Gentlemen:
I could use a little advise on a very idiosyncratic question which, arguably, is not worthy of the wealth of knowledge available here. But I digress...
I have a Sauer 202 synthetic lightweight rifle---everything but the barrel. As many of you probably know, barrels for this rifle interchange. I can't decide whether to order a .270 Win or .30-06 barrel for my rifle. It will be used for Mule Deer, Elk and sheep (someday, I hope). The Sauer 202 Syn is a light rifle. Factory barrels from Sig Arms are fluted and about 22" long.
As between the '06 and .270 Win., the obvious difference is the capability of flatter trajectory with the .270 (shooting a 130 grain bullet) versus the capacity to throw a much bigger projectile with the '06. I try to adhere to the KISS principle, and have decided to load a 150 grain premium bullet if I go with .270 Win. and a premium 165 grainer if I choose the '06. (I am not interested in messing around testing a fistful of different bullets and loads). I am generalizing here, but ballistic coefficients as between the two calibers with the above-referenced bullet weights are about equal.
Velocity as between these choices is also basically a wash. If I am lucky, I might get 3000 fps with a 150 grain pill in .270 Win. and if similarly lucky, I might get 3000 fps with a 165 grain pill in the '06.
Any advise or experience to help me choose as between these two cartridges for my intended application would be appreciated. The rifle will be primarily a mule deer gun, but I'd like for it to be an efficient and adequate elk killer as well. And if that sheep hunt dream comes true, I don't want to have to buy another rifle (or barrel)!
Thanks,
Jordan <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
You have quite the pickle!! I'll vote for the 270, I use a 140gn TSX and get 3100fps from a 22" factory Win pipe, accuracy is outstanding (as good as .76 for 3 shots @ 200yds). I am a bit soured on the 30-06 for a very trivial, non-performance, non-scientific reason. When I was a kid (say Jr. High through early college) every person I knew that used a 30-06 was a slob hunter. Part of the "take it to the store and have it bore-sighted for season" crowd, gut-shooters, carriers of multiple extra clips, no adjustment caps on their scopes, grind the barrel into the dirt/mud/snow on the truck floor types. So I have a Freudian childhood aversion to the 30-06 despite outstanding results by others worldwide for more than 3x my lifetime, and on paper looking like the best single N/A sporting cartrige ever. I just can't buy/use one because of what happened during my childhood.
I'd go .270 with 150gr Partitions and never look back...I'm a diagnosed .270 fanatic though<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Mike
Make mine the ought-six.
It likes the 22" barrel, I like the heavier bullets for elk (I'd jump to 180s), and for versatility, the ought-six is hard to beat.
Rick
Twer it me I would no doubt go with an 06 Improved.......that's what I call the good old 270.
Mark D
.30-06
It always wins the "one gun" debate for good cause. The .270 ain't that much flatter for the first 300 yds. If you ever do draw a sheep tag, the '06 will work for that too, but it's also a chance to treat yourself to a new rifle--.257 Weatherby?
Happy Birthday Waders<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Mike
I'd go 06,,,,had a 270 for years and I can now do about anything the 270 could with my smaller less noise and less kick 7mm-08s,,,,cant say the same thing about the 06,,,with heavier bullets the 06 has alot more umph than the 270.
Don't think you can go wrong with either rounds.Perfer the 06 myself.It's ability to handle a heavier slug is what does it for me.
The 30-06 with one bullet weight, a well made 165 grainer, will do all of your killing chores well...
Take out a coin and say to yourself that 'heads' means 270 Win., and 'tails' means 30-06.
Keep flipping 'til you land 'heads'......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
AD
I'd go with the '06 even though It would'nt be my first choice. Too bad .280 wasn't available.
Good one, allenday! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Get both! I have one of each. Is there another type of rifle out there you really like and want? I have a 1968 Ruger #1 in 30/06. It's not just a tool to me, but a work of art - the walnut, the craftsmanship, fit, everything. My .270 is a left-handed bolt with a laminated stock and stainless metal - more like a tool. When the weather turns bad or I absolutely know I'm going to be squeezing through palo verde and cat claw brush - this one gets the call. But for now, if I was looking at that particular set-up you have and elk were an occassional thing, I would say it would be hard not to choose a .270.
The two main differences are the ability to use a heavier bullet, and the better blood trails should you need one.
