After riding this Triple Shock wave for some time now I have found some evidence to make me uneasy about choosing them for hunting this season.

I have been disputing this for awhile and after reading JJHACK's post it made me more comfortable with using the incredible All-Copper bullet they call the triple shock. But, after watching a clip for the Barnes Promo video on the Midway site I noticed somthing that I had not noticed before.

During the penetration tests on the Gelatin blocks I noticed that after all shots were shown, the Barnes Block was the only one NOT to split open on the sides from impact. First, I thought, "well maybe the other blocks split because the bullet was too close to the edge or particles shreaded it open," and then after going back an watching again I noticed that, yes the Scirroco and GameKing block shots were closer to the edge than the rest, but the FailSafe and everyother bullet wasn't, and on top of that the Partition and the Accubond split the block from center hits from what I see.

The purpose to this post is about whether or not this shows how much a Triple Shock displaces energy on impact.

I'm not going after a Hydraulic Shock theory discussion here but maybe this is why JJHACK didn't see very many confirming hits from the Triple Shocks on game animals. I consider myself just another hunter and I think it would be nice to have a reaction from a game animal on impact rather than not but on the other hand I like the idea of "blender" going through internals rather than a small "Oblong hammer".

I'll have to admit, I didn't like the idea of the Accubonds from day 1 but I have swept that grudge under the carpet and have read as much about them as possible.

I would like to encourage people to watch that clip on the Barnes Promo Video that Midway has a link to and then post some thoughts on to why you thought those bullets did what they did in the Gelatin with a more critical look at it.

Barnes Performance Clip DIAL UP/ Slow DSL

Barnes Performance Clip Fast DSL/ Cable/ T1

read my post on interesting bullet test

I don't know about the splitting but the "reaction" on the block shot with a TSX looked as violent as the others.

Exactly. And that is what it was designed to do: limit energy transfer at very high velocities.

That is what was behind the dreadful 10,000 post debacle in the 'Ask the Gunwriters' section. The all copper bullets allow people to shoot ultra-powerful cartridges at medium sized game... without bullet failure or massive meat damage. But the same bullet gives these boys really good penetration on game that is suited to really powerful guns.

Will

EDIT: This is purely personal opinion. I do not want to argue. I am not a professional ballistics expert. And I am not insulting anyone who uses either a wildly powerful magnum or TSX bullets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sako75- Thanks for the reference.

Penguin- Thanks for replying, maybe there is something to shooting a smaller "X" type bullet than just trajectory gain or a normal Lead bullet. For some reason Lazzeroni only lists a 150gr. bullet with there Lazerhead Bullets in .308 cal. I may be wrong but that bullet coming out of a Warbird or even a Patriot catridge is going to be SCREAMING along very nicely but it might transfer more energy because of the added resistance to the bullet because of its lack of momentum compared to a heavier bullet.

Could be brother. I'd like to know someone who designs bullets just to sit down one time and learn some of their reasoning. It is truly an interesting topic to me.

Maybe I should have written 'rate and type of energy transfer'. There is no doubt in my mind that an interbond/accubond or fusion or interlock type bullet will transfer energy quicker in muscle type media. But from all the dead elk I see these boys toting out I don't see any symptoms of copper bullets having trouble transmitting energy in the form of broken bones and dead animals. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Will

Long ago I learned something from a guy named Bob Hagel. That was that Nosler Partition bullets worked much better than other bullets. They hold together and penetrate. They open fast, but hold together and penetrate. They will litertally make a magnum like killer out of a standard round. I know because I've used both and seen many others used. Many times over many years on many much tougher than deer critters.
Now we have the Barnes X. The latest design, the TSX does just what the NP does. Open fast, hold together and penetrate. Only even better. Close to 100% instead of 65-70% of their weight.
So what they don't do something to a block of gelatin that some other bullet does. I can tell you that those other bullets don't do better against muscle and bone. And that's what counts. E

Sorry E, I have to respectfully disagree with the above. The TSX does not perform in the same way as the NP does.

The NP (as well as BTs, Accubonds) is designed to shed some of its weight. After impact, the NP gives off bits of copper and lead fragments that disperse outward as it travels thru creating a devastating wound channel, destroying nerves, blood vessels and tissues in the process. Those dispersing fragments traveling outwardly from the wound channel could also determine the outcome of the shot if bullet placement is a bit off (a small but very real advantage of the NP over the TSX IMO).

I like the weight loss of the NP, its just right while still retaining enough weight to penetrate on thru a critter while leaving behind a destructive wound channel with a hole on each end (most of the time). No, the NP won't outpenetrate an X bullet but in reality it does not need to.

John Nosler created the NP bullet which was way ahead of its time. And I bet if the NP was introduced today X bullet fans would be deserting in droves and switching over to NPs.

MtnHtr

To which I say "Thank goodness!"


I'll stick with higher retained weight. The Partition was a great bullet in its time, but I'll take a North Fork, Trophy Bonded or A-Frame every time over a Partition. All much better bullets, IMHO.



I, for one, would not. You will always get some folks changing, but the TSX bullets seem to perform the way I want a bullet to perform - and the new MRX's promise to be even better. I load TSX's and North Forks in my 7mm and up big game rifles, TSX, A-Frame and Partitions in my .257 Bob. The .257 120g Partition will never see use on anything larger than a coyote, as the A-Frames and TSX will get the call instead.

Just my opinion, however.

I don't care for the higher retained bullet weight percentages touted by the bullets you just listed. The shedded weight could make the difference between a punched tag or tag soup IMO. As for penetration, myself and the folks I know have never had a penetration problem with the NP. And the NP is offered in a wider selection and at a lower price than the bullets you listed. Another plus is I can often work up the same load using the low priced BT bullet as a practice/deer load, often to the same point of impact if the same bullet weight is used. To me, these are the factors as to why I am returning to Nosler bullets. The TSX shockwave has ended on my reloading benches!

After reading about Charlie Sisk's and Mule Deer's experience using the A Frames on water buffalo in Texas, I wrote off the A Frame as well.

As for the MRX, the last thing I want on a LR bullet is 98-100% weight retention when shooting big game especially on deer sized animals at long range. The BT shines on LR shots at big game. At the lower LR impact velocities it will often penetrate clean thru on broadside shots and the plastic tip aids in expansion and shed bullet weight. And for all hunters who do attempt a LR shot (over 350yds) they should be opting/waiting for a broadsside shot to present itself, no texas heart shots at LR.

Based on my limited experience, Nosler's current line-up of their 3 big game bullets are the best in the industry by far.

MtnHtr

Mtn Hunter -

Fortunately its a free country and each get to choose what we use.

I agree the shedded weight could make a difference - as is sometimes the case whan a BT-style bullet blows up too quickly, leaving a shallow wound that is not immediately fatal. Over the years I have never seen game lost because of too much weight retention when a bullet expanded as expected. And I have never heard of any complaints about an A-Frame, North Fork or Trophy Bonded failing to expand.




