K-I've long been an arm pit shooter, or more so a behind the shoulder shooter unless the angle gives me a point). Just the way I was trained I guess.

Quite often I/we catch a shoulder or both fronts. Now I could be wrong here but it seems to me that I see no diff tween when we hit the fronts or don't. At times the critter will hop around a bit and or ramble off. Or if we hit the front/fronts and the critter hits the turf it still does the chicken for a while(which certainly isn't the end of the world to me).

And when we hit the lungs it seems to me that the critter will either do a short dash, and or hit the turf and be down and out now. With no chicken dancing though, it's pure plain lights out!

Guess what I'm asking anyone who cares to chime in. How often when you hit the shoulders do you see the game go right down? And how often does the critter take a short hike on you?

My memory may not be the greatest but I just don't see the critters hit the turf right now when I hit the shoulder/shoulders as I do when I hit the lungs with speed.

Appreciate your comments and experiences.

Thx

Dober

I almost always go for shoulders. I've had 1 black bear run on me, and that was an behind the shoulder double lung shot. All shoulders have dropped.

The longest run I've had deer do were double lung shots. More drops with shoulder shots. That said, I don't have enough kills with behind the shoulder to compare. I've had double lungers drop also.

I think much has to do with the bullet also and obviously every critter is different. I never saw a downside with breaking running gear.

If you hit both shoulders lower than the mid-point, often you'll only fringe the vitals. A lot of it depends on where the animal's legs are positioned, and the animal itself, though.

I once shot a big mule deer through both shoulders about 1/3 of the way up the body at 300 yards with a .280 Remington and 150 Partition. The bullet exited, naturally, but the deer was a long way from dead. It collapsed at the shot and after pushing itself along by the hind legs for a few feet, actually stood up briefly, even though both shoulders were broken, then fell again. I had to finished it off with another shot. If it had been a bighorn ram near a cliff it could easily have gone over the side.

Pigs, however, have their heart and lungs a little further forward than deer, and a shot in the same place is always suddenly fatal.

If I want to put an animal down right now with a shoulder shot, I am about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way up the body, where the spine is between the shoulderblades. How far up depends on he animal. Some animals have more or less of a shoulder hump, so require a little different hold.

Mountain goat comes to mind. I'm seen them hump shot and it ain't pretty.

I started aimimg for shoulders about 10 years ago on the advice of a hunter who I respected.

I have found more cases of the animal hitting the turf while aiming for shoulders than with slightly behind.

But... I have found no hard and fast rule. If I have found anything, it is that every situation and animal can be different.

The one thing I can say though is that ALL cases of the animal going right down without a twitch have been CNS shots. All shots on the shoulder where the animal goes right down theres always a "chicken dance" and leg kicks.

I think the go to shot to anchor any animal is high on the shoulders. 1/3 from the top. Take out both shoulders and break the spine. The animal may not be lights out dead and require a finishing shot, but it is not going anywhere.

All lung/heart shots dead run and drop. Usually under 50yds. Hit an antelope with a 257 last year in lungs with a BT. No exit wound and ran almost 100 yards.When I dressed out the lungs were soup and top of heart missing. Amazing how tough some animals are.

Shoulder shots, especially a bit forward and close to neck(CNS) , have resulted in a drop or a very short run. Wt buck in Montana this year shot in the forward shoulder/ neck area about 400 yds. He was standing about 50 yds from a property line and was chasing a doe. I chose a neck area shot to drop him. I shot and thought I missed because he wasn't in scope. Buddy who was spotting said it did a complete flip and landed on it's back stone dead.

I've shot them straight through the heart (couldn't find the heart when field dressing) and have had them run another 30-50 yds, but the last elk I shot was a "high on the shoulder" shot and it went DRT. I pulled the shot (I'll admit when I'm off) because my pack straps were in the way, but the bull went straight down faster than I've ever seen one go down before. It wasn't just because I was using my 338 either, a good shot from my 30-06 would have had the same effect, sorry to say (the shot was around 85 yards or so).

Personally, I am an equal opportunity shooter - behind shoulder or on the shoulder with a self induced cartridge threshold in play.

IMHO I would offer this by saying from the big game I have shot and witnessing other hunter kills, shoulder shots with a good constructed bullet dropped larger big game (elk, caribou, bear, moose) more consistently than shoulder shots on goat, sheep, antelope and deer.

Of course there is always the exception....

