I hunt deer, bear, elk. Alot of the time you only get a chance at a beast at closing light, pouring rain, and brush so thick you can get stuck suspended in the air just trying to walk through it. These conditions make for some tough tracking! I would apreciate your thoughts on a .30 cal or bigger for laying down the smack! 300 win, .338 win, ultramags, shortsmags, weatherbys,etc. your sugestions first hand experience, would be great. Keep in mind shots to 400 yds in clearcuts. Bullet suggestions also. I realize shot placement is most important, but were only human. THANKS CD

Synthetic/stainless .338 with a 22 inch barrel- quality 225 gr bullet

Tracks
Only thing better might be a 375 H&H, but not by much....
Charlie

I would go with a 338 with good 225 gr. bullet, or maybe a 375 with a good 260 to 270 gr. bullet. Then I would plan on spending a lot of time at the range learning the rifle intimately.

Actually, a good 30 cal with the new premium bullets wouldn't be a bad choice either.


Steve

In my opinion you have two different issues here. Thick bush and as you say 400 yards. That is two different guns in reality just about anyway you cut it. The single closest option is a 338 or an improved 338 in my opionion. 400 yards is a bit irresponsible in all but the absolute best and most perfect conditions, and then only for the most expert of shots who can make that with the utmost confidnece and not just "thinking" they can do it because they did it a few times at the range.

If you really limit the distance to acceptable ranges like 300-350 max the choices get better. The 338 is still dandy but the 375HH or 8mm mag, 300HH etc are all good but equally important as the rifle is the other "stuff" that brings everything together. When considering a distance shot of 300 plus yards the scopes integrity is critical. The bullet choice is every bit as important as the cartridge. You're asking for a bullet to hold together at close range in thick bush and yet still wanting it to expand at 350 or more and remain accurate enough to hit your target. That's a tall order!

There are about 1000 things that can happen when shooting over 300 yards and only one is good. When the range gets closer to 1/4 mile the margin for error is very slim and the odds of problems very high. Sure there are plenty of guys who have the skill and patience and have put in the 1000's of shots in all conditions practice to know where their limits are. Those guys don't bother me a bit doing this. It's the guys who shoot only a 100 times a year or less all at the range. Then they go out and start launching bullets hoping for the best.

The biggest struggle your desires are going to require is the 100 yard zero. To be flat enough for a good shot at 400 yards most rifles will require a 4" or more 100 yard POI. With that you will likely be 6" high at 200 yards or something like that depending upon the cartridge and bullet used. That kind of zero is unrealistic for close range shooting. Now you have to calculate the POI for just about any shot you take.

I have had my Leupold scope modified with dual crosshairs for this reason. My weak underpowered old and boring pathetic 30/06 is zeroed for 250 yards. However I have a crosshair in my scope above the standard one which is zeroed at 100 yards. With this my point blank shots are a no brainer, and my 250 yard shots are a dead on hold. Just for sniks and grins my bullets are 5" low at 300 and 11" low at 350 yards. I don't hold in the air EVER so with this arrangement I have an effective max range of 350 yards if and when the very rare perfect conditions come up at an animal that far away. WIth the 11" drop I can hold on the spine at 350 and make a decent shot most every time with the right conditions.

I just recently shot a Whitetail under very poor conditions, windy, near dark, and very cold. Between 250 and 300 yards. The system works well. I would not have taken the shot over 300 yards though as I know the functional limits of my gear and myself. 400 yards may as well been 2000 in that instance, I would not have even tried it.

Lastly calibers under .308 rarely give a blood trail for any distance if at all. From .308 to .338 the blood is OK at best but in my experience with 1000's of game shot .308 is the minimum acceptable big game diameter for a serious all around BIG game hunting rifle.
From .338 to .375 the blood is generally very good and can provide adequate tracking in all but the worst conditions. 375 and above will usually allow plenty of blood and chunks to flow. Again with your needs of flat shooting and point blank crumple power the choice is complicated and really depends more, or at least as much as your skills do.

.300 Ultra with .200 gr bullets. Rem 700 action with all the tricks #4 SS match grade bbl., Bansner stock, pillar bedded and painted with truck bed paint. (indestructable & looks good)
4.5X14 Leup. dotted by premier out to 600 yds. Should weigh about 9.5 lbs all up. Handle anything from mice to moose, from point blank to as far as you can accuratly shoot.