I have seen a fair number of recovered Partitions over the years - and would consider that most of them had a problem with penetration - which is why they were recovered. That's not to say A-Frames, Trophy Bonded and North Forks are never recovered - I have a fine example of a recovered 350g .458" North Fork, but I doubt a Partition would have performed as well under the circumstances.

As to "wider selection and at a lower price", I couldn't care less. Regarding availability, I can get A-Frames for every centerfire hunting rifle I shoot, North Forks and Trophy Bonded for most of them (can't get a North fork for my .257 or a Trophy Bonded for my .45-70). Regarding cost, I don't shoot A-Frames, Trophy Bonded or North Forks when plinking. A couple years ago I harvested a forkhorn mulie and a 6x6 bull elk with the North Forks. Had I used Partitions, the money I saved wouldn't have bought a single glass of beer. At that rate, after a lifetime of hunting, I might be able to retire 10 seconds earlier. Big whoop. Like you, I load cheaper bullets that shoot to the same point of impact as the premiums I hunt with - I do this with all my bolt hunting rifles and my Marlin .45-70, no problem.



Didn't read it, so I can't comment on it.




Long range performance is the least of my worries, but I will agree that bullets like the BT perform better ("shines" in your words) due to the lower velocities. Unfortunately I never know what kind of shot will be offered - long or short - when I am building my hunting loads. As a result my loads need to be able to handle either.

I'll take 100% retention regardless of range. The MRX has a plastic tip to help accelerate expansion, same as the BT. But it won't blow up as close range, as BT's have been known to do.

I'm not knocking the Partition or the AccuBond, but I don't think either is as good as the A-Frame, Trophy Bonded or North Fork. The BT's (and similar bullets) I have no use for except paper and steel. The MRX's, I think, will be better than the TSX, which - IMHO - is already better than anything Nosler offers.



FWIW, I don't take Texas Heart Shots at ANY range, let alone long range.

Obviously, your mileage varies.

CH,

I have never witnessed a BT blow up on big game when used in its proper application (I'm refering to the big game BTs here). The key words are "proper application". Nosler has put out articles in its load manuals on when and when not to use a BT and its not rocket science. Obviously you have failed in that aspect.................

If you want to shoot high priced premiums to make yourself feel better and more confident then by all means have at it. But to say Partitions have a penetration problem because you recovered them is certainly laughable.

MtnHtr

Mtn Hunter, quit making sense. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's really tough to argue with what you've said.

Chuck

mtn hunter
I agree with you. I like the 'shrapnal' effect of the Ptartition. It's obvious that many of the 'experts' have no clue that it was designed to do what it does, open fast and penrtrate. I was one of these, until I researched. The info is in any Nosler manual. The Sciroco was designed to do the same thing, as were the AB and IB, although to a lesser extent. As I said many people have no clue about this. The scirocoII was an attempt to give the paying customers a tougher bullet, because that's what the wanted, deeper penetration. Penetration is ok on some game, but deer, give me a brake. In my opinion a deep penetrator would cause more deer to be lost than good cup and core. Deer are soft, with small bones and any bullet at the correct speed should penetrate 18" or so, even breaking bones. This, with the exception of a THS, will reach the HL and most will exit. I use the Partiton because it opens fast, even on HL shots on deer and penetrates the hogs that I shoot. It does what it's designed to do. capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And the wind whispers.......Accubond........

+1................... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Quote] by Mtn Hunter
As for the MRX, the last thing I want on a LR bullet is 98-100% weight retention when shooting big game especially on deer sized animals at long range. The BT shines on LR shots at big game. At the lower LR impact velocities it will often penetrate clean thru on broadside shots and the plastic tip aids in expansion and shed bullet weight. And for all hunters who do attempt a LR shot (over 350yds) they should be opting/waiting for a broadsside shot to present itself, no texas heart shots at LR. [quote]

Check out these 300 yard groups with TSX's;

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...true#Post109677

And this Antelope taken at long range with the TSX;

http://precisionlongrangehunter.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7011083821/m/9911043131

Magnum61
Thank's for posting the link.One of the coolest commercial's i have seen.

I shot an X once or twice,beyond a rifle's zero range.

X or bust.....................

Stick,

How's your Uncle Clair doing?.......................

MtnHtr

Better than things the X is pointed at...................

Is still controversial?

I thought we had all come to a consensus that:

1. Shot placement overcomes a plethora of bullet construction issues

2. Deer are easy to kill so it really doesn't matter what kind of bullet you use.

3. How a bullet performs on a deer is not much of an evaluation for how the bullet will do on heavier game.

4. The more frangible a bullet is the slower it needs to go when penetration is a concern.

5. The more toughly constructed a bullet is the faster it needs to impact when expansion is a concern

6. Neither lack of penetration nor under-expansion is desirable, but under-expansion is much better than lack of penetration

7. Use the bullet for the game it was designed, and keep the impact velocities where the bullet was designed to operate

That's why I drive X......................

Hard to argue with philosphy of driving a medium to light for caliber X at middle to high velocities. In fact, not only do I not argue with philosophy, I embrace it. I have only taken 4 animals--all hogs--with X bullets, but I become more imnpressed with them the more I use them, and the TSX is now the first bullet I try for any big game rifle.

I am especially "psyched" that my self-assembled, 8 lb w/scope, factory barreled 30-06 will drive a 168 TSX at 2980 fps (through my Oehler) into 3/4" groups. I cannot think of a North Amercian big animal it wouldn't work for (wouldn't be excited using it on a big bear), and for many animals it could be considered ideal...........

They'll dig and seal the deal....................

Blaine,

When you have hunted and killed as many critters as I have then you might understand. A 165gr NP will kill just as dead as your Xs, in some cases the dirt will come sooner.................

Stick,

Glad your uncle Clair is doing good, maybe he might manage to bag a critter this year using his crusty X bullits and BSA optics!

MtnHtr

I ahve always had good luck withthe partitons and never ecovered one from many deer. elk and bears. have not shot near asmuch game as many of you but it has always worked for me so i start there and work out. may try the x some day soon but working 160 AB's in my 7mm rum now, but if not stellar it will shoot the 150 partitons again thsi year and i will have no qualms about it

To disagree without being disagreeable: the Partition was designed for the front to 'come apart' and the partition part along with the ragged edges of the front jacket to continue on. This is exactaly what the AB was designed for also with a little less penetration. capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr -

I'll accept that your resort to ad hominem attack is a concession that you've lost the logical argument.

I've read Noslers manuals #4 and #5, both of which I have. I agree with their assessment of BT's, am aware that they don't make a varmint BT in anthing larger than the .25" 75g variety (which I've used to take a fair number of coyotes with my Bob). and long ago made a decision not to use a BT on large game - never have and never will. But I've been in a lot of elk camps in the last 25 years and have seen what they - and other bullets - can do.