I am an armpit shooter. I aim to put the bullet in the lungs, but only just above the heart

I guess I do not see a lot of difference with shoulder(s) hit or just behind. I would hate to say more run off a short ways with one over the other. I will say though that even with a decent hit though just a tad back I have had to chase deer too far. A shoulder shot can deflect and miss vitals and then you have a three legged run off that can be very hard to catch up with.

I prefer three quarters to or away so I can run the bullet just above the heart and get both lungs too without touching shoulders, but you don't always get that.

If I cannot put the bullet close enough to the heart to rupture it I tend to keep it as high as a high shoulder shot and forward so I get the big vessels and it bleeds out almost as fast. When hit there, they often will do the sag/knees buckle and go down in place. That looks a lot different than the flop that come with the high shoulder hit. I only use a high shoulder when I have to be sure it goes down in place and stays there, I don't like losing the meat.

I am a shoulder shooter. I have never had a deer/antelope run anywhere when both shoulders were broken. If only one shoulder is broken I have had them run a short ways.

I have also had to shoot several deer behind the front the shoulder and they have all run off but one. This past season I shot a doe behind the front shoulder standing between two trees with a 130 grain BT from a 270 WSM. The doe hit the ground but did raise her head a couple times before giving it up.

Dink

High shoulders, aiming for spine, IMHO, leaves no upper vertical room for error. Just a statement.

As to running, in certain circumstances I can see having to drop an animal. Moose on edge of water, goat on cliff etc..

Other than that I see no need, but then again I've said before, I'm not averse to trailing an animal, its part of the complete hunt package for me. I actually enjoy the puzzle.

As for me, IF I shoot an animal somewhere other than the head, its typically that lower chest shot that you have used Mark. Its never let me down either.

The reason I always try to shoot shoulders is the deer leases here are not very big and if a deer gets off your lease your done. There is a very good chance the adjoining lease will not let you look for your deer.

Dink

On deer and elk I see about a 50/50 short dash or DRT when shot through both the shoulders or just behind the shoulder.

Straight double lunger for me and I do not have enough data for shoulder shot. I just don't do it.Very seldom have I had any animla go more than 50-60 yds with a double lunger.But have seen other hunters take shoulder shots where the animal runs of on three legs. Not pretty

I grew up being taught to shoot behind the shoulder, double lung shots were the norm, and so was the deer running. Some didn't go far, some did. It seemed to be chance at best as to if it was far or short.

I decieded to try shoulder shots this year and read JB's advice given in another thread concerning the aim 2/3rds up. I shot two whitetail this year hitting 2/3rds up and both drop in thier tracks. One kicked on the ground for a little bit, the other just dropped and bled out.

For deer I want to anchor I feel pretty good about a neck shot or JB's 2/3rds up shoulder shot.

Hi Mark, I go high in the shoulders if it's right and I'm near a river, bayou or something I don't want the animal getting into.

This usually gets the lower spine and there is no chicken dance to watch and I don't get to swim bayous to find deer.

If it lands too far back, you will mess up straps and loin.

Below is where I try to pop 'em. One thing for sure, it will tell you what your bullets are made of, especially on pigs.

To me it depends on the weapon and the angle.

Yellow is gun
Red is archery



Notice no red on this last one?

Swampy's..........

gawd that's funny..

Is that where swampy pokes his bullets or his johnson......or both

Naw, that couldn't be Swampy's secret shootin' spot. He's never killed a deer that big.

True dat..

This one better?

I do believe that IS the buck on his golf cart!

I believe the only reason he recovered it is he hit the Femoral artery...

I like this thread for some reason....

That is funny chit...

Dink

Thats one of the funniest things I've seen today. Thanks for the laugh.

Buck fever....

11 shots eh? How many reloads is that in a Remington 700 .30-06?

Tom, I about pee'd myself.....
I've always been an armpit guy, but of late, I've really taken a liking to the high shoulder on whitetails.

Oh, and, I think it depends on what you're shooting. We all know what happens if you're shooting the anemic 270.

Tell me more about Swampy's low colon shots!! Mark as to the original question, I have shot a lot of deer in the shoulders up about half way and behind the shoulders and when the shoulders are broken they are doing the flop and spin and the lung shot ones run up to about 200 yards. A doe I shot this year at about 325 with a 7mm mag with a 140 cup and core at the back edges of the shoulder blades was knocked down, got up and went about 75 yards with a blood trail you could see from 50 yards away. Russ

That must mean it blows up on contact

Armored deer.

I don't have that many do the lunger dash, maybe it's the rounds/bullets I tend to use?

Tween me and several buds we all shot 6/06's, 70 NBT's ran hard (maybe even harder than we should of...o the shock) and of about 50 head of small big game (lopes/deer) I can only recall one lunger that took more than a couple steps. That one a doe went about 15 yds b4 taking the dirt nap.