Lefty

Good post JJ. I also like your idea about the double crosshair.

The reason I made the comment about spending more time at the range is that in my experience the more time I spent learning how to shoot at long range, the better I learned my limitations, and the problems that can come into play when attempting 300+ yard shots. Personally, a more specific answer to the above question for me, would be my 338-06, 225 bullets, and I try to keep the range under 300.

I also agree about the blood trail on the larger bores. I threw the 30 cal comment in there because they are a little easier to shoot for many people, even me on some days! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> That's also the beauty of the 338-06. Bigger bullet, less recoil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Steve

Charlie, when someone with your skill and experience agrees with me-MY DAY IS MADE

Recently returned from a Colorado elk trip. I've went with my featerweight winnie model 70 in 30-06 loaded with Hornandy light mags in the past but this year I wanted to step up a bit. My dad has shot .338 win mag for many years now & for many years I had been envious of it's performance on big game. I shopped for a .338 for myself & fell into a smoking hot deal on another magnum caliber. I favor the Winchester model 70's & prefer the looks of a nice walnut stock so I was very interested when I found a new in the box model 70 sporter LT chambered in 300 WBY mag. The price was very good, infact the price allowed me to purchase the rifle & scope it with a Burris 3-9 40 mm balistic plex & still get into the whole package for less than the normal sale price of a bare model 70 sporter LT. After studying the 300 wby & learning that it was developed in the mid 40's & still holds a seat in the honerable mention category of big game magnums... I was willing to give it a try. The balistic plex cross hairs of the burris fullfield 2 gave me the advantage of the customized Leupold that JJHACK talks about. Anyways, I took the new long gun in 300 wby for watching open areas & I also brought along an open sight 450 marlin lever gun in case conditions called for dark timber sneak hunting. The animals were moving like crazy in open areas so the 450 stayed in the case back at base camp. The 300 wby didn't get a chance to prove itself on a long shot (250-300 yds) Instead it saw a 100 yd opportunity. My intent was to use the Fed premium nosler partition in 180 grain as it seemed to have a fairly large fan base out west. I couldn't get them to group for me at the range though. A friend who has shot 300 wby for many years suggested the more afordable lack luster 180 grain rem corelocked. He stated that they grouped the best for him in his lazermark. They grouped very well for me too so that's what I took being a firm believer that shot placement is king above all other things to consider. Anyways, the plain Jane no frills rem corelocked 180 grain did very well. Quartering slightly towards me & walking at a fair pace the 300 wby 180 grain entered the shoulder area & did the job with one shot.
The other guys are talking about 200+ grain bullet weights for the big game & I would agree. 180 just happens to be what I found in the time I had to prepair so it's what I took. Dad used the 225 trophy bonded in his .338. He went through some shells before his was on the ground. He ruined some meat with those big .225 338's but eventually got the job done. Again, shot placement, responsible sensable shots, that's the key. (Easier said than done in the real world) It's best to go with the right tools for the job too though (you won't catch me out west with a 270) You should consider performance requirements first, select potential candidates for your requirements. Then look at history (I'm not sold on the ultra this, super that super ultra short zoom, zoom etc) I guess my first choice would still be the proven 338 win mag although my 300 wby is kind of a cool old hot rod. Shells for the 338 are easier to come by, more factory load bullet combos to choose from and the caliber has established history, the good kind.
Lot's of things to consider, good luck.

CD,

My 300RUM shooting 180 Scirocco's 200 grain Accubonds is a real thumper.

Killed a big bull elk with the 180 @450 and just came back from BC using the 200AB on moose and mtn goat.

Flattened them all.

IMO can't beat the 300RUM.

Tony.

I would like to add a .340Wby or .338 Rum. I have a .340wby currently and it has flattened everything I've ever shot, granted thats only been 6 deer and 1 cow elk. I shoot mostly 225gr Barnes bullets. I've recently purchased a .300Rum and cant wait to get it all together and start shooting it to find out for myself. Good luck

boman,

Get some Retumbo if you are going to shoot 180s or 200s.

Awesome combo in every mine and my pards 300RUMs.