I'm also well aware that Partitions are a good bullet. The backup ammo for my 7mm Mag handloads for those 25 years has been (drum roll...) 160g Partitions loaded by Federal. These days I think there are better choices, something you obviously disagree with. That's OK, you shoot what you want, I'll shoot what I want. By the way, my preferred hunting load for my .30-30 is a (gasp!) 170g Partition RN.

By the way, using premiums DOES make me feel better and more confident, and I use them out of respect for my quarry. I've seen enough of what can happen with standard cup and core bullets when things go wrong, have seen more recovered Partitions than I think I should have, and don't mind spending an extra buck if it helps ensure things don't go wrong with MY animal. Lord knows the cost of the bullets (and my reloads with A-Frames, TSX and North Fork are on a par with standard cup and core fodder from the factories) is insignificant in relation to my other hunting costs.

Mtn,

Nice try. While I have only killed a little over 20 big game animals, I have access to the experiences of thousands of guys, and while I of course give the most weight to my own experience, the combined expereinces of thousands of hunters trumps any one man's experience, mine OR yours. Yours and my experiences are just small data points in the universe of hunting experience.................

BTW, I didn't say anything bad about Partitions. I have used Partitions in the past and they are on my list of approved bullets. A 250 grain NP from a 338 RUM took down a little bull elk very well, and that elk had been pushed hard. However, based on the results I have seen with the TSX, I am sure a 210 TSX from my 338 Win would have done as well or better.

I apologize if I pizzed CH, Blaine and anyone else off. I normally stay outta of these stupid bullet arguments since I base my bullet choices on my own experiences and folks I personally know. As was posted earlier we have choices and anyone here is welcome to hunt along the side of me with their X bullets, just be warned I may have to back ya up with my NPs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (just had to throw that in there )

To each their own and may all of your shots be true..................<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

Mtn,

You didn't offend anyone--crud, this is just about bullets on game and anyone who would get offended about someone making a different choice is a loser.

My biggest point is that ALL of us make our bullet choices on our own experiences and the expereince of folks we personally know. Many of us take that further and try to find out what the overall experience is for a given bullet and include that in the decision matrix.

Guys like you and Stick can credibly weigh your own experience against everyone else, while guys like me need to weigh other guys experiences as much as we weigh our own.

The Partition makes a bigger initial wound channel and spreads shrapnel... IME the Partition give quick kills.

The TSX will out-penetrate anything in its weight class and is a wonderful bullet, no doubt. However, Barnes lot-to-lot inconsistancy is madening and I still harbor nagging doubts about that little X air cavitiy and its ability to open up 100% of the time.

In the end I'm a Partition fan first and foremost... in my mind it's still the "best do it all bullet" (and I hate the word "best"). It gives a wonderful wound cavity, penetrates enough for any NA game, opens up at velocities lower than the TSX and is extremely consistant lot-to-lot (not to mention is extremely accurate in every rifle I own)... it's still the High Water Mark of bullet design IMO.

Brad-the lot to lot inconsistencies that you're talking about is with the old X's and not the TSX brand right..?

Thx

Dober

I have seen BTs grenade.

Shot a hog, maybe around 100, 125lbs, right in the shoulder with my .30-06, range about 80 yards. The 180gr. bullets chrono'd about 2750fps.

The round went into one shoulder, through the shoulder blade, put a fist-sized hole in the ribs, and literally made mush out of the interior of the critter. There was not one mark on the opposite side of the rib cage or diaphram, except for the green plastic tip which penetrated the farthest.

You could have poured out the contents of the chest cavity. In fact that's what we did.

This was not a very big pig and pig bones are much softer than deer, by the way.

There was no blood trail and it took about an hour of searching the brush to find Mr. Piggie.

Now... clearly it died, so at a certain level you can't fault performance. But.... they didn't penetrate much pig. What would have happened on a 200lb. deer or 200lb. hog? Honestly don't know.....

The only BT I ever recovered was in the neck of another small pig. It was stopped by the neck muscle, and did not even break the neck bones. Core-jacket separation, of course. Same box of handloads, too.....

So we're talking penetration of maybe 3-4 inches of muscle, and only very light bones....

I also shot a javelina end-to-end with the same load. No exit..... on a critter that might have weighed 40 or 45 lbs.

Word is that the newer BTs are a bit tougher. Someday I'll get around to trying them.

My father in law got a batch of 7mm BTs that were quite soft. His description of one of them was that it just blew up a fist-sized chunk of meat and didn't go in more than a few inches. He quit shooting deer with them, said they'd cut a coyote darn near in two from his .280.....

Funny thing, the 125gr. BTs in the my .30-06 were a heck of a lot tougher.

In the meantime, I have a box of 165gr. Partitions loaded up. Those work ALL the time on all the critters I hunt. Can't complain....

Brad,
Have you found lot to lot inconsistencies with the TSX's??

[Quote] by Brad
It gives a wonderful wound cavity, penetrates enough for any NA game, opens up at velocities lower than the TSX and is extremely consistant lot-to-lot (not to mention is extremely accurate in every rifle I own)... it's still the High Water Mark of bullet design IMO. [Quote]

How did you ascertain that the Partion opens at lower velocities than the TSX?

Mark, nope... I'm talking current TSX's. One lot of 168 TSX's group like varmint bullets in my 30-06... different lot sprayed. Micing them the ogive is different... this is from lot's less than a year apart.

Pisses me off...

I all fairness, I find the same thing with Sierra Matchkings and Bergers. Even good match bullets need to be sorted by ogive length. However, groups with ogies within .002" of each other shoot together very well. I haven't tried this with hunting bullets, maybe I should. I didn't want to have another thing to get pissed over <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.............

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Blaine in all seriousness, the Partition's group in all my rifles... lot-to-lot, year in, year out. TSX's work but are damned finicky.

I've moved on and gone back to the Partition... it's a known quantity that I'm comfortable with.

MGib,

The only explanation I can come up with as to exploding BTs (big game type) are either the wrong application or a bad lot of bullets. I do have some boxes of the 22cal 40gr BTs (varmint type) from the very first lots Nosler offered to the public. A 30lb bobcat survived 2 shoulder hits and a third hit in the ribs from my 223 using these bullets as they completely fragmented just under the hide when they met muscle tissue. A half hour later I dispatched the very much alive tom with my Ruger 22 rimfire pistol. A good 'ole boy autopsy revealed superficial wounds left by the 40gr BTs with no fragments reaching the vitals. According to Dogzapper, Nosler goofed on that lot as he has killed a ton of 'yotes with the 40gr BT with no problems. I have assassinated quite a few 'yotes with the 50gr BT with no problems whatsoever.

Here are two shots of a 7mm 140BT (7-08) that I recovered from a 400lb+ black bear. We actually recovered another bullet - a 30 cal 165grBT (fired from an '06) that was a twin to this one (my friend has that bullet). The bear was wounded due to a poor hit earlier and was trying to make mincement outta of us in some brushy country. Both BTs traveled thru the mid shoulder area and lodged between the hide and fat on the offside rib area IIRC. Both BTs did lose their cores which were only a couple inches from the jacket. This bullet weighs 82.3gr and I did glue the core back in to keep it from getting lost.