My 7 Mashburn Super with 150 NBT's seems to send them to the Nozler Nap right now as well. Many kills with total electrocution from near to far.

Dats why I'm wondering cause I hear people talk about crunch the shoulders and they go right down. I've not seen that all that often though it do from time to time. And from reading the posts it sounds like it do happen but not all the time. To me that's pretty much like the lung shots with my speedy bullets.

Sounds like placement to get them on the turf is sort of critical and I may try to make that happen a bit more this year. Out of curiousity sake.

I'll have to think about it a bit as I just seem to tuck it behind and let it go. Too many years of building the habit, not that there's anything wrong with it.

Fun to toss it around though, thx for the comments and thoughts.

Dober

Thats GREAT, hey wheres Swampy, I'm wanting to see his comeback...

Someone please post a link to the original Swampy thread about that armored dink, I need some comic relief...

Mark, I have found the lunger dash to be more prevalent with the heavy bullet/to caliber and shotgun slugs rather than the high speed/ low drag hits. Russ

I like the double shoulder knuckle shot. I have shot quite a few critters in the "armpit" and double lung, but they always go farther than I'd like, sometimes surprisingly far.

Granted, most of the deer I have shot are with shotguns or handguns, so speed and projectile is a definite part of the equation.

I have had several animals hit through the running gear, with minimal soft tissue wounds, not go a step with large frontal area/minimal destruction bullets, despite being very much alive. Paralyzed, for the most part.

When hunting out of state, the use of different rifles and bullets haven't really changed my views on "ideal". I want two broken front shoulders and a nice blood trail, although a frangible bullet in the lung area can give hammer-like kills that are pretty cool.

My rule of thumb - broadside shots - come straight up the leg, hold crosshairs at midbody, squeeze the trigger.

If hit exactly broadside and in center of shoulder, they normally hit the turf right there, flop around on the ground a couple of seconds but generally aren't mobile.

If the shot drifts back a bit, you're in the armpit and they do tend to be mobile but not in any organized manner - your "chicken dance". I have had animals go much farther than I cared for. If the shot lands a bit forward, your break major bones, scapula, etc and they drop on the spot.

On quartering shots I tend to aim for the center of the off shoulder.

Not directly broadside - when I thought they were - has given me issues over the years. I shot a bear once that I swear was dead broadside. I watched it for 20 minutes before I shot it, had a dead rest over a log and shot distance of 50 yards. I distinctly recall squeezing the trigger - everything was perfect. 'Cept the bear was quartering to me a tad. Only hit 1 lung and liver. That bear went 150 yards with a 45-70 hole through it. 150 yards in the Canadian bush - I was lucky to find it.

Mark, I too am an armpit shooter. Of course it depends on what angle you get so sometime you have to take the shoulder as that is what you got.

After a lot of years and a lot of dead deer I quit predicting what the durn things are going to do when shot somewhere besides cns. With a cns they just fdd.

Close as I can come to predicting is knowing that if the deer is relaxed and un aware there is about a 90% better chance of it dropping to the shot than if it is wired up.

BCR

I am generally an armpit shooter too (unless a nice head shot presents itself ). I have noticed that the faster bullets (i.e. .300 WM &165 Sierra, .243 & 70-80 grain bullets, .280 AI & 120 NBT)seem to kill quicker for me than the slower moving stuff.

You are risking messing up some prime meat shooting them there Thomas. (Yellow dot=rifle)



I know, I've done it . Try moving it more forward next time. Hit's the spine or wiring and they go plop.

No loin and backstrap destruction either. It's a win/win.

Note how much room for error you have if you come straight up the leg.

I'd also say that the animal is a variable. Deery creatures seem to be impressed with velocity and shrapnel. Bears not so much. The elk I shot last year wasn't real impressed with velocity either. I did the 'come up the leg' thing on him and hit exactly where I was aiming. He still stumbled downhill 75 yards. I'm not sure he would have gone that far had gravity not assisted.

'nother pic. i usually work for this shot too.. maybe just move the circle a tad to the rear.

I've had deer DRT from fast expanding bullets through the lungs, launched from a .25-06 or a .270. The only deer I've ever had run off from a fast bullet was a doe that took a 100 grain bullet .25 cal in the armpit, but the bullet cartwheeled down and went out the bottom of her belly; she bled little and took 1/2 hour to find.

