... For big game hunting in the lower 48, choose any caliber 243 and above?

Can't think of a time....

Uh-- never

at 300 yards with a .243 if you want an exit hole.

Never. Best all time, Bear claws only thing that might be equal on game.

Agree with others....never.

Never. That's why they're my all-around favorite bullet.

T-Rex, Triceratops, Carnosaur, ........

When the shooter is not up to the task at hand!!!!

How are are the partitions at longer ranges? I assume he accubond was introduced to fill that niche?

NEVER...

If a Partition in the gun you're shooting isn't enough, you need a bigger gun.

California.

David

"Inadequate" and "outlawed in a liberal stronghold" are not the same.

Haven't found a time or place, yet. I'll keep looking though.

10 mph variable winds with the biggest buck you've ever seen at 526 yards out with zero chance of getting closer.

Stunt shooter....

It's only inadequate when you can't hit the target.

Kind of the same scenario I was thinking about.

There's a lot of guys who will whine about the partition not being sleek enough and not having a high enough BC but out to 500 yards it doesn't much matter In my opinion. And if I can't get any closer that's on me. I've used the entire spectrum in 7mm and 30 cal. And a variety in other calibers. I have yet to be disappointed.

Sounds like more of an ethics decision than one of bullet choice.

I started to say, big bull bison, but then I remembered that I had killed one of the biggest bulls that I have ever seen--with my .30-06 and a 180-grain Partition. One shot. A long time ago.

The only time I can think of is the calibers they don't make.

Like .311" and 348" .423"

I have a 6.5X54 mann/scho that needs 160 gr round nose bullets to feed well. They don't make bullets for my 404 Jeffery or my 348 Winchester. . So I don't use Noslers, because they don't make what I need for those rifles.

But for the sizes they do make they are the gold Standard in my opinion.

I know of no other bullet that expands well at 1400 FPS and still holds enough weight at 3000 to punch deep.

Some others will retain more weight but don't open up at speeds lower then 1900. I like Barnes for hunting at close range and out to about 400 yards, but beyond that the bullets don't open up well. Same with Swifts.

Both Swift and Barnes will retain more weight, but that's not an issue if the Partitions are exiting the game. (Which they do in the guns and bullet weights I use)The idea of retaining weight is for penetration. If you have 100% penetration, more weight is just theoretically an advantage, but not a real advantage.

Funny, Sad, and True all in one Word. Oh and I'll add F'd up.

One of my PH's in Africa did not care for them on large game. He told me about a rodeo with a giraffe that I believe took 16 300 grain .375 partitions. I suspect some bad shooting was involved but the PH said it was due to the lack of straight line penetration.

I have never heard anyone else talk of this. With my own use I have noticed that especially at close ranges and high velocity that the front end would get lopsided sometimes and the shank was so short they did not penetrate as straight as a mono bullet would have. Still they worked well and dropped the animals quickly.

I would have no problem using them on everything but would probably go mono on really big game where penetration is in feet instead of inches.

I'll stick my neck out and say that was some poor shooting.

When it comes to partitions, the only disadvantage is the wind thing. Certainly better bullets for 500 on out was my point.

Did somebody bump an old thread?

I wouldn't judge the PT's without first seeing some good photos showing the bullet holes.

The giraffe and the hypothetical 500 yd. shot in wind are both addressed by the above statement..........

A Partition is never not adequate.

Dogger: I have been using Nosler Partitions VERY successfully for going on 58 years now and I have yet to find any reason to be dissatisfied or even be tempted to try anything else.
I have used them from Alaska and Alberta on down through Utah and Wyoming taking all manner of Big game with them.
In the "lower 48" specifically I have used them in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana and Utah.
Hoping to add Caribou to my already long list of Big Game successfully harvested with Nosler Partitions.
Long live Nosler Partitions.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

yeah, i started this thread to answer what in my gut i already knew - the bullet is more important than the caliber or the head stamp, provided I keep it reasonable (243 and above). Bigger diameters make sense in certain situations... for example hunting black bear (fat can plug the hole and leave a poor blood trail)...

I am really trying to talk myself into leaving the 7mms and 30s in the safe and use a .25 for an all-arounder for anything not in thick cover (where I could lose the blood trail). I suppose the smaller diameter rifles work well until they don't.

If you can't hit at that range with a Partition, nothing else is going to help you. A few inches of drift is well within a seasoned riflemans ability to compensate.

Just a thought...

I've found that the heavy fur coat on black bears were as much to blame as the fat was. Lately I've been hunting with hounds so not so much of an issue.

The partition is the bullet that all the others claim to be, but as someone said, the Bear Claws might be right.

Dang, you beat me to it........

Casey

Moderate expansion, deep penetration--that's the "secret" to killing deer size critters and up.

The other strength of the NPT is it performs the most consistently across the widest range of velocities of any bullets I've observed.

There are other excellent bullets out there though.


Casey

Unfortunately you're right. The days of lead core bullets are probably numbered. Colorado is now "encouraging" hunters to use copper bullets. And at some point we will probably see lead core bullets prohibited on federal lands.


Casey

Dogger,

I've taken at least 24 species of big game with Partitions, from springbok and pronghorn to eland, moose and Cape buffalo, and they haven't "failed" yet.

Among those have been a bunch of animals with .25-caliber Partitions, including my biggest whitetail and several of my bigger mule deer. Also used the 100-grain on my longest shot on a pronghorn buck, and on a hunt in 2012 one of my hunting partners took a good 6-point bull elk with his .257 Weatherby and one 120-grain Partition, which exited.

The NP is not adequate if for some reason you rifle does not deliver good accuracy with it. Other than that, its as adequate as a 30-06 for 99% of hunting demands.

A seasoned rifleman never misses on the internet.

Lame.

Playing devil's advocate on a long-ish shot with a crap bc bullet.

Wind starts doing crazy schidt and I'd be wishing I had something else.

My .270 load with a 130 Partition drifts 21.6" in the wind at 500 yards in a 10mph crosswind. That's enough to make me uncomfortable but I aint a seasoned rifleman so...

I would also say the only weakness would be for a longish shot relative to other proven bullets, especially in the wind.

Some of you guys that don't hunt much out west, especially those who don't get to hunt mule deer and especially coues deer much just don't understand the shots sometimes you are forced to take (or pass) that have nothing to do with hunter skill but with terrain, cover, and the critter involved.

The choice to shoot or not and the risk factor involved is determined by the wind and the distance and the individual rifleman. Having less wind drift and a flatter trajectory reduces shot risk and increases the kill range which increases shot opportunities hunting wide open spaces. This is just a fact.

I have shot quite a few things with a Partition. It's a great bullet that will do all that 99% of us could ever need.

But for the reasons above, I shoot different bullets for where and how I hunt.

I don't know, but does mr.Shoemaker use NP in his .458win for stopping bear in the alders?
or does he choose to trust his life to another brand?

In 10 years of shooting AB's and PT's in a 300 WSM, I found 2 things. AB's are much more accurate in this rifle. AB's destroy a lot more meat.

interesting observation on meat damage...

The point was the above stated "526 yard shot" which the poster that made the comment feels is a limiter for a Partition in wind. I just frankly disagree with that. At that range, comparing an equal weight/speed ballistic tip to a partition, the difference in drift between the two will be around 4 inches. If you can't compensate for that you shouldn't be shooting at that distance, because regardless both are going to be way off target in, say, a 10 mph cross wind.