This was not a case of bad bullet performance, the BTs performed just as they were designed to do although a NP would have been a better choice (I was not planning to shoot a bear on that trip). Another friend killed a twin to this bear a couple years ago using an '06/165BT with no problems and that bear was quartering away. I've killed a few other bears with these same bullets weights & cartridges using NPs with no problems whatsoever. In fact, I have never recovered a NP from any game if that means anything.

As for the Nosler 180gr BT, I've heard nothing but glowing reports on 'em since they are supposedly beefy?

MtnHtr

Mac do you still have these bullets? I'd like to get my grubby mits on them and see what you're talking about.

As you know I've been loading and shooting the TSX brand in a number of different rifles and in a number of different cals. You work with your 06 and your WSM so those are both 30's and I've not yet given them a go. So I'd love take a look at those slugs if you don't mind

Personally with the exception of the 185/338 TSX I've found the TSX brand 22's,6's both the 85 and 95's, the 270 in 110 and 130, the 7 in a 4 weights and the 338's with the 185 exception to all be extremely easy to work with and IMO very forgiving. Oops I almost forgot about the good old 375.

Must be a 30 thing, either way round em up and I'll take em off your hand for that 06 T3 I've got a coming. It'll give me some good load development bullets.

One last thing this is one of the reason I like to use the Sinclair bullet comparitor for seating slugs instead of using a col without it. The comparitor pretty much takes care of the whole ogive changing thing IME.

You gonna go to the Noz for both your rigs now or just the WSM?

Lastly one can never go wrong with the good old Nozler, its been giving game the old Nozler nap for a long long time and will continue to do so long after we are gone. IMO it is still the original gold standard of preme bullets.

Talk to you in the morn.

Dober

[Quote] by Mtn Hunter
Both BTs did lose their cores which were only a couple inches from the jacket. This bullet weighs 82.3gr and I did glue the core back in to keep it from getting lost.
This was not a case of bad bullet performance but rather bullet choice. [Quote]

In my book it is bad bullet performance, since there are bullets on the market that will not lose thier cores and allow the hunter to be prepaired for any circumstance,and not have to worry about shooting an animal that is to big and tough for the bullet being used at the time...............

JW,

I judge bullet performance by wound channels, penetration and bone/tissue destruction.

I don't freak out if a core seperates on the offside of an animal, nor if it fails to exit. Its always nice if a core remains intact but a seperation does not always mean failure if it happens on the offside of an animal...........

MtnHtr

I would agree � 59% retained weight is well under what I desire and expect in my bullets. My first big game animal was a spike bull elk (actually a 2-point If you count the brow tine, which was pretty small) and the bullet was a Hornady 162g BTSP from my 7mm Rem Mag. Range was between 100 and 120 yards. The bullet centered a rib and came to a stop under the hide on the off side. The challenge to the bullet�s integrity was minimal, but retained weight was only 47.7% or 77.2g. The following year I switched to 160g Grand Slams and it was 20 years before I recovered another bullet. That bullet had smashed through both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull elk and still retained over 71% of its original weight. The following year I decided to use true premium bullets for hunting and have no regrets.

One interesting test I have performed was to shoot various bullets into swinging steel plates at 200 yards. While not representative of flesh and blood, it does provide a severe challenge to a bullet�s integrity. Of the various hunting bullets I have tried, the North Fork is the only one for which I have been able to recover any pieces. For the most part, the others created a shallow crater, turned into shrapnel, and proceeded to shred the paper targets I stapled up about 15 feet to the side. TSX�s and XLC�s from my 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag create a deep and wide crater and give it a shiny copper plating job, but I have never recovered any TSX or XLC pieces. The two .308� 180g North Forks from my .300 Win Mag made deep craters and stayed in them, one of which I was able to remove for examination. It had expanded to a perfect mushroom with a diameter of .495� (small, but not unexpected in steel) with a short shank section that was inside the deep cap of the mushroom. Retained weight as 85.0g or 47.2%. Although low, that�s 47.2% better than any other bullet I�ve tried.

Those steel plates get shot by a lot of people using many different bullet types, cartridges and velocities. I have on my desk two other pieces of bullets I have recovered. The first is one of mine, a jacket from a .224�, 52g Match BTHP (Speer or Hornady, not sure) fired at about 3600gps from my .22-250. It looks like a 2-dimensional octopus with a very thin coating of lead on one side. The other is a .308� of unknown origin. It is a piece of lead roughly the size of a dime but thinner and with relatively sharp edges,. On one side and slightly off-center is the perfectly round base of the original jacket (which I measured to determine the caliber).

Some people want their big game bullets, or at least part of them, to fragment on impact. While the use of such bullets can and often does result in dramatic kills, it is my opinion and experience that they can and sometimes do yield undesirable results due to low retained weight.

I�ll take a good mushroom with high retained weight instead. As always, placement is the #1 criteria.

MtnHtr � I accept that we have different opinions on this. You use the bullets you do because you have confidence in them. I reject them (particularly the BT�s, don�t really have an issue with the AB�s and Partitions) because I don�t. If you are ever in the Denver area, contact me and I�ll buy the first round.

It all boils down to how the results are interpited, as the shot angle you described is one that I would expect an exit. I believe that a hole in and a hole out ( 2 holes ) is better than just a hole in (1 hole).
YMMV

I have no horse in this race, nor any particular personal interest in (other than academic) as to what works on game bigger than deer or black bear. If I ever have the desire to hunt Elk again (which at the moment, I don't) then I might think about super penetrators for that purpose.

But............reading this from the outside, it is clear there are two viewpoints. Both have points and flaws but neither has a lock on the "ultimate truth"

Viewpoint #1 states that the bullet must retain a high percentage of weight (say over 60-70%) and should exit the animal in 95% of circumstances. To ENSURE this, it takes a pretty tough bullet. Lack of either of these two attributes equate to "bullet failure" (whether the animal is on the ground or not) The flaws in this argument are that......

#1......Said tough bullet does not always kill quickly, b/c by nature, it will expand more slowly and will not throw "shrapnel" Naturally, if said tough bullet hits bone, it may expand more quickly. But we all know that hitting bone with a toughie is no more of a guarantee than missing bone with a std bullet.

#2.....Said tough bullet (may) not expand at all (or minimally) on a soft tissue hit. Of course, the defenders of the toughie either say this absolutely never happens (repeated evidence to the contrary) or they say "look the critter is dead what more do you want" (THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENT THAT THE STD. BULLET FAN USES WHEN HE SAYS "WHO CARES HOW MUCH WEIGHT IT RETAINED? THE DANG CRITTER IS ON THE GROUND)

Viewpoint #2 states that the dead critter is the goal and that the std. or (non super) bullet does this just fine and often (probably most of the time) faster than the super bullet. It also states that the factors in viewpoint #1 can often be detrimental to quick dispatch of sofer targets. The flaws in this argument seem to me to be........