The last two does I shot were both quartering toward me, and I took the onside shoulder in both cases. One was with a .30-40 krag shooting a 180 Nosler BT, launched at about 2200 fps. Shoulder broken, one rib broken on the onside, two ribs broken on the offside, and the shoulder muscles cut on the offside. She did a big face plant at the shot, but still made it 50 yards or so.

The other was also shot in the shoulder with a .30cal 125 gr Nosler BT, fired from a .30-30 at ~2350 fps. She ran about 75 yards before piling up, about 20 feet from a fence, which indeed would have made recovery a problem.

I think I'm seeing why, 80-90 years ago, guys who grew up hunting with .30-30's and .35 Remingtons, were tickled as hell to get '06's and .270's.

Agreed 100%.

I generally try to tuck it in low and behind the shoulder on a broadside presentation. I don't care if they run a little. They end up well bled out and I don't spoil a lot of meat that way. This past year I did take a high shoulder shot on one buck. For a couple of reasons I wanted him DRT. .308, 165 grain BT, yanked the rug right out from under him but cost me shoulder steaks on both sides.

Mark,

I try to keep it out of the shoulder; I hate wrecking meat for what I'd call no good reason. Not always possible, so I've pegged a few shoulders on entrance or exit, never both shoulders though., because if they are broadside I'm aiming behind the shoulder.

The deer I've taken out a shoulder on have gone right down if memory serves.

I'm a shoulder shooter..This one was hit a bit low (180 MRX)..I've hit several critters this low, and except for 1 time they always went 50 yards or so..A bit higher up they drop like a rock.




You cant see it, but this little bull was shot right in the front shoulder socket, and luckily it still clipped the heart, but he covered about 100 yards, (200 grain accubond)

I'm a "whatever is offered" shooter.....and quartering to or away,I'm generally going for bone either coming or going,aiming for the off side shoulder area if the angle is right.

Theory being to get some degree of running gear destruction along the way,with the gooey stuff destroyed at the same time.

I tend to hunt with fairly tough bullets driven fast(but not always),as I've seen the rug jerked out with moderate velocity rounds as well.

A Saskatchewan 10 point pushed out on a drive was loping to another piece of bush at about 180 yards slightly below me,sorta angling on,and a 165 Bitterroot caught him on the point of the shoulder as he ran....I saw him disappear as the rifle recoiled.....just jerked down.

A 140 BBC from a 7 mag caught a mountain mule deer at last light with a lower shoulder shot at 300 yards(kinda upper leg, mid body)....he pushed off with hind legs and tumbled down slope.Like JB said too far forward to catch vitals on the perfect broadside shot.In skinning that deer the vitals were not touched but he sure was dead when he stopped rolling..

A 300 lb black at 70 yards was hit perfectly broadside with the 140BBC from a 280 Rem @3100;just ribs/lungs/ribs,and he collapsed and never got to his feet.....I figured this was not supposed to happen, but his chest was just mush...yet a mule deer hit similarly with 130 gr Speer at 250 yards or so trotted off 30 yards before going down....you could stick an egg in the exit hole.

And a bull elk, quartering on at about 450 yards with a 300 Win Mag and 180 NPT @3100 from slight angle above collapsed like a safe fell on him.....the bullet took the onside shoulder/upper leg and wrecked the chest, penetrated to the off side flank....he never got back up...

Elk can seem kinda bullet proof at times....on 6x6 was hit with a 200 gr NPT from a 300 Weatherby at about 100 yards near the last rib with intentions of making it to the offside shoulder area,which it did, but the bull when next seen a few seconds later,was walking through the lodgepole clearly on 3 legs and another through the slats dropped him....yet another collapsed at the shot and cascaded down the mountain when a 160 Partition from a 7 RM hit him with a high shoulder shot..It broke them both and exited.This was a "7 em em,no need to shoot him again" type deal.....

And a perfectly broadside brown bear was held on the beach when a 250 gr BBC took both shoulders but no spine and blew out the offside;again too far forward to catch the soft stuff but I fixed that with the thrid shot back through lungs.....he was barely able to push along with hind legs for 8 yards or so.

You see funny stuff sometimes....I guess it sort of depends because I have seen some mixed results whether the shots were through just lungs, or shoulders....but it seems to me that nothing goes very far with either type of hit if a good expanding bullet is used that can handle the penetration required.

I figure I will always try to break as much bone as I can while still getting vitals,and have not had much problem one way or the other.

If God didn't want us to shoot bone, he wouldn't have given critters shoulders..........