I've shot plenty at range in wind, and inside of 550 yards (which is pretty much absolute max I'd shoot at an animal) the ability to adjust a few extra inches isn't a deal killer.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot an animal in a 10 mph cross wind at 526 yards anyway. Farthest I've shot a critter was a bedded antelope at 548 yards, ironically, with a 180 Partition. There was no way to get closer, and the wind was blowing directly at me. I had plenty of time, knew the rifle, and could get a solid "nest." One shot kill. But it's generally possible to get closer. Much closer, which to me is what hunting is all about. But that's a separate discussion...

It's elemental, actually. A PT is made for the tip to expand and the base is made to hold together and give deep penetration. An AB is made to explode. The plastic tip is driven down the center of the lead and forces it apart. It opens up much faster than a PT.

The AB is made to mimic the expansion of a partition in a bonded bullet with a higher BC. I my experience, that is pretty much what they do. I have used them to shoot just about every big game animal that I have killed for quite a few years now--elk, deer and pronghorns here in the USA, and plains game up to the size of eland in Africa . I have never experienced the explosive expansion to which you continue to refer.

It is a well-known fact that a few runs of ABs fairly early on were not made to specs, thanks to a Nosler employee who made unauthorized alterations to the manufacturing process in an attempt to speed things up. Once the problem was identified and rectified, the problems disappeared.

mudhen, those must have been the ones where the plastic tips fell off. I had a bunch of those when they first came out. They pissed me off and I swore I'd never try them again. They never shot as well as partitions either... I finally gave up on them...

The thread is about the inadequacies of the Partition. I mentioned an inadequacy which for most of hunters including you Brad it's obviously not an issue.

We are not discussing how or where people hunt or how far they feel comfortable shooting or the magic line between where hunting turns to shooting. All these things vary.

All bullets have weaknesses and all are a give or take, just like every one of our gear choices that we each personally make.

You are correct. Those runs were the ones in which many of the plastic tips fell off. I had one or two boxes like that and elected not to shoot them at game, mostly for cosmetic reasons.

Thanks mudhen. Maybe I'll give them a try again. I've heard the AB likes to be backed off the lands more than the partition as well. The sub par accuracy was probably my fault, since I ran them close to the lands, like I do with the partitions....

Rock Chuck,

No, the plastic tip of AccuBonds (or any other plastic-tipped bullet) doesn't not get driven down into the center of the lead. Slow-motion video of plastic-tipped bullets expanding in clear ballistic gelation shows the plastic tips drifting ahead of the expanding bullet, and then getting pushed off to the side. They expand just like non-tipped bullets.

AccuBonds are constructed to lose about the same amount of weight than Partitions, so don't shred any more meat. There's no reason they should. And like Partitions, the AccuBonds over .30 caliber are designed to retain more weight.

Over the years the Partitions under .30 that I've recovered have averaged 62.4% weight retention, and the under-.30 AccuBonds 67.2%. The over-.30 Partitions have averaged 86.3%, and over-.30 AccuBonds 78.6%.

Higbean,

While Partitions wouldn't be my first choice for shooting much past 500 yards at anything, the 200-grain .30 isn't too bad. Bryan Litz's range-tested data gives it a G1 BC of right around .500 for velocities from 3000 fps down to 2000 fps, very close to the BC Nosler lists. When started at 3000 fps velocity at 500 is still over 2300 in typical Montana hunting conditions, and wind-drift isn't too bad at all--one reason I've used it considerably in the .300 Winchester and .300 Weatherby, where of course it also works great close-up.

Litz's G7 BC is .249 across all velocities from 3000 down to 1500, again not too bad.

True, but for the sake of argument the BT is not a high BC bullet.

Guess I'm a backwards person,I only care about the bullet penetrating and expanding.

Mule Deer has written that the plastic tip generally doesn't drive down the middle, but rather veers off to the side. The expansion is driven by the big hollow point the tip rides in. My only recovered plastic tip, from of all things a Barnes 290gr ML bullet, bears this out. It was recovered under the shoulder blade a good ways from the bullet, which lodged in the spine between the shoulders (frontal shot from above). Of cours, stuff happens, and almost anything can happen once.

Unless it's on a rabbit in which case 'hydraulic displacement' is the ballistic mechanism of choice.

True. But even a high BC bullet will be off target at 526 yards in a 10mph side wind. You learn your bullet, what ever the bullet, and have to compensate. The rifleman makes the rifle, not the reverse. And I'd still rather learn the drift of a Partition than put my faith in a tinfoil bullet. But that's me. Still, I'm not shooting game, any game, in hard wind at range. Is a Partition a 1000 yard target bullet? No. But I also have little respect for anyone that shoots game at the distances where a high BC bullet has to enter into the discussion. Targets are one thing, big game another.

Well, guess you don't respect a lot of folks then Brad who by the way are really really good hunters, they just are different from how you see your little slice of elk woods and go about your business. Just a silly moral superiority thing you seem to have, sometimes called an elitest attitude.

The most common element in your posts Brad as I peruse 24HC that seem to be commonplace with you is when you let your emotional attachment to things cause you to start your passive-aggressive little barbs which leads you to lecture us all on Brad's rules of personal conduct while hunting or going about life.

It was a bullet discussion. Don't turn it into something else. Start a thread on Berger's discussing their limitations. I'll chime right in...

My assumption is that the .30 caliber Partitions and Accubonds behave like the over .30 bullets with higher percentage of weight retention?

No, the .30 calibers are designed to retain the same percentage of weight as bullets under .30, averaging somewhere in the 65% range.

Lame.

Thanks John, is there any difference in percentage weight retention between the 180 and 200 partition?

Talk about reading something into something that isn't there. You're obviously too thin skinned to have an honest and open exchange of ideas and PERSONAL preference.

They are good Bullets. I kinda went back and forth for years but the last 5 years have seen a lot of ABs in camp. They work and yup, they want some jump.

No, they retain about the same percentage. Or at least they do in "media." I've never recovered a 200 from an animal, but have recovered several 180's. Did have one 200 stay in an elk, but it was a lengthwise shot and never found it, though from the wound channel knew it penetrated at least 4 feet.

Once put a 200 into the big shoulder joint of a 6-point bull standing quartering to me 75 yards away. It broke the shoulder, went through the chest cavity, and exited at the rear of the ribcage on the far side.

I know, I've seen your targets posted on the Nosler site. Thanks again Scotty...

Partly true. A good rifleman can compensate for a crappy rifle or a subpar bullet, but then again he normally won't have to because you seldom see a good rifleman using either one. One thing a good rifleman always does is optimize his rifle and ammo. Besides, we're talking about bullets, not rifles.



IMO for smallish game like Coues or pronghorns at longish distances, placement is more important than using a "premium" bullet. For a shot like that, IMO it's best to use the bullet you've been banging steel with all year than to think you need a "premium."

There are some pretty good hunters here who regularly kill game with those tinfoil bullets.

I agree with that, but I'm speaking for myself and what I hunt... I just don't believe tinfoil bullets have any place place on elk. Should have made that more clear.

Correct. Nosler tip inserts are in part specifically designed to initiate expansion by splaying the forward section.

The inserts have a conical/wedge shaped design mid-section to facilitate the process.




Well someone better call Nosler and tell them they are wrong. The tips part company only after they have been driven
back some to initiate expansion. Then as expansion continues, material that once secured the tip in place will move away
and release the tip.

No sir, it's not.