#1.....Some of these less than super bullets may not penetrate well enough to hit vitals from SOME angles. I think this may be true for lighter bullets of soft construction (Sierras and Speer boattails come to mind) Hornady Interlocks, and of course the Npt come to mind as bullets that probably DON'T have this limitation. The Ballistic tip crates controversy b/c some will say that "I had one blow up on a large rabbit in '79 and I just know that they are just all bad" OTH, others like Stevezapper, (who I suspect has more experience than any 5 of us put together) say they kill stuff real dead, real quick.

#2.....The std bullet or the less than super bullet (like the IL or Pt for example) will not always exit. Probably true, but of course the argument is that the exit does not matter, just whether the critter is on the ground. (SAME ARGUMENT AS ABOVE, "PENCILING DOES NOT MATTER EITHER, JUST THE DEAD CRITTER")

I personally think that the softer targets say under 500 lbs. just don't need a bullet like a TSX or a Failsafe, and the potential loss of an animal from penciling is greater than the potential loss from under penetration or less than "adequate" weight retention. For me, these choices will continue to be the Npt, the Hornie IL and I'm giving the Btip a personal tryout.

OK, I'm done, ya'll get back to fightin' now. I'm going fishing.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JimF

CH & JW,

I joined the same camp as both of you fellas not long after joining the campfire (90%+ retained bullet weights & required exit hole camp). But after a bad experience with a standard X I'm going back to the BT/NP (and maybe the AB) for my hunting bullets. Ty Herring pretty much sealed the deal for me when he suggested in the Barnes Newsletter that folks should aim for the shoulder bones when hunting big game in brushy country so animals don't run off unrecovered. The problem I have with his suggestion is the shoulder shot does not always present itself in brushy country. Alot of times I'll shoot for the heart, lungs or even the spine if the animal is close enough (which it usually is). Apparently Ty receives enough feedback on critters not dropping very quickly from X bullet users if he put that suggestion in his newsletter. IME, a NP will give a quicker kill even on a marginal hit (the outer fringes of the vitals) due to its larger wound channel/dispersing shrapnel characteristics. Hey, I want all the edge I can get when taking down a critter in steep brushy timbered country and using BT/NPs has paid off for me with their larger wound channel/shrapnel destruction behaviors.

I hunt alot of brushy, timbered country around the fringes of Nat'l Parks, Indian reservations and private property. I want the animal to take a dirt nap as soon as possible for those reasons (no explantion needed here, but one can put their rifle down and travel into a Nat'l Park to recover downed game, though a knife is no fun if faced with a wounded bear or mulie!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just a note on weight retention, in the smaller calibers/bullet weights (25cal and down) I would not choose a BT since weight retention would become more of an issue nor would I use a light BT in one of the fast stepping magnums.

MtnHtr

Brad,
Thanks for your follow-up post to Mark. I was beginning to lose my mind with custom '06 as the last 150 or so 168 gr. TSX's were grouping like a friggin' shotgun! All of my practice loads (ie, 168 Amax's) were still .5 inches or less. But, I could not get the TSX's to group at all. Funny this post got started and I am sitting here about to load some Partitions for my '06 and my new 300 WSM!

Whoa! I know the Noz is a good bullet having used them for years but from all I've read here and elsewhere it sounded like the TSXs inherent accuracy might be better.

I'm on my first box of 210s in the .340 and on my second in working up .30-06 loads with the 168s and getting the best accuracy ever in the .340 and very good in the '06 and now you guys are saying you're seeing inconsistencies from lot to lot? I was hoping I was finished bullet shopping for both these rifles; in fact was just starting to work with the 270s in the .375.

What's with Barnes QC then? I guess the best thing is to call them and find out.

MtnHtr, I don't know if I had a bad box of them or not. There's not way to tell at this point in time, they are all gone. But the performance of that lot was predictable.... they expanded FAST in everything I shot them with. Shot one small deer, too, through the top of the neck into the chest cavity. Same results.... everything inside liquid, no exit, found the plastic tip but nothing else.

The Partitions surprise me as being darn near as accurate, if they were seated straight. I know it might be a difficult decision if a controlled-expansion bullet doesn't give good accuracy, but a more fragile bullet does.

I've had good luck, accuracy-wise, with the Barnes X and shot a few coyotes and varmits with them. Have a .338 that will shoot some amazingly small groups with the X, so hey.... why not use it.

Anyway, thanks for the stories and pictures.

Think I will try the Accubonds next.

For what it's worth-
THis is a Nosler Accubond, recovered from the offside of a bull Tahr, taken at 150 yd., from a .280 Rem.
Result was an instantly dead Tahr- I'll take that performance any day. [img][image]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/Geoclark/Accubond.jpg[/img][/image]

I like the Accubond. It's a "sexy" bullet, should fly like heck and penetrate like a Partition to boot but...I am trying them out in my .375 - first - in anticipation of a plains game hunt in Africa and it doesn't like them. So far with H4350, Varget, and Rel 19 it's "no go". Oh, it'd work but 2-2.5" groups are pretty sloppy.

You gotta go with what will shoot, in your rifle. In the case of this .280, it shoots Fed. factory ammo with the 140 gr. Accubond just lights-out.

TRy Winchester 760 it is great powder for the 375 H&H a little under appreciated powder that works great in the 375 H&H

If anyone is interested I have this opened box (47ct) of Barnes XLCs in 210gr, make me an offer I'll let 'em go cheap! PM me.........


MtnHtr

Mark, you can have what I've left of the 168's. The 300 WSM refused to group them. I thought it odd since this rifle seems to shoot everything well so I gave them a whirl in the 30-06. I first shot a group with the old 168 TSX's... they went into one ragged hole for three shots (3/8"). Shot the new lot of 168's next (same componants and die setting)... they went around 1.75". Forget it, life's to short to muck around with this sort of minutia.

Huntr, it's aggravating to have such inconsistency in a bullet. Partition's are a know quantity for me so I'm going to stick with them. My 300 WSM puts the 180 Hornady and 180 Partition into the exact same group... both average around 3/4" and run at 2,950 fps. I'm done "finessing" Bares bullets when I can just load up an Interlock or Nosler and get consistant resuts and proven performance.

Mtn, just tried to call you... got your message on my voicemail. Did a marathon dayhike in the Absaroka's today and just got in (no cell reception there)... I'm bushed! Lots of elk and deer sign as well a bear... was a beautiful day in SW Montana.

MtnHtr �

Like you, when I decided to go to premiums I tried the XLC�s. Performance was mixed, to say the least. My test rifle was my 7mm Mag and the bullet weight was 160g. One coyote went down to a broadside shot at about 80 yards. Although I spent some time looking, I never did find the entrance or exit holes and nary a drop of blood. But the coyote went straight down. Another coyote was hit broadside at the same range. It was running and the XLC took out a section of the spine leaving a goove as large in diameter as my forearm.