The .308 diameter is the dividing line between a blood trail and no blood or very little blood when hunting bigger game. Don't just look at the .031 difference in diameter, look at the percentage of area the .308 diameter increase gets you. It's much bigger, and provides a much better blood trail. Just looking at the numbers I think it's close to 20 or 25% more surface area, that is significant!
This is an important difference from the 270 to the .308 diameter. Having to find lost and wounded game for my living maybe this is more important to me then to the average guy? However I've always been of the mind that collecting the game is a big part of hunting trip, not just killing it.
If you have not yet read the post I put up regarding the performance of the 30/06 using the 165 grain bullet in Africa this year, it's worth the time to search out and re-read. 51 animals were killed with that combination by 6 different hunters, most of these were much bigger then deer sized game too. The recoil is so easily managed that lady hunters and kids use my rifle every year without complaint.
Good question, lots of opinions, find and read that post about the 30/06 and the 165 grain bullets and it should clear up most of your concerns over this decision.
Here is the post I was refering you to, it was easy to find [color:"blue"]
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...part=1&vc=1 [/color]
If elk's in the mix you gotta go with the '06. If you're going to stick to deer and sheep then the .270 is a good choice.
The best factory .270 load available today, IMHO, is the Federal 140g Trophy Bonded High Energy load @ 3100fps. This load would do for elk well beyond any range at which I would take a shot.
Don't own either, but I'd grab the .270 and never look back.
In a really light rifle, most people are not going to enjoy shooting the heavier loads which give the .30-06 an edge on big game. Since a barrel costs $600, it is cheaper to buy a second rifle in the caliber you least use. That is why I suggest the .270 Win for this rifle.
I have a Sauer with wood and synthetic stocks and 308 and .270 barrels (not light ones). The .308 barrel has been on there now for 3 years. If I put on the .270 barrel, it would probably stay on there a while, too. These rifles really shoot.
Sign me up for the 270 side please <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
One more vote for the 06!
My coin has tails on both sides.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Don
Since I've owned half a dozen 270's over the last 30 years I'd say I have voted with my dollars a few times....picked up another new yesterday. I am of the belief that if I need a 30 caliber something it is going to be faster than a 30'06...but then I have never killed an elk yet either ...but shoot a 300Winnie in 180's almost as much as I shoot my 270's. For me it is a "this bullet weight range is for this size critter" and so on instead of a one size fits all...and the guns used are nuthin' but tools to get the job done. I have spent less on each tool but like the options of more tools to choose from for the job at hand. JMHO
Ron
There's a reason the '06 has been around for a 100 years - It gets the job done. Put me down on the '06 list.
I'm a 270 fan but if elk are on the menu I would chose the '06.
I too vote for the 30-06. My 24" barreled 30-06 shoots the 168 TSX at 2980 fps. There are seveal others here who have posted similar velocities with 165-168 grain bullets. The difference in trajectory between that at a .270 130 grainer at 3100 fps is not that significant, even to 400 yds. However, the hole the 30-06 makes is bigger.
Take elk out then my vote would change to 270, though the 270 has worked on lek for a lot fo years.
A guy with a .270 has a better chance of buying another rifle than a guy with an .06....not that there's anything wrong with that.
I'd have to go with a 30-06 myself. THe heavier bullets in the '06 just gives you an edge on less than ideal shots. I've never seen the point in having a 270 unless you already have a 30-06.
I admit that I'm biased and yes, I read too much of Jack O'Conner when I was a kid. A .30-06 would do you well but I vote for the .270 with 150 gr. Partitions. I get close to 2940 fps with my handloads and it's the rifle I use for sheep, caribou, etc. Yes, I'd even use it on moose unless I had a good chance of running into a grizzly up close. My attitude is that if I need more rifle than a .270, I'll go to my .338 Mag - which I do. In short - .270 Win. Just my opinion for what it's worth. Bear in Fairbanks
One can never go wrong with a 30-06.
I've used both on deer and elk, it's a coin flip.
I dont know about 3,000fps with a 150gr 270, or the same with a 165gr out of a 22" tube, those loads would be hot for sure. That is unless you were shooting Federal's high energy, or Hornadys lite-mag loads.
Neither cartridge has any flies on it but i would go with the 30-06, the standard that every other round is judged against. If you wanted a high velocity 06 round you could load a 130gr Barnes TSX in the 06 and it would kill deer and antelope like lightning. On the other end you could load a 200gr partiton of 180gr TSX and kill any big game out there, to me the choice is simple.