I am shooting 94.0 of Retumbo w/200AB. Also had a good load using RL22 and the 180 Swift Scirocco.

Tony.

I have taken a fair number of elk, bear and mule deer with my 338 Ultra stoked with 210 XLC's and I've never seen ANYTHING that even comes close with consistency! It flat out LEVELS everything in a very impressive fashion!!!!

Is it necessary? Nope! But it is a lot of fun (grin)!!

If you partner a scope with elevation turrets, a good accurate rifle, lots of practice at distance and some common sense, there are few things that'll get away if they give you the time to set your shot up!

muley,

I like your attitude !!!!

Nothing like using enough gun !! I have not used my 338RUM yet. Might have to break it in during doe season........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Tony.

PS : this is coming from someone who's safe is full of rifles chambered with rounds that have magnum in their name !! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am currently shooting a 30-06 and am very impressed with both the hi-energy partistions, and the 180 grn.win.accubonds. Ihave become a hugh 30. cal fan!! I'm sure that my -06 is plenty gun, but I'd hate to lose an animal due to the conditions that I,ve described above! I take a tremedous amount of pride in clean one shot kills, but Given the chance at a trophy of a lifetime I'll take the shot every time out 450-500-550 yards, and with all the time and money invested in my love for the hunt I do not want to be fu*&#$@ around with a weapon,bullet, combo that's simply capable to a mimimun degree. If a mistake is made it's gonna be my own dame fault. I really like what you people say about the .338,300 mags and ultra mags!!!!! Dose anybody own a Savage? Also what about recoil pads, and other recoil reducing ideas? Muzzle brakes?

I'm useing a rem 700 in 300 RUM with a Shepard scope and loading 200gr. accubonds on top of IMR-7828. This rifle along with a range finder and good rest will cover all the clearcuts I hunt at first light and last light but I dont think it is the best all around hunt everything, everywhere in western WA. rifle. I have been serching for the do it all rifle and this 300 RUM was supose to be it but I'm not all that fond of it in the thick brush that I'm chaseing elk in. I'll hunt big open country part of a day and thick dark timber part of the same day and I havent found the ideal rifle for boath. I hate the idea of taking two rifles along and leaving one in the truck but I might start doing just that.

Jamie

CD,

The '06 is certainly an excellent round.

The big boomers do have plenty of performance, however that come with a price........

You have to practice with them in order to learn to manage the recoil they generate.

Good luck.

Tony

I feel your pain � two weeks ago I hunted elk about 30 miles northwest of you. As usual, JJ HACK hit the nail on the head � tree farms give the hunter two completely different scenarios. The rifle/cartridge to handle them well has to smash both near and far, plus be short and light so you can bust enough brush to escape the road hunters. To practice enough to make the long shots, it can�t kick your teeth out or ruin your hearing. I�ve been looking for this combination for a long time. I don�t think it exists, so I made some changes in how I hunt.

First, I gave up shots over about 250 yards. In a tree farm, that�s a LONG way. Second, I scout a lot more. If you scout as much as it takes to find game on tree farms, you�ll find plenty of spots to watch a trail inside of that range. You may even have trouble not being too close. I can still sit on clearcuts at dusk if I choose to, I just can�t shoot into every inch of them. But when I think about it, I never could before, so I haven�t really lost anything.

With this approach, I think adding bullet diameter and better bullets make more sense than more velocity. I shot some feral cattle with Nosler Partitions at 2,350 fps from a 9.3x62 last summer and I was amazed at how fast they hit the ground. Tracking was just not an issue. The 338s and 375s that Tracks and Charlie suggested are great, but I don�t like recoil, so I use a 308 and a 35 Whelen. They don�t shoot as flat as a magnum, but they�re easy to shoot well and they don�t need premium bullets.

Hope this helps, Okie John.

I use a 300 Win Mag and stoke it with either Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX. Were I to hunt any thing larger than moose, I would likely use a bullet heavier than 180 grains. For deer I use the 168 TSX. For Moose, I use the 180 NP. Both shoot to the same point of aim at 100 yards -- 3" high. Both group under an inch at 100. Both have killed game dead enough to eat. My rifle runs a little heavy, but I am a big guy and I don't run when I am hunting, so it's no big deal.