Next came a buck antelope, a trial run before I would use the XLC�s on elk. At about 287 yards I put one through a buck that was quartering towards me. Don�t recall if he dropped or not but I recall him standing there with his head down coughing up blood for quite a while. Eventually I decided to put another one in him. This time he went down but kept his head up as if sunning himself. Finally I hiked around a hill to get a closer shot, about 75 yards. The buck got up and tried to walk away but was stopped by a third XLC which hit his heart on a quartering away shot. Upon examination, the first two went through the lungs, no problem with placement, but the wound tracks showed little sign of expansion. The third track showed signs of expansion. At that point I decided ixnay on the X and XLC bullets. That fall I went back to my usual bullet at the time, a 160g Grand Slam. The TSX�s give me excellent accuracy and I hunted elk with the 180g in my .300WM last year, but haven�t fired a shot at game with them. At this point I�m holding out for the MRX�s which I believe will resolve any lingering concerns about reliable expansion.

After trying the North Forks in my .45-70, I went with them in my 7mm Mag, .300 and .308. Can�t get them for the .257 so I went with the 120g A-Frame instead (and also worked up loads for the 120g Partition).

We share common goals, we just choose different tools to achieve them.

JimF �

I will agree no one has a lock on the �ultimate truth�. Some people choose their bullets on cost alone, others by the color of the box, some by advertised velocity, bullet shape, bullet brand, and so on. In the end, however, each person chooses the bullet they think is best for them. Most of the time I think the bullet choice probably makes little difference in the outcome.

Put me in camp #1 (Viewpoint #1 states that the bullet must retain a high percentage of weight (say over 60-70%) and should exit the animal in 95% of circumstances.) with a few caveats.

First, I prefer even higher weight retention. But I would disagree that �Said tough bullet does not always kill quickly, b/c by nature, it will expand more slowly�. True for some bullets, perhaps, not all. The North Forks are designed to expand at relatively low velocities. In the case of the 180g .308� launched from my rifle, the preferred impact velocity as suggested by the manufacturer corresponds to a shot over 600 yards, well beyond anything I would attempt. The functional velocity extends the range out to almost 800 yards. I don�t know about Trophy Bonded or A-Frames, but given the similarities in construction I would not expect them to perform much differently.

Second, while I have never heard of a North Fork, A-Frame or Trophy Bonded failing to expand, I have never claimed �this absolutely never happens (repeated evidence to the contrary)�. If you know of such a case I would be happy to hear about it. Perhaps you are referencing X, XLC and Failsafe?

CH,

Well said, I agree.

Brad,

You are having too much fun, stop killing us!<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

TSX and Failsafe were, I believe, the only two super pentrators that I mentioned, and certainly the TSX/X bullets are the ones with the overwhelming majority of mentions in this discussion.

JimF

Obviously, the bullet/caliber should be matched to the game. A 180 TSX out of a 308 is not the best idea for small deer, while a 140 grain Ballistic Tip out of a 7mm RUM is not the best choice for big bears.

A 180 TSX from the 308 will generally kill a deer with a double lung shot and allow it to be recovered, even if the bullet barely expands. However, the 140 NBT from a 7mm RUM will not likely kill a big bear anytime soon with a shoulder shot.

It is between these extremes that we usually operate, and it is really common sense. To me, the perfect bullet is accurate, makes big wound channels on the selected animal, and fully penetrates.

To be honest, a 168 grain TSX launched at an MV of 2980s fps is too tough of a bullet for your average hog at 200 yds, as I saw last month. The guys watching me said pig turned as I shot, and instead of entering and exiting just behind both shoulders--where I was aiming--the bullet entered just in front of the right ham and exited just behind the left shoulder. This is called a "gut shot". Though it missed the heart/lung area, the bullet did penetrate completely through the stomach--which was crammed full of vegatation.

The entrance hole was caliber sized and the exit hole was maybe 5/8" in diameter. I would have preferred the exit hole to have been 2-3" in diameter. No doubt a 150 grain Accubond, a 165 grain Partition, or a 165 grain Interbond would have been better bullets for that particular shot........

However, the fact that the TSX made it all they way through, even with it's small wound channel, prevented the pig from running off with the others and allowed me a follow-up shot. If I had been shooting say a 150 NBT, the bullet would not have made it out of the stomach and the pig may well have run off.

So I think if I am going to err, I'd rather err slightly on the side of too little expansion than I would too little penetration. If my 30-06 was going to be a dedicated hog gun, then I'd like to use the 165 grain Paritition, but I have never been able to get that bullet to shoot well in any 30-06 or 300 Win I have tried it in.............

Brad, ran into a similar scenario last year with the TSX. Though it was the 160 7MM.

Chuck

Chuck, talking with Mtn Huntr on the phone last night we've both drawn the same conclusion... Barnes bullets are extremely finicky as to seating depth and very quite a bit lot to lot. All bullets vary. Obviously machinery parts get changed and that'll change things but, for instance, the Nosler 180 Partition's I've used in my 06 have always grouped the same from different lots and different years and even if the ogive has a minor variation. For whatever reason I believe cup/lead bullets are more forgiving but the monolithic TSX's are not. I just can't throw money at something that, in the end, may out-penetrate a Partition sightly but doesn't "out-perform" them when considered in the big picture.

I picked up a stack of 165gr bullets yesterday to do a bit of experimenting with. Hoping that I can match POI with an economical bullet and the Partition.

How hard is it to come up with Nosler seconds down there?

Chuck

Another small plus of Nosler over the Barnes is barrel cleaning. One squirt of WipeOut, let it sit 8hrs or overnight and she is squeakyass clean if Nosler bullets were used. With the Barnes TSX, I found it took longer and a couple more squirt sessions of WipeOut on average to clean up most barrels. YMMV

MtnHtr

Chuck, I just got a bag of 500 180 NP's... with shipping it worked out to $12.90 US per fifty! Those and the 180 Hornady go into the same POI in my rifle. This isn't the case with my 30-06 but I never fiddled much with it trying to find a "practice" bullet/premium bullet combo.

Try the shooter's pro shop off the nosler web site... they have all the seconds from the Nolser factory.

Don't like TSX because of quality,yet buy secounds to replace them with??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Nosler seconds shoot better and are more consistent than the more expensive TSX. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Chuck

Not in my experience, not by a long shot............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JWP, my experience is the exact opposite of yours... Nosler "seconds" are cosmetic blemishes only. In fact, when you look them over you'd be hard pressed to understand them being called "seconds."

I have never had a Partion out shoot a TSX.............

Just to clarify something. Are you saying that the Partition is an innacurate bullet?

Chuck

I have... in every rifle I've loaded both in.

I said that I have never had one out group a TSX. The Accubond is in my experience more accurate bullet than the Partion

That's not what you were saying just a month or so ago................... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I NEVER said any such thing... WTF do you get that?