Some guys just prefer to shoot the rear shoulders...grin

In my opinion, when speaking in broad terms of the "shoulder" to describe a specific part of game anatomy, such as with a deer, we don't always agree as to what is the shoulder. The shoulder at times is written to describe a single specific bone such as the scapula, at times it describes a specific joint, at times it describes all the bone within that region from the neck to lower leg, and at times it describes the entire front quarter of the animal, including all flesh and muscle, from the neck to lower leg. This area described as a "shoulder" can be very specific and small, or it can be very broad and large covering an entire region of the deer anatomy.

As a longtime selfbow/longbow hunter using very primitive tackle, I tend to have very limited range of shot presentations, compared to a rifle, when it comes to reliable through the vitals penetration. As a result, I tend to visualise the exact placement of the heart and I aim for the imaginary exit that will place the arrow on a path over the heart to the exit. When rifle shooting, I do the same, with the exception the rifle gives me far greater options in both shot presentations and in distance. As a result, I find that having the shot placement through and over the heart, while leaving the heart intact, to have the best overall outcome. The heart is too big a chunk of good meat to waste

I've experienced a number of low heart shots where the animal traveled several times farther compared to what I've experienced when shot over the heart. If any of you guys have experienced having the wind knocked out of you in sports, or from having lugs go flat from an injury, you cannot go too far, you'll go down quick. Flip side, we have a training film where the bad guy loses his heart from a pistol shot during hand to hand combat which was captured on a security camera. The guy kept his lungs but his heart was destroyed. That guy put up one heck of a fight while dead on his feet, at one point he ran a fair distance before finally falling dead from lack of oxygen. I'm of the opinion that game animals are no different; CNS or lose both lungs and they tend to go down quick, no CNS but a fatal wound while keeping one or both lungs, then they can go a good ways.

Best

Best

My shots are the sum of what time of day it is.If it's in the morning or early evening I like to shoot them behind the shoulder.If it's late evening or almost dark or a big buck,I shoot them high shoulder to hope to break their neck so I don't have to look for them.

Both Ga whitetails and feral pigs hit the dirt, no steps, when hit dead on in the shoulder joint. Our W/t's and pigs are in the 180-220 lbs size. Just killed a 200 lb pig last week, went through both shoulders, bang flop. FWIW, Dick

I've always tried for the center of the biggest and deadliest target, the lungs not too far above the heart.
If I have to shoot through a shoulder to get at those, I've noticed that works better/faster.
I idea is to give myself as much room for error as possible. Those darn critters have a bad habit of moving, sometimes even before I can shoot'em. Or they have the bad habit of getting me so excited that I don't hit'em perfectly. Or they have the bad manners to not be as far or even further than I thought. Or to insist that I shoot'em when the wind is blowing, etc. If I miss by a few inches, I still have a killing shot.
I've noticed that almost all the time I get at least one shoulder, especially if that shoulder is on the near side, they rarely go anywhere. On the off side, it at least slows them down.
I'll also admit to using both the liver and even the hip joint if the animal is wounded and I have no other shot. both, BTW, work. E

If the animal is hit already, I'll take any shot possible and not apologize for it. Even if it is a swampy special.

It's fairly rare occurance for me to need a 2nd shot though.

Yup! I like to hit them in that forward boney stuff......they just don't go anywhere.

A lot of it has to do with the size of the critter, bullet design, velocity and shot angle I am offered (and if I want the cape ;o) ). If I am shooting Nosler Ballistic Tips, I punch the arm pit when trying to save the cape. I know with the BT's I am going to get a major exit hole. ;o)

If I don't care about the cape and I am shooting a harder bullet, I smack them dead center 1/3 of the way up the body in line with the front leg. Both type of shots pretty much guarantee bang flops.

Fast shooting cartridges and hitting an animal anywhere in the front shoulder/lungs creates massive hydrostatic shock. I can't remember an animal ever taking a step after being shot anywhere in that area with a 140 grain Nosler ballistic tip at 3,200-3,300 fps.

I'm a ballistic tip fan, but even when I shoot deer and elk with the the .30-06 and 165 ballistic tips at 2,800 fps, critters just drop at the shot when hit center shoulder.

I see the guys on TV arm pit shooting deer while waiting for the "perfect" broad site shot. Their deer ALWAYS run off. They are shown recovering them in the dark hours later or the next day. What the heck is up with that? I have killed hundreds of deer and just don't have to track them. The only time I do is when I muff the shot, which is really rare.

I would rather obliterate the shoulder bones, lose meat and have them drop, rather than lung punch them and chase them. Flinch

Yotes gotta eat to right...