Which "tinfoil" bullets have you used on elk Brad? What experiences have led you to have such a negative opinion of their performance?

David

What I have seen leads me to believe that for my type of hunting those tinfoil bullets will do just fine. Shot and killed a few things with partitions, those are really nice though for most guys. Really nice.

If I understand Nosler's statement on their NAB, they were designed to have terminal performance much like the NPT, but with a sleeker shape, better B.C.'s for LR shooting.

And, when JG speaks about NAB's, listen. It's not theory...

DF

I have had two instances where Nosler Combined Technology slugs (partitions) hit a rib going in on elk and never touched the far side of the body cavity. Both were 30 caliber 180 grainers starting out at about 3,400+ ft per sec from a Weatherby 30-378. I think that's just a bit too fast for that construction. Both bulls died within a few feet shortly there after, so I can't say they were inadequate.

Isn't the Combined Technology bullet essentially a black NBT with a silver tip, not a Partition?

IME, it's an art matching velocity with bullet construction. A great bullet at 2,800 fps, may be a terrible bullet at 3,400 fps.

DF

There was also a Combined Technology Partition Gold for a little while, with a little steel cap on top of the rear core like the Fail Safe.

Don't recall using Partitions driven any faster than 3300 fps in any rifle, but never have had a problem. As mentioned earlier, a hunting partner used a .257 Weatherby with 120 Partitions to kill a good 6-point bull elk in 2012. The range was about 150 yards and the bullet went broadside through the ribs and exited. He used Weatherby factory ammo, and the 120 load is listed at 3305 fps.

A good friend here in my little town used 130 Partitions handloaded to 3400 fps in his .270 Weatherby for several years. They worked fine, but when AccuBonds came out he switched to them, because they shot more accurately in his rifle. He's used them on a number of animals, including his biggest bull elk, taken with a frontal shot.

All of that, plus we have to figure how much a crosswind will "knock down" the trajectory of a bullet.

By the time a guy does all of those calculations the critter has done given birth to the next generation........

Casey

My experience with partitions is limited mostly to the rifle range as I have almost always (one instance) had much better accuracy with other bullets.

Before I went to Africa I compared 180gr NP, GMX, TTSX, plus a 200gr NP. The NP's could not group with the monometals.

I know this thread is about NA animals, but I have had the same results with the 130/150/160gr out my 270's. Just not as accurate as I would like.

The exception was a 210gr NP out of a 338-06. It shot just as well as the 200gr Interlocks and to the exact same point of aim. I could mix the two loads and get sub 1 inch groups.

I prefer not to use NP's because of the accuracy issue I have encountered. Not horrible accuracy, just not as good as other bullets.

But I do not doubt their effectiveness having using the 210gr NP on a couple of elk and a few deer.

Three years ago a youngster with a 270 and 150gr NPt shot a cow broadside in the armpit at about 50 yds. Bullet passed clear through and the cow folded immediately without taking a step.

Two days later I shot a trotting cow in the armpit slightly quartering away at 30 yds with a 270 and 150 NPt--twice. Neither bullet exited but she died within 30 yds of the first shot. I found both bullets against the off side hide. I handloaded for both rifles and the bullets were from the same bag.

One can't always predict the performance of the bullet or the reaction of the critter.

Casey

With a few exceptions, my experience with NPt's is they don't group as small as other--accurate-- bullets. An example is NBT's may group 3 shots at 3/4", Npt's from the same rifle may do 1". But once I reach a threshold of accuracy, bullet construction becomes more important.

Casey

On the other hand, some guns shoot Partitions best of all.

I have a .240 HS SPL that prefers 100 gr. NPT's over MRP, half MOA at 400 yds.

No regrets when that happens.

DF

What ingwe said..

Oh come on...

Why don't you expound on your "open exchange of ideas and personal preference" backtrack that hunters that consider BC in a hunting bullet you have no respect for...

Hell of an ignorant statement...

[quote=alpinecrick] ..But once I reach a threshold of accuracy, bullet construction becomes more important.

On the subject of thresholds, people have different and often multiple ones -
accuracy,down range vel-energy, drift, drop, penetration, exit holes, meat damage,etc
there are bullets today that improve on some of those things over a NP.

Nosler would not be offering designs like the LR-ABs if that wasn't the case.

What I actually wrote (not what you "think" I said) was I have "little" (not "no" as you say) respect for hunters shooting game at ranges where BC means something (which for me is past 600 yards). I've stated I think bullet construction is something to be more concerned about than BC on game. If you think BC is a deal breaker inside 600 yards (I've stated I don't), fine. That's an extension of the discussion. You could have asked for clarification, but instead chose to get your feelers hurt and launch a personal attack. Not everyone is required (as apparently you think) to buy into group-think when it comes to this sport.

Brad makes some good points.

B.C. is of more concern to a LR shooter fighting cross winds, not so much for the typical big game hunter, most shots under 400 yds and closer.

Terminal performance is a much bigger issue. IMO, it's an art, matching velocity with bullet construction for optimal effect.

DF

Amen DF. This is a big deal to me, as we have killed big mule deer at 30 yds, and at 450 yds. We never know. I want a bullet that performs as advertised in both circumstances. I've found AB's and partitions do exactly that.

Yeah, I thought of that when I wrote that sentence. Obviously the threshold would be different if a guy was planning on shooting at 800 yds rather than 400 yds. And hitting a coyote at 400 yds is different than hitting an elk at the same distance.

But as I've posted before the NPt performs very well on game across the widest range of velocities better than other bullets I've observed.

Casey

This is touching on the 24HCF fashion of fast-twist barrels and long sleek bullets that so many here are enamored of. That's fine, as Brad says, if you are swinging steel plates at a thousand or shooting game at a half mile, but largly unnecessary with a game-shot ethic of "500 yards or under."

Of course guys customize sports cars to cruise Main Street slowly too..

People listen to ingwe?

Who knew.

too bad BobinNH isnt with us to weigh in on this discussion,
.

Funny, I was thinking the same.

And you know if he's watching he's really pissed that he can't chime in....

This thread is yet another example of the decline of incivility on this forum.

We used to be able to ARGUE about this one. No more; now it's all kumbaya BS and "good point!" and.... and... empathy of all things. Ye gods.









Yeah...... Bob would've had fun on this one. Sigh.

For those who want to control as many of the variables as possible AFTER the bullet hits the critter.... there's the Partition. Variables here include: quick moving shots, angles, big bones, JeffO ass-shots, etc....

For those who want to control as many of the variables as possible UNTIL the bullet hits the critter.... there's a veritable cornucopia of high BC bullets. These variables include wind, extended range, accuracy, etc...

The shots you like to take... and the places you're likely to hunt... should influence you choice in projectiles much more than what a bunch of "get off my lawn" guys say on the internet.

Interesting that most of your "tinfoil bullets" are also heavy for caliber bullets shot at moderate speeds (2700-3000 fps). Seems to me that heavy for caliber, cup & core bullets, at moderate speeds have been killing the schitt outta stuff for 100+ years.... but all of a sudden they're inadequate because they're also "high BC long-range bullets".

I bet if you handed JOC a 7 Mag loaded with 162s he'd be aweful f'n impressed with its ability to a) hit schitt.... and b) kill schitt....

Well I believe I can help you, Bob in just the recent past initiated a PM to discuss projectiles
and his reference to NPs is the final statement on the subject he made to me:

(01/02/17)
"I agree with your comments on the Aframe....I have them but they have seen little use because I also have a lot of Bitterroots
which behave the same way....The Partition is a safe harbor. There are better things today but I'm not ready to toss them into the trash heap yet!"

