The other thread got me thinking, so I have a question:

Not wanting to start an argument, but asking a legitimate question to those with experience. It seems that many on here detest the SST and many sing the praises of the VLD.

Why the love for Bergers and the hatred for Hornady SST? I've never used a Berger, but have extensive experience with SST's of the 150 gr, 30 cal variety and the 154 gr, 7mm version and a little with the 139 gr, 7mm version on white-tailed deer. In my experience, they do exactly what many on here describe as the ideal performance by making jello of the entire chest cavity. I've personally killed +/-75 deer with a 30-06 SST and have helped drag, load, and skin another 200 deer shot with a 7mmRM SST. These range from 100-275 lbs and from point blank to 400+ yards.

I have seen many, many times when a simple lung shot dumped the deer like it had a semi-truck dropped on it. In fact, I would say dropping in their tracks is more of the rule than the exception when you make any kind of decent center mass shot from about any angle.

The SST probably wouldn't be my first choice for elk or moose, but they sure do a great job on deer in my experience. According to many on this forum, they explode on contact and can't penetrate a deer's shoulder. My experience says they can break 2 shoulders pretty easily and do a lot of damage in between. I would estimate that I had exit holes on 50-70% of the deer that I shot with them. I don't recall a deer ever going far with even a decent shot.

All that being said, I semi-retired the '06 about 5 seasons ago and have been using a 7mm-08 with 120 TTSX more recently which is complete opposite in performance, but shot placement trumps all.

If the SST's are working well for you then I'd keep using them. If I were to use them I'd just make sure I stayed away from bone if I could help it.

I held a little high on a pronghorn one time with a 117-grain SST from my .257 AI, and hit the shoulder and spine. The range was a little over 300 yards. Had to discard pretty much the entire front end. My wife hit a desert mule deer in the shoulder with a 140-grain SST from her .280 at about 125 yards. The end result was much the same.

However, those 117-grain SSTs would sure turn a coyote inside out!

ssts in a 270 for a buddies dad showed a bit of erratic performance. In 130 for 270 Win. Moved to 150s and it was better.

But then realized there was a 95 ttsx and life went right to perfection.

country_20boy,

The Berger Hunting VLD's and Hornady SST's do not perform exactly the same way.

MOST expanding bullets, including SST's, start to expand as soon as they hit hide, normally fully expanding before they penetrate their own length. This is why the meat around the entrance hole tends to be very damaged, especially with plastic-tipped, lead-cored bullets that expand violently. The area behind the entrance hole is also damaged, the reason you see so much interior damage from SST's.

Berger's, and a few other bullets with very long, tapered points that have tiny or even closed hollow-points, normally penetrate a couple of inches before expanding--but when they do expand, they expand even more violently than SST's. In fact it's rare to recover a Berger that looks the like conventional "mushroom" many hunters expect, except sometimes at longer ranges. Instead they typically fragment.

The entrance hole is normally very small, often so tiny that I've often had to part the hair to find it, but the exit hole (if the bullet exits) is typically much larger than from expanding bullets like SST's. They also tend to drop animals very quickly, due to the massive damage inside the chest.

Also, Berger's have considerably higher ballistic coefficients than SST's. This doesn't matter much at the ranges most hunters shoot, but does at longer ranges, where they drift noticeably less in the wind.

Scenars are a good alternative to Bergers.... and SST's

I will not shoot Berger hunting VLDs at critters anymore, they dont kill fast enough. I am shooting SSTs again as I shot them for almost 10 years with instant kills. Drank the VLD cool aid this year and I hated the taste.

^ My experience is 180 out. I'll NEVER use a SST as a hunting bullet again. 2 of my bolt rifle are set up to shoot Bergers exclusively.

Jeremybj,

Exactly which Berger VLD's have you used, on how many animals?

I'm not wanting to start an argument, but am very curious, because my experience on quite a few animals is exactly the opposite.

I've shot eleven NC whitetails with the 6.5 130 vld and .243 87 gr VLD out of a Creedmoor and a .243. Ten have dropped in their tracks and one has run about thirty yards. Most have not produced an exit but the three that did produced fist size exits.

I was hesitant about shooting them at first, but they've made a believer out of me. The .243 kills were running in front of hounds, they weren't standing still perfect shot opportunities.

Thanks for the detailed response. I would still assume that for 99% of hunting situations, the results would be the same with either bullet, all else being equal. Both would result in a very dead critter with a very messy chest cavity and some amount of bloodshot meat.

Obviously shot placement trumps all.

The 168 Berger VLD out of a 308 has been a quick killer of deer and hogs at my camp.

The reason I asked Jeremybj exactly which Berger VLD he used was because I've run into quite a few hunters who for some reason didn't use the Hunting VLD's--the model that kills so quickly. Instead they used the Target VLD's, which have a thicker jacket, so don't do nearly as much internal damage.

Some hunters deliberately use the Target VLD's, which also work but don't provide the quicker kills of the Hunting VLD's. They prefer (or believe they should prefer) the "tougher" version.

But some simply don't know there's a difference. They've heard about Berger VLD's on game, so buy a box--which may be the Target bullets, which come in yellow boxes. The Hunting version comes in orange boxes.