Dober

I lost a big AL pig over the weekend to a shoulder shot. Standing on a slight angle at 140 yds when a 130 Partition from a 270 WSM hit him. I heard the thwack and when I recovered from the shot he was laying on his side not moving. As I was congratulating myself on such a fine job and reaching down to pick up the empty I looked up only to see him dashing off. He was never seen again. No blood. Only three deep prints in the dirt where he jumped back up - the missing print was from the hit shoulder. I was very confident in that shot with that bullet at that speed. He absorbed one heck of a lot of energy. Any thoughts?

Tough little piggie!
He went wee wee wee all the way home!

I can't wait for them to get to pest control numbers in Ohio!

If I hit the shoulder it is by accident. I used to do a lot of culling in Minneapolis with the Metro Bowhunters Resource Base.
The double lung shot is the only shot they wanted us to take/use.
If it works with a string gun then it should work even better with a chunk of high speed lead IMO.
Whenever I have hit the shoulder it seems to turn the meat to strawberry jello which looks to nasty to eat.
whelennut

Me too.

Back in the olden days (before we had cell phones and X-cab pickups) times were rough....
There were not as many elk 40-50 years ago as today. When my dad and his three long time hunting partners killed elk, they shared the spoils--regardless if they killed 1 elk or they went 4 for 4.

Anybody who wasted meat with a shoulder shot would generally receive a bit of ribbing back at camp.

Consequently, before I was ever old enough to start carrying a rifle on my own, I had it drilled into my head to shoot behind the shoulder, in the "armpit".

Besides, I've seen elk travel a surprisingly long ways with one, and occasionally both, shoulders broken. A bullet that traverses the boiler room seems to stop them just as surely as a shoulder shot that breaks a leg.....at least in my experience.

It seems to me that the term "shoulder" is not generally used as a precise definition. If one means above the upper joint (ie: Scapula/shoulder blade), a shot there on big ungulates doesn't drop the animal in many cases. It may stop him, or it may not, but, IME, they can walk even with a splintered scapula.

OTOH, breaking the upper joint, still a "shoulder" shot in my book, effectively removes the leg from the equation. So does anywhere lower. And breaking both of those joints collapses the gear. Basically we're talking taking out front legs though.

I have yet to see an animal making it to the ER to get help for a gaping chest wound. They always work. Well.

Very nice

I'll add that the two most experienced bear guides I know (Jim Shockey on black bears, and Phil Shoemaker on brown bears) BOTH recommend heart/lung shots over trying to "break them down." There are two reasons: They've had too many hunters get so focused on one or both shoulders that the vitals were only fringed, if not missed entirely; and they've found solid lung shots put bears down quickly, regardless of the size of the bear.

This has also been my bear experience, though it's far more limited than those of Jim or Phil. In fact both my biggest black bear and my lone grizzly (bigger than the black bear) were killed with heart/lung "armpit" shots. The black bear went about 15 yards before dropping, the grizzly about 50. No bone was hit on either shot, though each bullet did go through the meat of the far shoulder, just behind the bone.

You missed the shoulder. I would wager you hit the top of the spine, or shot just under it. Either way, it knocks them out for a second, then they jump up and run off. Same with deer, elk, etc. I have seen it many times.

I wish guys would chamber another round and stay on the animal, rather than start celebrating. I have seen WAY too many animals jump up and run off after the shot. Had the hunter stayed on them, they would have been recovered, but no, they were too busy patting themselves on the back to notice the animal running off. Several were not recovered. Flinch

Whenever an animal collapses straight down, I am extremely suspicious, and immediately get another round in the chamber (which happens pretty automatically anyway) and the scope back on the animal.

Even if they go down after a little run, I do the same thing--and I'm especially suspicious if they do something out of the ordinary. I once was guiding a Midwestern hunter after mule deer, who thought the 7mm Remington Magnum was pure death, especially compared to the .30-06 he used to shoot. He whacked a good buck at a little over 400 yards, and the buck started spinning in a small circle.

I said, "Put another one in the chamber and get on him again."

"Naw," he said, ejecting the empty. "When they spin like that they always go down." At just about that point the buck quit spinning and started running, disappearing into a deep draw full of thick junipers. We never found him.

I used to be nuttin but a bone breaker.But the last few moose and deer ect have been behind the shoulder.Only difference I've seen is a lot less meat damage.

A STW or Win mag hitting square on the bone is a nasty mess.Or any round for that matter.Bears are always square on the bone.

I guess my experience has been a little different than MD's and Flinch's.

I've never shot a bear before, but the whitetails I've shot that got up from a double high shoulder impact have been just 2.

On the 2 that I can recall, it was my fault.