You said it way better that I tried too...

I'll,have to take you guys word for the superiority of the partition. I've never used one on game. I've always used InterLocs or TSX for African game. I have recently begun to use TTSX or Accubonds.

Well said....

Never had a partition fail me. Come to think of it I never had an A-max, interlock, ballistic tip, accubond, mag-tip, deep curl, bear claw, grand slam or hard cast bullet among others ever fail me. Put'r where it kills and chit will work. It's called shoot your hunting loads at distances you plan to hunt in all conditions and figure out how they behave. Know your weapon like it was an extension of your body. What was that old saying? Sumptin' bout fearing a man with one gun. I know, I know, blasphemy in these parts!

Imagine also if you handed J.O.C. a ruger RPR in creedmore, a box of factory shells and mounted a straight 10 x SWFA on it and he made steady hits out to a grand, then told him the whole works was less the 800 bucks......

Jeff O ass shots can be deadly if rightly executed. 😀 If you ever have the unfortunate experience of getting in a gun fight with a chit-bird don't rule out putting rounds in the pelvic girdle. It'll change their channel real quick like. Just a little tip from experience.

I'd love to hear about your experience with pelvic shots....

If you're ever in a spot where or when it's needed you'll know. The pelvis is a very crucial chunk of bone needed for human mobility. Smash it with a couple rounds and things stop all the sudden. People who do combat shooting get too fixed on keyhole shaped targets and don't think outside the box. A couple of raid entry schools and some life experiences have taught me different. Perhaps over beers some day. Jokes on the ass shot thing of course although I've seen it done.

I'd love to hear about your experience with "combat shooting"....

Why in the [bleep] are you shooting something in the pelvic bone?
Are you a special kind of stupid?
I've never purposely EVER aimed at a animals pelvic area.....

Targets hit in the pelvis can still detonate their vest or release a grenade.
sounds like you were just in narcotics or something when you say you did a couple raid entry classes.
Top tier operatives dont just do a few days of courses and join a raiding unit.

Obviously you've never been in a gunfight while raid entering a deer bedding area.... otherwise you'd be pounding Partitions into every pelvic girdle you could find....

If you told him that, you'd be lyin' like a sumbish.......

The RPR is more than $800, all by it's very own self.

He might of meant a Ruger Predator Rifle.

Is that made by Ruger?

DW

I've never tried to shoot a buck in the d.i.c.k. or an elk, but apparently where this guy's hunts deer and elk walk around on their hindquarters.....lol....

Anyone want to send me some Nosler partitions so I can load them up and shoot them out of my .260?
I'll shoot them right next to my 139 gr Scenar's at 550 and we will see just exactly WTF is up with all this BS.
I don't have a dog in this fight but I'll put my money on my "tin foil" bullets as B-rad calls them.

That RPR comment struck me as strange too Don...

Could he have meant a RAR?

yup. That's what he prolly meant. But that's still no excuse for me not to miss a chance to bust balls....grin

An Ruger American Rifle Predator.

http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/models.html

You take what you have and it makes for an easy follow up. If you don't get that so be it. Been doing entries for eighteen years. Not everything is attached to a detonator. Not every war zone is in Afghanistan. Nor requires a military ranking. Ever work in Detroit, East St Louis or New Orleans. I've had my 214 for some time. It's chitty everywhere. No need for further hi jacking.

FTMFW!!!

I did mean Predator... Sorry for the confusion

I probably deserve it.......

Think outside the bubble, It doesn't have to be Afghanistan, domestic terrorists can also have wired vests and grenades,
so anyone required to directly deal with such many well face the prospect that pelvic shots will end in delay and disaster.
Whats appropriate for your level & line of work doesn't necessarily apply to the requirements of other more demanding tasks.

added:
However, in regard to hunting, I surely would put an appropriately capable bullet in the hips of injured game thats fleeing,
(if that was the best avail. shot option) simply in order to try and anchor the beast to prevent a tracking job and to reduce
any extended suffering to the animal.

Ive had heated debate with folks that though there was something wrong with busting a wounded buffalo or lions hips that
might be escaping to hide in long grass. For the life of me I can't understand why someone would just stand there and watch
them make it to cover if they have a cartridge capable of stopping them and when a potential headache was preventable.

So you have no actual experience with "combat shooting", "gunfights", or "pelvic shots".... that's pretty disappointing.... I thought we were in the presence of greatness.

PS.... do you shoot Partitions in your carry pistol in case you need to go all JeffO on Charlie?

I always learn so much in these threads.

As for me, the Partition isn't a consideration for how I'm hunting. I'm sure it works for some people, doesn't for me.

well, sneak closer so they'll work.....

Oh I have plenty. What is yours? I have eighteen years on the civilian side and a few more military. Like I said you take what you get and weigh every situation differently. A head or center mass shot isn't always offered. Preferred ammo of the day is HST. But things change like everything.

What I've learned is that I now have "Little" respect for you. I always thought you to be a hunter, but now that I see you rely on the BC crutch to compensate for a lack of ability, my perception has changed. LOL

Laughing... Need all the help I can get!



Can't get low enough to stay under the skyline, so I'm forced to shoot from the ridges.

Never been in on an "entry raid".... never been in a "gunfight"....

I did whip a bunch of bitches asses in a Sorority House pillow fight once... and I did have to "shoot" a couple of those gals in the pelvic area. Though admittedly it wasn't with a pistol.... I used the "short mag" for that. But you are correct... every situation is different, and sometimes you gotta take what you can get. Two "5's" add up to a "10".... right?

Ah, so that's why you have a thing for coyotes, woke up with a few, eh?

Partitions are the greatest thing to happen to hunting since the Butt-Out tool.

Tanner

In that situation I would like to think ole J.O.C. would call me so that I could buy a dozen of those.

Now that's just bragging. I'm seriously jealous. Hell, if you left early enough they'd prolly be all tens.

Did the butt-out tool come before or after the thutty-thutty?

Now that was an innovation. That and smokeless powder.

laffin

Slow day at the office....

It's not "ass shots" anymore man..... now they're referred to as "pelvic girdle" shots....

Girdle....




Hit 'er in the girdle!

Sooooooo...its now a " Texas Girdle Shot"....?

Poobs, thanks for the clarity.

How bout a "Vegas Girdle shot ?" Sounds more fun and interesting.

Pelvic Girdle shot........ some people can dress up anything!!!!!!!!

I guess in this day and age, Ass shots and Gut shots are too much for the sensitive types.....

I've been guilty of that shot myself, but not on purpose....



SamO, you're crackin' me up dude....,keep it up!

The old girdle punch.

Gets em everytime...

I used to know a guy who was a real ladies man. He was always talking about girdle shots.


He liked big broads, so they were likely wearing girdles....

There is nothing wrong with a fat girl! Never let your friends see you with one. They give you crap forever!!!

Did he drop right away, or stand there for a few minutes?

Love both the Partitions and the old recipe TBBC's. Have no use for the newest iteration. That being said, give North Forks a try. You will LOVE them. Everything the old TBBC was except less fouling and unbelievable accuracy. Incredible terminal performance.

He stood there for maybe five or six seconds and then dropped to his carpals ("front knees," for the unwashed among us ) and rolled over on his side just as I was getting ready to shoot a second time.

I wish we could still get the old Bear Claws.