The 338 Mags are nice, but the bigger bullets fly like a 30-06 180, so that is a little arched for the long stuff. I am with JJ. Learn your limitations -- stay within your abilities. Get the rifle that you can shoot well. I think most guys can't hit game much past 300 yards with any regularity anyway, and the ones that think they can are likely over-estimating the range they are shooting at.

I'm not saying it can't be done, it can. It just usually isn't like it is reported. Now, whoever shot the cow elk at 450 yards - good shooting. If you can do that consistently day in and day out - my hat is off to you. I don't think I can, so I don't.

Hunting ethics involves knowing what you can and cannot do everytime you squeeze the trigger, but it has to be known, BEFORE you squeeze the trigger. my .02

Tony -- <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!

I never claimed to have much sense (grin). Here is the advantage of a heavy kicker: If you learn to manage the recoil, you have a hell of a thumper on your hands. Whether you do or you don't, when you step back down, everything else will seem mild in comparison!!!!!

My 7.5 pound 7mm saum is now a kitten in comparison, even with heavy bullets <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />!!!

* Caliber- 300 win mag,
will do it near or far in a 24" barrel (0-500) - a Weatherby or Ultra mag needs a 26" barrel to significantly beat it and the 24" is better for the woods,
decent barrel life and manageable recoil with a good pad (without a brake)-- not so apt to split a wood stock (if that is your preference)
readily available ammo,
very accurate,
will shoot flatter than a 338 for the long shots unless you go to the 340 Weartherby or 338 Ultra which are not conducive to good prone shooting because of the recoil

*Bullet - 200 grain Nosler Partition
accurate in most rifles,
will handle near or far shooting for both rapid expansion and deep penetration,
Is still one of the best all-round bullets for consistent performance on all types of game, is readily available and reasonably priced, and has a high BC

* In a model 70 this would be a great classic

.300RUM is the ticket for flat out thumping down range. The only problem (and I own a .300RUM) is that it thumps you back!!!

It ain't so much the thumping - it's the recovery that's important.

Pick your shots/times/conditions.

I hunt moose under your described conditions, with a .338, using either 225 or 250 gr. bullets. I'm prepared to shoot to 500 yards. Longest shot to date, over about 30 years, has been about 160, about 25 bulls, all calibers). Average shot is about 60 yards. Favorite shots are anything under 100, where I usually thump them in the neck bone, or spine further back.

I don't really need a .338 for this, but it doesn't hurt, especially in brown bear country. If I ever do accept a 300-500 yard shot, the rifle has the juice. I won't be shooting for spine, tho.

Out to 300 yards I would use a 35 Whelen. 225 or 250 grain should do the job.

You're conditions sound as if they mimic mine. I'd go with a .338 Win. mag & a 1.5-5x Leupold Vari-x III. Then stoke it with a good quality bullet/load. I've gone to 225 gr. Northforks with Rl-22 rather than use Nosler Partitions mainly because the Northforks are more accurate for me. Use whatever floats your boat though. Good luck, Bear in Fairbanks

hey, I'm totally digging all the replys! please keep them coming. What about a 300 wsm?

hey, I'm totally digging all the replys! please keep them coming. What about a 300 wsm? thanks CD

I dig the heck out of my .300 saum. It's a dandy but when it comes to "laying down the smack" it doesn't come close to rivaling the 338 ultra! It certainly "kills" them just as well though....

I've seen and admired the way the .338 whacks Elk. It sounds like the s*#t you need.

In closer the .45-70 belts the snot out of them but I guess it isn't polite to mention this round in SUCKSland...... DOH!!!

Funny how most of the hunters I know who've killed a bargeload of game have gone back to the bigbore leverguns to make it more challenging.

good luck! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

i personally dont care for the .300wsm . for what your talking about the .300 win a good round with a proven past .then you got the .300wby and .300rum and the .30-378 and that would be the king of those rounds . then you have the the .338win and the 338rum , 340wby , 338-378wby .

if you got the $$ go for one of the weatherby mags .... 30-378 would be my choice but there is still the 340 338-378 if you want a 33 caliber.

if you dont got the $$ for the weatherby ammo go for one of the other rounds mentioned if that is the case i like the 300rum or 338win . your choice they are all badass rounds .

hope this helps , no flames intended

I am with Lass and Bear on this one. I use a .338WM, but hey, most Alaskan hunters have a .338WM. I try to limit my shots on moose and 250-grain bullets to not more than 300 yards, but this year I dropped one at 325 with a Federal 250-grain NOS-HE. That .30-06 trajectory with 250-grain bullets is what makes the .338 great (-7" to -9" at 300 yards with a 250 grainer).