My 338 WM wouldn't shoot the TSX's, the last 300 WSM wouldn't and the 30-06 only would after finding the exact right seating depth but only with 168's not 180's (which it wouldn't shoot). When I hit excellent accuracy with the 168 I was happy until the lot changed and accuracy went to hell.

The TSX's, IME, are far ahead of the old X's performance wise... no doubt. In my rifle's they've been finicky to say the least.

Brad-

I had assumed the opposite: that because the TSXs were of homogenous makeup there would be less problem with concentricity than say a cup and core bullet like the Noz so while the Noz has never given me a tough time accuracy-wise the TSXs would have an edge.

That, plus JB's experience of them shooting quite well in about everything he's tried them in and your and Huntr's initial glowing reports made me think they might be the cat's meow.

I think I'll try to call Barnes tomorrow and see what they'll say. So far as I've indicated with the few boxes I've bought my '06 and .340 like them well.

GN, I was thrilled with the TSX's after monkeying with them to the point where they grouped in my 30-06... who wouldn't like dropping down in bullet weight and getting the sort of penetration and performance they deliver? Once I found their "sweet spot" in my 30-06 they grouped like a varmint bullet. I've only used them on two animals, an elk and antelope, and have wathced them used on another five animals. They work, expanding well on the antelope and penetrating and expanding on the elk.

However, if I have to monkey around trying to get them to group in the same rifle everytime I buy a box from a different lot, you can count me out... especially at their cost! I seriously dislike handloading anyway (paint drying) and have gotten to the point where if I have to fart around with that sort of minutia I'll go to something else.

Unlike Nosler, I really doubt Barnes has the QC to produce a consistant product and I do tend to think their homogenous nature might be creating problems, pressure grooves or no.

I've self-exiled myself to two BG rifles (300 WSM / 30-06) as I've lost interest in rifle gack and the attendant gymnastic's... I'll load 180 Partition's and Hornady's in both using one powder (H4350) and just concentrate on what I really like... elk hunting!

Brad you posted this on 05-17-06:

"Casey, JWP and I use a similar charge as he said. Mine is 58.5 gr's H4350 for 2,850 from the 21" bbl. I use a Fed 210 primer and WW brass and seat .050" off the lands. Ridiculously accurate on the 300 yard target."

Would you like me to go back and cut and paste more of your old post or does this jog your memory?

Before JJHack went to Africa you were extrolling the virtues of the TSX including it's accuracy to JJ or have you forgotten that also?

Or this posted by Brad on 05-08-06:

"Thinking of a good practice bullet used in conjunction with the 168 TSX. Is the 168 A-Max an accurate bullet in your experience? I've always used the 165 B-Tip which has always been accurate in any 30 I've driven them in but the A-Max's are a touch cheaper.

How are they on thin-skinned game?

Also, what's up with the 1-12" twist blather on the box? Trying to give them a "match" cache?

Thanks... "

Remember ?? Are is your memory failing?
I can copy and paste more if nessecary............

Brad you posted this on 04-10-06


"JJ, interesting you'd bring up the 168 TSX's 200+ yard accuracy. In my 30-06 they shoot bitty groups too. My 200 yard groups are as small as my 100 yard groups (could be a paralax thing) and 300 yards to 400 are sub moa as well. I have real confidence in the 168/30-06 combo. I'm also convinced they open better than the origianl X's but don't have the skinny why that should be."


Remember??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

jw,

What is your point in all this? Don't fret yet another TSX deserter............ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just funning with ya, ease up!

MtnHtr

Brad said "I NEVER said any such thing... WTF do you get that?"
when I said that a few months ago that he was not calling the TSX inaccurate,so I just wanted him to know that I remmember his old post where he called the TSX quite accurate

The TSX was an accurate bullet for Brad, until he changed lots.............that dang Barnes traitor! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

Brad also posted this on 4-07-06

"Jim, I'll be genuinely interested to hear your impressions. My 21" bbl'd 30-06 pushes the 168 at 2,850 and they're wicked accurate out to 400 yards (as far as I've shot them). So far I've only taken one elk and one antelope with them but they worked equally well on both, the elk at fifty yards and the antelope at 225."
Maybe he will remember touting thier accuracy?
I have had no problems with different lots of TSX shooting for me. Maybe he has different lots of powder or primers who knows?
I realy don't care which bullet he shoots or likes,I had a problem when he acted like I had made up my comment about him not saying that they were innacurate a while back......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

jw,

No sweat. Can I buy you a beer? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MtnHtr

Your comment:

Brad's comment:

You're completely out of context here.

Chuck

JWP, are you utterly stupid?

I SAID MANY TIMES the one lot I tried shot "varmint sized groups" in my 30-06 only... when I swithced lots recently, groups opened up to over 1.5"... I MENTIONED ONLY THIS RIFLE NOT THE OTHER RIFLES THAT REFUSED TO SHOOT THEM.

Grow up...

That's it Brad when you are wrong call somebody stupid that ought to prove your point............

Hey guys this is no issue to get in a lather over. I can understand the lot thing and if Barnes QC is no better than to have continual ogive changes I quit too. I'm just surprised that as long as they've been in the bullet business that this could happen.

The Nosler is never a bad choice; In the TSX I was just hoping we had a premium that shot like a match bullet.

Brad, your comment about handloading made me smile also. It is not my favorite chore either which is why I was a bit chagrined when reading your and Huntrs latest TSX woes.

JWP, the only thing I can tell from your posts is you're only capable of the most basic comprehension... in my book that means stupid.

Mtn, God forbid someone has such low self esteem that my abandoning TSX's causes him to go go into a tail spin... good grief. Apparently the Barnes Cult Members are gonna drink the Koolaid if anyone else bails on their doctrine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Who needs to grow up??

Now I understsand what Big Stick meant when he said "the only thing that me and Brad agree on is Brad's clueless"
You aren't even capable of any comprehesion apparently,so what do you call you??

No it was your original (and in perfect form) condesending post as if you had never extrolled the accuracy virtues of the TSX. Apparently your comprehension and memeory is lacking and your beligerence is abounding.............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Good News, agreed about "lather"... people that ride a hobby horse and read things into a post that are not there because it contradict's their preconception's sorta piss me off really... and it's just too pretty a day and the stakes are too low to allow someone like JWP in my head for a nano-second.

Back to the topic at hand, I too was hoping for the TSX to work... I initially had 100 qty of the same lot which took about a year to burn through. It's aggravating because they shot so well and I had worked out trajectories in the 30-06 to 450 yards which is as far as I'd use the 168 TSX at 06 velocities.

Regardless, a 180 in the 30-06 is a match made in heaven... the difference in drop is inconsequential and the 300 WSM is my primary rifle anyway.

Many no doubt will find bliss with the TSX but I've pretty well resigned from the Rifle Tinkering Club so I prefer something that's simpler to work with, year in and year out. Nosler products meet my handloading/hunting criteria perfectly...