Need some? I have some 30 caliber, 180 and 200 grain bullets. PM me if interested.

Someone on this forum once denigrated my bullet choices (North Fork SS in particular) for not having a high enough B.C. to make them worth using. Considering they work out to well beyond where most people shoot, that seems to me to be a stupid argument - but if one wants to essentially argue that a bullet's most important characteristic is it' B.C., Partitions could be faulted for not having the high B.C. values some other bullets have.

A more logical reason for me is one of accuracy. If a bullet doesn't provide the accuracy needed or wanted then I wont use it. Never had a problem with Partitions, though, except the 170g RN in my .30-30.

If bullets with a high BC kill just as well as others, why in the wide wide world of sports would you not use them?

Probably because it annoys millennials Or maybe the vast majority of hunters don't shoot at extreme ranges.

Do you prefer the thrill of victory....

Or the agony of defeat?

There are multiple reasons one might choose a lower B.C. bullet:

1. Cost
2. Accuracy
3. External ballistics
3. On-target performance

The first two are pretty self explanatory.

External Ballistics. A higher B.C. does not guarantee a flatter trajectory. Often the higher B.C. bullet weighs more, starts out slower and, in terms of trajectory, retained energy and velocity, may not overtake the bullet with the lower B.C. until way past where the shooter is willing to take a shot - if ever.

On target performance. Bullets with different construction often behave very differently after impact. Those that essentially self-destruct can provide DRT results but I don't trust them to penetrate on bad angles. Bullets that hold together and "kill just as well as others" can be generally be relied on to provide better penetration on bad angles. Bullets that come apart can destroy a lot of meat unnecessarily - bullets that hold together often do less such destruction.

Every hunter has to choose their bullets. Some put little or no thought into the selection process other than cost. Others put a lot of thought into it and select based on a combination of factors. Most people are probably in-between those extremes. You're probably aware I prefer to plan for the worst and work for the best and that, accordingly, I prefer bullets that hold together, even if that means a lower -- but high enough -- B.C.

There is alot more to bullets than BC. Given equal on-game performance I'll agree with your statement ; therein lies the rub. I've shot more than a few animals at distances measured in feet. Two elk just last year; one at 50 yards, one at 30 feet. I'd suggest running the ballistics of Nosler partitions against the high BC bullets. There is practically no difference until you get beyond 500 yards.

Regardless of what people seem to think bullets start dropping like rocks after about 400-450. Then there is that pesky little thing called wind. Slipperier bullets fight the wind better - but whats that gain you 2-3-4-5 extra inches beyond 500 yards? When your bullet is already blown off track 6-10 inches the fact remains you still need to compensate for the wind. If you can lob your bullet into the target correcting for 6-10 inches of wind drift, you certainly should be able to correct for 8-15 inches.

Which brings me to the reason why I'm not a fan of shooting beyond 500 yards - how many animals are wounded and lost because someone mis-read the wind. To hear it told on the Fire, there isn't any. Which is BS.

I respect the opinions of others that see it different but I know what works for me and my style of bunting. I'll stick with bullets that perform up close and as far as I'm comfortable with shooting. Seems to have worked for 40 years give or take.

Problem is, wind speed is always unknown. Even with a wind meter. So less drift does make a difference when the wind speed is either mis-judged or variable between the shooter and target. It means the effects of the error in judging wind speed are minimized.

Some people that live in wide open spaces where there is a lot of wind get hung up on having the highest possible b.c. to the point where it becomes ridiculous (see some of the 270 vs the 6.5's and 7mm's for example) . I'm sure there were many hunters in the past that were successful before the appearance of the new bullets out now. They are free to do so if they like of course.

Lot's of us like to try different bullets for different purposes instead of getting hung up on only certain types of bullets and becoming close minded. I can tell you one thing, in some of the areas here where there are lots of grizzlies there is no way I want a Berger, ELD-X, Scenar....etc. I'll take a Partition, TTSX, Accubond and the like every time.

In that setting, yeah.

Me, too.

DF

People who shoot long distances in wind wanting high BCs is no more ridiculous than people who think they need a "premium" bullet to kill a deer.

WT's aren't that tough.

Gerrygoat added the Griz factor which does alter the equation.

DF

Agreed. In recent years the 6.5mm and 277 Ballistic Tips have been great for us. Last year the 6.5mm Sierra 130 gr HPBT brought home a deer for me as well with no complaints.

Sure it alters the equation, but when you go allllll the way back to the OP, the question/premise was pretty simple.

Someone got the ball rolling by responding to the effect, "when you're shooting long distances in wind."

That seems pretty simple to me, and I'm not a guy who shoots big game at long distances in the wind.

I hear ya but at the end of the day I'm not a fan of shooting game at long distances as I define it - 500+ yards. My point is wind is not constant, nor is it known at all points between the shooter and target. I've shot a bit at long distance and know for me I'm not comfortable doing it. Not because of a lack of skill but because of the unknowable variables. Misread the wind and your bullet doesn't land where it should. Higher BC decrease the drift and in effect increase the margin of error - but it's still a widely variable variable. 😁

I don't shoot long distances in wind because I'm not good enough at it. But that doesn't mean there aren't some who are good enough.

Wind can be an issue. One could make a case for a round like the 26 Nosler. It shoots high B.C. bullets pretty fast. Of course, the quicker the bullet gets there, the less time wind has to create havoc.

I'm not a fan of 500+ yd. game shots, but if that's the only shot I was gonna get at a trophy, all or nothing, I'd feel pretty comfortable with my 26 Nos, a good bullet, Z3 BT twisted to the determined range, as solid a hold as I could come up with and BANG...

No substitute for lots of practice, but good equipment does offer an edge.

DF

Maybe it's a millennial thing, maybe it's a simple math thing, maybe it's a baby boomer being slow on the uptake thing.

For me, these bullets perform pretty good on critters....

I do want to try the Scenars in my 260 some day those look good, how far were the critters away that you recovered those? The areas we hunt deer have no grizzlies so I wouldn't mind trying them out.

I won't even start hunting deer until mid october because of the numbers of brown bears here. In some places its almost suicide to shoot a deer by yourself because of the amount of bears. Brown bears are a serious problem here at times.

Likewise. I've gone back to c&c mostly myself. Those too get the job done for me.

YMMV.

Agreed - I had this pecker-shot caribou... pre laser ranger - but the wind was also in play.

Ouch

That is actually pretty funny.

I think this thread boils down to is those that have used Partitions for a long time and tend to keep their shots inside 500 yards vs those that tend to shoot longer ranges and can harness the benefit afforded by a higher BC. I'm still not a fan of shooting game beyond 500 yards because of the aforementioned wind variable. I've seen wind do weird things and know many times it is not constant. I hope those that advocate long range shooting have the ethics to pass on those situations.

I'm also for utilizing all the margin one can gain - it makes sense. I do think when big bitey issues arise, I'm mostly done looking at BC. I want a bullet that will work when Big Bitey shows up. This is where Partitions shine. They work close and far. They may not be the best for longer ranges but they don't suck either.

The only thing a Partition has going for it is cheap seconds at SPS.

I'm honestly curious on 2 points for those that don't like Partitions. First, what is the bullet of choice and conditions your bullet excels at. Second, what is 'wrong' with the Partition.

Don't want to start a pissing match, but I am curious.

Can't answer for others but I like partitions just fine and I'd use them in situations where bullet construction is more important than accuracy and external ballistics. Honestly though, that's not a lot of my hunting.