JJ made a lot of sense with his answers, since he put all the hunting conditions one may encounter in one package that is easy to agree with.

Creepingdeath,

You seem to be leaning towards a fast .30 but if you really want something for "flat out laying down the smack" then think bigger. See Charlie Sisk's post again. I agree with him. A Win Classic Stainless in .375 H&H is as good as it gets.

Muley,

Do you still have a video copy of that black bear Big Stick put me on a couple years back? I always thought that reaction, to getting hit with a .416" 370gr North Fork put the 'flop' in 'bang-flop'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Course a 416 Taylor is no 400 yard cartridge...

I have a habit of wanting to use something a little bit different from the usual, so I would look for an 8mm Mag, or at the least, a 300 Weatherby.

I've used 300 Winchester and 300 Wby's with great success. I love them both! They have made some spectacular kills for me. I've never lost an animal with either. The 338 is a fine round, too but not as flat shooting. I've had several and they kill great, too.

The gun I'm tinkering with now is a Sako 995 in Lazzeroni's 7.82 Warbird. It's a very fast 30 caliber despite the 7.82 moniker. I believe Lazzeroni is not making/buying any more from Sako but I could be wrong. They don't show them on their website and I don't know if Sako is or legally can make that chambering with out the OK from Lazzeroni. If you want very flat with extreme smack that's a caliber to look at. Brass and dies are stupidly expensive so keep that in mind.

Another thing to keep in mind is recoil. Not many guys can shoot even a 300 WBY accurately due to recoil. If you can, great! But no matter what you get for a caliber, if you flinch with it, you have to conquer it or trade down.

Sako TRG-S in 340 wby shooting 185 or 225 xlc's nice gun that shoots great.

Anything .338 or bigger should do it. Weatherbys work well. If you're shooting factory stuff, it should be possible to find ammo for any .375H&H which, properly loaded will do any job you ask of it in the scenarios you've described above. If you reload and don't mind trying a wildcat, the .358 STA will do perfectly fine. Brass and/or loaded rounds for that caliber is available from Quality Cartridge, in Maryland.

BW, yep! I had a similar one the next year up with Stick when i was toting my ultra. Same general scenario though I think mine had just a touch more whiplash motion to it (grin).

BTW Brian, PM me your address. Assuming you have a way of watching DVD's? If so, I have a couple to send to you....

Scott

I use a 308 narma mag but i would suggest 300 rem ultra mag my 2 hunting partners use the rem mod 700 300ultra mag and we shoot deer as far out as 700 yrds one of us is an execelent shot but it is not me i stick to withen 450 yrds we hunt nuisance deer

I've shot a lot of the big mags but only one on game - the .340 Wby. It's not always the answer in terms of weight although mine isn't too heavy nor recoil. Like the others mentioned it takes learnin to shoot but shoot it does. Mine is on a Sucks action put up by shilen and while not a tack driver does under 1.5 inches with its best load but also better than that at 400 yds I might add which is what I regularly practice to. Ross S. long ago wrote it flys as flat a 7mm Rem Mag and hits like a .375. While that's true of more than the .340 now, it certainly still true of the .340. PM me for some details if you wish.

GDV

If I was looking for a round that would make a wound channel I could drive through, and leave a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could track, I'd choose a 416 Rigby mag pushing 325-350 gr bullets ~2800 fps. Now I don't think most folks can shoot such a rig as accurately as a smaller one though.

Now back to reality, no amount of power makes up for poor shot placement, or allows you to take shots you shouldn't. A 30 cal will kill any NA game, every time, so long as you place the bullet where it needs to go. Bigger cals can break down more bone, and allow for more consistant blood trails, but they don't negate the most fundimental tenant of hunting which is, know where to put the bullet, and put the bullet there. If conditions are such that you can't make that happen, hold off.