Usually, I later found out that I did not hit them high as I wanted, (Missed Clipping underneath the spine).

But I do agree that a single shoulder plowed buck on 3 legs can cover some ground before giving up the ghost.

A double shouldered one that has no spine impact goes into dozer mode, but usually dies pretty quick IME.

When I am able to hit the shoulders and clip the bottom of the spine, they have never gotten up.

I try to run my bullet higher into the shoulder than most folks, but it's worked pretty good.

Like I said before, there is no one shot for every circumstance, but there are usually multiple effective shots for the same circumstances.

JM

Most of the deer I've shot through the shoulders have been DRR, but not all. The most dramatic example was a mature buck I shot in Missouri. He had been doggin does like a wild man and was really charged up. I got him with a a 165 Gameking from an '06 at 230 yards. The bullet landed on the meaty part of the on shoulder. The bullet lodged in the hide on the off shoulder after hitting bone on that side. The top of his heart and his lungs were completely gone and that rascal still made it nearly 100 yards before giving up the ghost. I attribute his toughness to the rut-induced adrenaline. To me, this exemplifies the fact that rutted up bucks die harder than normal.

Im a meat hunter. I shoot them behind the shoulder. Hitting big bone turns a hole the size of your fist into one the size of a hubcap. Dosen't seem necessary.

I accept, and try to make good of whatever situation is given to me...

I very much agree with BobinNH..

If I feel a presented shot is safe, and responsible I'm more then willing to drop the hammer on shoulder, lung, quartering too, or away...I don't get a lot of chances in VT, or NY so when the time does arise I really work hard to make it happen.

B8

This diagram illustrates the lethality of "behind the shoulder" shot placement. I've toppled dozens of deer and many elk with this shot placement.

TR

Every deer I've hit in the shoulder(s) has gone straight down. I have had one move with the running gear knocked out, it was a doe that pushed herself about 10 yards with her back legs before she stopped and I shot her in the neck.

Most that are hit in the shoulders still do kick for a couple seconds even though they can't get up.

edited to add: I hit a bit 8, high on the near shoulder, missing the other and he ran about 100 yds or so before dropping. Bullet didn't exit, and never did find it.

i tend to run by a set of priorities when shooting for deer, and usually i don't have a lot of time to make decisions...

if i decide to shoot, my ideal target is a pure heart lung, broadside shot...
if that presentation is denied me, i tend to still aim for the heart-lungs, but often involve a shoulder one side or the other...

i don't remember ever shooting intentionally for both shoulders on a broadside critter of any sort, and can't think of a reason why i would do so...

and, FWIW, super bullets are not required for any of the shots that i normally take on deer, or deer sized critters...
the .243 and 85 bthp gameking is good for any of these shots...
i have come to rely on the partition bullet for any hunt that i spend travel money on, but that is a product of having a bunch of them left over after a bear hunt, and using them all over the place on coyotes, deer, and antelopes...
a guy with a 30-06 and 200 gr partitions really is good to go for anything...

as to what will let a critter go further, or wiggle more... there's just too many variables, and i refuse to consider it as a valid question...
i do what i do... the critters all end up on a plate if i do it halfways right...

Agreed on Drop Right the [bleep] Now shots. When they do that I'm always ready to throw another one in them. I feel much better if they take 2 steps and drop.

Those have started worrying me a bit too over the years. I put another in and get ready to a second dose.

To answer the original question, with a firearm I aim for the exit even if it means hitting a shoulder on the way in or out. With archery gear, I do tend to stay clear of the shoulder and if the angle isn't right, I don't shoot. I've "mentored" a few new hunters and one thing I stress is that that the so called perfect broadside shot is pretty much a fantasy. Pretty much alwasy (at least in my limited experience) deer are at some kind of angle to you no matter how slight. Aim accordingly.

+1

I love the high shoulder shot if I feel the need to anchor an animal in its tracks. If things look good, though, I like the double lung shot.

Oh, yeah, especially in fairly open country.

I had a very disappointing experience this fall and will give the lesson learned. I was shooting a 50 cal mzlr with a smokeless barrel, enough H4198 under a 250-grain saboted Barnes Spit Fire to give me 2200 fps; this load zeroed at 200 yds gives me about 4.5" groups at three hundred yards and at that distance they land right at the top of the heavy vertical post with the scope set at 6x.