My favorite bullets for most of the stuff I hunt are Scenars because they're generally more accurate, better in flight, and cheaper than premiums like partitions.

I should clarify - I don't use Partitions in every situation, only when I think I'll need deep penetration or to keep a bullet together. I use them for elk size critters, black bears, and deer when I'm using a cartridge capable of 3000 ft/sec at the muzzle and a deer may show up at less than 50 yards. I've shot more than a few deer with standard cup/core, Nosler BT and AB. I don't care for the mess. The only exception to this is Hornday IL. I shoot Horn IL at deer in 90+% of the time.

Tell me of one person that thinks premium bullets are "needed" to kill deer.

I use premiums on deer -- and antelope -- but not because I think they are "needed".

The reason I do so is because I load my rifles for elk and use them for other game as well. Deer get hunted in the same season as elk so using a single bullet type makes perfect sense. Antelope get hunted 2-4 weeks earlier and I see no need to work up special loads for them. Using one bullet type makes life simpler and the cost delta is so small as to be unimportant in the extreme.

I have yet to see where a premium bullet fails on deer or antelope or where other bullet types kill them any quicker. What I have seen is fragile bullets like the A-MAX needlessly destroy a lot of meat where the premiums I use minimize meat loss.

The cost delta for using one bullet for all is minimal and may be less than the cost of working up and inventorying separate, additional loads. When compared to the total cost of my hunts the cost delta for using premiums is a fraction of 1% - not something I'm going to worry about.

Tell me of one person that gets hung up on having the highest bc possible to the point it's ridiculous.

And yes, plenty of people who hunt nothing bigger than deer use "premium" bullets. As a matter of fact, I've had a guy tell me that a .277" 130-grain partition was not a good deer bullet and I needed to switch to the TTSX.

An lastly, I don't really care why you, personally, use/don't use whatever bullet you choose.

One would think that guy hasn't used Partitions. I like TTSX and Partitions, shoot both. For genl. WT hunting, I don't think you can beat a Partition and the TTSX won't make you a better hunter by switching.

Matching bullet design to velocity and the game hunted is IMO an art. No one bullet is perfect for everything, the NPT comes pretty close.

DF

Around 500 on both of them IIRC.

This pretty well sums it up, although the accubonds I've been using the last 3 years or so are very, very impressive killers.

I ran into a guy from Pennsylvania this past elk season here in Wyoming.

He had quite the long range setup...Can't remember the round but I was a bit surprised when he said he was shooting a partition...and apparently did quite well out to 7-800 yards. He didn't seem like he was completely full of it, and didn't throw any red flags about his "ability" to shoot at long range.

Don't know if he ever connected o an elk or not.

Given the choices available today, a partition isn't even a consideration unless they come about $18 per 50 from SPS and even then it's usually a pass.

I'll shoot the TTSX, TSX, Etip, Accubond, NBT, Scenar, Berger, and Amax over a Partition, depending on the situation.

When "tough" is a consideration, the SPS 168 etip and 150gr etip get the nod in 308 and 7mm respectively. A nice blend of accuracy, toughness, and bc rolled into one. Nothing but good results from them.

I'm had great results from the 225gr Accubond.

I've killed a pile of deer using Berger, Scenar, and Amaxes. NBTs have done fine too for deer.

I'll take two jumbo black bears this spring for predator control, and the etip will get the nod.

If it's so windy that a Partition isn't good enough I probably wouldn't shoot anything else either.


Seriously.



Only have them loaded for 2 rifles but out to 400 yards they are very accurate. 180 PT's in 300 WSM's.


I think the BC is .474.


140 Accubonds for the 270 are .496.


Those are pretty low numbers for the tight pants kids.




I don't shoot deer past 400-500 yards anyway so worrying about a bullets BC is fairly low on the list when it comes to actual hunting.

I'm beginning load work up with a friend's .270 Wby. I have 130 and 150 NPT's, 130 and 140 NAB's, 150 ABLR's to try.

I ran them all thru the Hornady Ballistics Calculator using max book speed. At 600 yds, there was only an inch or so separating all but the 150 NPT, it dropped 5" more than the rest.

So, unless someone is shooting at extreme ranges, Partitions hold their own pretty well, according to Hornady data.

DF

Good post. I love the interlocks too. The same thread could be started about the interlock. However, I've all but switched to partitions because SPS sells the blemished and seconds for such a reasonable amount of money and Hornady went weird on bullet production over the last few years that it just makes more sense to buy the partitions...

From 100 grains in 243 to 400 grains in 416, they have never failed me or the friends that I load for, they hunt a hell of a lot more than me, I've not received or seen a complaint over the last 35 years of my loading career.

It is a fine bullet design, and 30 cal at 200 grains is the truest flying hunting bullet I've ever fired out to 500 yards.

I think the blurred line between hunting and target shooting on the Campfire is what lends so many of these subjects to debate these days. There's been so much injection of tactical equipment and long range shooting that the line between the guy with a Tactical scope with a funky reticle and a rifle chambered in a caliber known to promote high BC bullets and the desire to shoot groups out to 1000 yards and a guy with a 30 caliber rifle wearing a backpack in search of deer and elk with an effective range of 400 yards or less is often misunderstood. The Partition has proven itself over many decades to be the benchmark many bullets try to outperform. Between monometals, hollow point and plastic tipped matchgrade bullets the desire to have a Bullet that flys straight, expands well and stays together has left us with many choices. The number of posts that tell a story of Partitions not performing as advertised are very few. I cant for the life of me see where someone wouldn't be okay with a partition IF it shoots well in said rifle. I'll admit to having killed some chit with a Partition but there's been many cases where other bullets that I had confidence in shot more accurately up close and far away and those were the times I opted for a different bullet. But if the Partition shot well consistently close and far I'd be happy to kill with it.

I recently acquired a 300 WSM that my handloads produced these groups with a 180 Partition at 2980 fps. This is one of the few rifles I've owned that shot Partitions this well and I see no reason not to roll with them!

The other side of all of this is that FAR less accuracy than most handloaders think is necessary will consistently take big game out to 400 or even 500 yards. For some reason, we've become convinced that a load that shoots 3/4" 3-shot groups at 100 yards is vastly superior to one that shoots, say, 1-1/4 inch groups.

Even a pronghorn has a vital area about the size of a volleyball, and most big game animals are larger. Believe me, if you can shoot reasonably well, a rifle that shoots 1-1/4 inch 3-shot groups at 100 will hit a volleyball every time at 400 yards--if the shooter knows what they're doing. At "normal" ranges that's the real factor, not what are actually small differences in group size.

If the higher BC projectile happens to offer all the required #4 OTP, (and there are bullets that can and do that for some people),
that person can pass on NPs and not be at a loss.

Take the popular 300win-
If someone thinks they lost their prized elk because they didn't use a 200NP or 220NP instead of the 210 LR-AB
then I would be inclined to put it down to poor shooting than poor choice of bullet.

Put it this way, I'd rather shoot a big mule deer buck at 400 yds with a partition than a big mule deer buck at 40 yds with a Nosler LRAB.

And there are people that would rather pass up both and launch A-Frames for 40-400yd.
and some will gladly use any of the three.

True but if the chosen bullet shoots better and is substantially cheaper, why go with any premium when it's not needed to kill your animal?