Probably the greatest fan of the .270 was Jack O'Connor. Yet, when he was interviewed by, IIRC, Jim Carmichel, he was asked this question. "If you were restricted to hunting in North America to one cartridge, what would it be. Jack instantly said, "The 30-06!" Now if the .270's greatest fan bypassed it in favor of the 30-06, what is the mesage here?
The late Col. Townsend Whelen was also a fan of the .270, but he also said, "The 30-06 is never a mistake."
There must be a reason why the 06 has hung around for 100 years. Granted, being our military round for all the years that out military used it, from WW-1 to the Korean War and probably a bit after that as well certainly helped keep it alive. Cheap milsurp ammo didn't hurt either. I remember buying a bunch of WW-2 milsurp 1942 and 1943 issue for $.02 a round. Eight hundred and fifty rounds to be exact. I'm still using some of the brass from that buy which occurred in 1965.
I have rifles in both the .270 and 30-06, and in fact have the .270s set up for my deer hunt this year. I haven't decided whether to use my .300 or .338 Win. mags for elk yet this year, but the 30-06 will be there for the back up for what ever I do decide on.
Like the late Jack O'Connor, if forced to pick on one rifle for everything, it would be my 30-06. I imagine that answers the question on what to choose.
Paul B.
Primarily a mule deer gun = .270 Winchester in my book. Since others have mentioned Jack O'Connor, I will too, both quotes out of "The Hunting Rifle":
On deer hunting in Sonora and Arizona:
"It was my feeling that because of the higher velocity and flatter trajectory, the .270 with 130 and 120-grain bullets was a bit easier to hit with and that it gave me a somewhat higher percentage of instantaneous kills than did the .30/06 with 150 or 180-grain bullets" -Jack O'Connor
On Killing power:
"I have shot a great many animals that weigh between 400 and 700 pounds - elk, caribou, sable antelope, roan antelope, zebras, greater kudu, and grizzly bears, and if there is any difference on such animals in killing power between the 130 and 150-grain .270 bullets and the 180-grain .30/06 bullet, I have been unable to detect it" - Jack O'Connor
I bet part of the reason that Jack didn't find that much difference between the two rounds was that he "got" bullet performance early on (a paraphrase of something Mule Deer mentioned). In the .270, he liked Nosler Partitions, and from what I can tell, used them almost exclusively later in his career. In the .30-06, he liked the 180 gr Remington Core-Loct, which he said would shoot clear through Grizzly Bears. I have seen other gun writers complain about .270 performance on heavy game with regular 130 gr bullets and go on to say how much better an 06 or medium bore would have been with heavier bullets. I doubt they would have had any issues if they used tough 130 gr .270 bullets or even stepped up to 150s at their lower velocity.
In all fairness, Jack did state somewhere else that the .30-06 with 220 grain bullets was something that the .270 couldn't match on really big game. However, I don't think he ever had much use for the heaviest of bullet weights in the .30-06 as when he was hunting game that dictated it, he went to a .375 H&H. His wife, on the other hand, used the .30-06 with 220 grain bullets to good effect, at least on 1 elephant. That in my mind is where the .30-06 pulls ahead of the .270. When you are after truly big game and don't have anything better. For mostly deer hunting, I think the .270 is better. For the occassional Elk, I think the .270 is about on par. For the one rifle to do everything you can ask a rifle to do on big game, but maybe not be ideal for anything, the .30-06 beats the .270 and just about anything else.
-Lou
It boils down to your primary expected use for this light rifle.
If it is really sheep, goats, mule deer and antelope, then I would put on a .270 tube.
If is mainly mule deer, elk, and bears, I would put on a .30-06 tube, although recoil will be less fun with 180 and 200-gr bullets.
Rob;
Flip a coin, or go with what your heart says, 'cause either will do anything you'd hope it would in the field, and the only difference will be semantics as far as the game is concerned.
[color:"brown"]What VA said... except that ya gotta remember that the .30/06 can use considerably heavier bullets if the needs requires 'em... and that the .270 tends to shoot a wee-bit flatter than the .30/06, but not enough to be a factor in most cases.
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
The .30-06 is a much better cartridge in every respect.
30-06 Sure the 270 might be able to do it but the '06 does the big ones better.