Right after sunrise about 20 deer including a big, wide, grey muzzled, old buck worked over a ridge and into a pasture below the ridge I'm on. As the buck neared a blow down I'd lazed at ~ 200 yds and stopped I decided to take the shot and held on his right, front shoulder quartering on. The whump that came back to me sounded like a 2x4 against a mattress--he stumbled and stopped head down slightly. This deer was mine I thought and like a bonehead I watched, and watched, and watched some more..instead of stuffing the front loader again. With a centerfire I never do this always chambering another round and staying on target. The buck slowly turned around and his whole offside was covered in blood from an exit that seemed a bit high and back but which was surely and quickly going to be lethal. I watched as he slowly trudged back up to the ridge he initially came over and was gone. This is not good and I'm not happy. I quickly loaded now and in ten minutes I came over the top and jumped him out of some brush 80 yds or so below the crest. Now I was really getting concerned.

Long story short. It was 8 am and I tracked a sometimes ample blood trail--even seemingly arterial, spraying out laterally, and bright red--until 2:30 that afternoon, jumping him maybe three more times in the process. He hadn't lost a step; I just couldn't believe it. I lost the trail in a thick patch of cedars only a half mile where I had started after trailing perhaps 4 miles or so. He had simply made a big circle and was back home.

Conclusion: I believe he took a small step forward as the trigger broke. Still, I had hoped I had gotten the liver, the back part of the lungs, the aorta up against the spine,
the kidneys..there's no way he survived this which greatly saddens me; yet he didn't seem at all affected and seemed to gain strength as I pushed him. I believe the bullet passed through no-man's land between the lungs and the spine, missing the aorta and forward of the liver and kidneys, perhaps getting a small pumper in some muscle that he kept open by moving.


Lesson: stop waiting for him to fall at your wonderful shot, reload the mzlr and shoot again! While I've never liked muzzleloading and the general hassle I view them as, it was my fault. I had enough time as the deer didn't see me or know where the shot came from; I simply didn't reload and shoot again.

The limited open country hunting I've done, I remember being struck by the seemingly easy post-shot logistics. Compared to 20-yard visibility in a jungle in the rain.

Or a willow/alder creekbottom where you'd be lucky to see 20 yards.

Have found lung-shot deer in those places by crawling around on my hands and knees for an hour or two. They were dead from a solid lung shot, but did the 50-yard dash.

As both a rifle and archery hunter this is always a topic that I mull over during every season. The geometry of shot angles just can't be over emphasized and that is where bowhunting has made me a better rifle hunter.

Since I value every ounce of meat from an animal, I try to avoid shoulder (bone impact) shots when possible, but if that's the best shot afforded to me, then that's what they get. Animals with either lungs or heart missing tend to expire relatively quickly, but I've never had the opportunity to shoot a mountain goat so the need to anchor one in it's tracks is outside of my realm of experience.

Quick story regarding deer dropping in their tracks. I was guiding my dad a couple of years ago for elk when we had a monster mule deer wander up the opposite ridge line. I had a tag in my pocket and my dad was pushing me to shoot. We ranged the distance at 426 and I was carrying a .270. I shoot that distance about 3 times a month so I felt good, but not with that gun. I decided to take the shot and that buck dropped like a sack of rocks. I shucked another shell in the chamber and tried to get on him, but he was defiladed behind some rocks and all could see was this gigantic set of horns sticking up.

I was pretty excited but we kept an eye on him for about 20 minutes before we decided to get horseback. We had to ride around the canyon to get to him so it was going to be a 20-30 minute ride. We took off on our horses and about the time we made it to the canyon terminus, I checked back through my glasses to make sure he was still down, only to see his darn head trying to raise up.

We high-tailed it as fast as we could to get another shot, but we were still over 500 yards out when he jumped up. I jerked my rifle out of the scabbard and fired off-hand which had the same effect as throwing a stick his direction.

Needless to say, that would have been my biggest deer to date (well over 200 inches according the estimates of both my dad and I). I looked for him for 4 straight days and never found him. I've got a cattle permit for the area and every year while working cattle I look around for a really big rack and what's left of his carcass.

Even now I get sick to my stomach thinking about it. I wish I had not pulled that trigger.

I shot a pretty big 8 pointer in Missouri last fall, at about 130 yards or so, almost a broadside picture shot. I hit both shoulders with the .270/130, but he didn't even flinch, he just took off down a lane into a cedar thicket. I was sure of the shot, so I idled on down that way, giving him some time. I could see up the other side of the hill, so I knew he hadn't gone West, or south, and doubted strongly he'd go north, either. He didn't, he'd gone halfway down the hill, just pushing himself with his hind legs. I found him with a muddy face, and grass intertwined in his rack. Nice deer.
We took the tractor to him, and picked him up with the frontend loader. It's nice to hunt farmground.