Exactly--but I have read many times on the Campfire the advice to "use whichever bullet shoots best," regardless of the animal and typical shooting situation. This sometimes makes sense and sometimes doesn't, especially at ranges where a little bit more accuracy won't make any difference at all, and bullets construction might.

I have killed hundreds of big game animals with cup-and-core bullets, including Bergers, Hornadys, Nosler Solid Bases and Ballistic Tips, Remington Core-Lokts, Sierra GameKings, Speer Hot-Cors and Winchester Power Points. Have also killed hundreds with Nosler Partitions and various other premium bullets. Have also watched about the same number of animals killed by hunting companions, using a similar array of bullets. All hunting bullets work if we know how they work and use that knowledge in selecting them--but I have yet to see a "failure" with Partitions at ranges out to 550 yards, and have with several of the others.

My primary complaints with the Partition are excessive meat damage compared to a TTSX, higher recovery rate, and higher cost.

They kill fine generally, but too often they make just one hole. The only monos I have seen recovered were very light and shot into a lot of very large bone.

I have never seen an AB exit.

Nosler's Partition has 70 years of killing to recommend it. In my experience, mainly with deer and elk, Partitions lose most of their nose (to 40 percent of their weight) after mid- to high-velocity impact, even with rib shots into game of modest size. If lethality were measured only by retained weight, the Partition would rank well below the newer and similar but bonded A-Frame, the Trophy Bonded and the lead-free game bullets (GMX, TSX). But having examined many animals killed with Partitions, I've found substantial damage caused by that ruptured nose. Given proper shot placement, it's in the vitals. The heel carries on, to exit or, if bone or thick, elastic hide interferes, to lodge just under the off-side skin. The heel doesn't create much of a wound channel. But it can deliver the exit wound some hunters like, and in many cases splinters bone beyond the vitals. My best groups seldom come from the Partition -- or the A-Frame or Trophy Bonded -- but I'm confident with all of them in game that shreds standard softpoints before they drive deep enough to kill. Current Partitions, by the way, are more accurate than the originals with a "frosted" look to the jackets. Early manufacturing on screw machines, I'm told by Nosler people, couldn't ensure the concentricity of later jackets..... WvZ

And I've had just the opposite results. As I write this, I'm looking at the only Partition I've ever recovered out of a couple dozen. It was a 35 caliber 250 grain and it went lengthwise of a caribou, front to back, stopping under the hide in the right hip. Similarly the only X or TSX bullet I ever recovered was from an elk shot lengthwise. However the X and TSX bullets have all produced way more meat damage and bloodshot than the Partitions. I haven't used as many, eight to be exact, in a 7x57, 308, 300 H&H, and 400 Whelen but everyone has produced substantial bloodshot and meat damage. I've never tried the TTSX but would expect similar results.

With the exception of the one noted, the Partitions have left good exit wounds, just like the X and TSX but with far less meat damage, in my experience.

I read the first half page of this thread when it started. read a couple of the latest pages today.

Come on October...

I started handloading and hunting with the sierras back in the 1970s. They just flat work, if you can shoot. Like all the other bullets I've used since...

Even Sept will do.

Several of us, talking outside here, wonder how it is so many have such decidedly different results and I think it might be interesting to look at the variables that make it happen.

I have shot boxes of Barnes in the various iterations at critters and have never personally recovered one. I use them in .22 to .375 and run them light for caliber...

I have over 50 recovered Partitions from animals I have shot with mostly the same cartridges as monos. I see a huge difference. Because I see a big difference in how soon big animals die when shot with something that leaves two vents I want both.

As to meat damage differences I am lost on that... Ray Charles would see the difference!

If ones rifle is used for a variety of game, a premium may well be more bullet than required for the smaller species,
but good sense for the larger species and/or potential difficult shot angles.

50 some elk I've killed with Partitions and never caught a Partition except for once.
A double kill at 600 yards from a 300/200 gr. One bullet passed through two elk and ended up on the opposite hide of the second killed. Both elk dropped at the same time.

allenday knew his stuff more than most

Ok, we know that AD was extremely obsessive about his rifles but not about his choice of premium hunting bullet.
and by the same token, had Echols Legends not come into existence, he wouldn't have missed them either.


AD seems to appreciate the under 1/2" accuracy others say is not much worth anything

Just wondering why he went 'all the way' with his rifles but not his bullets; surely if no ripples in the barrel cosmetics
mean something, why would a bullet that penetrates more and shoots more accurate than NP not mean something to him?

Baloney.

More AD


Phil Shoemaker thinks highly of them as well.

I don't read that AD is being obsessive about the 180NP....hes simply saying they got the job done for him.
An obsessive person to me would opt for the additional penetration 200NP would offer needed or not, and he'd
probably send it from .300-wby not 300win.

in reverse, AD certainly didn't need an under 1/2" Legend rifle to kill game, but such rifles were an obsession
of his, that seem to offer him great personal pleasure.

Now, if some people get obsessive pleasure for bullets that penetrate or fly better than NP, they could go through
a lifetime of hunting and not come close to the cost of the $15,500 Legend obsession.

Why do people laud and justify one persons form of obsession in rifles but not another persons in projectiles?

"Sure! go ahead buy an under 1/2" $15,500 rifle to shoot deer , just don't use bullets that cost more or penetrate more
than NPs bcause the people that really like your rifle choice will say those other bullets really aint necessary"....LOL...




Yep, but I don't know, Does Mr Shoemaker ultimately prefer NP in his .458 big bear stopper?

Some of Allen's last word's doesn't sound like he's obsessed with rifles.

I always thought AD was mostly obsessed with perfect function.

Pretty soon the PD's will being sticking their heads out regular and we will have discussions on the best "PD" bullet!!!!!!

Well I don't just go on a mans last words, I took everything in the man said about his Legends over more than a decade.
His interest was in the absolute pinnacle of practical use hunting rifles; highest quality, attention to detail, reliability and perfomance,
hence why he contracted Echols to build them for him.



AD went through a wide spectrum of details about his Echols builds, and he praised & valued much more than just the tools function.



03/09/07 [quote=allenday]
Brad, first of all, I'd like to thank you very much for posting these photos, especially here on the 'Hunting Rifles' forum, as this gun was built to hunt with and not sit in the safe.

This rifle is an Echols 'Legend' in 270 Win., and it's built on a pre-64 Model 70 action in the 200,000 serial number range. A pre-64 action is optimal in this case as it has the very best magazine system
Winchester ever built for the 30-06 family of cartridges, and the receiver's just a trifle shorter than the Model 70 'Classic' action. So it's a very efficient action for a 270 Win., plus, you don't have to
replace the magazine box, follower, follower spring, or extractor. All of those parts are as good as they get already, and cannot really be improved upon.

The receiver was fully blueprinted, inside and out, top and bottom, to absolute concentricity, including the receiver face and bolt face, plus the lug-seats were remachined and then hand-lapped to full contact.
The tang was reshaped to more of a streamlined pre-war Model 70 configuration, improving appearance as well as getting rid of unnecessary metal, thus weight. The original scopemount screw holes were
redrilled and opened up to 8X40, which allows the holes to be drilled in a dead-line with the center of the receiver, and thus the rifle bore. Everything was then stoned and polished to absolute smoothness.
The round sections contain no flat spots, and the flat sections are dead-flat, with no ripples or dishes. One of the main reasons that D'Arcy remachines the bottom of the receiver is to create an absolutely flat,
concentric, and stress-free bedding platform, which contributes significantly to top accuracy and stability.