You could always split the dif and go 280
I think exactly 270 angels can dance on the head of this pin.
30-Gov't 06
180 TSX @ 2800 fps
Not too much kick.........very much a KILLER.
Accurate as far as you can see................... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I've taken a lot of game with both calibers and like both. However, if you are talking "all around rifle" the 30-06 wins hands down. The range of bullet weights far exceeds the .270. How much that really means has been the subject of debate for decades.
Of course the .30-06 beats all its derivative cartridges in versatility.
The question was specifically about which one for a lightweight Sauer 202 sheep, goat and deer rifle, with maybe an elk in the future.
IMO (and probably lots of other people's too), there really is not much actual, measurable difference to deliberate about when choosing between the .270 Winchester and .30-06. Pretty much it comes down to you can use 200-220 gr bullets in an '06 but not in the .270. Also, there are some esoteric ballistic differences that are so slight as to be inconsequential. I guess if I was hunting big toothy game, I'd want the biggest bullets. Whether that matters or not I don't know. So for me it comes down to which one you "like" more. It's more about irrational and hard to pin down gut feelings than any actual difference in performance. Most men do not feel comfortable making a choice on this basis. So, we search for any minute difference and exagerate it to make our choice seem more "rational."
Some people think the .270 has "magical qualities." That's as good a reason to pick it over the .30-06 as any I suppose.
yup, a 280AI would be perfect!
woofer
This is a trick question since it is a switch barrel rifle. You must get both. As for the caliber question I have one .270 that shoots 130 grain bullets as more than that would be redundant. I do have four 30-06's though and the bullet selection runs from 110 to 220 grains. I prefer the 165's as an all around bullet weight for all game. The trajectory is the same as a 150 but the energy is the same as the 180 (give or take a smidge).
I vote for a 270 with a 140 grain TSX or 150 grain partition. Of course, I own 3 270's and no 30-06's!
You can count the votes on both sides, and see that there is no clear winner. Both calibers have their fans, and with good reason. In almost every case, I would slightly prefer the 30-06. However, this is a lightweight rifle. You might enjoy a 270, just because it has less recoil.
I think that bullet construction makes more difference than caliber in this case.
Thanks to everyone for the very useful information. You have helped me to clarify my thinking. Considering the very light weight of this rifle and the fact that its primary use will be deer sized game, I have opted to go with the .270 Win.
Thanks again for the advise.
Jordan
I vote 270
But I am prejudice having two 6X6 bulls on mine both dropped with one shot from 250-300 yards. with 150grain nosler partition.
I just got more confident with the 270, it seemed to have a tighter pattern all the time.
I think you made a good choice here(not that my opinion would matter anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). Fact is I don't think there is a bad choice between the two. I just went through a similar decision and I have had my initial opinion reinforced that you can't go wrong either way. Both are excellent cartridges and you should pick the one that you feel most comfortable about. While I love the '06, I actually solved this dilemma for myself with a .280 AI which is in progress. Just had to be differnent I guess. I don't think it will make any noticeable difference in the field and any would get the job done with the right bullet and fired by a good marksman (both of these are more important than .270 vs. .30-06). Good choice and good luck!
Don't worry about trying to get maximum velocity. 100 fps is insignificant. Try some el cheapo factory loads like the Remington CoreLokt 150s in SPT and RN, Hornady 140s, and the Federal Fusion, then play with some handloads after you find what it likes off the shelf in 130, 140 and 150.
I have three 270s, and one 30.06. BUT, YOU MENTIONED ELK, so I'd advise going with the 30.06. (But the 270 is my favorite caliber and I personally wouldn't hesitate to use one on a big bull).
I'd use the 30 cal. 168 Barnes TSX as I have tons of experience with that load, and it kills just fine. Make it a 150 Aframe, Partition, or TSX for the 270 if you go that route.
OOPS, didn't read your last post before I replied.....270 wins, that's good. The occasional elk will fall to this caliber no problem.
Rob;
If you find something on the smaller-than-brown-bear side of critters that the .270 won't adequately (i.e. before it gets away or gets you) take, please let us know.
Feel free to take a lifetime looking... as it might be required.
General advice on calibers or rifles: Think about which one you'd prefer to own and buy that one. That's cheaper than buying something for logical reasons that you'll later regret and have to replace, particularly since it doesn't matter much either way.
Jaywalker