JWP, concerning the TSX vs. the Partition, I'm curious as to your thoughts and observations comparitively on big game?

Which do you prefer and why?

Chuck

This if too funny!!!
Bullet proof elk...And now this... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You got caught........
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chuck, I used the Nosler Partion for my go to big game bullet from 1980 until a couple years ago when I tried the TSX. I still have some Partions loaded that are just setting around since I tried the TSX. The Partion is still a good big game bullet I am not saying that it is not. I have found the TSX to be the most consistently accurate big game hunting bullet that I have ever shot and that is not just with my reloads,but also with Federal and Superior Ammo factory loads.
I am of the mind set that penetration is a great thing and I do not see how you can have too much of it and the TSX can stand up to any shot angle and will not be destroyed by excessive up close velocity. The terminal performance on about 20 head of game that myself or hunting partners have taken so far with the TSX has been outstanding and we have noticed better penetration with the TSX over the Partion. I also tried the Accbond when it came out (after talking to Nosler and thier rep told me that the Accubond would out pentrate the Partion, which is not true). I still shoot the Accubond as a practice load at times since it shoots to the same point of aim as the 180 TSX in my 300 Win and is nearly the same velocity with the same powder charge in my rifle.
Again I am not saying that the Partion is not a good bullet, because it is a good bullet. I feel that since the TSX kills Deer, Antelope and such very effectively in my experience and The TSX is an extremely good good chioce as the animal size increases so one bullet for all of my hunting at this point is the TSX

So the TSX will out penetrate the partition. Agreed. The TSX is accurate. Agreed. The partition is a grand bullet. Agreed.

What is the arguement about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chuck

Bart, since you're dumber than a bag of hammers and your family tree obviously doesn't do a lot of branching I wouldn't expect you to be able to read through a few posts and understand what's actually being said (apparently like JWP).

I'm curious about bullet proof elk... never recalled saying anything like that. Where'd you come up with that one? I've always said I'd be happy with a 270 on elk. Hmmm... maybe you're just a red-necked mud-raker with a fifth grade education.

BTW, let's see the elk you've killed Bart... I'm sure your takes of big game are as impressive as the game you talk...

nah... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gett'n funnier <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Someone knows everything...He thinks...
Bart

Brad,
You are the biggest a$$hole on this site!
You know dick about anything...
You got caught in your own pettyness and got called out....
Am I wrong on anything yet?
You are a legend in your own mind.....
Talk more about my family tree...Dickhead....
Bart

LOL, awesome response!

I'm floored...

and mortally wounded <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Shows lots of intelegnce, with all of the name calling.. Is the internet the only place that you can talk so condesending, probable can't do it face to face, so does the key board name calling make you fell like A MAN

You edited this post...Didn't you Brad?
Why is it not marked as edited?

JWP, I'd do it to your face... really.

Here's the crux:

1) I said my 30-06 shot 168 TSX's from one lot of 100 beautifully.

2) I said the next lot wouldn't group at all.

3) I said the NP in my guns shot as well or better than TSX's (which is true... in all but the 30-06 they shoot far better with the exception of one lot of TSX's).

4) You disputed the claim by dredging up a couple of post where I'd praised the TSX.

5) What you (and the other half of your family tree Bart) are too thick to understand was that from the time I lavished praise on the 168 TSX in my 30-06 til now is I tried a different lot which won't group at all...

That's the crux of it and what your little mind apparently can't wrap around.

Amazing that you can navigate the adult world in any fashion.

You work for Barnes?

Too damn funny...

What do you want to know about elk Brad?
My family is part owner of a large ranch in SW Texas that has about 100 elk on it.... Low fenced ranch too...
What do you want to know about elk dickhead?
You are pathetic Brad....I'll guarantee that you don't have the balls to talk to me face to face the way that you post here...

[Quote] by Brad
JWP, I'd do it to your face... really.

Again it shows your rude and abrasive manner.. Does it make you feel MANLY

Nah, felt that way long before I was exposed to you and your cousin Bart... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Quote] by Brad

5) What you (and the other half of your family tree Bart) are too thick to understand was that from the time I lavished praise on the 168 TSX in my 30-06 til now is I tried a different lot which won't group at all... [Quote]

I ve tried different lot as well as factory loads and I have not experienced any accuracy problems.................. Maybe you have bad shooting days...... seems like you are have a bad hair day now............ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

I saw the picture that you posted............. Manly I don't think so.............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Hey Bart, back to the topic...

Where'd I ever say elk were bullet proof?

You didn't answer that...

Would a guy that believed that advocate a 270 on elk?

Let's see pic's of the bulls you've killed.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Do you still have a comprehension problem or can you see how, jumping into a fight that's not yours without reading, you sided with a bloke that apparently can't comprehend written english...?

That pic was probably his big brother....

Want to change the subject since you're going down with the ship........... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

I can certainly understand english enough to know double talk when I hear it ................. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

LOL, no that was mile 12 of a 17 mile day hike yesterday.

Even though I'm 45 and MANLY I do feel it today...

JWP, you think you could have kept up?

Nah... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So JWP, what part of two different lots shooting differently can't your pea brain grasp... I REALLY want to know!

Hell I'm 55 and I would not have a problem keeping up with you....................... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Still waiting...

[Quote] by Brad

Even though I'm 45 and MANLY I do feel it today... [Quote]

Say it enough and maybe you will believe it.............
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Still waiting... again

What's your problem?

If you would have stated this in your original reply instead of your beligerent, condesending reply we not would be here now but you just showed your limited use of adgejetives............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[/quote]What's your problem? [/quote]

Chuck it's a long, sad tale... Bart just doesn't like me and it hurts my feelings <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

jwp,
How long do you think that this pathetic a$$hole will keep going?
My money says that he don't know when to stop...

LOL!!!!!!!

You just now figured out my point even though I've repeated it ad-infinitum... this is freaking hilarious!

You are probable right,but I can keep up............ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What's yours?

Yea I figured out your point you are a know it all that can't admitt when he is wrong............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Hey Bart, pony up the pic's... I want to see.

Also, where's the post about bullet proof elk?

Wanna see that one too!

Maroon...

[Quote] by Brad

Maroon... [Quote]

The only thing that you are good at is name calling I asume that you take pride in it............. I guess a man has to know his limitations and you seem to know yours............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I'm suprised that you don't remember...
You claimed that an elk could really take being shot...
I called you on it and you actually took the time to respond and backpedal a bit...Are you sure that you don't remember? You really sounded like an ass....Well maybe not...You always sound like that...
As for my elk pictures...GFY!!! Get it? No let me be more clear...
GO...F*ck...Yourself...Now do you get it?
You have insulted me and my family and you would be snoring if you talked to me like that to my face...You are pathetic...

Well, I'm a little late but the doc prescribed these for ya'all:


MtnHtr

For Pete's sake...this thread is supposed to be about bullets. Quit wasting bandwidth and time for the rest of us! Haven't you guys heard of using private messages when that is what you're doing?