The bolt and trigger have had many of the parts upgraded, including a new firing pin, since the original was found to be undersized, plus new pins and springs, etc. The trigger and safety were perfectly timed
to work together as a true unit, and cocking-piece protrustion (runout) is perfectly consistent as the safety is engaged and disengaged. In other words, the cocking-piece meets the sear in exactly the same
place every time, resulting in an absolutely consistent and crisp trigger-pull everytime of 3.25 pounds. No creep, no safety jar-offs, and no slam-fires.

The bolt has been given a new, more modern, streamlined bolt handle by Tom Burgess that is compact, lighter, and set lower, so it better clears a modern low-mounted scope, and the bolt knob
was hand-checkered in two panels.

Triggerguard/floorplate assembly is built from scratch, of milled-steel construction, by Tom Burgess, and by the way, as I understand it D'Arcy has completed making the necessary jigs and is now making
his own milled-steel unit of a similar pattern in-house, at his own shop in Utah.

The bolt-release was also built-up and hand-checkered by Tom Burgess.

Scopemounts were totally designed from the ground up and built from scratch to exactly fit the receiver without a hairline gap showing (looks like one unit with the receiver, as if the two were grafted together),
of milled-steel construction, by D'Arcy Echols, in-house. The lower ring halves and bases are a single unit, and there are four 8x40 torx screws securing the top ring halves to the bases. The scope rings are
perfectly sized inside to exactly match the diameter of the scope tube. There is no flexing whatsoever when the rings are tightened up, and you can remove the scope and not detect that the scope was ever
mounted into a set of rings. With the scopes windage adjustment field counted back to the very middle of the adjustment range, the scope is only a couple of clicks off from perfect zero for windage, which
goes a long way to ensure against bullet-placement problems downrange due to parallax issues.

Original factory action screws were replaced with custom heat-treated hex-head action screws that were fabricated by Montana's Half-Moon Rifle shop. These are the toughest, most precise, best-built,
best-looking, and best-finished aftermarket Model 70 actions screws ever made, and D'Arcy doesn't use anything else. They don't bugger up, they don't slip, and they stay tight.

The barrel is a 22" cryogenically-treated Kreiger of Kreiger's 'Featherweight' contour, 1-10" twist; with all chambering (middle of SAAMI specs), crowning, finish, and installation by Echols. D'Arcy pays particular
attention to throat and lead dimensions, finding that these play a very big role in accuracy. There isn't a ripple to be found in this barrel anywhere, from shank to crown, and fortunately, this barrel just doesn't
foul up much, either.

The stock is D'Arcy's own McMillan that's been bedded in Devcon (I think!) and machined aluminum pillars in a stress-free manner, along with a medium-size red Pachmayr 'Decelerator' pad.

He originally crafted a pattern stock by hand, of his own unique trademark design, then hand-checkered it. It was then sent to McMillan for duplication into fiberglass. Echols uses these on every 'Legend' rifle
he builds, and he will sell these as blanks directly to the customer in either standard-pour, magnum-pour, or McMillan's 'Edge'. You can only buy these stocks directly from D'Arcy, when he has them and can ge
t them, and only for pre and post-64 Model 70s, although from what I understand they'll also work with a Montana Rifle Company action.

The one on this rifle a standard-pour, and brings total rifle weight to 8 lbs. complete.

Accuracy with my own 130 gr. Nosler Partition handloads is under 1/2" at 100 yards, and D'Arcy tells me it's an absolute drill with 130 gr. Barnes TSXs as well.

With all of these rifles, D'Arcy breaks the barrel in according to what is generally considered standard benchrest proceedure, then tests for accuracy with different loads. Feeding and function is thoroughly tested
as well. He won't send out an untested, unproven rifle ever -- it's not his way of doing things.

The red pad/brown stock idea was my own concept. A number of years ago, D'Arcy built for me a 338 Win. Mag. that I've used for a goodly amount of hunting. I didn't want another all-black rifle, so one night
I decided that a brown stock with a red pad would breath some visual life into a glass-stocked gun and harken back to an earlier era of custom riflemaking, plus it would contrast well with the blued metalwork,
and D'Arcy had that rifle on display at SCI one year. To my surprise, Echols tells me that this brown stock/red pad combo has become very popular with his clients.

Anyhow, that's the story of this 270, and now I'm going to take my wife out for the evening!

AD
[end/quote]

I asked AD a question in that same thread, if he would in hindsight change any of the details off that .270win Legend build:

Now keep in mind, most people would be satisfied if not elated with Tom Burgess metal work, but not Allen Day.



03/09/07 [Re: Starman]
[quote=allenday]No, I wouldn't change anything on that rifle, other than to have D'Arcy build all of it from the ground up.

It's a long story, but originally this project started as a complete custom Model 70 barreled-action that Tom Burgess had completed many years earlier. It was carefully stored away,
in the white, and had never been in a stock. Eventually, I came to own it, and I didn't do anything with it for quite a while, either. I didn't want to sell it, and I didn't want to stock it in wood.
Finally, I asked D'Arcy to put it in a 'Legend' stock so that I could shoot it and hunt with it.

He was gracious enough to do so, and the finished rifle was really nice looking, but I felt as though the chamber was too tight, and the barrel Tom had installed on it wasn't giving me the
accuracy I was looking for. So in time I sent it back to D'Arcy to completely rebuild according to his standards, salvaging only the best of what was previously done.

As he dug into it, he found the receiver specs were off, the firing-pin was undersized, the chamber was off, etc, etc. So with my blessing, he pulled and replaced the barrel and rebuilt most
of the rest of it his way, to full 'Legend' standards.

This is no knock on anyone's work, but the truth is, much has changed in terms of what top gunsmiths know about accuracy, refinement, etc., compared to 35 years ago, when this project,
in effect, really sprang to life. Barrels are better, chambering and bedding techinques are better, tooling is better, etc.

When it comes to custom rifles, the "good old days" are RIGHT NOW -- not back in the mists of the 1950s........

AD [end/quote]

When you are out of them.

When the weather looks like this....

I like the way you think!

Started using the Partitions in the early 60's and am still using them. My little hunting group favors Partitions, and many elk and deer have been taken with them. I use them for one reason only, "they work".

The nosler partition is the 30-06 of bullets! The one all others are compared too!

A 140 partition out of a 7 mag will punch a hole through a piece of 3/8 plate at 50 yards. Bad boy of the bullet world!!! The only thing I might have liked better is the old original Trophy Bonded Bearclaw.

50 yards isn't much of a test... Plus there's multiple reports of Bergers doing the same thing at greater distances....

Given a choice between a Berger and a Nosler Partition,the NP would win every time.

The Nosler Partition, Is a hunting bullet.

Yup,since 1948.

Well, never, as said above. But I don't own a rifle that doesn't better like something else for accuracy.. Which is decent, but not outstanding for the Partitions. I rate them "adequate +".

Mostly I've gone back to C&C - if I "need" a premium, Trophy Bonded have done well for me. I haven't fired a NP in probably 15 years, and have not found any inadequacy in my kills. Actually, I think almost the last time I used a premium it WAS a .338WM 210 gr. NP - and it blew up on the moose's shoulder blade, peppering the near lung with bb bits of bone and lead, not even reaching the far lung, at 100 yards. Never did find the rear part of the bullet. I think it must have fallen out the entry wound. Never used 210NP again, tho I think I did the 250's. They must have worked, or I'd remember it.....

So flay me for heresy.....