ginks are just a bunch of ignorant "dufuses." "Thanks for nothing", you "sons of bitches and daughters of whores."

John G Brent, thank you for beating back the heinous people of self imposed infinate knowledge while they were taking a crap, drinking a cup of java and playing sudko;~)

Comes around, goes around. Think I'll go fishing now....brookies have been HOT!

Exactly.


Not to mention those feral hogs can serve to support cougars repopulating some of those southern states.




Casey

Are hogs good prey for lions? Bears were captured here and transported south in an effort to control hogs. It didn't work. They just have lots of bears and hogs now.

Oh crap, nevermind. I'm trying to play the role of a dumbass poaching dirtbag here; and it ain't easy!

Really goin' fishin' now.

Most of this thread has been a good one. When the Macho B story came out I had invested some time to research a great deal about the story and related Jaguar information.

Mudhen:

I also read about the drainages in Mexico approx 100 miles south of Douglas. I also read that the Northern Jaguar Alliance was working on an agreement with neighboring ranchers to set up cameras and pay $100 per picture with hopes of stopping the killings and getting a better idea of the size of the local population.


----

As for old Macho B.... I did some digging around and was lucky enough to have a Game and Fish person talk with me at length, before this topic got hot. Some of the details were interesting. Macho B was definately on the decline. He was missing one uppper canine and the opposing lower canine was broken off at half length. As for his 120 pounds. it is a weight that would be appropriate for this region. Most sources say the weight range is 125 to 220 pounds for males. The weight is determined by prey in the region. I have read the Pantanel region of Brazil has recorded males of 300 pounds.

----
I agree with Dennis there are more jaguars around that we might realize.

Elderly Russell Sprung told me a jaguar story from his youth near Sonita where the local ranchers tracked and killed one in the Santa Ritas. Another friend knew a guy that lived in Patagonia and had a mine operation where he saw one. Those kids near Nogales shot one with a shotgun years ago. I hope someday to get lucky and see one myself. (I did see a jaguarundi behind my house near Pima Canyon in Tucson 13 yrs ago)

If you can get your hands on the record book for big game in Az you'll see that a few jaguars were entered. A female was killed near the Grand Canyon, a male near Big Lake!

There is an old jaguar hide tacked to the ceiling in a general store in Quemado NM.

There WERE around in the past and PERHAPS there is enough wild country to have a few take up residence here.

I think there was some poor judgement with the capture of Macho B and his being euthinized. Enough has been said.

Please, DPole.
Don't short yourself...I have been on this thread waiting and I knew you would come back smarting off. It's just a time gig waiting for you. You mention in your sig an 800 number to call in poachers...and I agree with that. Turn them all in! Yet, Mccain did plead guilty, all on his own accord, instead of facing a jury of his peers. If I was 110% innocent, I would stand my ground in court.

To my way of thinking, the first time Macho B was caught it was within the scope of the federal permit, incidental. The day that cat died, with all the evidence about it being baited in, that is poaching a T&E species, in and of itself, no matter who you are.

Yet, dpole, I figured you knew about all of this, long before it ever happened, henseforth you were the one to call your 800 poaching charge against Mccain. You deserve a reward for your supersluth ops...

Next...Cattle Killer, Brett D....You out there??? Just say yes to this thread.

Final news?



http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ied-jaguar-death-remain-hidden/17339983/

Amazing what lengths they have gone through to keep this hush. Emil was the only one prosecuted! What a joke.

Sounds like someone is WELL connected.

Old news, from last year.

Here is some current news:

NM ranchers, farmers sue feds over jaguar habitat
By Associated Press
PUBLISHED: Thursday, May 21, 2015 at 8:57 am

Farmers and ranchers are suing the federal government over a decision to set aside hundreds of square miles near the U.S.-Mexico border as habitat essential for the conservation of the jaguar.

The New Mexico Farm and Livestock Bureau, the New Mexico Cattle Growers’ Association and the New Mexico Federal Lands Council filed their complaint Wednesday.

They say the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service should not have set aside habitat in New Mexico because the area wasn’t occupied by the jaguar when the animal was listed as an endangered species.

The agency didn’t respond to emails seeking comment.

Officials acknowledged last year when they made the designation that no female jaguars or breeding had been documented in the U.S. in more than 50 years. Only a lone male has been spotted recently by wildlife cameras in Arizona’s Santa Rita Mountains.

Brings to remembrance when this happened. Not doubt Govt people have their agenda. They'll lie and cheat to get what they want.

Reminds me of when someone saw a wolverine near Lake Tahoe a few years ago, and made a big deal of the giant weasel expanding its range into the Sierras.

There's a wolverine pelt on the wall of the general store, near Wishon Dam, CA

Food, water, shelter, space.

Critters go there, if allowed. Growing up in ND there were the occasional reports of cougars. Always poo-poooed. I immigrated to Alaska in the latter 60's.

Now ND has a season on them.

Ya i remember the cougar deal here in North Dakota also.It was hard for them to deny the teeth and claw marks on the horses though. ED K