I have had excellent on game performance with 6mm berger hybrid target bullets.(105s)

I hear you.

The ones my friend and I loaded for his 308 were old yellow box versions that would now be in the orange hunting bullet boxes. At the time he bought his stash the stiffened jacket target versions had not yet appeared.

Yeah, I still have some of the older yellow-box VLD's that are identical to the newer orange-box Hunting VLD's. But I don't even take photos of the older bullets and boxes for articles, to avoid confusing shooters. The older version was called "Match Grade" rather than "Target."

In my limited observations of match bullets on game, terminal performance is more eradicate in the form of almost bullet blow up to little expansion till well into animal creating the large exits.... But by golly, that load could trim the third hair down on a gnats ball sack on the left side though

The SST for me has always been like you stated, I've never had one blow up on entrance but that is where the destruction starts. The accuracy of the sst bullet is one hole, maybe slightly larger than the diameter of the bullet. But that tends to happen when multiple shots pass threw the same hole taking some of the 'fuz' from around the bullet hole.

I had one 162 7mm sst bust both shoulders of a 200 lb black bear 20-ish yards away leaving the muzzle a little over 2800 fps with my .280. At the shot, the bear just folded and rolled down into the creek. I found the bullet under the hide on the opposite side but instead of a lead core in the jacket, it was bone. The lead core and some scapula traded places. Yep, destruction was vast but a bear that close unexpectedly was not planed and the hyper-expanding bullet did very well.

I would guess this might come as a suprise, but "match" bullets vary considerably in construction, so it's no wonder some act differently when they hit game.

Yes,very greatly they do

I cannot predict in real hunting situations how game will be positioned, range and so forth. I can greatly predict how a bullet will perform though.

Amen.

Bob,

My point was that "hunting" bullets also vary considerably in construction, so all "hunting" bullets don't act the same way either. And no, not all "hunting" bullets always act exactly the same way, even if they're the same brand and type.

Deliberate.230 OTM. Bergers kill, fast.

SST and Berger aren't even in the same category (last statement not directed at Mule Deer, I'm sure he's aware)

VLD or SST?

Easy choice for me. Neither.

Barnes TTSX, yes.
Nosler AccuBond, yes.
Nosler Partition, yes.
North Fork SS, yes.
Speer Grand Slam, yes.

Love that pic rosco.

I'm going to solid carbide with copper driving bands. Deer around here are pretty tough.

I"ll toss a bit of input in. I ran the yellow box, assumign I was running target, but then JB explained all that to me.

I tried a new box of "target" ones a few years ago as I was happy with what yellow box 185s did out of my 26 inch 308. Pencil in, nickel or so out, destruction inside, dead. Actually dang near exactly what TTSX have been doing perfectly for years now. But a better BC for my longer shots... I use the 308 way on out there on deer if I have the need to.( and why I have a 257 wtby is beyond me... lol)

So move forward to the new target box... I did NOT want more destruction that I thought I'd get from the hunting version...

Shot 2 spikes, around 350 yards... could not find either. Was not happy. Chip shots that were on the money when the shots broke.(prior to owning a dog...)

Anyway was shooting up what was left of the old yellow box at that point. And ordered an orange box.

I have not shot the orange box on but a couple of deer, and all has been well.

This past season, shot the old yellow box and had 2 shots, that were ribs only, that left horrible exit holes... I have NO clue why after probably over 100 animals, all of a sudden 2 did this, in a row... It is what it is. The orange box amazed me, they have more or less mirrored what the yellow ones have been doing.

This fall I had all these target ones loaded, so I shot 2 more deer with them. Pencil in, maybe dime/nickel max out. Deer ran about twice as far as with the hunting versions, but none hit more than 80 yards or so and I've had the hunting ones run that far at times...

Target ones internal damage was less, more like damage of nickel size through the lungs and then smaller frags through the lobes...

I'd not hesitate to use targets again, I like less damage by far. And thats my choice and since they all die it doesn't matter.

But lets get back to the first use of the target.... the 2 spikes not found.... I was about to shoot at a decent 10 2 years ago. Had him bedded at just under 600.... And for some reason I just decided to go home and shoot the gun... found out elevation had quit working. Which explained the spikes, Id' shot under them easily with a 100 yard zero on the gun....

My next goal is try the hunting 215s in the 308 and see if I can end up between the target and hunting versions of 185s damage wise.

I've yet to see any failures on the bergers.

Encased in a sabot out of a 125mm smooth-bore?

Interesting that SSTs could be setting bench rest championship accuracy records. I suspect they are cheaper than match bullets. I"ll remember that if I ever get back to competition.

RE match target bullets. I've never seen one pencil through, pencil in yes, but every last animal we've ever shot with a match bullet has died(save for the two I thought I hit but ended up missing in the above post)

I'll never hesitate if thats all that happened to be handy.

In fact I carry 75 bthps in the AR mags here, since I"ve got thousands loaded, and they've shot everything from deer, to pigs, javelina, coyotes etc... without a single failure. Granted in 223 I've not, using those bullets, shot much past about 300 yards or so on game.

i 'm looking for depleted uranium myself

This topic is yet another example of why the internet and forums like this one have become more interesting than the magazines and books which is all we had before.

Nosler or Barnes, Sierras are great too!